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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.15 12:57:00 - [661]
 

Originally by: Mush Room

Load of bull. Other races have so many more lowslots that they can easily equip backup arrays, thus nullifying ECM.


hahahahahhahahahahaha. no seriosuly. go and try it some time.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.15 13:16:00 - [662]
 

Edited by: Ath Amon on 15/11/2006 13:16:52
@ Lobo Noturno

we know from Tux that rokh and mael share same role as long range platform (rails and arty shield tank boats)

the abaddon is imo another mid-long range ship

so i don't say that these ship should be 100% equal, but that they should be at least comparable...

the rokh atm is not comparable to any ship that can fit that role...

not considering gallente ships (that atm have not a real long range platform) the other ships are too much inferior to it (as shown in the graph)

now... is it a rokh problem or a weapon one?

actually i agree with you that the rokh can be ok for its role... its bonuses and its fitting is not that uber by itself... both mael and abaddon have similar bonuses and fitting... so imo the real problem is with their weapons...

as shown in the comparsion between arty and rails these weapons are not balanced at all... before kali alpha was able to balance that difference a bit... but with kali with both HP boost and range nerf this is no longer true...

for laser the discussion is quite similar to arty, is just a bit more difficult to do a comparsion as the problem there is not damage/range itself, but cap

now for me there is no problem to keep the rokh as it is now, is a fine ship and i assure you i don't want it nerfed... but to keep the ship overal balanced with other ones supposed to fit a fleet role we have to fix the weapon umbalance, or really in a couple of months we will see a situation where T2 rokh = actual T2 fitted ships and T2 other ships = actual T1 fitted ones

Noriath
Posted - 2006.11.15 14:09:00 - [663]
 

Edited by: Noriath on 15/11/2006 14:14:04
Originally by: Mush Room
Load of bull. Other races have so many more lowslots that they can easily equip backup arrays, thus nullifying ECM. ECM is only effective when you choose not to protect yourself against it. This is how everything in eve works.


Sorry, but that entire statement is just stupid. You can't claim that ECM is useless, or not a major advantage in the game because everyone has the option of gimping their ability to tank regular damage in order to counter it, especially since there is no other way to defend against it, and the modules that do counter ECM don't give you a bonus of any other kind.

If the mere presence of ECM in the game can make people use up one or two slots to defend against it with mods that give no other benefit it is clearly one of the most powerful and feared systems in Eve.

Besides, other races don't get more slots then Caldari, they have more lows at the expense of medslots, it's just not like they get free slots to counter ECM on every ship.

PSEWAR
Amarr
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2006.11.15 15:02:00 - [664]
 

Originally by: Tricit

Abbadon: -19.6% Extra Large Energy Turret Power Grid needs per level. -15% Extra Large Energy Turret Capacitor usage per level.



Somehow I like this crazy idea Laughing
Caldari got the XL Shield Booster and Amarr get the XL Turret.
At least it would suit the Amarrian way to fight with the Battleships lineup and fire their devestating Lasers while the smaller ships line up in front to keep the smaller Enemy ships away from the own Battleships.

I think it would need some testing for the ballance, but the idea is just cool Cool

Perry
Amarr
The X-Trading Company
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.15 15:38:00 - [665]
 

How about changing the Abaddons RoF Bonus to something usefull, like

+10% faster logoff / lvl

Noriath
Posted - 2006.11.15 15:52:00 - [666]
 

Originally by: PSEWAR
Originally by: Tricit
At least it would suit the Amarrian way to fight with the Battleships lineup and fire their devestating Lasers while the smaller ships line up in front to keep the smaller Enemy ships away from the own Battleships.


