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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.02 14:54:00 - [331]
 

I'm still crossing my fingers and will patiently wait for Kali.
If the Abaddon remains as it is now it will at least be enough to drop Amarr for good. ugh

(Yes, this qualifies as whine.)

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.02 15:09:00 - [332]
 

Originally by: PSEWAR
Originally by: Jim McGregor

I can understand it though... I mean, you cant really give amarr a drone ship or minmatar a missile ship, because they want the races to be different to eachother. So basicly when they design a third battleship, they cant really make it too different. I think thats why we are in the situation we have here.



So giving the Amarr a drone ship (bigger version of the Arbitrator) is so much more different from giving the Caldari a hybrid weapon ship (bigger version of the Moa)?

It is. The "bigger Moa" has a solid place in the Caldari design philosophy, it follows a clear progression, and has been a critical missing design since summer 2003 (when CCP moved electronic warfare from high slot to mid slot) and the changes to Raven and Scorpion moving them away from railgun usage.

The bigger Arbitrator is a clear design breach against the racial identity table, as well as against the Amarr identity. The Arbitrator is an unusual ship. It's not a common design, it is a breach against the Amarrian design. To put such a breach on the top tier is illogical and sends clear signals that Amarr, not Gallente, are the drone users.
The top tier of a ship class represents the race's strongest identity. This is logical both from a psychological and suspense of disbelief (in lack of better wording) perspective. There is only one exception to this, the Tristan (basically, Tristan is the only T1 Gallente ship with a split layout, but it should be noted that it has no missile bonuses).
If you were to identify each race's characteristic and design the ships in tier around it, it would work wonders on the game, in my opinion. This would mean moving the Dominix up one tier, scrapping the double blasterboat design, adding a dampener boat. For the Amarr, it would create place for the racially characteristic odd-ball in tier one (something like a missile+drone+EWar boat to bunch it all together).

However, to design this utopia in EVE battleship design, it would mean much more work than simply introducing new, standardized, battleships. It would mean re-evaluating and repositioning current designs.
EVE needs this, true, but it must be considered that it is a time consuming effort since some of the ships would need a complete redesign (Dominix, Megathron, Armageddon, etc). The Caldari BShip line is perfectly fine and true to the racial identity, and it's the only one that is.

Most of all, EVE needs more specialization options and paths. The technology level 1 ships need to be introduced in the specialization path, as well.
Simply put, if you want to do A good, train race Gamma. If you want to do B really well, train race Delta's T2 ships.
Currently, it is if you want to do A well, train any race. If you want to do B really good, train your preferred race's T2 ship. Most of the time racial specialization doesn't matter, with the exceptions of drones and missiles.

To summarize:
* More racial identity
* Less standardized new ships (ti2 BCs good, ti3 BSs bad)
* Less easily accessible paths - make me train Caldari if I want to snipe.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.02 15:30:00 - [333]
 

Originally by: Ithildin

It is. The "bigger Moa" has a solid place in the Caldari design philosophy, it follows a clear progression, and has been a critical missing design since summer 2003 (when CCP moved electronic warfare from high slot to mid slot) and the changes to Raven and Scorpion moving them away from railgun usage.



no its not.
the bigger moa has exactly the same reason to exist that a big arbi has.
once upon a time there were caldari rail bs. now there are none. claiming that merlin->moa->rokh is a clear progression and not admitting the same for crucifier->arbitrator->big arbi is simply wrong.

in the same way i could claim that amarr exclusively needs to get the stacking penalty for damagemods removed because once upon a time they could fill all their lowslots with heatsinks for uber gankage. clearly this is a part of our race identity that has been critically missing since they fixed it.



Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.02 16:22:00 - [334]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/11/2006 16:24:49
Originally by: PSEWAR
Originally by: Jim McGregor

I can understand it though... I mean, you cant really give amarr a drone ship or minmatar a missile ship, because they want the races to be different to eachother. So basicly when they design a third battleship, they cant really make it too different. I think thats why we are in the situation we have here.



