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Serapis Aote
Minmatar
TBC
VENOM Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.31 15:28:00 - [301]
 

Edited by: Serapis Aote on 31/10/2006 15:28:36
Originally by: AlexCA
Droneship as amarr tier 3 however makes no sense from a backstory point of view. Most expensive T1 battleship in the amarrian fleet being a droneboat just seems odd.

not to mention the abaddon has 8 turret hardpoints modeled.

actually to me it makes sense (other then the 8 hardpoints)

The gallente are the drone specialists. So it is easier for them to produce a drone ship.

Amarr are new to this, and as such it takes more time and effort to produce an effective drone ship model, thus making it more expensive then the type of ships Amarr are used to producing.

DOARota
Gallente
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2006.10.31 17:54:00 - [302]
 

My first thought is the Caldari race will now have the best missile platform in the Raven, the best EW platform in the Scorp, the best sniping platform in the Rokh, and with it's range and other bonuses the best blaster boat in the Rokh. Holy uber race batman! Will the Jove empire be able to compete with them?
I think it's been mentioned but there needs to be a definite bonus to rail guns only. Same for the eagle.

Dristra
Amarr
Idle Haven
Posted - 2006.10.31 23:15:00 - [303]
 

Originally by: Serapis Aote
Edited by: Serapis Aote on 31/10/2006 15:28:36
Originally by: AlexCA
Droneship as amarr tier 3 however makes no sense from a backstory point of view. Most expensive T1 battleship in the amarrian fleet being a droneboat just seems odd.

not to mention the abaddon has 8 turret hardpoints modeled.

actually to me it makes sense (other then the 8 hardpoints)

The gallente are the drone specialists. So it is easier for them to produce a drone ship.

Amarr are new to this, and as such it takes more time and effort to produce an effective drone ship model, thus making it more expensive then the type of ships Amarr are used to producing.


Hmmm, the apocalypse do not have turret's on the ship, sO maybe making THAT the drone ship, giving the abaddon the tank ship role, with cap reduction and armour bonus.

The Armin
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.10.31 23:25:00 - [304]
 

But the Apoc is ugly :| I want a good looking and good performance ship :P Sorry but the Abaddon doesn't cut on the performance part and Apoc fails at both.

Dristra
Amarr
Idle Haven
Posted - 2006.11.01 00:21:00 - [305]
 

Hey, the apoc is sort of nice looking! at least it looks like a drone ship...

Logan Xerxes
Xerxes Security
Posted - 2006.11.01 00:34:00 - [306]
 

Originally by: DOARota
My first thought is the Caldari race will now have the best missile platform in the Raven, the best EW platform in the Scorp, the best sniping platform in the Rokh, and with it's range and other bonuses the best blaster boat in the Rokh. Holy uber race batman! Will the Jove empire be able to compete with them?
I think it's been mentioned but there needs to be a definite bonus to rail guns only. Same for the eagle.


Not challenging any of that except the part about the Rokh being a great blaster boat. Please provide some evidence to support your claim. And here's some food for thought, Minnies have the best Artillery boat! Gallente have the best Drone boat! Amarr have the best.... um, yeah, I'll get back to you on that.... Though my point is that each race has it's strengths and weaknesses. The Caldari happen to have the Focus of Long-Range Railguns, Short-Mid range missiles, ECM and shield tanking. Or weakness is in staying power (those shield tanks don't last) and at times unpredictable effectiveness (gotta love all 6 of your ECM's on the scorpion failing.) Our ships are slow and it's a real pain to get our ships to be effective at soloing.

