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meppa
Kumovi
The G0dfathers
Posted - 2006.11.16 17:09:00 - [691]
 

Edited by: meppa on 16/11/2006 17:34:11
Now with 50% cap increase in sisi (along with 50% longer cap recharge time) abaddon can sustain tachyon fire for 1 minute 30 seconds (5/4 cap skills, 4 on gunnery cap usage skill), tested also with 2 cap relays and got whopping 3 second increase in time, so 1 minute 34 seconds while losing 20km on optimal range. Apparently cap batteries or boosters might be more helpful, but isn't it bit harsh that long range bs needs cap booster just to sustain gunfire for more then 90 seconds?

And yes i truly was just running 2 sensorbooster II, 2 tracking computer II and 8 tachyonbeam II with aurora L.

Some update. Changed one tracking comp to heavy cap injector, had to ditch med repper for power diagnostics. This time i managed to shoot long enough, but not long enough to deal enough damage to bring down a domi that wasn't running reppers, but had 1600mm plate. Also i was burning those cap booster charges so fast that i need an industrial to follow me in fleet ops.

I would like to say at this point that abaddon is totally pointless ship even with capasitor changes.

Mareia
Posted - 2006.11.16 17:59:00 - [692]
 

-Rumor-
PS
Tux said he was thinking about changing abaddons bonus to damage rather than ROF. Make him do this ASAP.
-Rumor-

If this is true, I will be very happy with the abbadon and a very happy amarr BS skill V Pilot

meppa
Kumovi
The G0dfathers
Posted - 2006.11.16 18:02:00 - [693]
 

Rof to damage won't help much, that means 25% slower cap drain, so basically 25% longer combat time, brings it up to to around 2 minutes.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.16 18:22:00 - [694]
 

Edited by: Ath Amon on 16/11/2006 18:23:16
as long as rails is so superior to other turrets you will need 3 ship bonuses to compete with rokhs...

don't think this is going to happen

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.16 18:43:00 - [695]
 

Originally by: Mareia
-Rumor-
PS
Tux said he was thinking about changing abaddons bonus to damage rather than ROF. Make him do this ASAP.
-Rumor-

If this is true, I will be very happy with the abbadon and a very happy amarr BS skill V Pilot


just changing the bonus from rof to damage would be a start but wouldnt really fix the deeper problems this ship has. it will still be a 3rd amarrian fleet bs. maybe it will be better than the other 2 but it will not add anything new unless some real changes are made.


Taketa De
Gallente
Seneca Federation
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.16 19:01:00 - [696]
 

Personally I think cap increaes is the wrong way to handle this. Making cap weapons use less cap instead would be a solution will less side effects and so less balancing issues.

Mareia
Posted - 2006.11.16 19:06:00 - [697]
 

Edited by: Mareia on 16/11/2006 19:09:53
With my current skills, Cap recharge rigs and my standard Fitting I can tune a Abbadon to:

9.180 Cap at 385 seconds Recharge time = 23,84 Cap/s or 59,6 cap/s peak recharge

Thats better than my apoc on Tranquility. So with changed rof= Damage Bonus the Abbadon get (BS lvl V)+25 % Armor Resists, +25% Damage at the cost of 50% more Cap use of the weapon turrets.

I think i can live with that.

P.S.: My fitting: 8 MP II, 100 MN AB II, 3 eutectic cap recharger, 2 LAR II, DC, CPR , 3 active Hardener.

PPS: With lowered cap use on lasers they would be a viable weapon for the other races, something that is clearly NOT wanted. And since the cap of amarrian ships is bigger than the other a %ual increase favored amarr over the other ships.

Drake Mezcal
Quam Singulari
Session Changes
Posted - 2006.11.16 19:10:00 - [698]
 

Still waiting to scrap the Shield Boost bonus on the maelstrom,

ANything apart form that.....yuck

meppa
Kumovi
The G0dfathers
Posted - 2006.11.16 19:12:00 - [699]
 

Well, there is just one slight but. You wasted 3 mid slots to cap chargers and all your rigging slots to cap rigs. And still will most likely shoot your cap dry with high damage crystal without repping. Great ship ;)

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2006.11.16 20:25:00 - [700]
 

Edited by: murder one on 16/11/2006 20:28:05
Originally by: Zixxa
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Zixxa
I hope you are right, because I am going to train rails,


Ahh
Okay, I guess that explains your total lack of any kind of clue expressed in pretty much every post you made. Never ever fired a gun in EVE yet, have we? Optimal, falloff, tracking, what IS that?!?!
And of course DPS is the one and only meaningful variable in combat ever...