So giving the Amarr a drone ship (bigger version of the Arbitrator) is so much more different from giving the Caldari a hybrid weapon ship (bigger version of the Moa)?


Yes. As I see it, half of the Caldari ships are hybrid ships, so I wouldnt say its very different to what they already have. Amarr has 1 drone ship in the Arbi, but most of their ships is just lasers. Wouldnt you agree?

In the end, I dont think we want a Eve where every race can do it all. They should be focused on their thing, and the only reason you guys want a drone ship is because you are tired of lasers (or think their damage suck). Good news is that its very, very easy to fly the gallente drone ships since you dont need racial t2 gun skills.

Edit: Udyr, I read your post, but you forget about Ferox and probably lots of other ships that are designed for hybrids. Caldari are missiles and hybrids. You cant say that amarr is lasers and drones.

Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2006.11.02 16:29:00 - [335]
 

Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 02/11/2006 16:28:55
The Abaddon is not a better tanker than an Apoc. It can get slightly higher resists but lacks the cap to run the tank and do as much as a stock Apoc. It does not out gank the geddon since it has to load up on CPRs and CRs just to keep from firing itself dry.

The bonuses are just wrong for what CCP says this ship should be. And yes I went on to SISI to test them. The RoF bonus ends up nerfing the ship since it eats up all the cap, even with injectors. If you fight close range, the geddons drones more than off set the Abaddon, so there is no advantage there.

If you want it to choose between gank or tank, then give it some bonuses that actually make it a better ganker then a geddon or a better tanker than an Apoc.

I would suggest that you tie the bonuses to the low slots so that the ship can ether be fitted with damage mods or be fitted with mods. So, I suggest that the bonuses be:

10% per level cap use reduction on Large Energy Turrets*
2% per level improved efficiency of low slot modules

That way you can tank, or you can gank but you cannot put enough mod in to do both.

*Unless lasers cap usage is made more in line with other races then all Amarr ships need to reduction bonus to use the weapons.

Not even going to get into how cap usage should be lowered since lasers were nerfed to do the same damage before resists as all the other races.

Anyway my time on SISI has shown me that Abaddon is not a better tanker or ganker than existing Amarr ships.

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.02 16:29:00 - [336]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor
Yes. As I see it, half of the Caldari ships are hybrid ships, so I wouldnt say its very different to what they already have. Amarr has 1 drone ship in the Arbi, but most of their ships is just lasers. Wouldnt you agree?

I don't see why a concept that has proven unflexible and boring has to be reinforced. Neutral

Lucre
STK Scientific
Black-Out
Posted - 2006.11.02 16:31:00 - [337]
 

Originally by: Ithildin
The bigger Arbitrator is a clear design breach against the racial identity table, as well as against the Amarr identity. The Arbitrator is an unusual ship. It's not a common design, it is a breach against the Amarrian design. To put such a breach on the top tier is illogical and sends clear signals that Amarr, not Gallente, are the drone users.
The top tier of a ship class represents the race's strongest identity.

The problem with this argument is twofold. Firstly, the tiers aren't introduced simultaneously so by your logic when there are 2 tiers, tier II should have represented the strong racial identity. Except then as soon as Tier III came in, that would assume the racial identity and the tier II would all have to be redesigned?

Oh, and secondly, who says tier III is the top tier?

(However, if you want to give the Abaddon the Geddon's bonuses and instead turn the tier 1 Geddon into a drone/missile ship, I'm sure we could live with that!) Very Happy

PSEWAR
Amarr
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2006.11.02 16:43:00 - [338]
 

Edited by: PSEWAR on 02/11/2006 17:43:40
Originally by: Ithildin

To summarize:
* More racial identity
* Less standardized new ships (ti2 BCs good, ti3 BSs bad)
* Less easily accessible paths - make me train Caldari if I want to snipe.


