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Nifel
PAX Technologies
Posted - 2006.11.03 05:26:00 - [361]
 

To all those who want a 5% damage bonus for the Abaddon:

You're encroaching on Minmatar territory. You'll be getting nearly the same alpha strike as the Maelstorm (2% difference) and out-alpha strike the Tempest. And on top of that still have vastly better DPS. People train Minmatar BS for the alpha strike (if they train them for fleet fights), and now you want to give Amarr the same ability?

Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2006.11.03 10:04:00 - [362]
 

Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 03/11/2006 10:14:44
Originally by: Nifel
To all those who want a 5% damage bonus for the Abaddon:

You're encroaching on Minmatar territory. You'll be getting nearly the same alpha strike as the Maelstorm (2% difference) and out-alpha strike the Tempest. And on top of that still have vastly better DPS. People train Minmatar BS for the alpha strike (if they train them for fleet fights), and now you want to give Amarr the same ability?


Rightttt, dont want to ungimp a bad design that shoots itself out of cap, even with injectors, within 2 minutes because of it is almost as good as a Maelstorm. What weapons and ammuntion are you using to make this compairison. What fittings? What range?

The current incarnation of the Abaddon sucks. It does not out damage the geddon (due to drones and geddon can sustain fire for longer time) or out tank the apoc (due to cap limitations).

If the minnies need loving, and with the HP boost, it would seem they do, that is a different issue than lets not fix the abaddon because it makes the minnies ships even worse.

If the Devs really want to make the ship tank or gank, then give it a bonus that actually forces the issue. I would suggest that the bonuses be:

7.5% resists
2% on ALL low slot modules.

Amarr are suppost to be the armored beast in the game but that is not the way it is right now. Give them an edge to resists to make them better at tanking. My self, I think that should be done to all Amarr ships that get a resist bonus.

Amar's strength is the number of low slots the ship has. By giving a bonus to any modules in the low slots, you can either be a great tank (low slot modules) or a great gank (low slot damage mods) but you cannot do both. This also helps overcome the cap issues if low slot CPRs are used.


Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.03 10:20:00 - [363]
 

7.5% resistance bonus! 2% on ALL low slots!? Are you mad?

Suggesting bonuses are all fine and good, but at least think them through first. The least you can ask is that people compare the bonuses to their peers.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.03 10:38:00 - [364]
 

Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 03/11/2006 10:41:29
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 03/11/2006 10:38:37
Originally by: Nifel
To all those who want a 5% damage bonus for the Abaddon:

You're encroaching on Minmatar territory. You'll be getting nearly the same alpha strike as the Maelstorm (2% difference) and out-alpha strike the Tempest. And on top of that still have vastly better DPS.


so? you dont see me complaining that the other 3 races are encroaching on amarrian 8 turret bs territory.

minmatar ships would still have the best alpha and the abaddon would actually do less dps with this bonus instead of laser rof. it would be at least slightly different from the geddon and not run out of cap as fast.

also: tux wants to up artillery damage by 5% to improve minmatar alpha for some reason.




Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.03 10:45:00 - [365]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne

also: tux wants to up artillery damage by 5% to improve minmatar alpha for some reason.



Yeah, maybe the minor fact that some ships will have perhaps double the current hitpoints has something to do with it. And boosting the damage with 5% will mean nothing. I think he means boosting dps, because 5% wont do anything significant for alpha strikes with the major hitpoint boosting.

Alpha strike could be boosted by 50% and STILL not be as good as before the hitpoint changes. Its just silly...I dont know how ccp are going to solve that problem. They probably wont, and will instead make artillery like railguns...Confused

LukaG
Posted - 2006.11.03 11:31:00 - [366]
 

Hello,
I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already but I think its a practical improvement to the Hyperion which has become quite contraversial.