JForce
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.11.01 00:39:00 - [307]
 

Originally by: Logan Xerxes
Not challenging any of that except the part about the Rokh being a great blaster boat. Please provide some evidence to support your claim. And here's some food for thought, Minnies have the best Artillery boat! **snip**


The problem is that Artillery is now the least effective weapon in the game. Confused

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.01 00:41:00 - [308]
 

from looks alone apoc or abaddon would both work well as droneboats :)

it would even fit better if our tier 1 or 2 bs was turned into a support ship instead of the tier 3 one. i've seen this suggested a few times now and agree with it:

tier 1: big arbi based on apoc hull
tier 2: geddon laser rof boat (slightly better stats maybe as a tier 2 ship)
tier 3: abaddon tanker


just giving the abaddon our typical tanking bonuses (5% resists and -10% laser cap use) may not be that great an idea though as lasers are still not very good for tanking even with the cap use reduction bonus. people would still fit projectiles on it to tank it and it wouldnt really be able to stand up to the other tier 3 bs (in particular the rokh and maelstrom here) without a real bonus to lasers.

instead i would suggest staying closer to the tux-fleet-abaddon design by giving it 5% resits as the first bonus and then either 10% optimal range or 5% damage. it should not get rof as thats already done by the geddon. then you can add some unbonused launcher hardpoints for tanking or just accept that people will continue to use projectiles on it when they want to tank it.


indeviduall
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
Brutally Clever Empire
Posted - 2006.11.01 00:44:00 - [309]
 

I think everyone has missed the most important part of the Rokh, mainly the 8 mining lasers you can fit on it Very Happy

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.01 01:00:00 - [310]
 

Originally by: Logan Xerxes

And here's some food for thought, Minnies have the best Artillery boat! Gallente have the best Drone boat! Amarr have the best.... um, yeah, I'll get back to you on that.... Though my point is that each race has it's strengths and weaknesses. The Caldari happen to have the Focus of Long-Range Railguns, Short-Mid range missiles, ECM and shield tanking.


and this is exactly the problem. caldari get to chose between 1. the best long range sniping bs, 2. the only pure missile bs and 3. the only ewar bs. if you count this you get 3 completely different designs, each featuring the best ship for its purpose and each a caldari ship. the other races can come up with 1 or 2 categories at best.

also you can see the reason why tier 3 bs are getting introduced in the first place: caldari were lacking a fleetship with instant damage capability. the 3 other races already had this covered in a more or less good manner. and while no one can really say that the caldari dont deserve to get their rail-bs people are wondering why caldari are the only race getting a bs that fills new role.

for amarr the role most obviously missing is a ewar-support bs. hence you get people calling for this particular type of ship instead of yet another fleetship.


Logan Xerxes
Xerxes Security
Posted - 2006.11.01 02:04:00 - [311]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Logan Xerxes

And here's some food for thought, Minnies have the best Artillery boat! Gallente have the best Drone boat! Amarr have the best.... um, yeah, I'll get back to you on that.... Though my point is that each race has it's strengths and weaknesses. The Caldari happen to have the Focus of Long-Range Railguns, Short-Mid range missiles, ECM and shield tanking.


and this is exactly the problem. caldari get to chose between 1. the best long range sniping bs, 2. the only pure missile bs and 3. the only ewar bs. if you count this you get 3 completely different designs, each featuring the best ship for its purpose and each a caldari ship. the other races can come up with 1 or 2 categories at best.

also you can see the reason why tier 3 bs are getting introduced in the first place: caldari were lacking a fleetship with instant damage capability. the 3 other races already had this covered in a more or less good manner. and while no one can really say that the caldari dont deserve to get their rail-bs people are wondering why caldari are the only race getting a bs that fills new role.

for amarr the role most obviously missing is a ewar-support bs. hence you get people calling for this particular type of ship instead of yet another fleetship.




Exactly.

Once again I'm not going to disputer any points raised. Hell I fully support what you've just said. And I'm not opposed to the other races getting a ship that gives them more choices, However I've only flown Caldari for a while now and as such I won't volunteer suggestions for other ships. Though it won't stop me from defending my corner of the field. I want to see the other races get boosted, fixed, fine-tuned, whatever. Competition is what make Caldari strong after allWink

JForce
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.11.01 02:18:00 - [312]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
for amarr the role most obviously missing is a ewar-support bs. hence you get people calling for this particular type of ship instead of yet another fleetship.




