open All Channels
seplocked Test Server Feedback
blankseplocked Tier 3 Battleships discussion
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 17 18 19 20 [21] 22 23 24 25 ... : last (31)

Author Topic

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.12 18:37:00 - [601]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 12/11/2006 18:39:41
Originally by: Goumindong
I believe we were talking about how awesome the Rokh is, how great it is for a real fleet BS for Caldari, how repititve the Maelstron, Hyperion, and Abaddon seem, how the Maelstrom will make a pretty good shield tanked AC boat, and how absolutly useless the Abaddon is unless it fits projectiles or four+ NOS's[and projectiles].


Maelstrom looks to have less dps than the Typhoon. And Typhoon is armor tanked and faster which makes it much better for solo work. Im trying to see the Maelstrom as some kind of gang autocannon ship, but... I dont know. The other minnie battleships are better than it at everything basicly.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.12 18:57:00 - [602]
 

Originally by: XFreedomX
Well... While I wouldn't take 1 logistic and 1 Abaddon over 2 geddon, I would take 4 Abaddon and 2 logistic over 6 geddon. The Abaddon can be equiped for Max dmg and Tank with no wasted slots used for CAP. Point here is there are ways to overcome deficiencies in a ship, Abadon fleets can be warped out to recharge and back in to re-engage if needed.

As for logistic ships been called primary first, that only shows how powerful they are if left alone....


Problem is that a 6 geddon outfit will still do more dps than a 4 abaddon outfit. You would need 7 abaddons vs 8 geddons to get *equal* dps (for longrange setups without drones). For the combined HPs 6 geddons also beat 4 abas easily, even with their resistance bonus. They are also cheaper alltogether and faster.

And the reason logistic ships are called primary is not because they pop very fast. They do not represent an huge danger, but since they get destroyed with so little effort their damage inflicted/firepower invested ratio is very high.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.12 19:50:00 - [603]
 

even for me is not a very good solution to "sacrify" a bs for a support ship

if a BS like abaddon will realy heavilly on other ships to fire then the fleet will become quite vulnerable as losing a support ship will be like to lose 1+ BS

even the idea to warp in and out is not that good imo... basically you are going to loose the dps advantage you have over other ships

at best i can see a tempest or 2 that fit a mid or light cap transfer mod to help a comrade, but this should be not the "solution" to cap problems... just a small help if cap start to run really low.

still comparing abaddon to rokh the difference in efficency is huge, probably even if it had a 5%rof 10%cap usage the ship was not able to compete with the caldari new BS

as said imo the problem is more in lasers than on ships... or better by the difference of rails compared to other turrets.

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2006.11.12 19:59:00 - [604]
 

Rokh seems a fine ship, but OMG it doesn't have nice cap either... ugh

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.12 20:10:00 - [605]
 

eheh rokh is quite uber a passive tank with 1-2 invul and 2-3 large extenders... 200+ km range... decent dps...

also with passive you don't need much cap and you can use it just for the guns :)


Mastin Dragonfly
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2006.11.12 20:23:00 - [606]
 

Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 12/11/2006 20:24:06
No news whatsoever about possible changes to the new battleships from the Fanfest?

Ishina Fel
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2006.11.12 22:27:00 - [607]
 

Originally by: Ath Amon
eheh rokh is quite uber a passive tank with 1-2 invul and 2-3 large extenders... 200+ km range... decent dps...



Rokh doesn't passive tank nearly as well as a Ferox/Drake. Though I guess, it's okay for mission running... as far as large turrets are okay for mission running.

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.12 22:31:00 - [608]
 

Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly
No news whatsoever about possible changes to the new battleships from the Fanfest?

That is what's bothering me as well. I sure hope things aren't set in stone and all this discussion here is for nothing.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.13 07:13:00 - [609]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 13/11/2006 07:17:14

Originally by: Forsch
I sure hope things aren't set in stone and all this discussion here is for nothing.


Of course it is. Kali is planned to come to TQ in 15 days, so... fat chance they are going to start fiddling with the ships now when there still are bugs in Kali. They can make changes, but they wont have time to really test them. So I think they wont.

This thread might be looked at later though, if they want to boost the ships in some patch.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.13 07:38:00 - [610]
 

Originally by: Ishina Fel
Originally by: Ath Amon
eheh rokh is quite uber a passive tank with 1-2 invul and 2-3 large extenders... 200+ km range... decent dps...