The second bonus on the Hyperion is simply not balanced or in line with the role of the ship. The Hyperion is a short range blaster boat and I think its bonuses should reflect that. More suitable bonuses:
-7.5% Tracking bonus (change the one on the mega to the repair bonus?)
-7.5% Reduction in MWD cap usage
-7.5% Speed or Agility Bonus
-5% Armour resist bonus
-5% RoF bonus for Hybrid Blasters

Anyway I hope a dev actualy gets to read this, it would be a shame for this ship to be released flawed with the majority of the Gallante flying communtiy considering it as brocken. Thanks for your time.

Luka

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.03 11:42:00 - [367]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor

Yeah, maybe the minor fact that some ships will have perhaps double the current hitpoints has something to do with it.



i'm quiet aware of that. notice how tux also forgot to boost the cap of amarrian laser and gallente blaster boats and increase the aggrotimer for jumping/docking. then theres the issue of boosting already nice passive plate/extender setups over active tanks.

the whole hp boost seems to be poorly thought through. as could be seen on the initial reaction on the forums this does affect a bit more than just fight duration. a lot of rather obvious issues seem to get ignored there. i'm pretty confident that this could have worked a lot better had he started a thread on this a month ago and simply asked what people think of it and how it will affect the game.


regarding the reduced usefulness of alpha: i suspect that your right and artillery will become closer to rails/beams.

Lucre
STK Scientific
Black-Out
Posted - 2006.11.03 12:40:00 - [368]
 

Originally by: Nifel
To all those who want a 5% damage bonus for the Abaddon:

You're encroaching on Minmatar territory. You'll be getting nearly the same alpha strike as the Maelstorm (2% difference) and out-alpha strike the Tempest. And on top of that still have vastly better DPS. People train Minmatar BS for the alpha strike (if they train them for fleet fights), and now you want to give Amarr the same ability?


If there's one thing that Amarr and Minmatar can agree on, it's that both are currently suffering wrt Caldari and Gallente - and that the hit point changes/longer fights changes will only make this worse.

If we use the weakness of projectile ships as an argument for not improving laser ships, then next we'll be using those laser ships as an argument for not improving the projectile ships! Whereas the truth is that both urgently need some 'loving' again from the Devs.

SpMind
Posted - 2006.11.03 12:41:00 - [369]
 

Edited by: SpMind on 03/11/2006 13:05:27
Edited by: SpMind on 03/11/2006 12:41:24
Abaddon is a new amarrian BS.It must be Highend tech and weapon system. But Abaddon must follow Amarrians traditions of heawy armored warfare and it must use ultimate energy weapons. Drones... this is old school of war, they are not combine with Amarrians thinking and do not combine with highend tech. Main weapon of Abaddon must be energy turrets and systems, this is true tactics of Emperors fleet.

I propose

Add 1 low slot (tier1 and2 have 11 slots (med+low)) tier 3 must have 12. This is a new ship, right? :)

increase cap to 5800-6000

increase grid to 24000

cpu output 580

increase armor and reduce shields @ 1000 points

reduce max targeting range to 67km (Apocs targeting systems :))

And give an ENERGY bonuses, this is Amarrian ship.. isn't that so?

5% Large Energy Turret rate of fire per level and 10-15% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer effectiveness perlevel (range and transfer amount )

In that case we got a new Hi-end energy weapon platform designed for close combat warfare. Or long range fire support (some dmg for short period of time)


or most simple bonuses, bot not so unusual.


5% Large Energy Turret damage per level and 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level.

This is are usual Abaddon. Changing 5% rof to 5% dmg give us a more time to use our weapons but do a little less dps.

The Armin
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.03 13:05:00 - [370]
 

Give Abaddon projectile bonus instead of the energy bonus and everyone is happy Very Happy

Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2006.11.03 13:08:00 - [371]
 

Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 03/11/2006 13:09:13
Originally by: Ithildin
7.5% resistance bonus! 2% on ALL low slots!? Are you mad?

