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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.14 14:11:00 - [631]
 

Originally by: Perry
I got the impression, that we gave our opinions clear and easy to understand. CCP is ignoring them, so why bother anymore? But ofcourse you could be right and one last uber post with super clear facts changes all. But why do Caldari get their good tier 3 and all others need to do math?

We want:

Amarr: Good skirmish BS for short range solo/gang/support(ew), eg big Arbitrator, Missleship, mix of it, we dont care as long as we dont get a third subpar fleet bs.

Gallente: Either a true Blastership with uber close range gank, or Support BS with many medslots and EW Bonus (Big Celestis).

Minmatar: Uber AC Boat with speed, many turrets medium tank, and perhaps adjustments to Typhoon/Tempest to become Support/Long Range Ships, eg TP Bonus for Typhoon to use Missles far more effective (perhaps 5 missleslots) and the Tempest gets a bit more grid for those 1400mm.

But it will get ignored and we get a third Crap Amarr ship, a second Blasterboat thats alomost a copy of Megathron, and a "i dont know what im good for" BS

Laughing


Pretty much QFT

Karash Amerius
Sutoka
Posted - 2006.11.14 17:47:00 - [632]
 

How about making the Abaddon go in the same vien as the Augoror?

Bonus: 10% Cap Reduction Large Energy Turret / 10% Armor HP per level.

I think that would be a good "role"

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.14 17:54:00 - [633]
 

Originally by: Karash Amerius
How about making the Abaddon go in the same vien as the Augoror?

Bonus: 10% Cap Reduction Large Energy Turret / 10% Armor HP per level.

I think that would be a good "role"


would be a nice tank with autocannons. much like the apoc only with a better 2nd bonus.


Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.14 18:25:00 - [634]
 

While it would certainly would make it better than it is now you might as well just remove the apoc from the game then.

Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction
The Firm.
Posted - 2006.11.14 18:34:00 - [635]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
While it would certainly would make it better than it is now you might as well just remove the apoc from the game then.

I wouldn't go that far. Thanks to its fitting and bonuses, the Apoc has a definite edge over both the Abaddon and Armageddon when used as a fleet Tachyon platform. It will keep firing far longer than the others. I think given the Abaddon's inevitable drift towards autocannons, the Apoc will remain the Amarr fleet sniper BS.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.14 19:23:00 - [636]
 

I was referring to

Originally by: Karash Amerius
How about making the Abaddon go in the same vien as the Augoror?

Bonus: 10% Cap Reduction Large Energy Turret / 10% Armor HP per level.

I think that would be a good "role"


I would really be interested where the apoc would be preferable then. Certainly not in fleet warefare.

XFreedomX
Posted - 2006.11.14 20:50:00 - [637]
 

I do not understand why everyone have their heart set on changing the Abaddon. I like it just the way it is. Put 8x1400mm T2 on it and armor tank it to hell. No CAP issues here, and mid slot 2 tracking comp and 2 sensor booster.

Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2006.11.14 21:41:00 - [638]
 

Originally by: XFreedomX
I do not understand why everyone have their heart set on changing the Abaddon. I like it just the way it is. Put 8x1400mm T2 on it and armor tank it to hell. No CAP issues here, and mid slot 2 tracking comp and 2 sensor booster.


So you dont plan on firing weapons? The ship can only fire for 2 minutes with T2 Tachs and a hold full of charges. If your going short range, with that many plates, how are you going to move?

I would like to see two things.

Change the from 5% to 10% per level for controlled burst.

Change RoF bonus to Cap Recharge Rage Bonus say 20 % per level. That would change the 750 second base rate to 375 seconds at BS level 5. Actually I would suggest doing that in place of the cap bonus on all Amarr ships also, but this is about the Abaddon.

Then the lasers use twice as much cap but the cap rechanges twice as fast. It evens out.


XFreedomX
Posted - 2006.11.14 21:50:00 - [639]
 

hmm... maybe you didn't noticed. I said 1400mm T2 and not Tachyon.

While I am here, let me propose some fixes that will make everyone happy.