Rokh doesn't passive tank nearly as well as a Ferox/Drake. Though I guess, it's okay for mission running... as far as large turrets are okay for mission running.


ehm i was speaking about fleet, that is its supposed role... for mission running raven or even better CNR will be waaaaay better

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.13 08:26:00 - [611]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor
Of course it is. Kali is planned to come to TQ in 15 days, so... fat chance they are going to start fiddling with the ships now when there still are bugs in Kali. They can make changes, but they wont have time to really test them. So I think they wont.

This thread might be looked at later though, if they want to boost the ships in some patch.


Don't take my illusions. Sad

Berrik Radhok
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.11.13 10:36:00 - [612]
 

That abbadon plus logistics gang would lose horribly to the geddon gang.

Geddon gang instapops logistics, then concentrates firepower on the abbadons, abbadons pop a short time later.

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2006.11.13 11:17:00 - [613]
 

Rokh for PvE shouldn't be a problem - 350mm railguns seem to work fine (antimatter up to 33km optimal with average skills hehe).
Passive tank works great for PvE but I sure hope an active tank is viable with rigs and/or a cap recharger or something...

FalconHawk
Amarr
Shadow Rebellion
Posted - 2006.11.13 11:28:00 - [614]
 

im not even sure that 1 support ship for a fully fitted abaddon will be enough, maybe someone can calculate the cap needs of a full 8 tachy (or maybe even 6-7)? i suck at it Embarassed

Lucre
STK Scientific
Black-Out
Posted - 2006.11.13 11:33:00 - [615]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor
Of course it is. Kali is planned to come to TQ in 15 days, so... fat chance they are going to start fiddling with the ships now when there still are bugs in Kali. They can make changes, but they wont have time to really test them. So I think they wont.



QFT

However it should probably also be noted most of the criticisms and suggestions made in this thread were first put forward *way* back when these tier 3 ships were first described - and then again when the first detail on them was known. So whilst the "not enough time to test them" excuse might be valid for response to this particular thread, it doesn't really excuse them from still having these (frankly) broken and/or pointless ships still coming into the game in this form.

Meanwhile, the next time anyone says on the forum (as many have) that "The time to complain about the ships is when they're on the test server"... Sad

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.13 11:48:00 - [616]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 13/11/2006 11:51:27

Originally by: Lucre

Meanwhile, the next time anyone says on the forum (as many have) that "The time to complain about the ships is when they're on the test server"... Sad


Yeah. People have given the devs their opinions on the ships since the first test stats got introduced, and they arent that different today compared to when we first saw them. They moved a slot from medium to low on some ships, and the other way around, but the basic core of the ships remain very much the same.

At least they managed to create new battlecruisers that rock peoples socks off. :) Every single one of them is really, really good and now people are just arguing about which one beats who, and why they dont like it. But they ARE all good.

And by the way... Tuxford didnt understand how people could obsess about test stats that was 2 month old. I dont think thats a mystery anymore. Wink

Trance Gemmini
Posted - 2006.11.13 14:33:00 - [617]
 

Edited by: Trance Gemmini on 13/11/2006 14:34:56
Personally, I think the Abaddon is CCP's way of saying, 'look all you Amarr whiners, it could be worse. So stop crying about your ships/lasers.'

OK... OK.. CCP, we get the point. Can we please have a ship that's worth a **** now?? Can we finally have our primary weapons and thier cap needs looked at?

It's great being Amarr, Ain't it? Shocked

Zixxa
Posted - 2006.11.13 19:00:00 - [618]
 

MWD is required
a) to quickly relocate ships on positions
b) to quickly get out from the bubbles
c) to tank missiles.
d) because commander ordered MWD
More than enough reason to fit MWD. So it is must.

Now, I will repeat very slowly
1. Most important thing for the fleet ships is alpha-strike. Rokh is worse than Tempest, Mega, Apoc, Abaddon.
2. Passive shield tanking is not important in fleet battle - any ships lives until locked. If you do not believe me, than look at awesome video from BoB. Or ask RA to show you what is the fleet.
3. DC for passive tanking(for anybody thinking that passive tanking is good) is much more useful than whole Rokh shield tanking bonus.
4. Long range of Rokh possibly will be useful. Sometimes. Somewhere. But it is less useful now than one simple and stupid 5% damage bonus of Megathron.