By your own logic the caldari should then get all missiles boats turned into hybrid ships as due to the reason that their Tier3 BS is not an missile boat and represents the racial identity table.

If you say the Amarr are only allowed to use Lasers in regard of their Backstory the Lasers should then get unnerfed so that hey do more damage as every other weapon and the amarr ships have to get a boost at the tanking ability as they have specialised in these two things they have to be superior over all other races.

However that is not the case and I think also a bit off topic.
So as time passes also the Amarrian races should be allows to adapt new technological inventions and combine them with their identity so I see no problem that why the Amarrian scientist should not be allowed to develop a Battleship out of the Aribtrator (droneboat) and for example combine it with the existing features, e.G. Armor resistances.


Edit:
From wikipedia:
Abaddon, in demonology, was chief of the demons of the seventh hierarchy. He was called The Destroyer and, in the Book of Revelation, St John called him the King of the Grasshoppers.

So why not let the drones be these Grasshoppers? ;)

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.02 17:22:00 - [339]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor

Yes. As I see it, half of the Caldari ships are hybrid ships, so I wouldnt say its very different to what they already have. Amarr has 1 drone ship in the Arbi, but most of their ships is just lasers. Wouldnt you agree?



1. its not really half of them its one line out of 3
2. the arbi is not just drones. its drones + td + mixed hardpoints + blanaced slotlayout thats setting it apart form the other amarrian ships.
3. our top tier ships are traditionally our tankers. so that would be projectile weapons. not lasers

Originally by: Jim McGregor

In the end, I dont think we want a Eve where every race can do it all. They should be focused on their thing, and the only reason you guys want a drone ship is because you are tired of lasers (or think their damage suck). Good news is that its very, very easy to fly the gallente drone ships since you dont need racial t2 gun skills.



i dont want a domi or scorp for amarr but i also dont want to have to learn to fly 2 races ships just to be able to fill more than 1 role. what i do want is a good support/ewar ship for amarr instead of yet another feeltship.

the amarr bs lineup after kali would be like this if you copied it to caldari:
tier1: missile rof
tier2: shield resist bonus
tier3: missile rof+shieldresist bonus (cant fit launchers and a shieldtank at the same time though)

you say you dont want all races to be equal. how about making them balanced instead.
giving amarr a support/ewar bs would not turn us into caldari or gallente copies. it would help balance our capabilities. i'm not suggesting giving us an ecm bonus but instead a bonus to our own and very different form of ewar for example.


Originally by: Jim McGregor

Edit: Udyr, I read your post, but you forget about Ferox and probably lots of other ships that are designed for hybrids. Caldari are missiles and hybrids. You cant say that amarr is lasers and drones.



ewar ships dont get a bc apparently.

caldari:
- ewar: griffin, blackbird, scrop -> 3 total
- missiles: kestrel, caracal, drake, raven -> 4 total
- rails: merlin, moa, ferox, rokh -> 4 total

so caldari have 3 distinct lines from frig up to bs. on each level they get to chose between 3 different types of ships depending on the role they wish to fill.

amarr:
- ewar: crucifier, arbitrator -> 2 total
- laser gank: executioner, omen, harbinger, geddon -> 4 total
- laser tank: punisher, maller, prophecy, apoc -> 4 total

amarr get 2 complete lines but someone forgot to make at least these 2 really different from each other. in theory they fill almost identical roles as it is already. well unless you really want to use our top tier ships in what they do best (tanking). in this case go ahead and fit projectiles.

now i left the abaddaon out there so that you can try and find the lineup thats missing a bs for yourself.

LordVodka
Earned In Blood
Posted - 2006.11.02 18:21:00 - [340]
 

I must agree with forch on the topic of the abaddon the ship looks to be a drone boat, from the moment the picture was relased I predicted 175M3 + drone boat. The ship is in definite need of some changes and I suggest that it stays as a turret boat and you change ROF for 10% cap reduction, and taht it picks up at least 50 M3 more done bay so it has 5 large. If this cant be done then the ship definately needs a complete slot change to something even like the arb (which is 4/4/4). and then the bonus 10% to drone damage/HP, and either 5% armor or a tracking disrupter bonus. A third and possibly the best option is to just change 5% rof to 5% turret damage which will save cap and give it more DPS then a geddon YARRRR!!