Unfortunatly something like that will never work in Eve, since most fights never even happen unless you warp in at optimal. People will never fight their way through a picket of cruisers to kill a battleship, they will just warp in, kill the battleship, and warp out... Confused

PSEWAR
Amarr
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2006.11.15 15:57:00 - [667]
 

Originally by: Noriath

Unfortunatly something like that will never work in Eve, since most fights never even happen unless you warp in at optimal. People will never fight their way through a picket of cruisers to kill a battleship, they will just warp in, kill the battleship, and warp out... Confused


Then these long range ships should at least have enough armor and/or resistance (an other attribute of the amarrian race) that there is enough time for the cruisers to help the battleships. ;)

I know thats just a dream atm but hey eve changes with every patch, 3 years ago everyone dreamed about a possibility to built player owned structures and nowadays many Corps have them. ;)

Einar Matveinen
Gallente
nXo
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2006.11.15 17:20:00 - [668]
 

Sorry, i don't know if my question has been answered already, i'd like to know if the gallente Hyperion appearance is going to be the same as the Megathron when Kali reaches Tranquility.

Is there any image of the Hyperion's appearance?.

Thanks.

Zixxa
Posted - 2006.11.15 17:50:00 - [669]
 

Edited by: Zixxa on 15/11/2006 17:51:09
Originally by: Ath Amon
Edited by: Ath Amon on 15/11/2006 13:16:52
@ Lobo Noturno

we know from Tux that rokh and mael share same role as long range platform (rails and arty shield tank boats)

What? Rokh is the ONLY long range BS platform in the game. Rokh has no damage bonus(and suxx as damage dealer). Bad joke from the Tux. We need on Rokh 5% damage bonus not useless 5% shield resistance bonus. And it will be good fleet ship.

PSEWAR
Amarr
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2006.11.15 18:03:00 - [670]
 

Originally by: Zixxa
Bad joke from the Tux. We need on Rokh 5% damage bonus not useless 5% shield resistance bonus. And it will be good fleet ship.



I would be very happy to exchange the current abaddon with the rokh if you don't mind.

Zixxa
Posted - 2006.11.15 18:10:00 - [671]
 

Originally by: PSEWAR
Originally by: Zixxa
Bad joke from the Tux. We need on Rokh 5% damage bonus not useless 5% shield resistance bonus. And it will be good fleet ship.



I would be very happy to exchange the current abaddon with the rokh if you don't mind.

Please, I do not need ship without any damage bonus. I have Ferox. It is trash in PvP, helpful only with ECM(before Kali, after Kali Ferox is pure trash).
Abaddon, Tempest, Mega, Hyperion, Maelstrom, Apoc, Geddon will beat Rokh 24/7 in fleet.

PSEWAR
Amarr
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2006.11.15 18:13:00 - [672]
 

Originally by: Zixxa
Abaddon, Tempest, Mega, Hyperion, Maelstrom, Apoc, Geddon will beat Rokh 24/7 in fleet.


If you are so sure about this you should accept my offer.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.15 18:23:00 - [673]
 

Originally by: PSEWAR
Originally by: Zixxa
Abaddon, Tempest, Mega, Hyperion, Maelstrom, Apoc, Geddon will beat Rokh 24/7 in fleet.


If you are so sure about this you should accept my offer.


i think we have a very good opportunity here to make both zixxa and us amarrians happy.

now we just need to convince tux that this would be way better for caldari:
rokh: 5% hybrid rof, 5% shield resists
abaddon: 10% laser optimal, 5% armor resists

i say we let zixxa work on convincing tux and we'll take it upon ourself to try and get amarrian pilots to accept this horrible optimal bonus.


Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.11.15 18:37:00 - [674]
 

Originally by: Uldyr Vulpayne
abaddon: 10% laser optimal, 5% armor resists


Hawt. THAT would almost make up for having to use 2 cap injectors.

Hey, if its good enough for Caldari, why not for Amarr?