Rokh is good ship in some situations, but I do not see anything exceptional. Low dps and miserable alpha-strike are not compensated by 50% long range and 25% more resistant shield.

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.13 19:19:00 - [619]
 

You're only looking at a small part of the game, Zixxa. Don't assume everyone does the same that you do.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.11.13 21:11:00 - [620]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 13/11/2006 22:11:40
Zixxa, while it may be true that every ship lives until its locked, by increasing the number of ships that need to activate on you to destroy you, the next target on the list will live longer due to weapon recycle time. This increases the amount of time the fleet stays alive, not nessesarily the amount of time each ship stays alive.

If tanking is irrelevent in a fleet, then so is DPS.

edit:

Getting out of bubbles is the only legitimate use of MWD that you mentioned. Ship repositioning is typically done via warp in/warp out manuvers.

No one really needs to tank missiles in a fleet [and remember, according to yourself, tanks are useless in fleets anyway] because at fleet engagement distance they can warp out and warp back in before the missiles hit them in order to tank them[I.E. not get hit at all].

Bubbles are about the only issue and if you are in one in a fleet, an MWD wont you really save you more than a better fitting would.

The point is that the Rokh really doesnt need an MWD, it is nice to have one, but it is by no means a nessesity.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.13 22:37:00 - [621]
 

people should stop trying to discuss with obvious trolls.
its hard enough for the devs to ignore the 21 pages we have here already without us cluttering it up more.


Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2006.11.13 23:45:00 - [622]
 

The one thing that makes the Rokh outstanding in my eyes is that it enables fleet combat for people without T2 guns. Some T2-crazed people always ignore that there are vast numbers of people who can't use T2 guns, all those were pretty much excluded from fleet combat until now. Even if I don't care much for it, it is good to at least have the option now without training the long T2 large gun road.
The dps won't be all that hot, but at least it is better than 0. And the Mega's damage bonus isn't all that helpful when you cannot hit your target, is it?

Azerrad InExile
Posted - 2006.11.14 09:24:00 - [623]
 

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
The one thing that makes the Rokh outstanding in my eyes is that it enables fleet combat for people without T2 guns. Some T2-crazed people always ignore that there are vast numbers of people who can't use T2 guns, all those were pretty much excluded from fleet combat until now. Even if I don't care much for it, it is good to at least have the option now without training the long T2 large gun road.
The dps won't be all that hot, but at least it is better than 0. And the Mega's damage bonus isn't all that helpful when you cannot hit your target, is it?


Don't worry... it won't take too long before there are a vast number of people who can't use T2 fitted Rokhs that are excluded from fleet combat.

Lucre
STK Scientific
Black-Out
Posted - 2006.11.14 11:07:00 - [624]
 

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
The one thing that makes the Rokh outstanding in my eyes is that it enables fleet combat for people without T2 guns. Some T2-crazed people always ignore that there are vast numbers of people who can't use T2 guns


You also omit the fact that a rack of T2 425s currently costs more than a Megathron does! (Hint to devs, this might give a clue that rails and lasers are not well balanced atm!) A Rokh doesn't just give (post-nerf) T2 ranges to T1 users, it gives T2 ranges at T1 prices...

Now if the Abaddon did the same, it might almost be worth flying...

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2006.11.14 11:11:00 - [625]
 

With the range and damage reduction in T2 ammo, the Rokh's advantages become even more pronounced. It will indeed out range and outdamage the Megathron, and in so doing become the premier fleet ship. The difference in range between Iron and Spike will now only be 20%. With the Rokh's range bonus, it will be able to hit *farther* using iron ammo than a Mega using spike. It won't do as much damage, but it will still be able to hit. And this is just for the T1 guns. The T2 guns will be able to out-range *and* out damage the Mega.

Another key point is lock time. Zixxa is correct that an MWD is very valuable in fleet, for all the reasons that he stated. Knowing this, it will still be very easy to fit a fleet Rokh with a full rack of T2 425s and an MWD and all the other requisite mods with one key difference over the Megathron: it will be able to fit more sensor boosters. Faster lock time is key. More rounds on target faster = more ships out of action when seconds will make the difference between living and ending up in a clonebay.

The Mega *might* have been able to compete if T2 Spike ammo was left alone and not nerfed. As it sits now, the Rokh's range bonus will be even more dramatic and we'll have no choice but to use it for fleet.

