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haq aan
Minmatar
Hauling hogs
Posted - 2006.11.09 00:14:00 - [511]
 

Its 3:40 am here,..and i spend almost 3 hours readind this thread and its related links.
So please, for the sake of god, do not try to make Maelstorm a better ship then it is now, by switching its bonus to Shield HP.!
That ll definitely wont make it balanced,..but make the problem completely out of track.

A lot of solutions posted in this forum , as the ships current role (which is a fleet Alpha dealer,with better survive abilities(!)) accepted and agreed by everyone.

But the main problem of Maelstorm is its Role.
Minmatar already have a fleet ship (Tempest),..and already have a split weapon platform (Phoon = versality (?)).
So there s no reasonable explanation for giving a better fleet BS.
I remember the time when Ásgeir first introduced the concepts of all tier 3 BS 's.And the ships were designed assuming their probable roles.

Caldari = Long range Rail.
Gallente = Fast Blaster boat.
Amarr = Drone Boat.
Minmatar = Fast AC boat with EW.

I am not sure what u guyz seing when u looking theese ships models but Maelstorm is definitely looks like a fast AC boat.
If its gonna be a damn slow Fleet tanker and Alpha striker,..then make its model again.
(I know we cant decide ships roles by just looking their models,..But sometimes answer may already be lying there)

So I totally agree theese suggestions :

-ROKH : Drop 1 turret HP - Or restrict its bonus just for rails (otherwise Caldari ll rule about blasters too)

-ABADDON : Make it a Drone boat as it meant to be.

-MAELSTORM : Reduce its mass.
Increase Velocity to 150 or 160m/s
8-5-6 layout
%5 ROF and %5 shield resist (or %7.5 ar. rep)

-TEMPEST : Switch layout to 8-6-5
Add 1 more turret HP (to keep up with overall Hitpoint boost and other fleet BS 's)

Best Regards,

Haq aan
Alektorophobia

PS: Do not boost Minmatar..Balance it.







Ryo Jang
Central Defiance
Insurgency
Posted - 2006.11.09 01:50:00 - [512]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Ryo Jang

i dont particularly care about it being just another laser bs. thats what they are for! if you want EW, thats what your cruiser wingmates are for! and that still doesnt stop you from fitting any form of EW and still using it fairly effectively, for instance, i quite regularly use a target painter on my geddon.


so you think our tier 3 bs should really just be a copy of the geddon/apoc with slightly better stats then?

thats exactly what im saying. we do damage. we tank. thats what we do. want ew? go gallente or caldari. and slightly better stats? it has 12,000 armor! for christs sake.

Ratzap
Gallente
InterGalactic Corp.
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2006.11.09 01:52:00 - [513]
 

I just took a Rokh for a spin on an L4. Tank is fabulous, I mean 15.5k shield at 84% em/therm is not shabby. DPS and tracking isn't great but 8 x 425 protos fits with PG to spare, AM gives an optimal of 50km with BS 4.

The lag on SISI is making it difficult to test much at any reasonable speed but for what it was intended as, the Rokh is better than it needs to be. No comprimise necessary to fit a full rack of 425s + a tank. I used:

8 x 425 proto
amp, 4 x t2 hardner, c-5 XL boost
4 x PDS2, best DC

Enough PG left that I could probably drop 2 PDS for a track enhancer and mag stab but I'm stuck trying to jump atm so I can't say yet ;)

Ratzap

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.09 02:44:00 - [514]
 

Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 09/11/2006 02:50:34
Originally by: Ryo Jang
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne

so you think our tier 3 bs should really just be a copy of the geddon/apoc with slightly better stats then?

thats exactly what im saying. we do damage. we tank. thats what we do. want ew? go gallente or caldari. and slightly better stats? it has 12,000 armor! for christs sake.


a sound theory. i have a few questions though:

- what if our predictable damage wasnt all that superior compared to the other races to make up for the lack of versatility??
- what if our tanks werent all that much better than those of other races to make up for the lack of versatility?
- what if not being completely predictable is slightly better for pvp compared to increased stats?