LordVodka
Earned In Blood
Posted - 2006.11.02 18:23:00 - [341]
 

Edited by: LordVodka on 02/11/2006 18:27:31
lag made this appear twice can it be deleted
Razz

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.02 19:05:00 - [342]
 

Originally by: LordVodka
A third and possibly the best option is to just change 5% rof to 5% turret damage which will save cap and give it more DPS then a geddon YARRRR!!

That option would be better for the cap management and alpha strike but for dps a rof bonus is better.
Tho I do hope we don't get just another turret boat...

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.11.02 19:41:00 - [343]
 

Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Yes. As I see it, half of the Caldari ships are hybrid ships, so I wouldnt say its very different to what they already have. Amarr has 1 drone ship in the Arbi, but most of their ships is just lasers. Wouldnt you agree?

I don't see why a concept that has proven unflexible and boring has to be reinforced. Neutral



unfortunately, boring inflexibility IS the amarr concept.


all in all I agree with Ithildin.

each race should have their exclusive traits.

Caldari already has, but the other 3 are still lacking in that department, whether a better definition of the current core concept, or introduction of something more exotic and interesting than any sort of Ewar. Such problem is clearly seen in the tier3 BS'es.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.02 20:14:00 - [344]
 

Originally by: Grimpak

unfortunately, boring inflexibility IS the amarr concept.



this may be true according to the backstory but really doesnt translate well into any kind of balance.

if this truely was the case (and according to tux the devs themself have no idea what amarr is supposed to be) amarr has a badly broken core concept. like i wrote above: if our concept was inflexible lasers+tank ships both these fields would have to be significantly better than what the more flexible races can offer.

if we are supposed to rely only on lasers as our weapons of choice lasers will need to be a lot more powerful than each other weapon type. and when it comes to the 2nd part of the supposed amarrian core concept this idea fails completely as tanking with lasers is simply not a good idea. to make this viable lasers would need to be reduced to 0 cap or amarrian ships need to get godly cap recharge rates.

as a side effect this idea would reduce all amarrian combat to 2 simple strategies: either gank the enemy (most likely pvp strategy then) or sit it out and slowly nible them to death. doesnt sound terribly exciting and from what i gathered ccp is trying to move away from quick ganks and towards longer and more sophisticated combat. as such limiting a race to gankmobiles doesnt sound like a terribly clever idea. in fact i seem to remember that we already had amarrian gankmobiles some time ago and the devs and non-amarrian players were no to thrilled with it.




Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.02 20:32:00 - [345]
 

I see there's been a few misunderstandings regarding my post and reasonings.

once upon a time there were caldari rail bs.

Yes, that is true. However, the biggest difference between the Caldari railgun ships and the Arbitrator is that the Caldari railgun ships are supported in the background story (henceforth: fluff). Additionally, the Caldari railgun ships are of multitude in the T1 line in all ship categories. The Arbitrator is alone in being a drone boat, it's only companions are it's own offspring.

in the same way i could claim that amarr exclusively needs to get the stacking penalty for damagemods removed because once upon a time they could fill all their lowslots with heatsinks for uber gankage.

This argumentation is only true in a very, very, limited argumentative line of reasoning. What this argument fails to take into consideration is the full scope of what I am trying to convey, which would also include fluff and ship balance.
If we look at ship balance, it is fairly obvious why this argument does not hold water - it was the reason it got changed. How does it stand to the fluff, then? Well, look no further than the description for any given blaster. I'm not saying that insane damage levels should be given to blasters for nothing, I'm saying that everything comes at a cost (and if blasters, or the ships they are fitted on, don't pay for their insane damage in some way that needs be fixed).
Speaking of which, pulse lasers still does most damage of all turrets for the lowest cost (cost being defined as effective tracking, range, fitting, etc.)