Rolling Eyes



I am *** missile ALT. Pure missile ALT. Pure Caldari.
And FYI, dude, dps is only meaningful variable in combat only for you. For fleet battle counted not dps, but alpha-strike. And with zero alpha-strike(missiles) I am zero in fleet battle. But with smaller gangs we are going for dps. And in terms of dps missile boats suck again.


Do what everyone else does and train something new.

Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2006.11.16 21:44:00 - [701]
 

Originally by: Tuxford
See the reason for increasing capacitor capacity and capacitor recharge time is very simple. Lets say on TQ today your fighting in ship A against ship B. You can kill ship B in 2 minutes and your cap runs out in 2.5 minutes.

After the patch, lets say we do nothing to capacitor. Ship B will survive for 3 minutes but, unfortunately Ship A will run out of cap in 2.5 minutes.

Lets say we increase the cap by 50% and recharge time by 50%. The max cap/sec stays the same. Ship B survives for 3 minutes and ship A runs out of cap in 3.75 minutes.

There is really no good reason for boosting max cap/sec. Lowering the cap use of guns and other modules isn't really justified either. If you can run your modules now long enough to get the kill you can do so as well after the patch.



That is an over simplified example. The problem is that ship A (cap using weapons) runs out of cap before ship B (with non-cap using weapons). If you do an across the board cap increase and recharge time increase, then you have just boosted all the ship Bs. They now have more cap to use for tanks and other modules that ship A will not have, their increase is all going to the guns.

Please dont do this. A more targeted way is simply to increase the controlled bursts from 5% to 10%. Those that dont use cap based weapons are not helped or hurt, those that use cap based weapons get just enough to last that extra bit of time needed to have a chance of winning the fight.

If not, you may have increase cap so the ship A can now last 3 minutes but the Ship B also got the cap increase and will have cap to put into tanking, Ship B now lasts for 4 minutes. This does not Ship A, it just makes all the Ship B's that much stronger.

I am coming to the conclusion that Tux does not play the game. It is things like the HP boost and the Cap boost that seem to have had no though put into it and is impacting every ship DIFFERENTLY. The non-cap using races are get a great boost. Minnies and most Caldari ships now have much more cap to use for tanking or EW. All the hybrid and laser users are getting dumped on. All the new cap has to go into weapons.

So now we get increase HP and all non-laser/hybrid ships get a cap increase above what the laser/hybrid users are getting. Where is TomB to catch stuff like this and say "What the H#LL!"

Upping the Abaddons cap by 50% moves it from a total waste as a ship design to a wasted ship design.




Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.16 22:08:00 - [702]
 

i disagree about controlled brusts...

they will boost even hybrids weapons that doesn't need any more boost

the real problem here is beams that use too much cap... rebalance beams and problem solved

meppa
Kumovi
The G0dfathers
Posted - 2006.11.16 23:00:00 - [703]
 

There is no problem with cap using weapons or even beams. Problem is purely in abaddon and worst implementation of idea "tank or gank but not both" ever. At the moment it simply means that you can tank, but you can't shoot at all. If one starts to analyse this one would come to a conclution that amarrians have just one ship bonus to play with which means that you can't create tank or gank ships except by limiting number of lowslots and or powergrid. As tier 3 should be atleast as usefull as apoc which can either fit nice short range combat with massive tank or tachyons for long range and because amarrians don't need damage bonuses from ships you are trying to recreate apoc in different way.

This leads to couple of different choises on what to do with amarr.

i) change abaddon to something else without lasers

ii) give abaddon amarrian normal laser cap reduction bonus and keep it as laser boat (boosting cap so it can shoot with lasers would be just silly as it would get way too good at tanking)

iii) change lasers and amarrians in complete overhaul freeing up second bonus for something more fun

As kali is quite late in its development cyckle (atleast i hope so) doing total overhaul with amarrians would be best served at later bigger patch. Basically this leaves options to just change abaddon itself. Easiest solution would be to turn it into armoured tachyon platform by just changing rof bonus to -10% per cap use per level in my opinion. It shouldn't break balance too much as after all it would deal less damage. Also nice tank or gank type of setup could be gotten with 10% less cap need on reppers and lasers per level. Then there are other nice ideas of ew and drone boats. Anything is fine for most amarrian pilots, as long as it gets usefull.

Atm you need about 8 800 booster charges to other bs with short range crystals loaded. That means that you have "ammo" to kill 3 battleships, after that you need to refill your "ammo". This is without running any tanking mods. On long range sniping, you can't kill enemy battleship without running out of cap.

Lobo Noturno
Posted - 2006.11.16 23:01:00 - [704]
 

Ath,

Don't forget Gallentes also need cap for the mwd... Blasters are kinda contact weapons.

