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Joran Dusyfe
Gallente
Archron Dusyfe Industries
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2006.10.30 13:46:00 - [271]
 

Edited by: Joran Dusyfe on 30/10/2006 13:50:12
Of all the complaints I have not seen one person complain about the fact that the model was not changed for the Hyperion. I mean come on if it's a blaster boat at least remove that torp launcher from the model to give it a little different look. All the creativity that went into the other models is lost by the fact you couldn't even think to change something about the look of the Gallente ship.

Just my opinion.

- and after looking at the stats when I finally get onto the test server for a whopping 10 minutes before it's reboot. I see that it does have a launcher point. So much for the idea that it's designed for a different reason. Is this ship going to replace the Megathron? If so then what is on the table for a third BS for Gallente?

Again just my humble opinion.


Akiman
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.10.30 13:50:00 - [272]
 

i think devs does not gives a damn much becouse we are not including rigs...maybe they do stuff like this becouse with the right rigs ship could be overpowered?...Or worst story they dont give a sit about rigs.

...Btw out of conversation hyperion got some nice mass shouldnt it mean it will turn faster mwd faster warp faster etc.?!? Mass gives agility too right? If not i demand some :) Somebody can do the math how much cap will be left when hyperion fits MWD? I lack at math..

I dont want to fit 2 rcu II's to that ship give us some pg please? We MUST fit MWD for that ship and only 250 pg more than rokh and thats lowest!?! give us some space man!

Finally our locking range gets the penalty. I'm ok with that.But i dont see much boost at locking speed.It's just best locking speed but half way down at locking range. You generally give a boost for a penalty.%50 penalty %1? %2 boost...see the point?Confused

Olawy
Posted - 2006.10.30 13:52:00 - [273]
 

Abaddons problem is its bonuses and 'sopoused' role is thought out of blue, without consept.
AFAIK Ammars really dont like Minmatars(who can blame them?), so it would be logical for Abaddon to be effective against strenghts of Minmatar battleships.I am not played the game enaugh, but it seems that Minamatar main strenght in battleship class is the fleet Tempest, high range and extreem alphastrike.Logic would tell that to counter it one would need to render those abilities useless, tracking disruptor with the range and effectivness to do so would be a prefered.
One must understand that in .mil, equipment is designed around the concept of force.One aspect is; to force the enemy to fight in your terms or to disabilitate its supremacy in given field.

Eragon Mysdrial
Posted - 2006.10.30 14:01:00 - [274]
 

Wouldn't the simplest solution to the Abaddon problem be to fix lasers cap usage, so all lasers by default use -50% cap.

Of course, this would mean giving the rest of the Amarr ships real bonii, but I'm sure we can come up with great suggestions there...perhaps replace all the -10% with the +5% resist/level, and give all the tank ships with that already the Apoc's +5% cap?

That way, racially we have better tanks, we can use lasers (which do NOT have the mythical damage bonus) without a stupid bonii, and the Abaddon, though not really much different from Arma/Apoc would at least be functional.

Then again, it would make the Arma/Abaddon identical except for the extra turret slot. But really, would we complain if they fixed all the other stuff?

Saria Mysdrial
Amarr
ORE-TECH
CERBERUS INDUSTRIAL ALLIANCE
Posted - 2006.10.30 14:01:00 - [275]
 

^^^^

Damn Alt.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.30 14:26:00 - [276]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 30/10/2006 14:37:33
Originally by: Aramendel
Edited by: Aramendel on 30/10/2006 13:45:42
Originally by: Grimpak
in the drones + blasters thing, one thing we can be sure that both are excellent short range weapons, which obeys to the gallente's racial concept.


Yes, but so are missle & rails.

The point is, either you could drones & blasters as one single racial concepts if you count missles & rails as one single concept or you count drones & blasters as 2 different concepts if you count rails & missiles as 2 different concepts.