But none of the Minmatar or Gallente BS have a strong ewar-support bs either. So it's all relative.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.01 03:01:00 - [313]
 

Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 01/11/2006 03:04:36
Originally by: JForce
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
for amarr the role most obviously missing is a ewar-support bs. hence you get people calling for this particular type of ship instead of yet another fleetship.




But none of the Minmatar or Gallente BS have a strong ewar-support bs either. So it's all relative.


yes and i'm not disputing that. just saying that for amarr a support ship like the arbi is what is obviously missing if you look at our cruisers or frigs. for gallente and minmatar its not that easy. especially for me because i dont fly that stuff :)

gallente has a drone, a blaster and a rail-bs (last 2 may be a bit to close atm). not sure which one should also get a sensor dampener bonus. i guess it could work nicely with the hyperion to improve its chances to get into range without exploding halfway there. but i'm not too sure if it couldnt use that bonus slot for something more important for blasters maybe. would also work on the domi. however drones + ewar has been amarrian so far and the gallentean droneboats seem to go for more offensive power really. another option may be the gallente tier 2 bc with some dampener range bonus maybe as that one doesnt follow the gank design of the others.

minmatar is even more difficult because their racial ewar isnt all that well liked and their ships arent as specialized. the typhoon seems to be a rather nice platform now and i wouldnt want to change a bonus there. the tempest could in theory get an ewar bonus but that would require a complete rethinking of what the ship is supposed to do. the maelstrom as proposed seems to be aimed at providing a main fleet ship with a shieldtank. giving their main fleet battleship an ewar bonus seems just wrong because it would mix firepower and ewar. also a shieldtank with ewar needs more medslots.
so i'm not really sure if they want or need an ewar support ship. maybe with some new form of ewar.


Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.11.01 03:15:00 - [314]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
for amarr the role most obviously missing is a ewar-support bs. hence you get people calling for this particular type of ship instead of yet another fleetship.



one should ask however:

is the Ewar BS a role that we are forcibly creating for gallente/amarr/minmatar, attempting to reach some sort of uniformity between all 4 races, or is this one of the major flaws of the 4-year old, ill-designed racial concepts that CCP apparently wants to follow?

Elijah Ghost
Amarr
Rabid Ninja Space Monkey Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.01 03:47:00 - [315]
 

Edited by: Elijah Ghost on 01/11/2006 03:48:12
Guys, can someone give me the specs for the amarr tier 3 battleship? Just the general, CPU, PowerGrid, high-med-low slots etc. Drone bay size and what not. Please lemme know asap. Also, The update tomorrow, is this the entry of the Tier 3 evoloution?Twisted Evil

Oh, and the required skills?

Logan Xerxes
Xerxes Security
Posted - 2006.11.01 04:24:00 - [316]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
for amarr the role most obviously missing is a ewar-support bs. hence you get people calling for this particular type of ship instead of yet another fleetship.



one should ask however:

is the Ewar BS a role that we are forcibly creating for gallente/amarr/minmatar, attempting to reach some sort of uniformity between all 4 races, or is this one of the major flaws of the 4-year old, ill-designed racial concepts that CCP apparently wants to follow?


I also agree with Grim here. The basic race ideas need some fine tuning. As it has happened it seems the Caldari model works fine and the Gallente need some tuning. While the Minmatar and the Amarr need some more serious work. A Short overview minus tanking as it works either way:

CaldariArrow
ECM
Rails
Missiles
With these three things the Caldari have an excellent combined arms potential, I'm sure we already know about this so I won't go over it.

