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Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2006.11.11 13:24:00 - [571]
 

Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 11/11/2006 13:25:13
Originally by: Aphotic Raven
Hey did i not read in a dev blog and watch a video interview in which the devs said that they were looking at bringing fights, especially fleets "closer together" and talking about getting the love on up close and such... i really dont see how introducing some crappy sniping ships, and boosting caldari a bunch will have any use at all...

Really do we need more rail/arty/laser long range **** going on?



Well, even if the range comes down, a Rokh now with T1 modules and T1 weapon/ammo out ranges every other ship in the game. If you cut everyones range by x amount, it is still going to out range every other ship in the game.

I would not worry about the range reduction until they put something forward. I mean, look at the longer battles they wanted. The most simplistic way to do it was to increase HP, so they did. Now we have to figure out how to live with a cap nerf and alpha nerf.



Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.11 13:30:00 - [572]
 

Edited by: Ath Amon on 11/11/2006 14:09:41
Edited by: Ath Amon on 11/11/2006 13:30:38
for abaddon i'm not that sure it is a so bad ship

for support midrange i should be a very good ship if fitted with a passive tank...

for long range i have some doubts but taking rigs into account the situation seem to be way better

this is a graph with just 3 mods (2dmg and 1 tracking)

graph

here a config that can be used

8 tachs t2

2 cap rec 2
1 sensor booster
1 tracking comp

2 heatshinks 2
2 rcu 2
2 power relays
1 1600 rolled tungsten or a 3rd pewer relay

2 laser cap reduction rigs (t1)

with 3 power relay there is not cany cap comsumption
with this config the cap produced is the same of the one used by guns, so it is possible to drop a power relay for a plate or a tracking enhancer

comparing it to rokh is not that good, but compared to the mael probably is a better ship

Zarch AlDain
GK inc.
Posted - 2006.11.11 13:33:00 - [573]
 

It is very hard to effectively passive tank a battleship as to do so you fit oversized extenders, and battleships do not have oversize extenders

The ferox is good because it has inately high resistance, and enough powergrid that you can fit a lot of large shield extenders.

A battleship gets the same number of large shield extenders (no option for extra large) and has a much worse base recharge rate so the effective increase is lower.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.11.11 13:35:00 - [574]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 11/11/2006 13:37:26
2 cap recharges, 3 cap rigs, 3 RCUs and a tank that consists of 1 1600mm plate for a ship that shoots at 150 km?

Why dont i fit an armageddon with 7 tachs, 4 RCU's, 2 Damage mods, 2 1600 plates, and 3 gun damage rigs?

1 sensor boosters/2 tracking computers in the mids

Same range, more damage, more tank, less cap use.

Better tracking too.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.11 13:55:00 - [575]
 

Edited by: Ath Amon on 11/11/2006 14:09:25
rigs atm are stacking with mods so 2 dmg + 3 dmg rigs will be like to have a bit more than 3 dmg mods

for lasers, and expecially in a long range config imo cap usage reduction is the best choice

so the damage difference between the 2 ships is not extreme, tank will be equal or even better for the abaddon due to higher base armor and 25% resists (33% more hps)

cap usage is not that different with the 2 cap relay abbaddon

and as said that was using t1 rigs, with t2 the abaddon should get more advantage over other amarr ships


also i'm not saying that abaddon is fine as it is now, as you see the rokh is quite superior to it, but for sure is quite near to the mael (that have its problem too)

uops also my bad but it was with 2 cap reduction rigs not 3 i'll recheck with 3 and repost an eventual fit

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.11.11 14:10:00 - [576]
 

If rigs are stacking with mods, then its a bug. And, according to at least one independent account, had been fixed after you tested it.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.11 14:30:00 - [577]
 

mmm actually i tested it in the last public build used and was working like that

checked with 3 t1 cap rigs and situation should be quite good

indeed is it possible to fit a 3/2 mod config + 1 plate and have a very good cap comsumption, with t2 probably there will be space for another mod

also i agree that atm there is much confusion about rigs, i can be wrong too and/or maybe rigs will change again until release.

Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2006.11.11 14:41:00 - [578]
 

Originally by: Ath Amon
for abaddon i'm not that sure it is a so bad ship

for support midrange i should be a very good ship if fitted with a passive tank...

for long range i have some doubts but taking rigs into account the situation seem to be way better



The only problem is that there is not enough cap with this ship and not enough hold to carry enough injectory charges. If you try for damage, you run out of cap in 2 minutes or less (all charges used) or if you try to tank.. you cannot use any large energy turret weapons or you run out of tank in minutes.

The geddon does better damage for less cost when drones are added in. The geddon also is less demanding on the cap since it has a damage bonus, not a RoF which eats cap. The Apoc with the hugh cap tanks better and can still fire weapons.

Anyway you look at it, the Abaddon is neither a great tanker or a great ganker. The 50% boost only makes this worse.


Mastin Dragonfly
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2006.11.11 15:59:00 - [579]
 

Originally by: Miri Tirzan
The geddon also is less demanding on the cap since it has a damage bonus, not a RoF which eats cap.


Geddon has 5% RoF and 10% cap use bonuses, not damage. Unless that got changed on testserver?

Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2006.11.11 16:09:00 - [580]
 

Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly
Originally by: Miri Tirzan
The geddon also is less demanding on the cap since it has a damage bonus, not a RoF which eats cap.


Geddon has 5% RoF and 10% cap use bonuses, not damage. Unless that got changed on testserver?


Your right my bad. But the cap bonus on the geddon still makes it more sustainable than the abaddon.


Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.11 17:02:00 - [581]
 

actually i see the abaddon as different than geddon or apoc

i see it more as a support (gank) ship for midrange combat or a longrange tach platform
(if not fitted with ACs then it get a huge tank :P)

but mostly my point was that atm the ship seem not that good because of its huge cap compsumption but, most of the time, this evaluation is made whitout taking in account new rigs

if rigs will share stack penalities with mods then this ship can get a huge boost from them as, maybe it will never be a gank + active tank, but in fleet it can have both better dps and tankage than a geddon.

all of this still keeping in account that atm rails are a superior weapon system than both beams and arties and so the rokh will always be a superior ship

FalconHawk
Amarr
Shadow Rebellion
Posted - 2006.11.11 17:05:00 - [582]
 

sure itīs possible to fit an abaddon with cap stuff like mad to make sure you can hold cap for 5 mins, but you waste alot of slots. Other ships have no prob to fit turrets/launchers that deal the same amount of damage as abaddon and run them without killing there cap in seconds and they still can use the rigs slots and other slots to fit some damage mods or tank.
wasting 7-8 slots for cap recharge and turrets cap usuage is simply insane when the other races bs can use these slots still for tank and damage mods.

Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2006.11.11 17:17:00 - [583]
 

Originally by: FalconHawk
sure itīs possible to fit an abaddon with cap stuff like mad to make sure you can hold cap for 5 mins, but you waste alot of slots. Other ships have no prob to fit turrets/launchers that deal the same amount of damage as abaddon and run them without killing there cap in seconds and they still can use the rigs slots and other slots to fit some damage mods or tank.
wasting 7-8 slots for cap recharge and turrets cap usuage is simply insane when the other races bs can use these slots still for tank and damage mods.


Here! Here! Right to the the point. If all your rig and low/mid slots are being taken up with cap regen modules then you dont get space for anything else.

Atar
Perpetua Umbra
Brotherhood Of Steel
Posted - 2006.11.11 17:22:00 - [584]
 

I have to admit from my testing the Abaddon dosen't have the cap it needs, I'm not a big flier of Amarr, heck let alone BSs, but there is definitly a problem there.

For the most part I'm not that impressed with any of the new BSs they sure don't seem like anything tier3. I was hoping for at least a down and dirty, close up fighter, the maelstrom is a real dissapoitment to me. Not everyone in EVE fights in fleet battles, the Tempest already excelled at that, I guess I was looking for a overgrown Stabber. The maelstrom should have been a heavy armor tanker with AC bonuses, but oh well.

For the most part the best new BS is the Rokh, I can fit blasters and have decent range, a decent tank and damage; hell with the rails, too many snipers now.