Suggesting bonuses are all fine and good, but at least think them through first. The least you can ask is that people compare the bonuses to their peers.


In what way am I mad?

Damage resists:

On a dedicated tanker the resists would only go up no more than 3% over the current 5% max the ship gets now. Not hugh but does give some edge compared to other Tier 3 BS with resist bonuses. After all, Amarr does not have much else beyond tanking and Lasers.

The 2% on all low slot modules:

Tanking resists: would add no more than 1-2%
Tanking reps: would add max of 10%
Damage mods:
current 3xHS2's 33.1%
2% bonus 3xHS2's 46.4

So it could either have the best tank in the game or a great gank. I dont see where that is over powering. It is making the bonus support what the Amarr do the best, use low slots for tanking or ganking.


SpMind
Posted - 2006.11.03 14:01:00 - [372]
 

Originally by: Nifel
To all those who want a 5% damage bonus for the Abaddon:

You're encroaching on Minmatar territory. You'll be getting nearly the same alpha strike as the Maelstorm (2% difference) and out-alpha strike the Tempest. And on top of that still have vastly better DPS. People train Minmatar BS for the alpha strike (if they train them for fleet fights), and now you want to give Amarr the same ability?


Tempest and Typhoon
Special Ability: 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret firing speed

What can i say.... You're encroaching on Amarr territory? Rolling Eyes

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.03 14:20:00 - [373]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Jim McGregor

Yeah, maybe the minor fact that some ships will have perhaps double the current hitpoints has something to do with it.



i'm quiet aware of that. notice how tux also forgot to boost the cap of amarrian laser and gallente blaster boats and increase the aggrotimer for jumping/docking. then theres the issue of boosting already nice passive plate/extender setups over active tanks.

the whole hp boost seems to be poorly thought through. as could be seen on the initial reaction on the forums this does affect a bit more than just fight duration. a lot of rather obvious issues seem to get ignored there. i'm pretty confident that this could have worked a lot better had he started a thread on this a month ago and simply asked what people think of it and how it will affect the game.


regarding the reduced usefulness of alpha: i suspect that your right and artillery will become closer to rails/beams.



Yeah, this whole thing is exacly the can of worms everyone said it would be. I just hope they manage to fix all the problems coming from this change...

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.11.03 14:39:00 - [374]
 

If the Abaddon is going to be a tanking boat/fleet ship make it a tanking boat.

+5% armor resists per level
+10% armor hp per level

8/6 turrets/missile hardpoints.

Great fleet platform (although severe cap problems), good survivability because the tank is ACTUALLY better, and low dps no-cap use weapons for close range tanking.

The Tier 3 amarr ship should be a massive tanker as that is Amarr's specialty. Missiles make MUCH MUCH more sense from a backstory perspective as Caldari + Amarr are friends. The Khanid line also shows how strongly they have influenced Amarr ship design.

Variety. Doesn't repeat and overshadow Apoc and Geddon as much. Non-cap use weapons + 2 tanking bonuses make for an actual tank that is substantially better. Keeps to the backstory.

That is what the Abaddon should be tbh.

Nyxus

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.03 15:01:00 - [375]
 

Originally by: Nyxus

+5% armor resists per level
+10% armor hp per level

8/6 turrets/missile hardpoints.

Great fleet platform (although severe cap problems), good survivability because the tank is ACTUALLY better, and low dps no-cap use weapons for close range tanking.



wouldnt have any cap problems in fleet ops at all. without a bonus to laser damage/rof/optimal and no laser cap use bonus theres no reason to prefer lasers over 1400mm artillery.

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.11.03 16:06:00 - [376]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Nyxus

+5% armor resists per level
+10% armor hp per level

8/6 turrets/missile hardpoints.

Great fleet platform (although severe cap problems), good survivability because the tank is ACTUALLY better, and low dps no-cap use weapons for close range tanking.



wouldnt have any cap problems in fleet ops at all. without a bonus to laser damage/rof/optimal and no laser cap use bonus theres no reason to prefer lasers over 1400mm artillery.