- what if i dont want to use gallente or caldari ew but amarrian ew instead?
- if a higher tier should result in slightly better stats why not turn the rokh into a raven with more shield then?
- even better why dont we take 1 ship in each class and race and change all the others to become copies with different stats according to their tier? for crusiers we could have 4 mallers with steadily increasig armor hitpoints for example. the caldari get 4 caracals only they get more shield instead of armor.


also: how much armor do the geddon and apoc have on the testserver?


Razor Jaxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.11.09 03:40:00 - [515]
 

Well, well, back in EvE after a bit of an extended hiatus to get a sneak peek at Kali features & ships, I finally got to fly a Maelstrom around for a test drive, and honestly (and I'm a strong supporter of Minnie ship improvement) I don't know why people are dissing that ship.

The native shield boosting bonus, combined with proper mods, implants and what not, and with the global HP boost, turn the Maelstrom into a formidable AC platform. Granted, it's a bit slow and could use an extra medslot for a scram/disrupt (unless you remove the AB/MWD), but its tanking ability is simply amazing, and will please all BS skirmish pilots out there.

Yes, you'll need a cap injector - just as every other close range BS out there - which shorten its battle presence, and yes, you'll need decent implants/boosters and/or faction mods to turn it into the real beast it can be, but nonetheless, the Maelstrom is a monster which I, for one, am looking forward to fly, even in its present state.

Nifel
PAX Technologies
Posted - 2006.11.09 04:11:00 - [516]
 

Originally by: Razor Jaxx
Well, well, back in EvE after a bit of an extended hiatus to get a sneak peek at Kali features & ships, I finally got to fly a Maelstrom around for a test drive, and honestly (and I'm a strong supporter of Minnie ship improvement) I don't know why people are dissing that ship.

The native shield boosting bonus, combined with proper mods, implants and what not, and with the global HP boost, turn the Maelstrom into a formidable AC platform. Granted, it's a bit slow and could use an extra medslot for a scram/disrupt (unless you remove the AB/MWD), but its tanking ability is simply amazing, and will please all BS skirmish pilots out there.

Yes, you'll need a cap injector - just as every other close range BS out there - which shorten its battle presence, and yes, you'll need decent implants/boosters and/or faction mods to turn it into the real beast it can be, but nonetheless, the Maelstrom is a monster which I, for one, am looking forward to fly, even in its present state.



It's not a pants bonus for an AC-boat, although it misses a 7th medslot to be truly great in that department. The problem is that Tux wanted (still wants?) it to be a shield-tanking artillery boat. And for that an active bonus like the shield boost bonus isn't all that great. A passive bonus like HP or reistances are much better for a shield tanking artillery boat as it can both be actively tanked or just passively tanked.

The much-vaunted minmatar flexibility is better supported with a HP/resistance bonus as well. Plus I'd rather like a shield-tanked artillery-beast of a ship compared to an AC-boat :p.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.09 06:40:00 - [517]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 09/11/2006 06:40:41
Originally by: Aphotic Raven

Can i please get a link to a page with the exact and correct current stats/descriptions of these ships????


This is still accurate afaik, except for the Myrmidon which now has 6 lows, 6 turrets, 6 highs.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.09 06:50:00 - [518]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 09/11/2006 07:03:08
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 09/11/2006 06:53:42

Ever noticed how NOBODY wants a shield tanked artillery boat btw? I have no idea why ccp decided to create such a thing just without anyone actually expressing the need for one.

I seriously cant get over a shield boost bonus and a rof bonus on a slow artillery ship for medium range with gimped alpha strike. Its... just silly tbh.

* Good passive recharge rate - cool, lets add an active shield tanking bonus to make it "versatile"!
* Looks speedy - cool, lets make it pretty slow to surprise the enemy!
* Designed as a artillery boat - cool, lets give it rof bonus like a autocannons ship!
* Designed as a artillery boat - cool, lets make sure its alpha strike is not better than the apoc with artillery!
* Designed as a artillery boat - 50% more hp to all ships, 5% more dmg to artillery (maybe). Sounds pretty good, guys!