Firstly, the tiers aren't introduced simultaneously so by your logic when there are 2 tiers, tier II should have represented the strong racial identity.

Here we have a new and fresh problem construction, one that I actually approach at the end of my post. The problem with some races, like Caldari and Gallente, were that they had more than two identities, or concept spheres. Caldari were critically missing their strongest sphere.
The other races were a bit shorter on identity spheres. Amarr had theirs covered (until people got their skills up, when the Apoc no longer is that awesome in tanking), for example.

Oh, and secondly, who says tier III is the top tier?

While I get wet just thinking about new toys, just like everyone else, I also fear that the devs in their pursuit of the next line of toys forget to balance the old ones.
Really, what was done with frigates and cruisers need be done to battleships and interceptors.

By your own logic the caldari should then get all missiles boats turned into hybrid ships as due to the reason that their Tier3 BS is not an missile boat and represents the racial identity table.

No. My reasoning is that the top tier Caldari ships should be representative of the Caldari fluff. It is difficult to distinguish which of ECM, railguns or missiles are the strongest for Caldari. For example, the Osprey is fine, it's not part of the Caldari identity, but it is not located in a representative tier, either.
Please do remember that racial identity is not a single concept, it is a group of concepts.


Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.02 20:43:00 - [346]
 

Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Yes. As I see it, half of the Caldari ships are hybrid ships, so I wouldnt say its very different to what they already have. Amarr has 1 drone ship in the Arbi, but most of their ships is just lasers. Wouldnt you agree?

I don't see why a concept that has proven unflexible and boring has to be reinforced. Neutral

As was said, the Amarrian fluff (backstory) actually has them as unadaptive and unflexible - very much like how most religious groups are by the very nature of their being.

But this is not to say that they can not have the off-shots like the Arbitrator, this is to say that their pride and flagships will be predictable and representative. Unfortunately, we are dealing with added content, without modification to, or adaption of, existing content.

Fluff must be preserved. People make fate deciding choices based on fluff. Fluff is the suspension of disbelief, and suspension of disbelief is the only thing that exceed game balance in priority.
However, game balance is not beyond balancing to fluff. There are so many variables that can be tweaked to suit both game balance and fluff.

Or, boiling it down:
No, you can't have a odd-ball potship as your highest tier, it's wrong. Yes, you can have it as one of your lower tiers. Sadly, they aren't doing changes where needed. I really sympathise. I want potships, too.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.11.02 21:00:00 - [347]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 02/11/2006 21:06:33
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
if this truely was the case (and according to tux the devs themself have no idea what amarr is supposed to be) amarr has a badly broken core concept. like i wrote above: if our concept was inflexible lasers+tank ships both these fields would have to be significantly better than what the more flexible races can offer.


LIGHT YOU HAVE SEEN!!

that is EXACTLY what I meant.

IF amarr are supposed to be lasers + armor + lasers and armor, than their core concept is broken since: A) lasers are not that "all-powerful", and B), to make the powerful lasers work, you need cap, and cap is lifeblood for tanking aswell.

While an increase of the laser damage is debatable of being healthy or not to the game (read: freakin' hard to balance), one should wonder if increasing the cap in all amarr ships by a flat XX% (yes double digits), and also a boost in their armor HP would not be out of hand.


Originally by: Ithildin
Or, boiling it down:
No, you can't have a odd-ball potship as your highest tier, it's wrong. Yes, you can have it as one of your lower tiers. Sadly, they aren't doing changes where needed. I really sympathise. I want potships, too.


indeed.

while each race fleet should be as consistent to their core concept as possible, it is also that a bit of oddball-ness here and there should be available, altho it should not be considered as maintray.