Sure there would: DPS. Tachys on an apoc are almost 110dps better than 1400s on an apoc. They make better sounds and pretty lights too.

Nyxus

PSEWAR
Amarr
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2006.11.03 16:28:00 - [377]
 

Originally by: Nyxus
Tachys on an apoc are almost 110dps better than 1400s on an apoc. They make better sounds and pretty lights too.



With 8 Tachyon Beam and multi lenses you have a dps of 212 against an apoc.
With 8 1400 Artis and emp projectil you have a dps of 136 against an apoc.

As you have to fit RCU's to actually be able to fit 8 tachyon beams on an apoc and tachs suck a hell of a lot cap you are not able to use them for long time while tanking, so that we are back to the point that you are better with using projectils.

But I think that is getting to much off topic here is the discussion is about the Tier3 BS.

I would be happy if Tux or an other Dev that has to do with the Tier3 Bs could actually post in here so that we might get the feeling that they read our concerns here and if they plan to do anything about it as it surely seems there is a very big balancing issue.

volly
Amarr
Full Contact
Blade.
Posted - 2006.11.03 17:21:00 - [378]
 

Originally by: Nyxus
If the Abaddon is going to be a tanking boat/fleet ship make it a tanking boat.

+5% armor resists per level
+10% armor hp per level

8/6 turrets/missile hardpoints.

Great fleet platform (although severe cap problems), good survivability because the tank is ACTUALLY better, and low dps no-cap use weapons for close range tanking.

The Tier 3 amarr ship should be a massive tanker as that is Amarr's specialty. Missiles make MUCH MUCH more sense from a backstory perspective as Caldari + Amarr are friends. The Khanid line also shows how strongly they have influenced Amarr ship design.

Variety. Doesn't repeat and overshadow Apoc and Geddon as much. Non-cap use weapons + 2 tanking bonuses make for an actual tank that is substantially better. Keeps to the backstory.

That is what the Abaddon should be tbh.

Nyxus



/signed

.... and paint it black of course

SpMind
Posted - 2006.11.03 18:09:00 - [379]
 

Originally by: Nyxus



Sure there would: DPS. Tachys on an apoc are almost 110dps better than 1400s on an apoc. They make better sounds and pretty lights too.

Nyxus



heh...now lets see what we have else.. we have resistances!

80% BSs use armor tanks.
100% BSs have base EM res 60-70%
100% BSs have base EXP res 10-20%

And if you use fusion shells, you recive almost similar DPS. But 0 cap use, and easier fitting.

Originally by: Nyxus
If the Abaddon is going to be a tanking boat/fleet ship make it a tanking boat.

+5% armor resists per level
+10% armor hp per level

8/6 turrets/missile hardpoints.

Great fleet platform (although severe cap problems), good survivability because the tank is ACTUALLY better, and low dps no-cap use weapons for close range tanking.




In this case it will be Apoc MK2 - Howitzer platform

Soratah
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.11.03 18:48:00 - [380]
 

Edited by: Soratah on 03/11/2006 18:49:36
Originally by: PSEWAR
Originally by: Nyxus
Tachys on an apoc are almost 110dps better than 1400s on an apoc. They make better sounds and pretty lights too.



With 8 Tachyon Beam and multi lenses you have a dps of 212 against an apoc.
With 8 1400 Artis and emp projectil you have a dps of 136 against an apoc.

As you have to fit RCU's to actually be able to fit 8 tachyon beams on an apoc and tachs suck a hell of a lot cap you are not able to use them for long time while tanking, so that we are back to the point that you are better with using projectils.

But I think that is getting to much off topic here is the discussion is about the Tier3 BS.