The problem is that whatever version you choose, caldari have then 1 specialisation more than gallente. It's either "missles & rails & ECM vs drones & blasters" or "longrange weapons & ECM vs shortrange weapons".



then the best question to be made is not "What we want from the tier3 battleships?" but rather "What is Tuxford/devs/CCP views about each races' core concepts?".
If we get that question answered, then much of the discussion that revolves not only tier3's but many of the issues that plague all the 4 races could be more clearly discussed.

heck, I even have a better idea. Let's post this on the ships & mods to see how it goes.

edit: it's done.

Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.10.30 14:40:00 - [277]
 

Originally by: Joran Dusyfe
Edited by: Joran Dusyfe on 30/10/2006 13:50:12
Of all the complaints I have not seen one person complain about the fact that the model was not changed for the Hyperion. I mean come on if it's a blaster boat at least remove that torp launcher from the model to give it a little different look. All the creativity that went into the other models is lost by the fact you couldn't even think to change something about the look of the Gallente ship.

Just my opinion.



Your opinion would be more valid if it was more informed. The new model has been selected but not completed yet, a drawing of it can be seen Here. Basically CCP won't stop public testing because the artists aren't done quite yet.

groove
Posted - 2006.10.30 14:45:00 - [278]
 

can anyone post an INGAME screenshots of those tire three BS ??? my account is expierd on the test server and i wanna see those ships.. no complaining:)

Joran Dusyfe
Gallente
Archron Dusyfe Industries
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2006.10.30 16:19:00 - [279]
 

Originally by: Kai Lae
Originally by: Joran Dusyfe
Edited by: Joran Dusyfe on 30/10/2006 13:50:12
Of all the complaints I have not seen one person complain about the fact that the model was not changed for the Hyperion. I mean come on if it's a blaster boat at least remove that torp launcher from the model to give it a little different look. All the creativity that went into the other models is lost by the fact you couldn't even think to change something about the look of the Gallente ship.

Just my opinion.



Your opinion would be more valid if it was more informed. The new model has been selected but not completed yet, a drawing of it can be seen Here. Basically CCP won't stop public testing because the artists aren't done quite yet.


Well you are 100% correct but I don't see eve-online anywhere in that post so unfortunately I don't look elsewhere much. My time is better spent looking at one web site instead of the 100's of others available. Again thank you for pointing this out. Now if we could just get Scotty on the job on Singularity as we need more power to actually be able to log on and test things instead of seeing Proxy or node is dead, loading node, ooops you have just crashed ######### node. The node is stuck etc...

Thanks.

Attak
Trioptimum
Posted - 2006.10.30 17:35:00 - [280]
 

Why not just change the Abbadon RoF bonus to damage? It'll still use all it's cap trying to fire those 8 tach's, but it won't be quite so horribly cap gimped. It would still force people to choose between a high damage fleet ship and an uber tank, which imo is good.

Rokh is good, I'm gonna be scared of it until they do the universal range nerf (please!).

Gallente blaster boat needs serious work. Only thing I can think of would be a single %10 damage per level, and some more PG. That way you're forced to use some tracking comps, webs ect to make it effectively the most damaging close range BS, although I'd imagine it would outclass the 'thron for long range too.

Then again, even if they release the tier 3 when they're broken, we'll still have the same old tier 2 to fall back on.

MECTO
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.10.30 19:07:00 - [281]
 

Originally by: Attak
Why not just change the Abbadon RoF bonus to damage?

i like this idea too btw. it will create a damn nice ship Smile

Necronus
Amarr
Monks of War
DarkSide.
Posted - 2006.10.30 19:20:00 - [282]
 

Edited by: Necronus on 30/10/2006 19:21:04
Originally by: MECTO
Originally by: Attak
Why not just change the Abbadon RoF bonus to damage?

i like this idea too btw. it will create a damn nice ship Smile

It will create nothing but a gimped abaddon from the other side.