Abaddon: change rof bonus to 7.5% tracking bonus.
Mealstram: change shield boost bonus to 10% range bonus.

Perry
Amarr
The X-Trading Company
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.14 22:08:00 - [640]
 

Originally by: XFreedomX
hmm... maybe you didn't noticed. I said 1400mm T2 and not Tachyon.

While I am here, let me propose some fixes that will make everyone happy.

Abaddon: change rof bonus to 7.5% tracking bonus.
Mealstram: change shield boost bonus to 10% range bonus.



maybe YOU didnt noticed, but amarr dont want to use projectil weapons on their ship, wasting one or two bonuses and being still subpar to any other ship in same class, especially in shorter ranges and longer engagements.

So please stop posting here with this kind of attitude towards amarr (tracking bonus to lasers, and suggesting to fit artillery at the same time, what are you smoking over there?).

Thanks.

Commander Thrawn
M. Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.11.14 22:57:00 - [641]
 

Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 14/11/2006 22:57:40
Originally by: XFreedomX
hmm... maybe you didn't noticed. I said 1400mm T2 and not Tachyon.

While I am here, let me propose some fixes that will make everyone happy.

Abaddon: change rof bonus to 7.5% tracking bonus.
Mealstram: change shield boost bonus to 10% range bonus.



that is the problem we shouldn't need to fit minnie weapons on an amarr ship with a bonus to amarr weapons

CCP fix this freaking ship Evil or Very Mad

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.14 23:11:00 - [642]
 

i agree, as said in other posts imho the problem here is mostly about weapons and not for ship themselves

the idea should be not to change the abaddon or maelstrom (even if its shielf boost need to be changed) to compete with rokh in offensive compartment...

but to change the weapons because the umbalance is in weapon systems and not in ships

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.14 23:56:00 - [643]
 

Originally by: Ath Amon
i agree, as said in other posts imho the problem here is mostly about weapons and not for ship themselves


well looking at the abaddon as it is now you cant really do much other than completely scrap the design and go back to square one. the whole idea behind it is wrong and proven not to work.

XFreedomX
Posted - 2006.11.15 00:35:00 - [644]
 

I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree here. The problem is not with the Amarr ships, the problem is with the beam weapon's energy consumption. Your BS already have the most CAP of any race and the best power grid, continue to increase that just make it a better platform for other weapon systems. Better to leave it as is, and reduce cap usage of all weapon's by XX% and likewise ammo capacity to counter the upcomming changes, or to introduce modules to reduce cap use for turret and ammo capacity.

Sir Bart
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.11.15 00:56:00 - [645]
 

Finally got on the test server to try out the hyperion. Needless to say I was skeptical going in.

The extra tankability is pretty decent but megathron is almost as good as a blastership and combined with the fact that rigs need power and megathron has more power, megathron will likely be the better design. I fully expected the Hyperion to be a tanking nos ship from it's bonuses but it seems it's powergrid prevents that, and nos doesn't seem to be very effective anymore, nos stats seem to be the same but they don't seeme to be working very good.... anyways, next I thought, well powergrid isn't an issue on snipers right? so I setup the hyperion as a sniper. It's got more hp than a megathron, similar range, a bit more damage and it still locks at 235km or something when you use 3 sensor boosters.

Hyperion turns out ot be a small improvement to the megathron in sniping (well, 20% more hp is pretty good, all other aspects are about the same, but it's much more expensive).

For blasterships, I think it's close but the differences I've found:

I'm comparing dual rep hyperion to a dual rep mega and :
mega does more damage per second (ion's are better than electrons and extra low slot can fit another MFS. but 7 guns compared to 8. Over all mega I think has about 10% more dps)
mega has 26% better tracking (37% bonus but ions track a bit worse)
hyperion has 37% better damage rep'd per second
hyperion has a better capacitor
hyperion goes 7% faster
hyperion has something like 20% more starting HP.
hyperion locks a bit faster (something like 15%).
hyperion has an extra midslot but they are no longer really better than low slots anymore since ECM has been nerf'd.