Nyxus


Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.15 18:42:00 - [675]
 

Originally by: Zixxa
Edited by: Zixxa on 15/11/2006 17:51:09
Originally by: Ath Amon
Edited by: Ath Amon on 15/11/2006 13:16:52
@ Lobo Noturno

we know from Tux that rokh and mael share same role as long range platform (rails and arty shield tank boats)

What? Rokh is the ONLY long range BS platform in the game. Rokh has no damage bonus(and suxx as damage dealer). Bad joke from the Tux. We need on Rokh 5% damage bonus not useless 5% shield resistance bonus. And it will be good fleet ship.


still trolling around?

it is not supposed to be the only long range bs platform ingame...

and about your statement... you say that damage it crap... show that plz, i posted graph you posted nothing...

and you continue to say tank is useless, range is useless, dps is useless... what is usefull for long range/fleet action? the MWD as you posted a bit ago?

if you think that i'm so wrong plz post your data to enlight me

Zixxa
Posted - 2006.11.15 19:27:00 - [676]
 

Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: Zixxa
Edited by: Zixxa on 15/11/2006 17:51:09
Originally by: Ath Amon
Edited by: Ath Amon on 15/11/2006 13:16:52
@ Lobo Noturno

we know from Tux that rokh and mael share same role as long range platform (rails and arty shield tank boats)

What? Rokh is the ONLY long range BS platform in the game. Rokh has no damage bonus(and suxx as damage dealer). Bad joke from the Tux. We need on Rokh 5% damage bonus not useless 5% shield resistance bonus. And it will be good fleet ship.


still trolling around?

still trying tutorial?

Originally by: Ath Amon
it is not supposed to be the only long range bs platform ingame...

May be it is not supposed. but now Rokh is the ONLY long rage BS platform.

Originally by: Ath Amon
and about your statement... you say that damage it crap... show that plz, i posted graph you posted nothing...

Get calculator and calculate.
Few examples:
Mega = 7*1.25 = 8.75 guns
Tempest = 6*1.25*1.33 = 10 guns
And Tempest has better alphastrike.

Quote:
and you continue to say tank is useless,

In fleet tank is useless. Nobody can tank being locked primary more than ping time.

Quote:
range is useless,

Range may be useful in some conditions. But it far to be so useful as pure dps. Let's replace range bonus for damage bonus, ok?

Quote:
dps is useless...

You lie.

Quote:
what is usefull for long range/fleet action? the MWD as you posted a bit ago?

Yes, MWD is useful, but it depends from stupidity of enemy.
Fleet ABC for you, noobie.
For fleet must important thing is ALPHA-STRIKE! And Rokh's alpha strike is LAUGHFUL.
Second most important thing for fleet is DPS. And Rokh's DPS is miserable.

Pille Dufrais
Posted - 2006.11.15 19:37:00 - [677]
 

Why are you all wasting your time talking about this - I'll eat my hat if there is any significant change to any of the new ships (particularly abaddon :) before kali is released. Especially considering their planned release date.

Asking for feedback on the ships is a cosmetic "we care" exercise, they won't change anything.




Zixxa
Posted - 2006.11.15 19:41:00 - [678]
 

Originally by: Pille Dufrais
Why are you all wasting your time talking about this - I'll eat my hat if there is any significant change to any of the new ships (particularly abaddon :) before kali is released. Especially considering their planned release date.

Asking for feedback on the ships is a cosmetic "we care" exercise, they won't change anything.

Because I am in fury. Just in fury. I lost millions SP in missiles and Caldari BS/Caldari cruisers(thank you, TUX, thank you very much).

ProphetGuru
Gallente
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.11.15 19:50:00 - [679]
 

Edited by: ProphetGuru on 15/11/2006 19:50:47
This may quite possibly be the most useless thread I have had the displeasure to read since beta.

It's disorginized and impossible to properly read without getting a headache. Their has been no dev interaction on ANY proposals here, and their have been a number of very good ones.

If we wanted another 21page ***** session with no feedback we coulda made it on our own to be honest.