I don't consider the arbitrator as mainstray of the amarr fleet, for example. It's an oddball that was developed to be just that: an oddball.
just like the inquisitor.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.02 21:13:00 - [348]
 

Originally by: Ithildin

As was said, the Amarrian fluff (backstory) actually has them as unadaptive and unflexible - very much like how most religious groups are by the very nature of their being.



the backstory also describes us as easily outnumbering the other empires, our ships having nigh unbreakable armor (unless you happen to have a jovian motherhsip handy) and gives us devastating lasers as our weapon of choice.

incidentially the gallente need to go and find some new bonuses for their carrier + mothship because the caldari are actually the fighter specialists. dont worry though gallente get to be the ewar masters in return. minmatar will need to get nerfed across the board unfortunately as they arent really up to date with their ships (at least all the original ones).

i'm sure i could go and find a few more of these.


not all is lost though: while browsing the ships i found that at least the prophecy already has a fitting description: "it was determined after mixed fleet engagements with early prototypes that the Prophecy would be more effective as a slightly smaller, more mobile form of artillery support."


Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.11.02 21:18:00 - [349]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 02/11/2006 21:18:27
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
not all is lost though: while browsing the ships i found that at least the prophecy already has a fitting description: "it was determined after mixed fleet engagements with early prototypes that the Prophecy would be more effective as a slightly smaller, more mobile form of artillery support."


while I agree that the description might be misleading, my belief is that "artillery" is meant as "long range fire support", in the prophecy description.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.02 21:20:00 - [350]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 02/11/2006 21:22:31
The problem really is that the amarr "fluff" conflicts with the game balancing.

Amarr are from the fluff supposed to have high dps, strong tank ships, but are not very subtle. Well, one year ago that was pretty much the case. The problem was that this particular fluff was too strong, the uber amarr gankships got nerfed and are now pretty much inline with the other races ship.

Basically: amarr lost the uber gank/tank fluff but still have the inflexible fluff.

Backstory is nice & fine, but when it does conflict with the balance the balance always wins. The backstory is more an inspiration than a codex.
And as Udyr Vulpayne said, there are LOTS of colicts between the backstory and what is actually present ingame.

So, basically, amarr need some additional "postive" fluff. The uber gank/tank one just does not work in gamebalance terms, so we won't see that one again. Tux himself also admitted than amarr need some 3rd fluff.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.02 21:20:00 - [351]
 

Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 02/11/2006 21:24:38
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 02/11/2006 21:23:50
Originally by: Grimpak

while each race fleet should be as consistent to their core concept as possible, it is also that a bit of oddball-ness here and there should be available, altho it should not be considered as maintray.



i think we agree there and i already wrote earlier that i would prefer a bs sized arbi at tier 1 or 2. now if tux were to come in and tell us that he plans to change our tier1 or 2 bs to make sure we're not limited to laser+armor, laser+armor and laser+armor that would be great and i could be happy with a gimpy abaddon. as he doesnt seem to have any plans to change the lower tier bs though i will continue to point out that this new battleship is most definately not what we need.


Originally by: Grimpak

I don't consider the arbitrator as mainstray of the amarr fleet...


as far as t1 crusiers go it is _the_ amarrian combat vessel. unless you know exactly what you're up against and can prepare yourself the arbitrator will be your best bet when it comes to amarrian crusiers.

edit: to clarify...the reason for that lie with the crappyness of the omen when it comes to fittings and the extreme inflexibility of the maller. with the geddon and apoc at bs level it wouldnt be as bad.


Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.02 21:23:00 - [352]
 

Originally by: Grimpak

while I agree that the description might be misleading, my belief is that "artillery" is meant as "long range fire support", in the prophecy description.


the description actually points in a very valid direction for a pvp fitting for our tankers.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.11.02 21:28:00 - [353]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Grimpak

I don't consider the arbitrator as mainstray of the amarr fleet...


as far as t1 crusiers go it is _the_ amarrian combat vessel. unless you know exactly what you're up against and can prepare yourself the arbitrator will be your best bet when it comes to amarrian crusiers.


as the game it is, yes, but considering "fluff", one could say that the mainstray cruiser backbone of the amarrian fleet are the maller and the omen.

unfortunately, as the game is today, it is notSad


Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Grimpak

while I agree that the description might be misleading, my belief is that "artillery" is meant as "long range fire support", in the prophecy description.


the description actually points in a very valid direction for a pvp fitting for our tankers.



unfortunately tbh...