If you add all these factors together, I think the hyperion would win in a fight (they could both tank each other pretty good but since hyperion uses less cap / amount repaired it can out last the megathron. However, I will still use megathron since I don't want to pay the extra amount to buy the ship for such a small edge.

If it's not my imagination and the nos is getting weakened... combined with the longer battles but no more drone HP, dominix is getting hurt bad.

Also, I thought Absolution was gonna really bad ass with an unbeatable tank, Nos, and a couple autocannons to shoot the other guy... but with nos weakened, I think it will only be good at sniping (rigs will lessen the cap penalty).

-Bart

Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2006.11.15 01:00:00 - [646]
 

Originally by: XFreedomX
I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree here. The problem is not with the Amarr ships, the problem is with the beam weapon's energy consumption. Your BS already have the most CAP of any race and the best power grid, continue to increase that just make it a better platform for other weapon systems. Better to leave it as is, and reduce cap usage of all weapon's by XX% and likewise ammo capacity to counter the upcomming changes, or to introduce modules to reduce cap use for turret and ammo capacity.


While your right about the beam weapons, I put my standard Apoc mission rig on an Abaddon and it could not handle the 7 MPL2s and tank at the same time. It really capped out when I turned the Office LSmartBomb on. I can run LAR/MAR 7xMPL2 /w Multi and the SB for a long time on the Apoc I cannot run the MPL2s and the Reps on the Abaddon.

The design with the current bonuses just does not work.

That is why I suggest changing the bonus to 20% cap recharge rate bonus per ship skill level and changing controlled burst to 10% per level.

The first fixes the Abaddon and the second helps all cap using turrets in the game.


Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.15 01:54:00 - [647]
 

Originally by: Miri Tirzan

That is why I suggest changing the bonus to 20% cap recharge rate bonus per ship skill level and changing controlled burst to 10% per level.

The first fixes the Abaddon and the second helps all cap using turrets in the game.



which abaddon bonus do you want to replace with that 20% cap recharge rate?

replace the 5% resists and you get a better geddon.
replace the 5% rof and you get a better apoc.

not really going to change the fact that this ship is a failed design and most definately not a much needed addition to the amarrian fleet. it does not fill a new role the way it is now and changing it to become clsoer the our old battleships wont fix that.


Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2006.11.15 03:06:00 - [648]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Miri Tirzan

That is why I suggest changing the bonus to 20% cap recharge rate bonus per ship skill level and changing controlled burst to 10% per level.

The first fixes the Abaddon and the second helps all cap using turrets in the game.



which abaddon bonus do you want to replace with that 20% cap recharge rate?

replace the 5% resists and you get a better geddon.
replace the 5% rof and you get a better apoc.

not really going to change the fact that this ship is a failed design and most definately not a much needed addition to the amarrian fleet. it does not fill a new role the way it is now and changing it to become clsoer the our old battleships wont fix that.




I agree it is a failed design. It would be nice if it was a drone or EW ship, but that is not what we have. I would rather have a better Apoc for the price, since a geddon is cheaper and does the same damage. At least a better Apoc would have some value with battles lasting longer and could be used for PvE. The Abaddon does not even make a good PvE ship.


XFreedomX
Posted - 2006.11.15 04:21:00 - [649]
 

Although the 20% recharge rate bonus will help the Abaddon with the CAP issue, it will make it a better projectile platform then a beam platform, which I am sure upsets the Amarrian purists...

Abaddon fitted with 1400mm will win out against Tachyon fitted configuration every time because the 1400mm fitting will have power grid left for 1600mm plates as well as more cap for rep. To a lesser extend, all Amarrian ship will face this challenge with the hp increase.

Tricit
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2006.11.15 04:31:00 - [650]
 

Edited by: Tricit on 15/11/2006 04:45:12
Edited by: Tricit on 15/11/2006 04:32:41
Edited by: Tricit on 15/11/2006 04:30:59
I know this will never make it, but I just did this for fun out of boredom.

Abbadon: -19.6% Extra Large Energy Turret Power Grid needs per level. -15% Extra Large Energy Turret Capacitor usage per level.

