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blankseplocked What niche do the new BSs fill, Or, define Battleship roles please
 
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Idara
Caldari
Queens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.10.26 04:53:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Idara on 26/10/2006 05:05:13
The Amarr

Armageddon: "sustainable" (to a point) gank damage.
Apocalypse: Meant to outlast and out-tank with its huge cap.
Abaddon: Unsustainable DPS. Better tank than the Apoc?

I'm looking at these ships and thinking that they need to almost be redesigned. Armageddon is fine the way it is, it has the ROF bonus and a cap use bonus to keep it firing. It doesn't have a spectacular cap to tank *that* well with.

The Apocalypse is supposed to be the tank of the BSs. Hell, we have the Maller and the Prophecy in line with the Apoc. It should almost be changed so that it loses the cap bonus, gets a capacitor boost, and replaces the bonuses with 5% armour resists and a cap use bonus. Or make it a proper tank and steal the Gallente bonus. Or change to armour repper duration. Something that makes it a more well defined tank.

The Abaddon is stuck in no-man's-land. It can gank, briefly. It can tank better than the Apoc. It should almost inherit the Apocs +5% capacitor bonus to counterbalance its lack of a cap use bonus on it's lasers. The problem is, is that if you start switching bonuses and rearranging stats, you'll **** people off. If you introduce a BS that doesn't fill any niche that hasn't already been filled, Abaddon, you'll **** people off. I hate to say it, but the Abaddon should almost be a drone boat. We already have the Omen -> Harbinger -> Geddon line. We have the Maller -> Prophecy -> Apoc line. We should have the Arbitrator version in BS form. I know it's not proper Amarr, but the Abaddon does not fill any niche that hasn't already been filled, and it replaces the Apoc as a pure tank with its resists bonuses.

The Gallente

We have the progression for the Dominix. It's fine. We have the Megathron, which serves equally well as a fleet sniper and as a blasterboat. Now the Hyperion is supposed to come in and fill a gap, again, that is already occupied. The Megathron works as a blasterboat. It has damage and a tracking bonus, allowing it to hurt and hit a target in close. While tanking, at least on the approach, well enough to get into range. As a fleet sniper it's almost unmatched. Damage bonus + the natural optimal range of 425mms and enough grid to fit a full rack of them makes it very, very good at it. The Hyperion is not needed in its current form. Yes, it has 5 mids, so it can/has to fit a Tracking computer or dual webs so it can hit up close. It doesn't have enough grid to properly field an insane gank with a HP buffer tank. If anything, the Hyperion needs/should/don't-lynch-me-for-saying that it should be an EWAR boat. Give it sensor damp bonuses, let it cripple enemy fleets. Let it stand beside the sniperthrons and dampen the hell out of the targets so they can't fire back. Again, just like the Abaddon, the Hyperion is trying to force its way onto the scene into a role that is already adequately filled.

The Minmatar

Excuse me if I seem wrong, but I haven't had much time to familiarize myself with these ships. The Typhoon fills a role as a ship that you never really know what it's going to come at you with, people decry it, but it has something to its name. The Tempest is a sniper, and can work as a ACboat with its damage and ROF bonus. The Maelstrom is trying to be a fleet sniper with great alpha strikes. It's second bonus is pointless. Tux has said so, good for him for seeing it. The fears with the Maelstrom were that with a damage bonus and 8 turrets, it would absolutely wreck its target. But my reasoning is that it's supposed to do just that. With a 5% damage bonus, it would rip gaping holes in its target. Without an ROF it couldn't do that very often, but as a fleet ship, it would wtfpwn things when it fired, where alpha strikes really matter. I really can't suggest a second bonus for it. I don't know what it would need, and I admit that.

The Caldari are on the only ones getting a niche filled they don't already have a BS for. The others are getting new ships that don't have a role.

DarK
STK Scientific
Posted - 2006.10.26 06:25:00 - [2]
 

I agree, and generally Caldari are best off with getting well defined roles for their ships. As for Minmatar, they have missiles, drones, turrets, shield tank, armour tank etc, yet get another turret ship, yeah.