Laughing... Ok, I think ive ranted enough. But DO something ffs. It didnt take long to try and fix the Myrmidon, so lets get started on this boat too, shall we?

I mean, all you really need to do is to give up on the shield tanked artillery concept, and give it some speed to make good with autocannons. Keep the shield if you like, we will just put dampeners and stuff in those slots, thats fine. Active boosting in Kali? Dont think so.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.09 07:14:00 - [519]
 

Edited by: Ath Amon on 09/11/2006 07:17:08
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 09/11/2006 06:53:42

Ever noticed how NOBODY wants a shield tanked artillery boat btw? I have no idea why ccp decided to create such a thing just without anyone actually expressing the need for one.


i want it Razz

Originally by: Jim McGregor

I seriously cant get over a shield boost bonus and a rof bonus on a slow artillery ship for medium range with gimped alpha strike. Its... just silly tbh.


shield boost bonus is bad, i think everyone, Tux included agree with that... if it should be a shield tank arty it should have +shield hp or +res... as +res is alredy "picked" by rokh we are left with shield hp

this ship will never be a good arty platform with shield boost bonus, but it doesn't mean it can't never be a good arty platform with another bonus.


Originally by: Jim McGregor

* Good passive recharge rate - cool, lets add an active shield tanking bonus to make it "versatile"!


eheh i agree

Originally by: Jim McGregor

* Looks speedy - cool, lets make it pretty slow to surprise the enemy!


Laughing even if for an arty platform speed is not that important

Originally by: Jim McGregor

* Designed as a artillery boat - cool, lets give it rof bonus like a autocannons ship!
* Designed as a artillery boat - cool, lets make sure its alpha strike is not better than the apoc with artillery!


in this i totally disagree... alpha is now useless, the dps bonus will make not alpha viable and will gimp even more its dps... with damage instead of rof the ship will do more dps and have more range mounting rails Rolling Eyes

ROF bonus is needed to proj because it add around 13% more dps than a similar +damage bonus helping to balance the poor dps of proj (expecially now that alpha is no more viable)

Originally by: Jim McGregor

* Designed as a artillery boat - 50% more hp to all ships, 5% more dmg to artillery (maybe). Sounds pretty good, guys!

Laughing... Ok, I think ive ranted enough. But DO something ffs. It didnt take long to try and fix the Myrmidon, so lets get started on this boat too, shall we?



as said in other posts imo the problem of mael are 2... the bad shield bonus (ship problem) and the total crapness of arty (weapon problem)

>graph1<

>graph 2<

this is the actual arty situation... as long as arty will not be able to compete against rails there will be no mean to make a good arty bs (at least comparable to rokh)...

fix this situation (giving to arty +20-25% dps or +40-50% optimal range boost) and switch shield boost to shield hp and the mael will become a very effective arty platform

skillbuyer
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.11.09 08:34:00 - [520]
 

Originally by: haq aan

-ROKH : Drop 1 turret HP - Or restrict its bonus just for rails (otherwise Caldari ll rule about blasters too)



You really want to fit a MWD on the slowest, heaviest, biggest signature ship around? Better pick your fights carefully then...

Ryo Jang
Central Defiance
Insurgency
Posted - 2006.11.09 08:49:00 - [521]
 

Edited by: Ryo Jang on 09/11/2006 08:52:12
Edited by: Ryo Jang on 09/11/2006 08:49:59
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
- what if our predictable damage wasnt all that superior compared to the other races to make up for the lack of versatility??

well imo, it should be, to make up for it

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
- what if our tanks werent all that much better than those of other races to make up for the lack of versatility?

see above, ive always thought caldari should have stronger resists on shields and lower on armor, vice versa for amarr. gallente and minmatar get the middle ground here. of course, both of these arguments are for another thread.