Zhull
Republic Military School
Posted - 2006.10.30 19:28:00 - [283]
 

I've been doing some numbers comparing the Rock vs the Megathron (They are both supposed to be snipers):

Rock gets bonus to shield resists. If you compare the damage received after the resists buff in the Rock and in the Mega, each turret does about the same damage to the oponent but the extra turret in the Rock gives it a 13% advantage in damage:

Rock resistances to Th and Ki: 20% and 40%. After 25% bonus: 40% and 55% (47,5% average -> 52,5% goes through)

Mega resistances: 35% Th and Ki -> 65% goes through

Megathron would be doing:

7 Turrets * 52,5% (Rock resists) * 1,25 (Mega DMG bonus) = 4,59

Rock would be doing:

8 Turrets * 65% (Mega armor resists) * 1 (No dmg bonus) = 5,2

5,2 / 4,59 => Rock is 13% better than Mega, plus it still has the distance advantage.

Am I missing something? I know i didn't take into account the better tracking in the Megathron but i don't think that at sniping distances the better tracking closes the gap.



Paladineguru
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.10.30 19:29:00 - [284]
 

I just think that if the hyperion is going to be a blasterboat

it should get mwd bonus, not rep

and if it cant be better than a mega close range then it should be a missle boat in line with other ships of missle ability such as the eris and lachesis a damp bonus with a rof bonus to missles would be sweet just make it a hybrid mix so it wont be a raven in gallente clothing

Kalianyia
Divinus Talio
Posted - 2006.10.30 20:18:00 - [285]
 

Originally by: Paladineguru
I just think that if the hyperion is going to be a blasterboat

it should get mwd bonus, not rep


Hell no!

The 7.5% armor rep bonus is really nice.
Here are the numbers (w/ Armor Repair Systems V):
Normally:
LAR II: 800 armor every 11.25 seconds

With Hyperion Bonus(w/ Gallente BS V):
LAR II: 1100 armor every 11.25 seconds

If you mount two LAR II's:
Normally:
1600 armor every 11.25 seconds

Hyperion:
2200 armor every 11.25 seconds

The 7.5% armor rep bonus is HUGE. If you strip that away and give it a MWD bonus (say 10% reduced cap usage per level) the ship will go to utter crap. Using my Megathron most of the time I dont even need to use the MWD. When I do I use it at most two cycles. Two cycles doesnt hurt the cap too bad (at least nothing my cap injector cant handle).

Having the 7.5% armor rep bonus will be usefull the entire fight! And will increase survivabilty MUCH more than the extra cap you would have saved otherwise.

I think the Hyperion bonuses are great as they are. The only problem with it is: GIVE THE FREAKIN SHIP MORE GRID. Thank you.

Kalianyia
Divinus Talio
Posted - 2006.10.30 20:26:00 - [286]
 

Originally by: Zhull
I've been doing some numbers comparing the Rock vs the Megathron (They are both supposed to be snipers):

Rock gets bonus to shield resists. If you compare the damage received after the resists buff in the Rock and in the Mega, each turret does about the same damage to the oponent but the extra turret in the Rock gives it a 13% advantage in damage:

Rock resistances to Th and Ki: 20% and 40%. After 25% bonus: 40% and 55% (47,5% average -> 52,5% goes through)

Mega resistances: 35% Th and Ki -> 65% goes through

Megathron would be doing:

7 Turrets * 52,5% (Rock resists) * 1,25 (Mega DMG bonus) = 4,59

Rock would be doing:

8 Turrets * 65% (Mega armor resists) * 1 (No dmg bonus) = 5,2

5,2 / 4,59 => Rock is 13% better than Mega, plus it still has the distance advantage.

Am I missing something? I know i didn't take into account the better tracking in the Megathron but i don't think that at sniping distances the better tracking closes the gap.





Zhull you forgot that the Megathron gets a 5% damage bonus per level. The Rokh does not. At Gallente BS V, that means the Megathron gets a 25% damage bonus.

Megathron
7 turrets * 1.25 (damage bonus) = 8.75 effective turrets

Rokh
8 turrets * 1 (no damage bonus) = 8 effective turrets

So the Thron will still out damage the Rokh.