GallenteArrow
Hybrids
Damps
Drones
Now, i Say "Hybrids" instead of blasters because that damage bonus works just fine for both rails and blasters. It means that the frogs get more choices with their weapons and ranges without loosing any effectiveness. Drones work well when up close, or at mid range with sentry drones. Damping would be a real boon for the railships however, forcing their enemies to come into range. Perhaps Make the Mega and the Hyp into a dedicated pair of ships? Rails with Damps and Blasters with tank? The drones would remain the overhanging premise of the Domi with them being the helping hand for the other two.

AmarrArrow
Gank
Tank
Ok, here we have the golden Amrrian steamroller. The seem to dabble with a few things here and there, Nosf, Tracking disruptions, Drones. But I think that these things should remain in the background. I suggest that they get their sensor strength bumped up. A lot. Make it so that the religious nuts can just laugh at any attempt to ECM them while they burn away the infidels. But what about the Abbaddon? I'm afraid I have no clue.

MinmatarArrow
Artillery
Autocannons
Speed?
Ok here it gets difficult.The Minmatars are well known for being all over the damn place and being 20m/s faster. Missiles, Drones, shield, armor, the only thing that remains constant is the projectile guns. I'm really have no idea on these guys.

I can Fly Caldari the best, then the Amarr and the Gallente up to BC level and their concept is similar to the Caldari. But what we need to remember is that combat in eve does not occur along racial lines. so balancing things based purely on race won't work.

Sir Bart
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.11.01 08:51:00 - [317]
 

We've got 100 people saying the same things. No developer has acknowledged what we don't like about the new ships in spite of the fact that we are all saying:

-we don't want all ships to be the same.
-we have a ship that can do that, give us something new

We all agree but... nobody cares. Save your breath.

I find it funny when I imagine the devs logic when he makes these ships:

"Hey everyone! We've designed some new battleships. Guess what? They are all delisously alike! They are... get this: "fleet ships." Now you guys can fly out in space, gather in "fleets" and shoot each other! Sounds great huh? The only drawback is that a pesky game content developer made us make the ships a bit different (now they don't all use rails like we originally planned). Please post your comments in one big thread so we don't have to ignore multiple threads on the same topic. Enjoy you new "fleet" battles everyone!"

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.01 22:05:00 - [318]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
for amarr the role most obviously missing is a ewar-support bs. hence you get people calling for this particular type of ship instead of yet another fleetship.



one should ask however:

is the Ewar BS a role that we are forcibly creating for gallente/amarr/minmatar, attempting to reach some sort of uniformity between all 4 races, or is this one of the major flaws of the 4-year old, ill-designed racial concepts that CCP apparently wants to follow?

This is a very interesting question. What is most interesting about it is that the current ship designs already do follow this flawed uniformity concept in their tanking stats.

One thing that must be said, however, is that Minmatar have no electronic warfare. Target painting is not sufficient to be placed in anything but an auxiliary support role, and not something to build a ship around.

In the future I do hope that CCP build around the different races' concepts than around a new-ship concept as they've done lately. This would have as a direct effect that in order to perform well in a certain area, you would have to specialize. As it stands currently, you do not need a racial specialization at all - every race get everything with a twist.

P.S. Someone wrote something about Amarr having a few ships that dabble - don't forget missiles!

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.01 23:28:00 - [319]
 

Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 01/11/2006 23:30:36
Originally by: Grimpak

one should ask however:

is the Ewar BS a role that we are forcibly creating for gallente/amarr/minmatar, attempting to reach some sort of uniformity between all 4 races, or is this one of the major flaws of the 4-year old, ill-designed racial concepts that CCP apparently wants to follow?


well theres only so much you can do with just lasers and tank. at the bs level we have 2 ships that are already pretty close to each other because of this limitation. it could work if amarr really were better at tanking then eveyone else and if lasers really were the most devastating weapon around. if that was the case it would make sense to restrict us to just those two fields and have us suffer the consequenzes of it. thats not the case however and so we're left with specializing in mediocrity.