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
- what if not being completely predictable is slightly better for pvp compared to increased stats?

of course. but youre talking about bonuses here, and they just dont matter when it comes to fitting your ship how YOU want it. sure, if you have weapons bonuses, then thats a good thing to invest in. but just because you dont have 5% more ecm strength per level, doesnt mean you cant have an ecm. you can do anything you like on any ship.

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
- what if i dont want to use gallente or caldari ew but amarrian ew instead?

then use them. noones telling you not to.

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
- if a higher tier should result in slightly better stats why not turn the rokh into a raven with more shield then?

caldari are innovators, amarr are traditional. its in the storyline.

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
- even better why dont we take 1 ship in each class and race and change all the others to become copies with different stats according to their tier? for crusiers we could have 4 mallers with steadily increasig armor hitpoints for example. the caldari get 4 caracals only they get more shield instead of armor.

now youre just being silly.

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
also: how much armor do the geddon and apoc have on the testserver?

armageddon: 7970
apocalypse: 9000

PSEWAR
Amarr
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2006.11.09 09:22:00 - [522]
 

Originally by: Ryo Jang

thats exactly what im saying. we do damage. we tank. thats what we do. want ew? go gallente or caldari. and slightly better stats? it has 12,000 armor! for christs sake.


Then it would be good if we at least could do damage and/or tank.
Not to say that we actually can not do more damage or tank better then other races.
Why can races that are not so specialized outdamage and/or outtank the Amarr.
In it's current state the Amarr ships have all the drawbacks of specialisation without the benefits of it.
Flexibility has to come at a cost!

But I think this discussion does not belong to the original Topic so to come back on Topic.

The Abaddon can neither do damage or tank as it simply runs out of cap to fast. Even without the HP increase you would have problems to kill anything with it.

Amira Silvermist
The Aegis Militia
Aegis Militia
Posted - 2006.11.09 09:50:00 - [523]
 

Edited by: Amira Silvermist on 09/11/2006 09:52:05
Originally by: Ryo Jang

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
also: how much armor do the geddon and apoc have on the testserver?

armageddon: 7970
apocalypse: 9000


The Abaddon has 10200 btw... ugh

Ryo Jang
Central Defiance
Insurgency
Posted - 2006.11.09 10:00:00 - [524]
 

Edited by: Ryo Jang on 09/11/2006 09:59:49
ah, thatll teach me. 12000 is with skills of course Rolling Eyes

Logan Xerxes
Xerxes Security
Posted - 2006.11.09 10:19:00 - [525]
 

Originally by: haq aan

-ROKH : Drop 1 turret HP - Or restrict its bonus just for rails (otherwise Caldari ll rule about blasters too)



Uh?

1-Slow, big brick is what you can use to describe the Rokh. You aren't fitting a MWD to this thing for combat purposes.
2-No damage bonus, you're going to be doing comparatively poor damage.
3-No tracking bonus, you're gonna have trouble hitting some things.
4-To fix 2 and 3 you need to sacrifice your your tank by replacing shield mods with and MWD, scramble and web. And your PDU's with magstabs.

Trust me, sure, you can mount blasters to the Rokh, but it doesn't mean it'll be very good at it. And with the Raven being a far, far better close range platform than the Rokh, why would anyone in their right minds do this?

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.09 11:41:00 - [526]
 

Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 09/11/2006 11:41:50
Originally by: Ryo Jang

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
- what if our predictable damage wasnt all that superior compared to the other races to make up for the lack of versatility??

well imo, it should be, to make up for it

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
- what if our tanks werent all that much better than those of other races to make up for the lack of versatility?

see above ...



so you're basicly agreeing that amarrians dont get the advantages with lasers and armor tanks they should have to make up for their lack of versatility.

and yet you still seem to think that adding yet another ship doing exactly the same things slightly better is a good idea?