These ships have not changed much since they hit test, and you are discussing a deployment in 1 week ffs. WTF is the point of us testing stuff if no compensations are made. 3 of the 4 ships in this post need to be tweaked. I would dare say 2 of the 4 approach uselessness.

Have you learned nothing since the clusterfrack named castor?



Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.15 19:51:00 - [680]
 

Edited by: Ath Amon on 15/11/2006 19:53:00
Originally by: Zixxa
Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: Zixxa
Edited by: Zixxa on 15/11/2006 17:51:09
Originally by: Ath Amon
Edited by: Ath Amon on 15/11/2006 13:16:52
@ Lobo Noturno

we know from Tux that rokh and mael share same role as long range platform (rails and arty shield tank boats)

What? Rokh is the ONLY long range BS platform in the game. Rokh has no damage bonus(and suxx as damage dealer). Bad joke from the Tux. We need on Rokh 5% damage bonus not useless 5% shield resistance bonus. And it will be good fleet ship.


still trolling around?


still trying tutorial?


as you see my avatar is clearly visible.. (not as your) so probably i finished the tutorial a bit, before you

Originally by: Zixxa

Originally by: Ath Amon
it is not supposed to be the only long range bs platform ingame...

May be it is not supposed. but now Rokh is the ONLY long rage BS platform.

Originally by: Ath Amon
and about your statement... you say that damage it crap... show that plz, i posted graph you posted nothing...

Get calculator and calculate.
Few examples:
Mega = 7*1.25 = 8.75 guns
Tempest = 6*1.25*1.33 = 10 guns
And Tempest has better alphastrike.


little problem is that arty and rails have not the same stats so your gun comparsion is worth nothing as they are using different weapons...

to do a simple example... if i have a weapond that do 30x dps of another one i can mount just 1 gun and outdps by a far amount a ship that mount 10 guns with *1.25*1.33

Originally by: Zixxa

Quote:
and you continue to say tank is useless,

In fleet tank is useless. Nobody can tank being locked primary more than ping time.

Quote:
range is useless,

Range may be useful in some conditions. But it far to be so useful as pure dps. Let's replace range bonus for damage bonus, ok?

Quote:
dps is useless...

You lie.


if tank is useless so is the dps...

Originally by: Zixxa

Quote:
what is usefull for long range/fleet action? the MWD as you posted a bit ago?

Yes, MWD is useful, but it depends from stupidity of enemy.
Fleet ABC for you, noobie.
For fleet must important thing is ALPHA-STRIKE! And Rokh's alpha strike is LAUGHFUL.
Second most important thing for fleet is DPS. And Rokh's DPS is miserable.


i alredy posted the graph showing the dps difference of mael/pest/rokh... you said it was a lie and posted nothing...

and about who is the noobie...
Originally by: Zixxa

I hope you are right, because I am going to train rails, but I do not see how Rokh may be more useful even than Mega.



how is that you are so expert of fleet battles and hybrid weapons BS if you have yet to train rails? Rolling Eyes



Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.15 19:56:00 - [681]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 15/11/2006 19:57:23
Originally by: Zixxa
Quote:
and you continue to say tank is useless,

In fleet tank is useless. Nobody can tank being locked primary more than ping time.
...
Quote:
dps is useless...

You lie.
...
Second most important thing for fleet is DPS. And Rokh's DPS is miserable.


You are contradicting yourself here. A tank is the counterpart to dps. If a tank is useless dps is useless as well. If dps is important a tank is important, too.

Note that "tank" does not necessarily mean "active armor/shield tank" or "passive recharge shieldtank", an "I have 1 zillion extenders/plates fitted where you have to chew through first" is a tank as well.
When people use the "passive tank" term for fleet setups they mean the "HP buffer" tank, not the "shield recharge" tank.

Butter Dog
Gallente
The Monocled Elite
Posted - 2006.11.15 20:22:00 - [682]
 

Final thoughts on the Hyperion:

Its too similar to the Megathron. With the tracking nerf on Null, it will be more beneficial to use the Megathron over the Hype.