(Variations) *Values are the same default
>Abbadon Navy Issue<
-Abbadon Imperial Issue-

-Fitting-
21000 Power Grid -21000- >26000<
800 CPU -800- >950<
8 High Slots -8- >8<
3 Medium Slots -4- >4<
8 Low Slots -8- >8<
8 Turret Hardpoints -8- >8<
0 Launcher Hardpoints -8- >4<

-Attributes-
(Structure) 9300 -12000- >14000<
Capacity: 680m3 -680m3- >780m3<
Drone Capacity: 75m3 -175m3- >125<
Mass: 120,000,000kg *
Volumn: 1,250,000m3 (50,000m3 packaged) *
EM Damage Resistance: 0% *
Explosive Damage Resistance: 0% *
Kinetic Damage Resistance 0% *
Thermal Damage Resistance: 0% *

(Armor) 10800 -16500- >19000<
EM Damage Resistance: 60% *
Explosive Damage Resistance: 20% *
Kinetic Damage Resistance: 25% *
Thermal Damage Resistance: 35% *

(Shield) 8200 -12500- >14000<
Shield Recharge Time: 3000s *
EM Damage Resistance: 0% *
Explosive Damage Resistance: 60% *
Kinetic Damage Resistance: 40% *
Thermal Damage Resistance: 20% *

(Capacity) 6200 -6200- >7000<
Capacitor Recharge Time: 870s *

(Targeting)
Maximum Targetting Range: 95KM -95KM- >115KM<
Max Locked Targets: 4 -4- >4<
Scan Resolution: 70mm -70mm- >70mm<
Radar Sensor Strength: 35 points -39- >43<
Signature Radius: 550m *

(Propulsion)
Max Velocity: 100m/s -120m/s- >100m/s<

(Required Skills)
Amarr Battleship Level III
Spaceship Command Level IV
Amarr Cruiser Level IV
Spaceship Command Level III
Amarr Frigate Level IV
Spaceship Command Level I

Tricit
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2006.11.15 04:35:00 - [651]
 

I r so crazy Shocked

XFreedomX
Posted - 2006.11.15 05:47:00 - [652]
 

BTW after going through some of the ealier posts, for those of you who are advocating Target Painting, Sensor Damping bonus (or any other support oriented bonus) for a BATTLESHIP?!??! For crying out loud......

Lets review what battleships are suppose to do...
1. Hit Hard.
2. Take lots of damage.
3. Hit Harder.
4. Take more damage.

We've already seen the Scorpion being displaced by Rook because it was never a true battleship to start off with.


Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2006.11.15 07:50:00 - [653]
 

Originally by: XFreedomX
BTW after going through some of the ealier posts, for those of you who are advocating Target Painting, Sensor Damping bonus (or any other support oriented bonus) for a BATTLESHIP?!??! For crying out loud......

Lets review what battleships are suppose to do...
1. Hit Hard.
2. Take lots of damage.
3. Hit Harder.
4. Take more damage.

We've already seen the Scorpion being displaced by Rook because it was never a true battleship to start off with.


We? Please speak only for yourself. I see a Rook once in a blue moon and Scorps every day...

XFreedomX
Posted - 2006.11.15 08:53:00 - [654]
 

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: XFreedomX
BTW after going through some of the ealier posts, for those of you who are advocating Target Painting, Sensor Damping bonus (or any other support oriented bonus) for a BATTLESHIP?!??! For crying out loud......

Lets review what battleships are suppose to do...
1. Hit Hard.
2. Take lots of damage.
3. Hit Harder.
4. Take more damage.

We've already seen the Scorpion being displaced by Rook because it was never a true battleship to start off with.


We? Please speak only for yourself. I see a Rook once in a blue moon and Scorps every day...


The point of your comment escapes me. You think we should have support type bonus on Battleships? Maybe you think it is better to have shield transfer bonus instead of range bonus on the Rokh?

Noriath
Posted - 2006.11.15 10:12:00 - [655]
 

What he says is that the Scorpion is one of the most useful and most used ships in PvP, because electronic warfare is just so incredibly powerful in Eve, and you can't justify only one race out of four having that kind of capability by saying that everyone elses battleships should purely be geared towards damage and tanking.