Originally by: Ryo Jang

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
- what if not being completely predictable is slightly better for pvp compared to increased stats?

of course. but youre talking about bonuses here, and they just dont matter when it comes to fitting your ship how YOU want it. sure, if you have weapons bonuses, then thats a good thing to invest in.



sure you can try and fit an ecm-abaddon or a full-nos apoc. this is sure to work well maybe once or twice if at all. just in the same way as you may be able to kill a greedy pirate with a correctly fitted bestower once in a while. for all other times your stuck with a ship that is very easy to predict and counter. actually not 1 but 3 ships that are very easy to predict and counter.

also...gimping your damage output to make your ships work in the first place doesnt seem like a good idea really. that some of our ships do actually work better with minmatar weapons should be some kind of a hint that things are not good the way they are.


Originally by: Ryo Jang

but just because you dont have 5% more ecm strength per level, doesnt mean you cant have an ecm. you can do anything you like on any ship.



not really true. there simply is no way to reach long range targets with amarrian ewar. for this you need a range bonus. it simply wont work without one and theres no ship in the game that has one.

also note: ecm is not the amarrian ew type. and just sticking an ecm mod on a ship not designed for them will not have the desired effect with kali anyway.


Originally by: Ryo Jang

caldari are innovators, amarr are traditional. its in the storyline.



yes yes i'm quiet aware of the backstory. unfortunately amarrian ship in the game only have the disadvantages described there but dont get to enjoy the devastating lasers and near unbreakable armor they should have.

if you really want to have it this way then amarrians should get really powerful lasers and the best armortanks around (not in the same ship propably). instead we seem to specialize in sub-standard weapons and mediocre tanks.

if things would work according to the storyline the maller or omen would be our most powerful t1 crusiers. go ahead and ask your new alliance which not so typical amarrian crusier it is instead.


Originally by: Ryo Jang

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
- even better why dont we take 1 ship in each class and race and change all the others to become copies with different stats according to their tier?...


now youre just being silly.



at least on the bs level we have already achieved this on the testserver.


Razor Jaxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.11.09 12:16:00 - [527]
 

Originally by: Nifel
Originally by: Razor Jaxx
stuff



It's not a pants bonus for an AC-boat, although it misses a 7th medslot to be truly great in that department. The problem is that Tux wanted (still wants?) it to be a shield-tanking artillery boat. And for that an active bonus like the shield boost bonus isn't all that great. A passive bonus like HP or reistances are much better for a shield tanking artillery boat as it can both be actively tanked or just passively tanked.

The much-vaunted minmatar flexibility is better supported with a HP/resistance bonus as well. Plus I'd rather like a shield-tanked artillery-beast of a ship compared to an AC-boat :p.


Ah, I had no idea that this ship was designed to be an artillery platform - but I'm sure this will not be the first instance where a ship finds its practical niche in an area its creators never planned.

To me, the Tempest, with its double damage bonus (RoF & damage), will remain the be all, end all of artillery ships, and a mainstay of fleet action. One can wonder how the HP boost will neutralize its alpha strike, though, and perhaps a 7th turret hardpoint would be a nice compensation, one that would bring it inline with its fleet competitors, the Megathron (7 rails), the Apoc (8 lasers) and now, the Rokh (8 rails).

The Maelstrom, along with the Hyperion (pure blaster boat), the old-school Blasterthron, the plated pulse Armageddon, and the torpedo Raven (with rage damage improvement), finds its niche in the skirmish BS category. In that configuration, the shield-boost bonus, 8 turret hardpoints and 6 medslots will do wonders, although, I repeat myself, it does lack a bit of speed & agility.

As for the choice of shield boost bonus, I reckon it keeps the ship inline with recent trends - armor res for Amarr, armor rep boost for Gallente, shield res for Caldari, shield boost for Minnie.

As for the Amarr, they seem to hold the sh..ort end of the stick atm. Their tier 3 BS doesn't add a new dimension to their choice of playing styles (another armor-tanking, 8-turret ship), and the HP boost means longer fights, which in turn means cap issues for cap intensive weapons. As such, the Apoc with its cap bonus probably has the upper-hand over the Abbadon, especially since the latter has a RoF bonus (thus cap drains faster, heh).