Enough with the snipe and gank, we have the extra 50% stats so lets us get upclose and personal and really battle it out.


Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.11 17:59:00 - [585]
 

in fact i agree with that but also i think that an amarr fleet ship to be functional should need to fit cap rechargers as its base dps is way higher than other weapons...

i'll do a comparsion with arties because lasers and arty are imo better balanced that lasers vs rails (overpowered :P)

if you look at the graph i posted above you will see that the abbaddon curve and the mael one are not that umbalanced... abaddon do way more damage while the mael have a better range.

now if you look at modules used you will see that mael was using 6 mods (3 tracking and 3 dmg) while the abaddon just 3 (2 dmg and 1 tracking)

this should mean that (more or less), in the current situation, an abaddon to be balanced with a mael damagewise use 3 less modules

to balance that in my opinion is necessary for the abaddon to use such modules for cap purpose, if the ship will have just a few cap problems that a single booster/recharger is needed then the abaddon can fit other 2 damage/tracking modules and totally outperform the mael.

to that imo i think we should add the rig efficency if a particular rig will have an high efficency (as could be the case of cap consumption ones) here that the modules needs can be a bit more severe.

all of this discussion to say that imo a ship like the abaddon wich have 2 good bonuses for fleet action (+rof +res) need to use some of its rigs or mods to balance its cap.

now is this overall balanced?...

no Razz as the rokh is clearly a better ship, but this imo is a more general problem about beams vs rails, not of this ship itself...

the ship seem good to me, good slots, good bonuses, armor tank... it have everything it need... then if the cap usage is so severe to make it not comparable to a rokh the problem can be elsewhere...

beams imo need a good cap reduction, as much arties need a range or dps boost, this not to remove the cap usage but to bring "necessary cap modules"/damage curve more inline to mods/curves of other ships, in particular by the rokh.

FalconHawk
Amarr
Shadow Rebellion
Posted - 2006.11.11 18:34:00 - [586]
 

noone said that abaddon should need no cap mods, amarr ship always needed cap mods, but to use 1/3 of all slots for cap recharge is simply a tat too much

Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2006.11.11 19:07:00 - [587]
 

But the problem is that the Abaddon does not have the cap or the cargo space for injector charges to last more than 2 minutes in combat.

The geddon has the same bonus and with skills only uses 50% of the laser cap per turret. With the geddon having an extra low slot, it can put an EANM2 in and have the same resists that the 7 low adaddon has. The geddon has more drone bay, enough for five heavy drones, which the abaddon does not have. Damage wise, the geddon with 5 heavy drones will out damage the abaddon at close range and be only slightly less effective at max range. The extra turret on the abaddon just helps it run out of cap faster.

XFreedomX
Posted - 2006.11.11 21:01:00 - [588]
 

IMO, fleet BS are not suppose to operate in a vacume. Abaddon seems fine to me, with what everyone is saying, its biggest problem is CAP. Isn't that what logistic ships are for?

Cividari
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2006.11.11 21:32:00 - [589]
 

Havent read all of this and just quickly just browsed through the last couple of pages. I saw some people claiming MWD is "useless" in fleet setups so I thought I would mention some highly possible scenarios where its a must have.

1: You jump into a bubbled gatecamp so you MWD to outside the bubbles range.
2: You warp your fleet in at 180km from the enemy and a dictor manages to drop a bubble on you (it is bound to happen if their dictors are any good) so once again you just use the MWD for a cycle or two in order to get out of the bubble.
3: Same as 2 but the enemy warps in on you, if you now dont get a dictor bubble right on top of you your enemy simply sucks ugh.
4: You get bounced off a gate while your fleet is moving so instead of beeing left behind/forcing the whole fleet to wait for you, you just mwd back to the gate.

That is why MWDs imho are a must have on fleet battleships and are one of the first mods I fit while working on setups. Oh and sorry for going abit offtopic.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.11 21:50:00 - [590]
 

Originally by: XFreedomX
IMO, fleet BS are not suppose to operate in a vacume. Abaddon seems fine to me, with what everyone is saying, its biggest problem is CAP. Isn't that what logistic ships are for?


And the reason you would take 1 logistic ship and 1 abaddon instead of 2 geddons is?