About the Rokh range bonus, it is quite powerful when considering rails. It means you can use higher dmg ammo at the same optimal as a non-boosted ship. Sure, it does a little bit less dps, but you can choose how to engage. For anyone that doesn't know, most fleet ops are long range battles, so the one, most important factor is RANGE.(optimal+locking) Damage bonuses, dps, or tankability mean very little on such battles. IF the battles were mid-close range, things would be much different.

Hyperion gets the cap it needs to work, now all we need is to make it better than the megathron, by a wider margin, when using blasters, without breaking something else...

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.16 23:17:00 - [705]
 

yes, but on the other hand ACs need to keep range to be competitive...

also is true that blasters consume cap, but do also more damage that (generally and if possible) translate in more cap used by the defender to heal it

so yup blasters use cap to fire but also require more cap to defend against

(made a post with an example in a thread cap boost for amarr and gallentem if you want i'll link)

Zixxa
Posted - 2006.11.16 23:44:00 - [706]
 

Originally by: Lobo Noturno
About the Rokh range bonus, it is quite powerful when considering rails.

Hmm. Where?

Originally by: Lobo Noturno
It means you can use higher dmg ammo at the same optimal as a non-boosted ship.

Only t1. But t1 ammo sucks.

But we need Rokh nerf.
Propose to change +10% optimal on +5% large hybrids falloff and +5% shield resistance on +5% missile kinetic damage

Asariasha
Caldari
DEFCON.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2006.11.17 01:08:00 - [707]
 

Sorry Zixxa, but falloff and kinetic missile dmg bonus would
turn the Rokh into a even more powerful ship and always think
about to keep Caldari vessels as PvM only!

I suggest to add 10%mining yield and 20% shield boost opti range
to follow the exquisite line of bantam-osprey Rolling Eyes

Ironicism...noooo

The Armin
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.17 03:24:00 - [708]
 

Wow, I think I need to train projectiles, seeing as the Abaddon is totally gonna pwn with capless turrets. 50% more o0.:D

Akiman
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.11.17 08:16:00 - [709]
 

hyperion and megthron has the same mass...and how could we see agility of hyperion?...that ship looks cool but thats not worth it...or we are missing something...

Akiman
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.11.17 10:12:00 - [710]
 

Edited by: Akiman on 17/11/2006 10:14:36
My hyperion would be;

Base speed must be 135 m/sec
(need speed, its a blaster ship)

Mass must be 100.000.000 kg

(if u fit a 1600 plate this will be equal to megathron...Fair enough...Maybe)

Must have agility...

(manuverability,transversal tracking,etc.)



75 m3 drone bay (-) , more speed 10 m/sec more total 145 m/sec (+)

(its a blaster ship,she doesnt want more drone bay she needs speed.Remove 25 m3 drone bay,add more bigger thrusters)

Decreased lock range 30 km (-) , increased scan resolution 150 (+)



Now you see i give a penalty for every boost for being fair.(mostly)

(its a blaster ship,thinking bout using it in fleet combat is out of concept and question, therefore more reduced locking range for increased locking time,you cant have a hit from 60km anyway)

(About the speed, you can say we get help from minmatar scientists and manufacturers...Like amarr get help from caldari)

Akiman

Omatje
Minmatar
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.17 10:18:00 - [711]
 

Yesterday i tried to do some testing on the Maelstrom.

1st - I can't understand how people actually can test 1vs1's given the current status of things

2nd - I loaded up my 8x1400II's with Tremor, and i couldn't track a cruiser with 100 m/s transversal at a range of 195km ( I fitted a tracking computer and a tracking enhancer)
When i showed info on the guns, i noticed my tracking was a whooping 0.004 rad/sec.
That is even worse then the tracking of a Quad 3500 siege artillery (0,005625 rad/sec before skills)!!

T2 projectile ammo is really only usefull when some else can tripple web your target now, even the shortrange ammo.

Matrix Aran
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.17 10:28:00 - [712]
 

Out of pure interest has anyone tryed to fit railguns and dual reps on it at the same time? Considering it basicly looks like an oversized brutix, I was wondering if it would make a half decent missioning ship for my gallente alt.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.17 10:36:00 - [713]
 

i agree about crap tracking (a thing to change considering the stats of rails)

but probably your problem was the distance

t2 longrange ammos where nerfed and now with arty and 0 or 1 tracking mods you can't reach anymore 200km

to have any chance to hit someone at 200km you need 3 tracking mods (and still your hit ratio will be quite poor, even whitout taking in account transverstall/sig radius)

Omatje
Minmatar
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.17 10:42:00 - [714]
 

Originally by: Ath Amon
i agree about crap tracking (a thing to change considering the stats of rails)

but probably your problem was the distance

t2 longrange ammos where nerfed and now with arty and 0 or 1 tracking mods you can't reach anymore 200km

to have any chance to hit someone at 200km you need 3 tracking mods (and still your hit ratio will be quite poor, even whitout taking in account transverstall/sig radius)