So, in short, I doubt the Maelstrom will ever be a viable shield-tanking artillery fleet boat, at least not in its current configuration - and yes, I do agree that a passive tank is always a better option in fleet engagements. It is, however, far from being a useless ship, and much better geared for skirmish AC than the autopest.

Zixxa
Posted - 2006.11.09 12:42:00 - [528]
 

Originally by: skillbuyer
Originally by: haq aan

-ROKH : Drop 1 turret HP - Or restrict its bonus just for rails (otherwise Caldari ll rule about blasters too)



You really want to fit a MWD on the slowest, heaviest, biggest signature ship around? Better pick your fights carefully then...

MWD is must on fleet ship. Of course, if we are going to use Rokh in the fleet.

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.11.09 14:06:00 - [529]
 

I have been thinking about balance and the Abaddon compared to the Rokh.

Everyone pretty much loves the Rokh, and thinks its just what Caldari need to round out their ships. There are a few nay-sayers, but tbh they are for the most part clueless.

So let's look at the Rokh. Resist bonus. 8 guns. Optimal bonus. Something that Caldari has never had.

So why not make the Abaddon the exact inverse?

Abaddon: Resist bonus. 8 launchers, 1 turret. Velocity bonus to missiles. Something Amarr have never had.

Amarr don't need another fleet/gunship. We have 2. And if the Rokh is good for Caldari, why wouldn't it's inverse be good for Amarr?

Nyxus

Virizium
Posted - 2006.11.09 18:32:00 - [530]
 

Originally by: Nyxus
I have been thinking about balance and the Abaddon compared to the Rokh.

Everyone pretty much loves the Rokh, and thinks its just what Caldari need to round out their ships. There are a few nay-sayers, but tbh they are for the most part clueless.

So let's look at the Rokh. Resist bonus. 8 guns. Optimal bonus. Something that Caldari has never had.

So why not make the Abaddon the exact inverse?

Abaddon: Resist bonus. 8 launchers, 1 turret. Velocity bonus to missiles. Something Amarr have never had.

Amarr don't need another fleet/gunship. We have 2. And if the Rokh is good for Caldari, why wouldn't it's inverse be good for Amarr?

Nyxus



You can not compare Caldari ideology with that of Amarrian ideology. The two races are very different. Your argument would be the real world equivalent of comparing apples to oranges. In other words, Amarrians are about laser turrets and drones (for the most part), and the Caldari have always had a multiple personality with respect to turrets or missiles... turrets or missiles... oh my!

The abbadon is fine the way it is. What most people forget is it is suppose to be a tanker OR a ganker, and NOT BOTH!

Throw cap recharge rigs on it with a couple rechargers and or cpr's and you wont have a problem with cap at all. I recently tanked 2 hurricanes for 5 minutes before they decided to disengage and try and take out an easier target.

Yes it is hard to fit scramblers and webs on the ship now, because doing so will diminish the cap recharge or the gank / tank ability, but that is in line with the goal ccp has for making fleets more specialised. The days of battleships doing everything are over... we will just have to pick our strats and make sure to have specialised tacklers etc.

Once you realise that these ships must be specialised, you will see many of the issues currently being debated disappear. You may not be happy with this shift in paradigm, but it is where the dev's want to delve (no pun intended).

That is all I have to say about that... ;)

FalconHawk
Amarr
Shadow Rebellion
Posted - 2006.11.09 18:52:00 - [531]
 

Originally by: Virizium


Throw cap recharge rigs on it with a couple rechargers and or cpr's and you wont have a problem with cap at all.


would be interesting to know how many cap rechargers you had fitted to it ...all 4 mid slots? did the hurricans nos you?

you think a bs has to be a sitting duck that can tank for a long time, but is not able to shot back? something is seriously wrong with the abaddon.


Mastin Dragonfly
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2006.11.09 19:09:00 - [532]
 

Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 09/11/2006 19:12:16
Originally by: Virizium
The abbadon is fine the way it is. What most people forget is it is suppose to be a tanker OR a ganker, and NOT BOTH!