I would like to see the prophecy as a long range firepower platform with sturdy armor (swapping one of those bonuses for a range bonus + adding more grid), while the harbinger would be of a more close-range support firepower (more grid).

Serapis Aote
Minmatar
TBC
VENOM Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.02 21:41:00 - [354]
 

Edited by: Serapis Aote on 02/11/2006 21:43:18
Originally by: Ithildin

Or, boiling it down:
No, you can't have a odd-ball potship as your highest tier, it's wrong. Yes, you can have it as one of your lower tiers. Sadly, they aren't doing changes where needed. I really sympathise. I want potships, too.

I actually disagree. The tier 3 are new inventions...new deviations, new concepts for each race.
Therefore for the Amarr it could be an adaptation of the arbitor for their BS fleet. Because they are not gallente, the ships are more expensive for them to produce, thus making it the most expensive.

In the BS line I actually see the Tier 1 as the baseline epitome of the racial ideology. The cheapest to make because it is the ship the race is the most comfortable with, and most understands.

So if a drone amarr BS is almost as good or better then a domi, it comes at a price. Yes it is better, but it may cost twice as much to own, thus still making the domi a better ship for the money. If both ships are equal in the field, the gallente still wins on price.
But the amarr get a new fun ship to play with, instead of just another laser/tank ship.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.02 21:49:00 - [355]
 

Originally by: Grimpak

I would like to see the prophecy as a long range firepower platform with sturdy armor (swapping one of those bonuses for a range bonus + adding more grid)


well the prophecy like all our tankers suffers from getting a laser cap use bonus. without it it couldnt tank with lasers at all. with the bonus it tanks mediocre while using lasers or real nice with projectiles. as it lacks a good bonus to lasers theres not much reason to prefer them over projectiles. i'm not really sure if there is a viable way to make tanking with lasers a good idea.

as you can see the caldari tankers dont need the capuse bonus so they have a free slot for optimal range which gives them a real incentive to use rails. for them the capuse isnt so bad as they can also fit some launchers for tanking or on some ships try to get a passive tank. and of course staying further away from your enemy helps decreasing damage as well.



one possible idea for our tankers would really be to make them more like the nyxus-abaddon: 1 good bonus to lasers (dmg or range for example) and the 5% armor resist bonus. then add some unbonused launchers for tanking. the ships would have good damage or range in laser mode OR they could tank good with not so great damage in tankmode. of course that also works without launchers and fitting projectiles but that jsut seems more wrong every time you try it.


Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.11.02 22:16:00 - [356]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 02/11/2006 22:17:26
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
one possible idea for our tankers would really be to make them more like the nyxus-abaddon: 1 good bonus to lasers (dmg or range for example) and the 5% armor resist bonus. then add some unbonused launchers for tanking. the ships would have good damage or range in laser mode OR they could tank good with not so great damage in tankmode. of course that also works without launchers and fitting projectiles but that jsut seems more wrong every time you try it.