I generally think that the difficulty with Amarr is that they are just plain boring, as all they do is armour tank and shoot lasers.
The main point of difficulty is the fact that cap use is central to amarr ships and that 10% to laser cap use is basically a requirement for all of their ships, which I can imagine being rather boring for the Amarr player. So strike 1 ship bonus for the sake of stopping other races from using lasers because they have an in-built damage bonus.

As far as switching the apoc's cap bonus with the resistance bonus of the abbadon, you basically get a ship which is still useless as that 25% more cap wont make a huge difference and that you might aswell just give it the 10% laser cap use bonus, which would turn it into an Armageddon.

So either redesign the whole lot which would be a lengthy process doomed by promises of soonTM(wish I knew how to do superscript).

Or tread where many dare not and propose changing it into a Khanid design(dun dun duuuuun).
I cannot remember who proposed it but the proposal was for it to remain the same as it is now but with 6/7/8 missile hardpoints. That way you could choose either gank mode with lasers and no tank(or just alot of plates) or tank mode with missiles. However, this would grant it some flexibility and make Thewizz77(whatever) and some other tards unhappy because their beloved raven is no longer the only missile boat in town.

Failing that you could always fit 4 cap injectors and use 8 Dual heavy pulse?


Aeaus
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
Posted - 2006.10.26 06:42:00 - [3]
 

Abaddon should be a drone boat or something UNIQUE. A drone boat would make me very happy, right now the abaddon is just useless for anything but PURE sniping (geddon lagging a bit behind in that department) or a pure tank with Autocannons / Artillery.

Hyperion should be either an excellent fleet sniper or an excellent blaster-boat, pushing the Megathron to fill the other niche. As much as I hate to say it, it'll be better then a lacking blasterboat that the hyperion is.

The maelstrom should either be an excellent fleet sniper or an excellent AC-bost, the tempest be pushed the fill the other niche. Personally I'd rather the maelstrom be an AC-Boat, a little tweak with agility and speed and you've got one.

Tyler Lowe
DROW Org
Brotherhood of the Spider
Posted - 2006.10.26 06:57:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Aeaus
Personally I'd rather the maelstrom be an AC-Boat, a little tweak with agility and speed and you've got one.


You'd also need a pretty serious tweak to cargo space, but yes, the current bnouses are much more geared towards an AC boat than a fleet sniper.

Teis
Caldari
Posted - 2006.10.26 06:58:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Teis on 26/10/2006 06:58:28
Reading the spec's on the new battleship's makes me (and others too) more and more convinced that they will be some very nice low-sec mining ships Wink

Edit: Forgot that the macro miners will love them too Laughing

Laboratus
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2006.10.26 07:58:00 - [6]
 

I agree with the OP.

Tradionally Battleships have been defined as ship of the line. The centre of a task force, if you will. In eve, Battleships have usually been primary damage dealers and soakers, both giving out the main part of a fleets firepower or being on the receving end, hopefully going as bait and then moving out.

The ones we have do this quite well. No other shiptype can reach to the 200-250km ranges, where the Battleships can operate without interference from support ships or ECM boats. Or up close Battleships fitted for the task dish out multiple times more damage then any other ship. And can still with their numerous mid slots support the fleet with ECM, taking the edge off the enemy attack.

Now, with the upcoming new battleships and ECM nerf these roles will be changing. Rokh is propably the only one of the new ships that will be good in the boni that it has at the moment. The others are just a little bit... Unconventional. And the new ECM nerf will propably make close range fights even shorter than they are today. Forcing everyone to try to get to sniper ranges. And that will make life just a wee bit more boring than it is today.

Anyways, the new ships should have good well defined roles. That fit their races. A Caldari rail boat has been long coming, and is a good role, fitting the caldari ideology. The Gallanteans should according to description be into all things high tech and dandy, so an EW boat would be a great role there (or a combined Battleship/Luxury yacht with a hot tub in every room, who knows) with minmatar, it's always been crude, effective, lean and mean. But the amarr boat? Who knows. Triple damage boni? Laser Rof Damage and the inbuilt damage bonus in lasers? All gank with no sustainability? Would fit the profile.
At the moment the best use for most of the tier 3 battleships is merc mining. 8 turret slots and resistance boni are just perfect for that. However, aren't they supposed to be BattleShips, not oversized mining ships?