However, the optimal bonus and resist bonus of the Rokh will make it utterly pwn in fleet engagements. So in that case overall the Rokh > Thron for fleet battles (at least at extreme range).

One problem with the Rokh is it has less Grid than the Thron, and so trying to fit 8x 425mm Railgun II's is not going to be fun. Im not saying its impossible (I havent tried yet), but it is definately going to be a much tighter fit than fitting 7x 425mm Railgun II's on the Thron that has more grid.

Zhull
Republic Military School
Posted - 2006.10.30 21:03:00 - [287]
 

Originally by: Kalianyia
Originally by: Zhull
I've been doing some numbers comparing the Rock vs the Megathron (They are both supposed to be snipers):

Rock gets bonus to shield resists. If you compare the damage received after the resists buff in the Rock and in the Mega, each turret does about the same damage to the oponent but the extra turret in the Rock gives it a 13% advantage in damage:

Rock resistances to Th and Ki: 20% and 40%. After 25% bonus: 40% and 55% (47,5% average -> 52,5% goes through)

Mega resistances: 35% Th and Ki -> 65% goes through

Megathron would be doing:

7 Turrets * 52,5% (Rock resists) * 1,25 (Mega DMG bonus) = 4,59

Rock would be doing:

8 Turrets * 65% (Mega armor resists) * 1 (No dmg bonus) = 5,2

5,2 / 4,59 => Rock is 13% better than Mega, plus it still has the distance advantage.

Am I missing something? I know i didn't take into account the better tracking in the Megathron but i don't think that at sniping distances the better tracking closes the gap.





Zhull you forgot that the Megathron gets a 5% damage bonus per level. The Rokh does not. At Gallente BS V, that means the Megathron gets a 25% damage bonus.

Megathron
7 turrets * 1.25 (damage bonus) = 8.75 effective turrets

Rokh
8 turrets * 1 (no damage bonus) = 8 effective turrets

So the Thron will still out damage the Rokh.

However, the optimal bonus and resist bonus of the Rokh will make it utterly pwn in fleet engagements. So in that case overall the Rokh > Thron for fleet battles (at least at extreme range).

One problem with the Rokh is it has less Grid than the Thron, and so trying to fit 8x 425mm Railgun II's is not going to be fun. Im not saying its impossible (I havent tried yet), but it is definately going to be a much tighter fit than fitting 7x 425mm Railgun II's on the Thron that has more grid.


No, look at my numbers, i was comparing Damage after factoring the other ship resists.

"Megathron would be doing:

7 Turrets * 52,5% (Rock resists) * 1,25 (Mega DMG bonus) = 4,59"

You see, i am considering the damage bonus, but it is offset by the Rock resist bonus.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.30 21:27:00 - [288]
 

Originally by: Attak
Why not just change the Abbadon RoF bonus to damage? It'll still use all it's cap trying to fire those 8 tach's, but it won't be quite so horribly cap gimped. It would still force people to choose between a high damage fleet ship and an uber tank, which imo is good.



it would be somewhat better but overall still pretty useless. abaddon would still be nothing new with that change. it would still be a better version of our already existing bs only now using a bit less cap and having a better alpha.


Dristra
Amarr
Idle Haven
Posted - 2006.10.30 21:58:00 - [289]
 

Abaddon as a drone ship would be fun, then amarr can deal all 4 dmg types too... a boon in missions.

Atar
Perpetua Umbra
Brotherhood Of Steel
Posted - 2006.10.30 23:11:00 - [290]
 

I have to agree with the "Maelstorm an AC ship" Tempest already fills the fleet spot just fine, personally I wish all 4 of them were close range monsters, or fix the phoon, it's OK but could be a lot better.

Wraithborn
Gallente
Shadows of the Dead
Aftermath Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.31 01:56:00 - [291]
 

hey not sure if this was answered yet so ill ask
did the bc/bs stats change for all bc/bs or is it just for the new models?

Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.10.31 02:23:00 - [292]
 

Originally by: Kalianyia

The only problem with it is: GIVE THE FREAKIN SHIP MORE GRID. Thank you.



The hyperion only needs more grid to become effective in it's role; you can argue if the role is needed or not, but not that it's quite low on grid.

Denrace
Amarr
PURE Legion
Pure.
Posted - 2006.10.31 02:32:00 - [293]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor

I would love if a total redesign would be made, but I think thats unlikely. By the way, why is there no communication with Tuxford and the others about this? I think its pretty important that the tier 3 really brings something new to every race.



Seems a fair point, tbh.

1 Year in development - for ship bonuses any reasonably experienced EVE player could have come up with in 5 minutes.

Hyperion?

Faffing around for months - only to stick it with the same bonuses as a brutix.

Seriously - in terms of manpower, giving new ships decent bonuses really is not that difficult.


Fixing bugs and programming new features?

Now THAT is difficult.

FawKa
Gallente
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.10.31 06:07:00 - [294]
 

Originally by: Kalianyia
Originally by: Paladineguru
I just think that if the hyperion is going to be a blasterboat

it should get mwd bonus, not rep


Hell no!

The 7.5% armor rep bonus is really nice.
Here are the numbers (w/ Armor Repair Systems V):
Normally:
LAR II: 800 armor every 11.25 seconds

With Hyperion Bonus(w/ Gallente BS V):
LAR II: 1100 armor every 11.25 seconds

If you mount two LAR II's:
Normally:
1600 armor every 11.25 seconds

Hyperion:
2200 armor every 11.25 seconds

The 7.5% armor rep bonus is HUGE. If you strip that away and give it a MWD bonus (say 10% reduced cap usage per level) the ship will go to utter crap. Using my Megathron most of the time I dont even need to use the MWD. When I do I use it at most two cycles. Two cycles doesnt hurt the cap too bad (at least nothing my cap injector cant handle).

Having the 7.5% armor rep bonus will be usefull the entire fight! And will increase survivabilty MUCH more than the extra cap you would have saved otherwise.

I think the Hyperion bonuses are great as they are. The only problem with it is: GIVE THE FREAKIN SHIP MORE GRID. Thank you.



Problem is that you dont have PG for dual rep and guns at the same time. And you dont really have lowslots enough for tanking and dmg mods as the other ships.

The entire role of the Hype is just silly. We have discussed blasters with CCP several times, and they make another 'Deimos'-ship. With lack of PG to fit the blasters and a lack of slots to tank for. Geez.


RoCkEt X
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2006.10.31 07:20:00 - [295]
 

POST: issue with hyperion grid.

I could be wrong but:

-The hyperion is a blaster ship
-Blasters use less grid than rails.
-you shouldnt fit rails to a ship they are not designed for.
-The megathron is a railboat.

Nemain
Amarr
Eye of the Dragon
Posted - 2006.10.31 09:52:00 - [296]
 

Well untill I can get on the test server to try any of these ships out I am still holding the view I posted in another thread (can't be r'sed to type it out again :) ), though probably all been said thousands of times before (I've been away for a few months so missed alot of the discussion, though expect Kali to have been already implimented)

Originally by: Nemain
Edited by: Nemain on 31/10/2006 08:47:34
I would have liked to have seen the 3rd battleship for each race to have filled the 3rd racial role, much in the same the frigate and Cruiser equivilents do. I can see the reason for the reluctance to produce BS sized racial EW ships though. Unlike caldari, the other races EW specialities are served just as well by the cruiser/frig versions a they would be at BS level. Caldari were pretty much forced into the EW BS area as even when originally designed as a shield tanking rail boat the scorp was mostly used as an EW ship. However, appart from slots I do think that Scorp has 1 major advantage over the Blackbird, and that is BS level durability, and that is the reason why I personally think the 3rd racial BS for min, Gal and amarr should be EW based. Personally I'd go for

Hyperion

Same slot load out (or maybe 7/7/6) and speed/mass but the second bonus would be to Sensor dampners. That way you still have the Blaster boat (being able to kill a ships targetting range as you get into blaster range has to be a good thing), but now you also have the dual purpose fleet EW ship.