also its not like i suggest to create those racial ewar forms from scratch. the amarr and gallente already have their ewar crusiers/recon crusier which seem to work wuiet nicely with their fleets.

adding a bs sized arbi and giving one of the gallente bs a dampener range bonus isnt going to push the races towards uniformity. ecm, td and sd are still 3 very different forms of ewar with very different applications. what it will do is break the caldari monopoly on fleet/long range ewar. and theres really no reason why long range ewar should be resticted to caldari only. especially now that they get their fleet bs and efficent ecm gets moved to caldari only. so if anything this would push the 3 races involved closer to balance, not uniformity.


edit:
ah yes...the minnies are left out but thats mostly because they will soon be reclaimed anyway and work in our mines. so they wont have any time to fly around in spaceships no matter how crappy those are.

in case we dont reclaim them soon they may need to get their own form of ewar, if they want it.


Noriath
Posted - 2006.11.02 05:42:00 - [320]
 

As long as ECM is in the game in its current form all other Ewar will be pointless.

There is no reason to shorten targeting range, or screw up a guns tracking as long as targeting can be made impossible alltogether.

Also since CCP is clearly aiming at having EW mods only being used on EW-ships there will never ever be a good reason to train for anotherone then the 8 medslot battleship with 2 monster bonuses to the best EW.


As far as battleships go there will not be any semblance of balance amongst the races as long as Caldari get such radically different ship while everyone else gets ships that are based on the same basic concepts, especially Amarr.

DarK
STK Scientific
Posted - 2006.11.02 06:38:00 - [321]
 

I've always been annoyed with how the ships stats were done.

It's as if they have a generic model for each class and just apply attribute modifiers depending on race, for example: Caldari +20% shields, -20% armour +20% mass and then apply a possible role to it.

Instead of designing ships like that how about getting a role and building a ship around it. Make a blasterboat a blasterboat. Make a a Minmatar ship FAST, and by fast I don't mean 150m/s instead of 140m/s.

The point is let races be strong in the areas they are meant to be strong. Giving the Harbinger 250 more capacitor and then going "Amarr ship" isn't interesting.
"Weak armour" in eve means you have 4250 armour instead of 4600.

Booring.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.11.02 08:47:00 - [322]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
adding a bs sized arbi and giving one of the gallente bs a dampener range bonus isnt going to push the races towards uniformity. ecm, td and sd are still 3 very different forms of ewar with very different applications. what it will do is break the caldari monopoly on fleet/long range ewar. and theres really no reason why long range ewar should be resticted to caldari only. especially now that they get their fleet bs and efficent ecm gets moved to caldari only. so if anything this would push the 3 races involved closer to balance, not uniformity.


by uniformity I meant that instead having a more distinguishing characteristic, all races have some sort of Ewar.

LC Sulla
Caldari
House Mekarae
Posted - 2006.11.02 09:07:00 - [323]
 

Edited by: LC Sulla on 02/11/2006 09:07:59
Mostly I'm agreeing with what most are saying.

Caldari are now very balanced in BS's. As a Caldari pilot I have NO real complaints about any Caldari ship (even though my rail skills are garbage Sad).

I'm still thinking that EW should have been a major compontent for the other races. Thinking a little outside the box we can come up with some interesting designs.

Keeping the Abaddon's armour bonus and combining it with a NOS/Energy neutraliser bonus (and maybe a 75m3 drone bay). Able to tank like no other ship while deadening the cap of any other would be an intersting addition to a gang. A true tank breaker while the geddons tachyon the enemy into submission.

Similarly the Gallente could have had a damp and tracking disruptor boat (with range bonuses) and the Minmatar could have had a web/scramble range bonus (imagine being webbed and scrammed at 90kms Very Happy).

May or may not have been workable from a pvp point of view but surely worth investigating.