Also, the Mega can fit damage rigs more easily than the Hype for both Blasters and Rails. This means its DPS WILL be superior for both blasters (plus the extra tracking) and rails.

Oh and it costs 100m more than the mega. What a crock of crap.


Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.11.15 20:57:00 - [683]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 15/11/2006 20:59:17
Originally by: Nyxus
Originally by: Uldyr Vulpayne
abaddon: 10% laser optimal, 5% armor resists


Hawt. THAT would almost make up for having to use 2 cap injectors.

Hey, if its good enough for Caldari, why not for Amarr?

Nyxus




If that happened, at least the only other ship that could retaliate in kind would be the Rokh and its far enough out that using a logistics ship works[because the Abaddon could hang at 240km and the logistics ship 30km behind that, making it untargetable].

A small price to pay for the 33% DPS drop.

edit: Aramendel, i have told Zixxa this three times already, and even showed how a 50% resist tank[3 low slots] is better in relative DPS than a 50% damage boost[also 3 lowslots]

She just doesnt understand basic logic.

Atar
Perpetua Umbra
Brotherhood Of Steel
Posted - 2006.11.16 05:35:00 - [684]
 

Originally by: ProphetGuru
Edited by: ProphetGuru on 15/11/2006 19:50:47
This may quite possibly be the most useless thread I have had the displeasure to read since beta.

It's disorginized and impossible to properly read without getting a headache. Their has been no dev interaction on ANY proposals here, and their have been a number of very good ones.

If we wanted another 21page ***** session with no feedback we coulda made it on our own to be honest.

These ships have not changed much since they hit test, and you are discussing a deployment in 1 week ffs. WTF is the point of us testing stuff if no compensations are made. 3 of the 4 ships in this post need to be tweaked. I would dare say 2 of the 4 approach uselessness.

Have you learned nothing since the clusterfrack named castor?





I have to agree we could at least use a thread on each ship, but no one is going to read though 23 pages of this stuff.

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2006.11.16 08:37:00 - [685]
 

Originally by: Zixxa
I hope you are right, because I am going to train rails,


Ahh
Okay, I guess that explains your total lack of any kind of clue expressed in pretty much every post you made. Never ever fired a gun in EVE yet, have we? Optimal, falloff, tracking, what IS that?!?!
And of course DPS is the one and only meaningful variable in combat ever...

Rolling Eyes

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2006.11.16 11:03:00 - [686]
 

Originally by: Zixxa
Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: Zixxa
Edited by: Zixxa on 15/11/2006 17:51:09
Originally by: Ath Amon
Edited by: Ath Amon on 15/11/2006 13:16:52
@ Lobo Noturno

we know from Tux that rokh and mael share same role as long range platform (rails and arty shield tank boats)

What? Rokh is the ONLY long range BS platform in the game. Rokh has no damage bonus(and suxx as damage dealer). Bad joke from the Tux. We need on Rokh 5% damage bonus not useless 5% shield resistance bonus. And it will be good fleet ship.


still trolling around?

still trying tutorial?

Originally by: Ath Amon
it is not supposed to be the only long range bs platform ingame...

May be it is not supposed. but now Rokh is the ONLY long rage BS platform.

Originally by: Ath Amon
and about your statement... you say that damage it crap... show that plz, i posted graph you posted nothing...

Get calculator and calculate.
Few examples:
Mega = 7*1.25 = 8.75 guns
Tempest = 6*1.25*1.33 = 10 guns
And Tempest has better alphastrike.

Quote:
and you continue to say tank is useless,

In fleet tank is useless. Nobody can tank being locked primary more than ping time.

Quote:
range is useless,

Range may be useful in some conditions. But it far to be so useful as pure dps. Let's replace range bonus for damage bonus, ok?

Quote:
dps is useless...