Maelstrom

Same slot layout again (or 7/7/6), but a TP bonus and damage bonus. So less potential DPS damage than a tempest, but far more accurate and damaging alpha strike as well as fleet suport EW.

Abaddon

A fair bit of an overhall on this one, I am still behind the drone/TD boat design personally as amarr don't need another fleet turret ship or tank. It would be easy to make it less on the drone front than the Domi though, just in the same way the Arb is to the Vexor. Give it a 6/6/8 slot layout, give it a weapon layout the same as the scorp (4 launchers 4 turrets, or 4 turrets, 2 launchers) a bonus to drones damage, Hp etc and a TD bonus. Now to stop the Domi pilot whines give it the same drone bay size as the Geddon. As in enough to hold 1 wave of Heavies, or at most a bay that can hold 1 wave of each size drone. The Domi then has the advantage of fielding multiple waves and types while the Abaddon can still do the same drone damage, but has less drone reserves. That gives the amarr a solo pvp BS (the other 2 are already fleet BS) and a fleet EW support ship.

With a little tinkering it seems a more balanced way of doing things to me, as well as giving each ship a more clearly defined role that still stick to racial doctrines.

Tho I'm probably wrong

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.31 12:29:00 - [297]
 

Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 31/10/2006 12:29:56
Originally by: Nemain

It would be easy to make it less on the drone front than the Domi though, just in the same way the Arb is to the Vexor.



arbi is not a lesser droneboat compared to the vexor. their drone capabilities are exactly the same. a bs sized droneboat should have at leat 200-250m3 dronespace to have some spares. 250 would give you 2 waves of heavies while the domi still has 3 waves.


Elfman
Combat-Evolved
Posted - 2006.10.31 14:26:00 - [298]
 

Originally by: RoCkEt X
POST: issue with hyperion grid.

I could be wrong but:

-The hyperion is a blaster ship
-Blasters use less grid than rails.
-you shouldnt fit rails to a ship they are not designed for.
-The megathron is a railboat.


Yep blasters do need less Pg than rails. But they also require you to fit a MWD and a cap booster.

MWD + Cap booster + guns == very little tank

blaster ship with little tank is a dead blaster ship

so you have to fit a lower rank of blasters to be able to fit a tank and mwd and booster for 1 more turret and a slight agility and speed boost.

tried it on test and yuck.

mega is a better blaster and rail roch is a better rail.

means the new ship is going to be used less than a mega.

the PG needs to be uped to allow to fit a full rack of ions + mwd + tank + cap booster. Then you can choose neut + mwd and little tank or tank and less DPS at the mo you have less dps less tank than a mega


PSEWAR
Amarr
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2006.10.31 14:27:00 - [299]
 

Edited by: PSEWAR on 31/10/2006 14:28:51
Altough my Drone Skills suck as I never have trained them much I really like the Droneship Idea for the Abaddon.

I think I do not have to outline here why the Abaddon is useless as it is desgined now as here are already many pages filled with the reasons.

As I agree that the Ship should also fit into the ideologie of the amarrian ship designs there should at least be one bonus for Damage or Tanking.
So it comes to my mind that the following bonuses would be very nice and make sure the ship also survives in fleet battles long enough to do some damage:

Special Ability: 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level and 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level.

For the Slot Layout there are also some good ideas written here, but I think that would need some testing with the above mentioned bonuses.

Edit: What I missed to say is that the Abaddon could even be a better Droneboat then the Dominix at least it will also probably cost 3 times the price of a dominix

AlexCA
Amarr
De Valken BV
Orange Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.31 14:56:00 - [300]
 

Droneship as amarr tier 3 however makes no sense from a backstory point of view. Most expensive T1 battleship in the amarrian fleet being a droneboat just seems odd.

not to mention the abaddon has 8 turret hardpoints modeled.


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