Mush Room
Svea Rike
Tre Kroner
Posted - 2006.11.15 11:25:00 - [656]
 

Originally by: Noriath
What he says is that the Scorpion is one of the most useful and most used ships in PvP, because electronic warfare is just so incredibly powerful in Eve, and you can't justify only one race out of four having that kind of capability by saying that everyone elses battleships should purely be geared towards damage and tanking.

Load of bull. Other races have so many more lowslots that they can easily equip backup arrays, thus nullifying ECM. ECM is only effective when you choose not to protect yourself against it. This is how everything in eve works. Run a cap-dependant setup and I will nos you to death. You go close-range and I will web you. Everything has a counter.
But hey, you go ahead and slam on another armor resist with uber stacking penalty instead of putting on a backup array.
Never ceases to amaze me how much people can complain about ECM, even now that it is being nerfed.

Zixxa
Posted - 2006.11.15 11:29:00 - [657]
 

What about to remove this annoying 50% HP increase? It seems that without 50% increase all major problems will vanish? Tempest will stay with its alfa, Abaddon will be much more effective, no gal/amarr whining that capa is out, no gal/amarr whing that Caldari won Eve, etc, etc, etc.

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2006.11.15 11:59:00 - [658]
 

Originally by: XFreedomX
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: XFreedomX
BTW after going through some of the ealier posts, for those of you who are advocating Target Painting, Sensor Damping bonus (or any other support oriented bonus) for a BATTLESHIP?!??! For crying out loud......

Lets review what battleships are suppose to do...
1. Hit Hard.
2. Take lots of damage.
3. Hit Harder.
4. Take more damage.

We've already seen the Scorpion being displaced by Rook because it was never a true battleship to start off with.


We? Please speak only for yourself. I see a Rook once in a blue moon and Scorps every day...


The point of your comment escapes me. You think we should have support type bonus on Battleships? Maybe you think it is better to have shield transfer bonus instead of range bonus on the Rokh?


Geez...
The Rokh is fine, as you would know if you had read my previous posts. What I am saying is that the Scorp is also fine, and used tons. And Battleships with EW bonuses (And that is NOT support, EW is an important part of direct warfare) for the other races would be just as fine imho. Definitely better than the half-assed same old things we got now.
I don't think we need to argue about the power of damps, and while tracking disruptors don't work against missiles (they should though, disrupt missiles tracking = increase their exp radius) they are still good, plus the Abaddon would get a drone bonus as additional treat if I had a say. Just Minmatar would need something else I guess, a real targetpainting missileboat would probably be too powerful (I would still love it though) while a targetpainting turret-boat would be underpowered. Though that could possibly be offset by a larger dronebay since drones also benefit quite a bit from painting, but then again we got the phoon already. Maybe make the Phoon the Minmatar EW ship by giving it a 5th launcher slot, changing the turret ROF bonus into a painter one and giving it 8/5/6 slots, so we have a targetpainting half-baked missile boat with a large dronebay? And then make the Mael an AC boat.
But I digressed lol...
Basically Scorp = great, so other EW Battleships will likely also be great.

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.15 12:25:00 - [659]
 

And it's only ECM that gets a range bonus on its dedicated ships (20% per level!). The other methods of electronic warfare just can't reach out to the battleship level/distances.
That's why I want a range bonus to tracking disruptors on the abaddon (or the apocalypse after changing one of them into a drone boat).

And yes, looking as how successful the scorpion is being used in fleets it would only be fair to give the other races an ewar battleship as well.

Lobo Noturno
Posted - 2006.11.15 12:26:00 - [660]
 

Ath,

You proved that the maelstron is not as good as the rokh, not that the rokh is overpowered in it's role. I am guessin part of the problem is assuming the new ships are all fleet ships, which they are not...(fleet blaster ship??? Abbadon running out of cap in mid of a fight, not able to warp out???) That's why i want the devs to state how the hell they think each ship should be used for us to verify if that usage is possible and better than the other BSes of the same race on the same role... Right now, only hyperion and rokh have clear roles, and while the rokh works perfectly well in that role, the hyperion isn't really great at it...


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