You lie.

Quote:
what is usefull for long range/fleet action? the MWD as you posted a bit ago?

Yes, MWD is useful, but it depends from stupidity of enemy.
Fleet ABC for you, noobie.
For fleet must important thing is ALPHA-STRIKE! And Rokh's alpha strike is LAUGHFUL.
Second most important thing for fleet is DPS. And Rokh's DPS is miserable.


I kinda feel better now, I guess I'm not the only one that Zixxa treats so poorly. Zixxa, you really should refrain from calling everyone a liar. It's not acceptable.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.11.16 11:48:00 - [687]
 

Originally by: murder one

I kinda feel better now, I guess I'm not the only one that Zixxa treats so poorly. Zixxa, you really should refrain from calling everyone a liar. It's not acceptable.


I think it's partly a problem with his/her poor English skills, and partly a problem with him/her being an immature *******. I think it's something like a 20%/80% mix of those.

I wish these forums had an "ignore" filter.

Dumus
Amarr
Vipera Centauri
Posted - 2006.11.16 11:56:00 - [688]
 

Way too many posts to read as you have lomped them all togtherRolling Eyes

Anyway the Abidon. I tried a few setups and this ship is a waste! I cannot ever see me wanting to fly this on TQ. Cap runs out too fast and its DPS is a joke for whats supposed to be a top of the line ship. I can out kill it in an absolution!

And besides it looks like a dogs breakfast of a design imo

Zixxa
Posted - 2006.11.16 14:42:00 - [689]
 

Originally by: Ath Amon
as you see my avatar is clearly visible.. (not as your) so probably i finished the tutorial a bit, before you

Stop trolling.

Originally by: Ath Amon
it is not supposed to be the only long range bs platform ingame...

May be it is not supposed. but now Rokh is the ONLY long rage BS platform.

Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: Zixxa

Get calculator and calculate.
Few examples:
Mega = 7*1.25 = 8.75 guns
Tempest = 6*1.25*1.33 = 10 guns
And Tempest has better alphastrike.


little problem is that arty and rails have not the same stats so your gun comparsion is worth nothing as they are using different weapons...

It has no big difference.
But Mega has 8.75 rails while Rokh(o my God!) has 8. And mega uses less capa.
And tempest is better than Mega(for fleet), even after nerfing apha strike.
Would you be so kind to calculate Hyperion?

Originally by: Zixxa

Quote:
and you continue to say tank is useless,

In fleet tank is useless. Nobody can tank being locked primary more than ping time.

Quote:

if tank is useless so is the dps...

Tank is useless in fleet battle. Dps is useless in fleet battle.
Ok, I AM SORRY, politically correct statement.
Tank is ALMOST useless in fleet battle. Dps is ALMOST useless in fleet battle.

Quote:
i alredy posted the graph showing the dps difference of mael/pest/rokh... you said it was a lie and posted nothing...

It is enough.

Originally by: Zixxa
how is that you are so expert of fleet battles and hybrid weapons BS if you have yet to train rails? Rolling Eyes

I am **** pure missile, pure Caldari ALT! And I my missiles ARE USELESS in PVP.

Zixxa
Posted - 2006.11.16 14:47:00 - [690]
 

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Zixxa
I hope you are right, because I am going to train rails,


Ahh
Okay, I guess that explains your total lack of any kind of clue expressed in pretty much every post you made. Never ever fired a gun in EVE yet, have we? Optimal, falloff, tracking, what IS that?!?!
And of course DPS is the one and only meaningful variable in combat ever...

Rolling Eyes

I am *** missile ALT. Pure missile ALT. Pure Caldari.
And FYI, dude, dps is only meaningful variable in combat only for you. For fleet battle counted not dps, but alpha-strike. And with zero alpha-strike(missiles) I am zero in fleet battle. But with smaller gangs we are going for dps. And in terms of dps missile boats suck again.


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