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2006.11.11 22:35:00 - [591]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 11/11/2006 13:08:06
I am not sure the issue with a blaster boat that doesnt have a tracking bonus.

Blasters have the best tracking of any close range weapon to start with by a sifinicant amount.

Everyone running a blaster ship is going to web whatever they are shooting at anyway.

It will make a difference when shooting at frigs and cruisers, but not much against anything else aside from range with null[still much better than lasers at that range though, even without a tracking bonus, worse than AC's though].

Amarr arent made useless due to a tracking penalty [50% on conflag combined with 60% of the tracking of blasters], so im not really sure why a blasterboat, which will have more tracking than the laserboat is going to be obsolete from it.


I think he's right, if only for the reason that once you have a web on your opponent, and it's another BS, you can hit it pretty easy if both of you are dead still, which is usually the case after you get settled. It's the settling part that takes some skill to achieve in a precise manner.

That being said, I'd like to see the Hype get a 7.5% damage bonus and a 7.5% ROF bonus. Right now it can tank harder than a Mega due to it's rep bonus. The Hype needs to do damage, plain and simple. I also think that the Mega's tracking bonus is largely wasted due to the whole concept of short/long range (read: fleet) combat.

Tracking simply isn't an issue in PVP. You either have the target webbed and you hit it, or you don't have it webbed and it's either out of range or you can't hit it anyway due to transversal. No amount of reasonable tracking bonus will help you hit an unwebbed target with large blasters at close range.

With fleet, who cares if you don't have tracking. The Rokh doesn't have any tracking bonus and I'm hitting BSs at 30-40km with transversal just fine. At 250km it's even less of an issue, even with Spike's tracking nerf.

The Hype is supposed to have superior cap reserves. It does not. It should be able to mwd into range, get point blank on a target and unload on it, kill it and then be able to mwd away and escape or continue to the next target. Right now all that happens is that it gets up close, after having been nossed for the last 15km by 3-4 heavy nos, opens fire, the damage is fully tanked by the target until there isn't any more cap for the Hype, and then it dies. Pointless.

The same issues are evident in the Abaddon only more so. Just give it a damage bonus already. ROF is the worst thing to add to a laser ship as a damage bonus.

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2006.11.11 22:37:00 - [592]
 

Originally by: XFreedomX
IMO, fleet BS are not suppose to operate in a vacume. Abaddon seems fine to me, with what everyone is saying, its biggest problem is CAP. Isn't that what logistic ships are for?


Not only do ships need to work for fleet, they need to work for solo and small gang pvp.

Dixon
Caldari
Hells Donkeys
Posted - 2006.11.11 22:48:00 - [593]
 

Originally by: murder one
I'd like to see the Hype get a 7.5% damage bonus and a 7.5% ROF bonus.

Laughing

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.11.12 02:27:00 - [594]
 

Originally by: murder one


That being said, I'd like to see the Hype get a 7.5% damage bonus and a 7.5% ROF bonus. Right now it can tank harder than a Mega due to it's rep bonus. The Hype needs to do damage, plain and simple. I also think that the Mega's tracking bonus is largely wasted due to the whole concept of short/long range (read: fleet) combat.




And people say amarr ask for too much.

That is a 37.5% damage bonus and a 37.5% RoF bonus. Or a 37.5% damage bonus and a 60% damage bonus from RoF. All in all, that is a 120% damage bonus for the ship [compared to 25% for a Megathron].

And the Hyperion has 8 turrets opposed to the Mega's 7. This would make the Hyperion do 101.1% more damage than the Megathron at targets that arent under its transversal.

Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: XFreedomX
IMO, fleet BS are not suppose to operate in a vacume. Abaddon seems fine to me, with what everyone is saying, its biggest problem is CAP. Isn't that what logistic ships are for?


And the reason you would take 1 logistic ship and 1 abaddon instead of 2 geddons is?


Because you were dumb. That or your friend wasnt skilled enough to fly a BS well.

As for logistics ships.