I would be happy if Tux or an other Dev that has to do with the Tier3 Bs could actually post in here so that we might get the feeling that they read our concerns here and if they plan to do anything about it as it surely seems there is a very big balancing issue.



You mean like that 70-page "Amarrian ships" thread in ships and modules that was completely ignored a couple of weeks back.

Despite the Amarrians being an older spacefaring race their pinnacle of technology are:

Lasers
Drones
Tracking Disruptors
Nos (the most recent)

The ONLY success Amarr ships have are with Nos, in fact the Curse and Pilgrim are incredibly deadly to ANY turret-using ship in this universe because of their inherent bonii. If a Curse pilot with 2 Tracking Disruptors and medium nos caught ANY Amarrian BS then the BS would be forced to dock, jump, or die. That's IT.... The Geddon is a good ship for combat with high dps.. but to match the dps of a Megathron you HAVE to have T2 Weaponry and heatsinks..

Drones are a borrowed technology to protect ships from fast-movers, it has limited success on the Arbitrator models (again one of the most favored and diverse ships). The Abaddon, the pinnacle of technological achievement in the Battleship field is.... what... Rehashed.... oh dear.

I remember CCP saying they had clear concepts of which each ship's role will be. Prey tell us the concepts that were thrown out by the dev team for this tragic ship.

Oh well, Amarrians get another ship that rich people will buy to sit in their hangers and look at it occasionally. Saying to themselves "Yes, nice looking with big drone bay doors on the front and every essence looking like a big chunky useful drone carrier. Phew, what a hack job!"

People have number crunched and layed out their maths on this forum so it's a very big case in favour of changing the Abaddon. Yet, despite this wealth of public opinion and mathematical dissection... who here believes that the Abaddon will be on TQ with the EXACT same setup as it does now?

It's great being Amarrian ain't it?

Zixxa
Posted - 2006.11.03 20:09:00 - [381]
 

Tier 3 BS
One is for laser users
One is for projectile users
Two are for hybrid users
Zero are for missile users
Why?

Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2006.11.03 20:23:00 - [382]
 

Originally by: Zixxa
Tier 3 BS
One is for laser users
One is for projectile users
Two are for hybrid users
Zero are for missile users
Why?


Well it could be that since Cal already have the best EW BS, the best Missile BS, and are now getting the best Rail BS, this seems like your just trolling.

Now if you want to talk about one of the gimped BS like Amarr or Minnie there is lots to talk about. Even the Gal is not that great a ship. The Rokh is the best LR ship in the game once it makes in for Kali, so your point is?

Tarazed Aquilae
Posted - 2006.11.03 20:37:00 - [383]
 

Originally by: Zixxa
Tier 3 BS
One is for laser users
One is for projectile users
Two are for hybrid users
Zero are for missile users
Why?


Maybe it would be a good idea to make the new Amar BS a missile boat like the raven, with armor tanking instead or shield tanking. Make it 8 high, 4 mid, 8 low slots with 4 turrets and 6 missile slots. Give it a +5% missile ROF and +5% armor resistances per level.

You would give the Amar one hell of a mission runner which is something they really need. Yes, it would step on the Ravenís toes some, but it would show the results of gaining Caldari technology. Besides, the Caldari are getting an awesome new BS that displaces the Gallente and Minmatar ships for fleet battles.

Just a thought.

The Armin
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.03 22:10:00 - [384]
 

No missile hardpoints on t1 Amarr ships goddammitt :E sjss.. I don't wanna HAVE to fit missile launchers to have a decent ship :/ If I wanted that I'd train Caldari, okay ?

Ather Ialeas
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.11.03 22:55:00 - [385]
 

Edited by: Ather Ialeas on 03/11/2006 22:56:37
Edited by: Ather Ialeas on 03/11/2006 22:55:35
Just finished a short test of Abaddon's tanking capabilities at SiSi and I must say that for the purpose I've been planning to use Abaddon for it seems to be perfect for this ship. And no, that's not a good thing. Read on.