Throw cap recharge rigs on it with a couple rechargers and or cpr's and you wont have a problem with cap at all. I recently tanked 2 hurricanes for 5 minutes before they decided to disengage and try and take out an easier target.


A battleship that can't kill 2 battlecruisers in 5mins, we got a winner there. Tell me, what's the point of having a great tank when the enemy will just ignore you and kill the rest of your gang first because you are no threat, at all.

Tank or gank is pointless, a glass canon may have it's uses, a tank that can't fire does not.

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.11.09 19:14:00 - [533]
 

Originally by: FalconHawk
Originally by: Virizium


Throw cap recharge rigs on it with a couple rechargers and or cpr's and you wont have a problem with cap at all.


would be interesting to know how many cap rechargers you had fitted to it ...all 4 mid slots? did the hurricans nos you?

you think a bs has to be a sitting duck that can tank for a long time, but is not able to shot back? something is seriously wrong with the abaddon.




Thats the issue really. It can gank for a minute, but can't shoot at all and tank. Unless Viz was using ACs.

And tbh Amarr actually have ships with bonuses to missiles, or a preponderance of missile slots. For us to gain a battleship with missile bonuses isn't a stretch, especially considering that backstory has Amarr + Caldari as allies.

But it's ok for the Caldari to get a ship with *8* turrets and a range bonus, yet it's not ok for Amarr to have the exact same thing in a missile ship? Can you understand why that would not seem a bit biased?

If the Rokh had 6 turrets and 2 launchers I would be more inclined to agree. As it is "whats sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander".

Lets get sauced.

Nyxus

Captain Raynor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.09 19:39:00 - [534]
 

Originally by: Nyxus
Originally by: FalconHawk
Originally by: Virizium


Throw cap recharge rigs on it with a couple rechargers and or cpr's and you wont have a problem with cap at all.


would be interesting to know how many cap rechargers you had fitted to it ...all 4 mid slots? did the hurricans nos you?

you think a bs has to be a sitting duck that can tank for a long time, but is not able to shot back? something is seriously wrong with the abaddon.




Thats the issue really. It can gank for a minute, but can't shoot at all and tank. Unless Viz was using ACs.

And tbh Amarr actually have ships with bonuses to missiles, or a preponderance of missile slots. For us to gain a battleship with missile bonuses isn't a stretch, especially considering that backstory has Amarr + Caldari as allies.

But it's ok for the Caldari to get a ship with *8* turrets and a range bonus, yet it's not ok for Amarr to have the exact same thing in a missile ship? Can you understand why that would not seem a bit biased?

If the Rokh had 6 turrets and 2 launchers I would be more inclined to agree. As it is "whats sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander".

Lets get sauced.

Nyxus



Every time CCP gives the Amarr a missile ship (read: Sacrilege) they whined it up so hard about how it was unfair they had to train up missile skills to use it that Tux caved in and turned it into a crappy Zealot clone.

Far as the Rokh goes.. it's going to lose to just about every battleship since the optimal bonus, while probably is going to be wonderful for big sniper fleets that fight on the outer edge of 200km+, otherwise isn't all that great. I have to wonder if the cost of the Rokh is really worth it, when a Tempest or Megathron can probably do the same thing for less.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.09 19:50:00 - [535]
 

Edited by: Ath Amon on 09/11/2006 20:04:42
Originally by: Captain Raynor

Far as the Rokh goes.. it's going to lose to just about every battleship since the optimal bonus, while probably is going to be wonderful for big sniper fleets that fight on the outer edge of 200km+, otherwise isn't all that great. I have to wonder if the cost of the Rokh is really worth it, when a Tempest or Megathron can probably do the same thing for less.


isn't that great? it saves 2 if not 3 modules over other ships... some posts i put in a comparsion graph between rokh and mael/tempest... i also assure you that the situation of abaddon or mega are more or less the same...

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.09 20:58:00 - [536]
 

Originally by: Virizium

The abbadon is fine the way it is. What most people forget is it is suppose to be a tanker OR a ganker, and NOT BOTH!