Nemain
Amarr
Eye of the Dragon
Posted - 2006.11.02 09:24:00 - [324]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 31/10/2006 12:29:56
Originally by: Nemain

It would be easy to make it less on the drone front than the Domi though, just in the same way the Arb is to the Vexor.



arbi is not a lesser droneboat compared to the vexor. their drone capabilities are exactly the same. a bs sized droneboat should have at leat 200-250m3 dronespace to have some spares. 250 would give you 2 waves of heavies while the domi still has 3 waves.




oops my badEmbarassed been a while since I used either the vexor or arb.

I meant pilgrim/curse to ishtar or somthing similar. Either way, enough for 1 flight of heavies, medium and scouts would be fine. A drone a TD bonus, and 6/6 missile/turret slots would make it live it's to it's name. With 6/6/8 slots it would still be amarr but have that flexibility that amarr sorely lack. Of course thats just my opinion, based on my love for the curse which I fit somewhat similar (an amarr 8.75k passive shield tank with 70/90/76/76 res that spews missiles and drones, takes many by suprise :) )

Anyway it's all a moot point I supose as the current design looks here to stay.

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.02 12:15:00 - [325]
 

Originally by: Nemain
Anyway it's all a moot point I supose as the current design looks here to stay.

Well.. why this forum section here then if not for feedback?
Hopefully things are in a state that they can still be changed from.

*prays for a new abaddon and a new emperor*

Gragnor
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.02 12:53:00 - [326]
 

Um, does it really matter what we say? The final word will be with the game developers. Do they usually make big changes to ships prior to launching a new version such as Kali?

Given all the testing etc that needs to go on, what is the likelihood that any changes will be made to any of the ships prior to kali 1 being released?

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.02 13:37:00 - [327]
 

Originally by: Grimpak

by uniformity I meant that instead having a more distinguishing characteristic, all races have some sort of Ewar.


ewar is really to powerful/important to be left to just one race.

also: like i wrote above the other races would need to be significantly more powerful at their supposed speciality to make up for it. i believe that would be far harder to balance.



Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Nemain
Anyway it's all a moot point I supose as the current design looks here to stay.


Well.. why this forum section here then if not for feedback?
Hopefully things are in a state that they can still be changed from.



well so far there hasnt even been a single dev response to the issues raised here so i'm not too hopeful. i would suspect that they dont want to bring about any real changes to the new ships now but have realized that they have failed with designing some of them. if they come in here now they will pretty much have to admit to that.


Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.02 13:40:00 - [328]
 

Originally by: Gragnor
Um, does it really matter what we say? The final word will be with the game developers. Do they usually make big changes to ships prior to launching a new version such as Kali?

Given all the testing etc that needs to go on, what is the likelihood that any changes will be made to any of the ships prior to kali 1 being released?


Well, the chances of a complete redesign is likely 0%. The devs havent given any feedback on the comments for tier 3's, so my guess is that they think they did the best they could.

I can understand it though... I mean, you cant really give amarr a drone ship or minmatar a missile ship, because they want the races to be different to eachother. So basicly when they design a third battleship, they cant really make it too different. I think thats why we are in the situation we have here.

They can make it more different, but that probably means they have to change the tier 1 and 2 as well, to make sure they dont do the same things just as well. I dont think they will, but its a nice fantasy of mine to see every battleship be good at something specific. :)

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.02 14:01:00 - [329]
 

Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 02/11/2006 14:00:46
Originally by: Jim McGregor
So basicly when they design a third battleship, they cant really make it too different. I think thats why we are in the situation we have here.



you mean they cant make it too different for other races than caldari?


PSEWAR
Amarr
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2006.11.02 14:05:00 - [330]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor

I can understand it though... I mean, you cant really give amarr a drone ship or minmatar a missile ship, because they want the races to be different to eachother. So basicly when they design a third battleship, they cant really make it too different. I think thats why we are in the situation we have here.



So giving the Amarr a drone ship (bigger version of the Arbitrator) is so much more different from giving the Caldari a hybrid weapon ship (bigger version of the Moa)?


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