Firstly, my setup.

HI:
6* Heavy Diminishing Nos
MED:
2* Heavy electrochem (booster 800)
2* Cap Recharger II
LOW:
1* F85 damage control (could be eanmii, could be capmod, could be additional hardener)
1* Armor Kinetic Hardener II
1* Armor Thermic Hardener II
1* Armor Explosive Hardener II
3* Large Armor Repairer II
RIGS:
3* Trimark

So what does this setup do besides drain out of cap? Well, it runs one LARII nearly nonstop, with some nosses it runs two LARII nonstop and if all nosses are sucking energy from someone it'll run all three LARII nonstop. With omnihardener setup it tanks around 700dps as I just proved on FFA2 (Moros in siege mode couldn't kill me, neither could a carrier - citadel torps had way too high alpha though and Abaddon went pop).


So what I'm planning to use this for? Why, complex tanking of course. If I change the omnihardener setup to two damage type specific, I start to get so insane tanking figures for this ship that it really gets a specific role, a reason to exist: At its current state Abaddon will be an awesome complex tanker. No, it can't shoot anything seriously but all you need is to get aggro in plex and you're all set for some easy plex lovin'.

So yea, Abaddon can actually take a beating at least as long as there's something to NOS. The real issue is that it really doesn't seem to be able to do anything else making it useless for everyone else who doesn't act as the tanker of their local plexrunner group.

Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2006.11.04 00:30:00 - [386]
 

Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 04/11/2006 00:31:35
miss post


murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2006.11.04 07:56:00 - [387]
 

Tested the Hyperion today. WOW. What a piece of junk. Anything it can do, the Mega can do better. Can't fit a dual large rep tank on the Hyperion w/ 8x Ions. The DPS is really poor with electrons, and it's missing 20% drone DPS compared to the Mega. A huge disadvantage, especially if you're out of cap or ECMed.

The Hype's biggest advantage over the mega is it's rep bonus. In order to maximize this you need to run two reps. Unfortunately running plates is more efficient due to the HP change, but that's also not without it's drawbacks (to blaster boats, not to other battleships) due to mass problems.

8 blasters and two reps chew through even MORE cap per second than the Mega does. With the maximum cap usage pretty much completely limited by how fast the injector can be fired/reloaded, the Megathron can easily exceed it's capacity, and the Hyperion is even worse.

It's cap with respect to the Megathron isn't any improvement. It still dies just as quickly, if not more so due to the additional demand of the 8th gun. With such low DPS due to using electrons and only having 4 drones, combat becomes a cap war with whoever having more cap charges being the winner.

An autocannon Abaddon absolutely TORE ME APART. Wasn't even close. His tank never dropped below 85%. Killed all my drones, then killed me off with little effort. I simply ran out of cap.

Every fight I have now I use ALL of my cap charges. Every fight is down to the last charge. I simply can't do enough DPS fast enough before I run out of cap charges. REALLY f#cking sucks. If you're not near a station with a steady supply of charges, forget using blasterboat battleships in the future, and probably BCs as well.

Mastin Dragonfly
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2006.11.04 08:26:00 - [388]
 

Originally by: murder one
An autocannon Abaddon absolutely TORE ME APART. Wasn't even close. His tank never dropped below 85%. Killed all my drones, then killed me off with little effort. I simply ran out of cap.


Maybe everyone is meant to use projectiles...

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.04 10:07:00 - [389]
 

The problem remains the same as before with two of these ships, as I and several others have highlighted ever since their concepts became known:
* Hyperion tries to do the same thing as Megathron - BAD design.
* Abaddon tries to do the same thing as Armageddon and Apocalypse - BAD design.

Bailian Moxtain
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.11.04 11:55:00 - [390]
 


The hyprion is sh***ty Evil or Very Mad

Give it mwd and large hyb bonus YARRRR!!YARRRR!!


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