Just a few of my conserns.

Inanara
Posted - 2006.10.26 08:15:00 - [7]
 

The OP is right on the money for all of them..

EmbarassedShockedWhat exactly are they trying to do?? Ooooo Look a new shiny...I am going to stay in my Domi..

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.10.26 08:19:00 - [8]
 


Maelstrom doesnt get any bonuses to its alpha strike, hence its about as good as a apoc or any other 8-turret battleship at it.

Its a flawed ship. Bonuses (rof and shield boost) say skirmish autocannon boat, but they make it very slow to make that difficult for some reason. I dont think that nerf is needed tbh. Its not like the ship is going to kill everything in sight if it had some more speed.

Ishina Fel
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2006.10.26 08:22:00 - [9]
 

Not that Caldari need much defending, but really...

In between complaining about that Caldari are the only ones who get a ship in a perfectly fitting role, has it maybe occurred to people that this is because Caldari actually had a gaping hole there with no ship to fill it? (Imagine if every single Gallente batleship had huge drone bays, but only one or two turret slots.) Maybe the other factions did not have this gap, but already had a setup that covers nearly everything just fine? Granted, Caldari get three progression lines instead of two (missiles, hybrids, ECM), but do you really want to see even more EWAR ships?

Inanara
Posted - 2006.10.26 08:23:00 - [10]
 

When I heard Tier 3 BS I though I might see an IMPROVED Domi..

Laboratus
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2006.10.26 08:30:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Ishina Fel
do you really want to see even more EWAR ships?


Well...

Yes.

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.10.26 08:39:00 - [12]
 

Abaddon - Capping the Amarr dream of tank and gank in one. Get it? Capping the dream? Haha!

Rokh - The might and glory of the Caldari. That is - sit far away where no one else can touch you. Don't touch me! Ah!

Hyperion - Because if there's one thing Gallente love, it's repetition.

Maelstrom - True to Minmatar philosophy, it approaches fleet fights from the second hand store and buys into concepts everyone else rejected.

Was that a bit sarcastic? Oh, dear.

Kunming
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2006.10.26 08:41:00 - [13]
 

Just like I did before Kali testing, I'll talk about Amarr's 3 main ship concepts:

The Tanker (highest tier, usually): Apoc, maller, prophecy, etc
The Ganker (second tier, mot): Geddon, omen, harbinger...
The Skirmisher/EW (1st, lowest tier): Arbitrator, Crucifier, ???

IMO geddon should be changed to a bigger arbitrator (TD + Drone bonus), apoc the ganker (laser cap + RoF bonus) and abaddon the tanker (laser cap + resistance bonus). This would end all the whining and put the Amarr BSs back into their main concepts.

Laboratus
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2006.10.26 08:44:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Kunming
Just like I did before Kali testing, I'll talk about Amarr's 3 main ship concepts:

The Tanker (highest tier, usually): Apoc, maller, prophecy, etc
The Ganker (second tier, mot): Geddon, omen, harbinger...
The Skirmisher/EW (1st, lowest tier): Arbitrator, Crucifier, ???

IMO geddon should be changed to a bigger arbitrator (TD + Drone bonus), apoc the ganker (laser cap + RoF bonus) and abaddon the tanker (laser cap + resistance bonus). This would end all the whining and put the Amarr BSs back into their main concepts.



I quite agree this would make sense, but they rarely try to balance ships many at a time.

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.10.26 08:53:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Kunming
Just like I did before Kali testing, I'll talk about Amarr's 3 main ship concepts:

The Tanker (highest tier, usually): Apoc, maller, prophecy, etc
The Ganker (second tier, mot): Geddon, omen, harbinger...
The Skirmisher/EW (1st, lowest tier): Arbitrator, Crucifier, ???