+5% dmg to lasers
+5% armor resists

increasing cap to 5900 (maybe increasing recharge aswell not to permit big unbalancing)

- 1000 shield
+ 1000 armor

increase grid to 24000

change slot layout to 8/4/7 with 4 launchers and 8 turrets.

one thing about the amarrian ships is that I believe that their fittings should ALWAYS be limited by CPU and not grid.
also a dmg bonus would decrease cap consumption. however if cap size is increased, I believe that the ship might be able to cope with 8 laser turrets firing continuously even with a RoF bonus.


this is only a sugestion however.

it runs a bit from the amarrian core conception, but: A) it gives the ship good posibilities of firepower while having a bigger tank and B) it shuts up the amarrian whinersRazz

edit: i'm talking about the abbadon btwRazz

Nemain
Amarr
Eye of the Dragon
Posted - 2006.11.02 23:33:00 - [357]
 

I guess if you wanted to go with background stories, you could always have somthing like -

Due to insecurities within the empire following the death of the emperror, It was decided, to further strenghen the fleet, a new battleship would be designed to fill any holes in the empires defences. The designers of the Archon and arbitrator were originally enlisted to design a micro class of Hybrid carrier/gunship with Tracking disruptor enhancements, to add suport for patrols and outposts. However, When news arrived of the imminent release of a new tier of battleships for the Minmattar and galante Navy, the Ammar Navy command requested that they forget the original plan and come up with an effective battleship design with which to go into production as soon as possible. Taking ideas from the original project and past experience with the arbitrator and archon, the new ship went into production. Due to the greatly reduced design and production time The Micro carrier design was downgraded to drone carrier, and with the help of caldari ally designers the lower number of Laser turrets was bolstered by missile hardpoints, and so the Abbaddon was born. A ship thats design mimics the mixed state of the empire upon it's creation. What it lacks in traditional focus it makes up for in vesatility providing EW, Missiles and Drones as well as the the time honoured Strong Armour and lasers.

That fills any background holes, and uses past and current storylines to validate it's design. Add a line to the rokh saying the number of turrets were maximised with the assistance of amarr ship designers, and there is cross colaberation between allies, that fits both groups storylines.

So ther you have it, Drones you get from past experience with the archon and arbitrator, Tracking disruptors from the crucifier and arb, and missiles from caldari assitance.

Not likley to happen but still it does show that the possibility is there taken from the racial storylines.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.03 00:50:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: Grimpak

+5% dmg to lasers
+5% armor resists

change slot layout to 8/4/7 with 4 launchers and 8 turrets.



Link to the original thread about it from nyxus. still has the 20 slots from the devblog of the time but the general idea remains valid.

i'm thinking this could be one way to impove our entire tanking line from sucky to nice.


+5% armor resist
+5% laser damage
high number of turet slots for its class
medium number of launcher slots for its class
small dronebay for its class

- all would work as gank or tank like the tux-abaddon.
- as the bonus is +dmg the ships are actually different to the gank line with the rof bonus.
- no need to fit matari weapons for a good tank.
- our top tier ships would get fitted with correct sized lasers more often


example maller:
5% armor resists
5% laser damage
slots: 6/3/6
5 turrets
3 launchers
10m3 dronespace
tweak other stats as needed

-> there would finally be a good reason to fit cruiser sized lasers on the maller for damage
-> good tank but less damage with launchers




Mak'shar Karrde
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.11.03 03:45:00 - [359]
 

While I love the new Battlecruisers (mostly) the new Battleships leave a sour taste behind. As a Minmatar I feel I've just been neutered with regards to fleet battles. Where range is paramount the Rokh completely outclasses all other ships. As if that wasn't enough they also have higher base resists giving them a much better chance of warping out. Even a T1 Rokh can outrange a much more expensive Tempest.

I don't want to sound like a whiner, I really don't. However, Caldari seem to be getting all too powerful in comparison to the other races. They have the best missile/npc ship, they have the only effective ECM ships and now they are getting the best snipers. Even if we spend 200 million ISK we just can't compete at maximum range. Where does that leave the rest of us? We might as well just jump into Interceptors/Interdictors and resign ourselves to tackling roles.

Sorry for the negativity. I really do like the Hurricane!

Noriath
Posted - 2006.11.03 04:04:00 - [360]
 

As far as minmatar going fast goes... Unfortunatly the difference between a fast ship and a slow ship in Eve is MWD, not ship type.

Also ship movement is pretty pointless anyways, because warping is so easy and fast...


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