Perry
Amarr
The X-Trading Company
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.14 12:00:00 - [626]
 

The day I need a Caldari Noobmobile to compete is the day i cancel my 3 1/2 year old Account (+beta).

I fear it's the 28th of this month.

Lobo Noturno
Posted - 2006.11.14 12:11:00 - [627]
 

Let's make it simple:

If someone thinks the rokh needs to be nerfed, state your idea for the nerf and why it's needed. Otherwise, there is no point saying it isn't overpowered or that it is. Stats tell me it's not overpowered, and it's main advantage right now is that it fits among the other two caldari BSs better than any other of the tier 3 BS.

I am tired of messages discussing the rokh. I really believe it's the one BS that is right... The Devs need to know exactly what each new BS should be used for, state that clearly, and let us test them. Right now, no one seems to be sure on how the Abbadon, or the Maelstron should be used. And the Hyperion is not clearly an upgrade over the megathron as a blaster ship...

Perry
Amarr
The X-Trading Company
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.14 12:37:00 - [628]
 

I got the impression, that we gave our opinions clear and easy to understand. CCP is ignoring them, so why bother anymore? But ofcourse you could be right and one last uber post with super clear facts changes all. But why do Caldari get their good tier 3 and all others need to do math?

We want:

Amarr: Good skirmish BS for short range solo/gang/support(ew), eg big Arbitrator, Missleship, mix of it, we dont care as long as we dont get a third subpar fleet bs.

Gallente: Either a true Blastership with uber close range gank, or Support BS with many medslots and EW Bonus (Big Celestis).

Minmatar: Uber AC Boat with speed, many turrets medium tank, and perhaps adjustments to Typhoon/Tempest to become Support/Long Range Ships, eg TP Bonus for Typhoon to use Missles far more effective (perhaps 5 missleslots) and the Tempest gets a bit more grid for those 1400mm.

But it will get ignored and we get a third Crap Amarr ship, a second Blasterboat thats alomost a copy of Megathron, and a "i dont know what im good for" BS

Laughing

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.14 12:43:00 - [629]
 

Edited by: Ath Amon on 14/11/2006 13:11:49
@lobo noturno
again? :P

ewwww ok...

here the graph
rokh is ubahhhh :P

as you can see the rokh to be totally superior to the mael is alredy using a less mod...

eventually it can go even with 4 mods and be still superior to male...
(so it is alredy saving 1-2 mods)

rokh targetting range with 1 sensor booster should alredy be around 200km

mael with 1 sensor booster should be around 160km

so ipotetically the rokh can chose to save another mod...

rokh have higher base dps and 25% res to all...

so we have an average of 2 mods saved and 25% res = it both outrange and outtank the mael

as you see also the dps difference between the 2 ships is not that huge... 7% difference

abaddon is a bit different... it have huge dps potential but also need 4 mods + rigs to sustain its fire

how to fix the rokh?

2 ways...

1)nerf the ubah rokh!!!
give it 6 turrets instead of 8.. this way its dps will be way lower, maybe lower enought to justify the use of other ships in a fleet, also caldari are not a turret race... i think we can say they "split turrets" as much as minnies "split missiles" so, storywise it makes also sense.

2)boost other long range ships
this is my fav as arty and lasers are also totally inferior to rails...

speaking about arty here the graph...
arty is crap

so first step is to boost arty stats... my fav solution is with a 40-50% range bonus but even a dps boost of 25% can work

second step is to change mael boost bonus in a passive tank one as a 10% shield hps/lv

comparsion graph with increased range1
comparsion graph with increased range2

for laser, simply reduce the beam/tachs cap usage by a 25-30% and eventually boost optimal a bit

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2006.11.14 13:56:00 - [630]
 

Nerf the Rokh? Why? I don't think alot of people want that. The Rokh is the only Tier3 battleship that does its job properly. It is different from the other Caldari BBs, yet does its job with good, maybe even outstanding performance. No need for a nerf, it is a shining example of the ideal Tier3 battleship imho.

Most don't want the Rokh nerfed, but the other Tier3s boosted to do the same, not the current same old and maybe even worse approach we see in the Abaddon, Maelstrom and Hyperion...


Pages: first : previous : ... 17 18 19 20 [21] 22 23 24 25 ... : last (31)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only