Logistics ships only function if they wont get called primary in a fleet battle, and they are relativly useless outside of a fleet battle due to the same problem. As well, most ships dont benefit much from logisitics ships unless in a passive role [its sitting at the safe spot repperring passivly tanked shield/armor tankers that warp to it], and unless they are maxamized to work with a logistics ship.


The only time a logistics ship can be beneficial is when it cant be hit at all[because they are so fragile] essentialy, which means that they need enough range to be significantly out of lock range from the enemy fleet.

Which is only possible for Rokhs because no one else has the range to keep their logistics ships out of lock range.

Sonho
Posted - 2006.11.12 10:04:00 - [595]
 

Originally by: Dixon
Originally by: murder one
I'd like to see the Hype get a 7.5% damage bonus and a 7.5% ROF bonus.

Laughing


LaughingIndeed .....

How about the hype getting 3 bonuses the ones you said and the armour repairer? And the slot layout of 8/8/8. Rolling Eyes

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.12 11:01:00 - [596]
 

Here's a deal, you don't do generalizations and I won't do generalizations.

That's two degrees of acting like arses removed from the world, only countless degrees left.

The problem with the Hyperion is and will ALWAYS be that it is a Megathron Mk.II nothing else. The developer team needs to decide, which of the two is going to be a blaster boat, and which is not - then take it from there. And I beg any developer reading this: don't make one of them a "fleet" ship, every race needs their own concepts they don't need to be able to do everything.

Bazan Kor
STK Scientific
Black-Out
Posted - 2006.11.12 11:09:00 - [597]
 

I agree Ithildin, I did some playing about with fittings yesterday and the way I see it is that although the Hyp does less damage than the mega, due to the mega tracking bonus (this applies at long range and short range) its 8 turrets make up for it. Leaving it with simply a better tank.

I quite like having the potential to do anything with either ship though. I think editing stats to make one of the ships specifically a blaster boat is wrong. The way they are now the hyp is more suited to blasters because of its short locking range and higher speed but it can do a medium/long range role as well with a tank. I much prefer this idea to giving it a mwd bonus of something like that as it makes it useful in more than 1 area.

Armois Delgato
Mean Corp
Mean Coalition
Posted - 2006.11.12 16:33:00 - [598]
 

I know this has already been said but they really, really should make the baddon' a giant arbi or an affordable bhaalgorn... or just do that one idea with the tiering system of EW(or tertiary racerole)/racerole1/racerole2 as seen in that one idea.

A giant arbitrator would be kind've nice as one of our choices... the way it is looking I'll -still- be using my geddon for everything battleship come Kali.

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2006.11.12 17:28:00 - [599]
 

I tested the Rokh today... god average gunnery skills

8 325mm Railgun I
XL SB, amp, 3 Hardeners II, Tracking Computer
3 Magnetic Field Stabilizer II, 2 PDS II

only tested it on lv4 so far - guns are great... But I didn't have any cap whatsoever left to run the shield booster so had to jump off everytime I took too much damage :(

It's not like I can active tank well with cap power relays in low and not sure 4-5 PDS II is enough...

XFreedomX
Posted - 2006.11.12 18:24:00 - [600]
 

Posted - 2006.11.11 21:50:00 - [590] - Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally by: XFreedomX
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMO, fleet BS are not suppose to operate in a vacume. Abaddon seems fine to me, with what everyone is saying, its biggest problem is CAP. Isn't that what logistic ships are for?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



And the reason you would take 1 logistic ship and 1 abaddon instead of 2 geddons is?

Well... While I wouldn't take 1 logistic and 1 Abaddon over 2 geddon, I would take 4 Abaddon and 2 logistic over 6 geddon. The Abaddon can be equiped for Max dmg and Tank with no wasted slots used for CAP. Point here is there are ways to overcome deficiencies in a ship, Abadon fleets can be warped out to recharge and back in to re-engage if needed.

As for logistic ships been called primary first, that only shows how powerful they are if left alone. The way around that is to move them farther behind the main fleet. A decent Amarr logistic pilot can have a CAP transfer range over 40km, assuming Abadon's are setup for long distance, that should put the logistics atleast 40km outside the optimal of the geddans. With the upcomming changes to fleet organization in Kali, it should make managing gangs of logistic ship alot easier.


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