Throw cap recharge rigs on it with a couple rechargers and or cpr's and you wont have a problem with cap at all. I recently tanked 2 hurricanes for 5 minutes before they decided to disengage and try and take out an easier target.



how is adding cap rechargers, cpr's or cap rigs going to change this ship from an unneeded and poorly designed fleet bs into the new role it should be filling?


also: you didnt manage to take out at least one of those 2 battlecrusiers during 5 minutes? in fact you didnt even manage to hold them in place. what exactly was the fuction this setup was suppsoed to perform? other than sit there maybe?


in addition to this: please feel free to provide an abaddon setup using lasers that tanks as good as an abaddon setup with projectiles on it. you say that amarrians cant have a missile boats because missiles are not part of our racial identity. are projectiles part of it?




Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.09 21:07:00 - [537]
 

Originally by: Captain Raynor

Every time CCP gives the Amarr a missile ship (read: Sacrilege) they whined it up so hard about how it was unfair they had to train up missile skills to use it that Tux caved in and turned it into a crappy Zealot clone.



or maybe the old sacrilege just wasnt all that good to begin with.

Ryo Jang
Central Defiance
Insurgency
Posted - 2006.11.09 21:31:00 - [538]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
so you're basicly agreeing that amarrians dont get the advantages with lasers and armor tanks they should have to make up for their lack of versatility.

and yet you still seem to think that adding yet another ship doing exactly the same things slightly better is a good idea?

im saying they are underpowered both in tank and firepower for what they were designed to do, yes. and i think if its fixed, another gunship which is more powerful, but more expensive, will be a great addition.

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
sure you can try and fit an ecm-abaddon or a full-nos apoc. this is sure to work well maybe once or twice if at all. just in the same way as you may be able to kill a greedy pirate with a correctly fitted bestower once in a while. for all other times your stuck with a ship that is very easy to predict and counter. actually not 1 but 3 ships that are very easy to predict and counter.

also...gimping your damage output to make your ships work in the first place doesnt seem like a good idea really. that some of our ships do actually work better with minmatar weapons should be some kind of a hint that things are not good the way they are.
i agree. but i do believe brute firepower, if its fixed and implemented, should overcome and predictability. more damage and more cap would be a big step towards normality.


Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
not really true. there simply is no way to reach long range targets with amarrian ewar. for this you need a range bonus. it simply wont work without one and theres no ship in the game that has one.

also note: ecm is not the amarrian ew type. and just sticking an ecm mod on a ship not designed for them will not have the desired effect with kali anyway.
i used ecm as an example, substitute for whatever you want, tracking disruption included. im not too versed with that particular module much, as im usually fighting ravens anyway and nos domis anyway.


Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
yes yes i'm quiet aware of the backstory. unfortunately amarrian ship in the game only have the disadvantages described there but dont get to enjoy the devastating lasers and near unbreakable armor they should have.

if you really want to have it this way then amarrians should get really powerful lasers and the best armortanks around (not in the same ship propably). instead we seem to specialize in sub-standard weapons and mediocre tanks.

if things would work according to the storyline the maller or omen would be our most powerful t1 crusiers. go ahead and ask your new alliance which not so typical amarrian crusier it is instead.
i agree, no arguments there. and the omen imo SHOULD be our best cruiser tbh.


Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
at least on the bs level we have already achieved this on the testserver.
lol, yes i know. for the love of xenu, lets get some better cap recharge and less laser cap usage on that thing.

Tricit
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2006.11.10 01:36:00 - [539]
 

Edited by: Tricit on 10/11/2006 01:36:45
How about this?

Abbadon: 50% bonus to Laser Graphic size per level
-10% Large Energy Turret Grid need and Capacitor use per level

Hahahahah!

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.11.10 02:13:00 - [540]
 

Originally by: Tricit
Edited by: Tricit on 10/11/2006 01:36:45
How about this?

Abbadon: 50% bonus to Laser Graphic size per level
-10% Large Energy Turret Grid need and Capacitor use per level

Hahahahah!


Brilliant.


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