I wont matter if i fit 7 tracking mods (even if they wouldn't stack) i never will get back to a normal tracking with 5 extra tracking mods from 0.004 tracking.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.17 11:00:00 - [715]
 

i know i know tracking is really bad, but for a cruiser so "slow" the main problem was the range...

to do decent damage at that distance and with such config you really need a rokh

you want the rokh

Nostejio
Posted - 2006.11.17 11:24:00 - [716]
 

Edited by: Nostejio on 17/11/2006 11:29:30
has anyone tried boosting the amarr bs with a guardian?

will be back to check on this in 13 hrs or so

Lucre
STK Scientific
Black-Out
Posted - 2006.11.17 11:51:00 - [717]
 

Originally by: ProphetGuru
This may quite possibly be the most useless thread I have had the displeasure to read since beta.

It's disorganized and impossible to properly read without getting a headache. Their has been no dev interaction on ANY proposals here, and their have been a number of very good ones.

If we wanted another 21page ***** session with no feedback we coulda made it on our own to be honest.

These ships have not changed much since they hit test, and you are discussing a deployment in 1 week ffs. WTF is the point of us testing stuff if no compensations are made. 3 of the 4 ships in this post need to be tweaked. I would dare say 2 of the 4 approach uselessness.

QFT

What's the point of asking for feedback if CCP don't ever respond to it?

What's the point of asking for testing if nothing can change before release?

Why mock players who complain about "pre-Sisi" stats when "post-Sisi" is then too late for anything to be changed?

Either fix these broken ships before Kali, or pull them. Please. Or at the least tell us why you think they're not broken.

Gragnor
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.17 12:39:00 - [718]
 

Originally by: Omatje
Originally by: Ath Amon
i agree about crap tracking (a thing to change considering the stats of rails)

but probably your problem was the distance

t2 longrange ammos where nerfed and now with arty and 0 or 1 tracking mods you can't reach anymore 200km

to have any chance to hit someone at 200km you need 3 tracking mods (and still your hit ratio will be quite poor, even whitout taking in account transverstall/sig radius)


I wont matter if i fit 7 tracking mods (even if they wouldn't stack) i never will get back to a normal tracking with 5 extra tracking mods from 0.004 tracking.


Hang on. If this is true - CCP has just made Minmitar an unplayable race. I mean; the Hurricane has been nerfed into third place; the Maelstrom will be unable to match it against the Rohk and the Tempest is now useless - outdamaged by the blasterthron close up and outranged by the railgun boats.

Oh, what am I thinking; I have the phoon!!!

Seriously; if these stories are true; then Kali is true the god of Destruction and the only Revelation is of the hypocrisy (we want to nerf range but we give a boat an optimal bonus) and the lack of thought (an active boost bonus on a fleet ship) by the game developers.

What race loses? Minmitar...even the reviled Vagabond is getting a speed nerf. So what's left of any use to fly?

The bit that leaves me bewildered is that Kali has been in development for MONTHS and only now we get to see the full horror of what's being wrought. I have always believed that you should never put bad judgement down to malice when it can be blamed on stupidity; so CCP answer me this; Are you simply malicious or foolish?

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.11.17 14:11:00 - [719]
 

Originally by: Nostejio
Edited by: Nostejio on 17/11/2006 11:29:30
has anyone tried boosting the amarr bs with a guardian?

will be back to check on this in 13 hrs or so


Yes, your opponents just shoot the gaurdian, it explodes, then your abaddon is useless.

Why take an abaddon and a gaurdian when you can take two armageddons?

The range of a gaurdian is about 48 KM, not really enough to get outside sniping range reliably with an Abaddon at 200, not with Rohks around anyway.

Heck, Armageddons are easier to get into than logistics ships anyway.

Logistics ships are only really good under a few conditions.

1. You can get out of targeting range in a fleet

2. You sit at a safe spot and repair the passive shield or armor tanks of your fleet BS's so they dont have to fit reppers[and can fit extra plates/extenders instead].

That is is.

Dano Sarum
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.11.17 17:51:00 - [720]
 

The rokh annoys me a lot really, Caldari cried they had no fleet ship so they get possibly THE longest range ship in the game now, so now we're gonna have T1 Sniper's at gates.

The Hyperion... well I'm not sure on this one, I can't really see how its better then a Mega tbh, it seems like its the same ship only the Megas dronebay is nicer.

The Abbadon is just a joke, but lets be honest so is the Apoc, I know you wanted to "tank or gank" but thats basicly what every ship Amarr allready has does, and they cant even gank now with the stacking penalty.

Lastly the Maelstorm... I can't see people using this over a tempest, tempy is just far superior.

The models are pretty but thats about it.


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