IMO geddon should be changed to a bigger arbitrator (TD + Drone bonus), apoc the ganker (laser cap + RoF bonus) and abaddon the tanker (laser cap + resistance bonus). This would end all the whining and put the Amarr BSs back into their main concepts.


I'm telling you, it'd bring about a lot of Gallente whining. Drones are the main concept of Gallente, so as a drone carrier the Abaddon would have to be significantly worse than the Dominix, which is bleedin' hard to do when a tier 3 needs to be worse than a tier 1. (As I've detailed before, the only way to really do this is to move the Gallente drone to tier 3 and the Amarr drone to tier 1 - which incidentally, I'd like to do)
The Crucifier is clearly a turret ship and has nothing to do with drones, but what about the Tormentor? It's one of those lost Amarr concepts Twisted Evil

Kunming
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2006.10.26 09:01:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Kunming
Just like I did before Kali testing, I'll talk about Amarr's 3 main ship concepts:

The Tanker (highest tier, usually): Apoc, maller, prophecy, etc
The Ganker (second tier, mot): Geddon, omen, harbinger...
The Skirmisher/EW (1st, lowest tier): Arbitrator, Crucifier, ???

IMO geddon should be changed to a bigger arbitrator (TD + Drone bonus), apoc the ganker (laser cap + RoF bonus) and abaddon the tanker (laser cap + resistance bonus). This would end all the whining and put the Amarr BSs back into their main concepts.


I'm telling you, it'd bring about a lot of Gallente whining. Drones are the main concept of Gallente, so as a drone carrier the Abaddon would have to be significantly worse than the Dominix, which is bleedin' hard to do when a tier 3 needs to be worse than a tier 1. (As I've detailed before, the only way to really do this is to move the Gallente drone to tier 3 and the Amarr drone to tier 1 - which incidentally, I'd like to do)
The Crucifier is clearly a turret ship and has nothing to do with drones, but what about the Tormentor? It's one of those lost Amarr concepts Twisted Evil


Thats why I say the geddon (lowest tier) should be changed into the drone boat, the apoc will get rof bonus and the abaddon will be the tanker/fleet-sniper with resistance bonus and lotsa pg to fit tachs. Why should caldari be the only race with an EW BS? IMO other races should have some options too.

Just give domi a RSD bonus instead of the hybrid dmg bonus (with that dmg bonus it outdmges bthrons, which is wrong IMO). Also consider that domi can field many waves of heavies, while geddon can only field 1 wave of heavies. That way geddon and domi would be simply different with gallente having the advantage in drones.

Tareen Kashaar
Gyoza Society
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.10.26 14:45:00 - [17]
 

I agree, an EW Abbadon and Hyperion would be great.

For the Abbadon, someone suggested in a different thread to give it a Tracking Disrupt bonus and drones, like a beefed up Arbitrator. Give it 5 or 6 mids, 6 highs and whatever appropriate number of lows.

In a different MMO I've played there was a doctrine of "NO harder, faster, better" - instead it would be tried to diversify and make what was there more complex. The Abbadon as it is atm seems obsolete.

There are Amarr players who don't feel like training nothing but gunnery skills but still want to be efficient in fleet combat. Pleeease give them some love? Making the Abbadon an EW(=Tracking Disrupt) boat would be a step into the right direction.

What do others think about this?

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.26 14:58:00 - [18]
 

for the minmatar BS'es there was a thread started here that apparently noone bothered to discuss except me and other guy.

Ganandorf
Posted - 2006.10.26 15:02:00 - [19]
 

well the new BS are all gank+tank, top of the line

except for the abaddon ofcourse

Altyrior Motif
Posted - 2006.10.26 18:17:00 - [20]
 

From reading all the posts about the Abaddon, I think it does have a defined role. On one hand, you're not going to know whether the Abaddon that jumps through the gate at you is some sort of uber-tanking bait, or a high damage gank ship. It gives Amarr a little of that Matari "Oh no, what setups is he using?" spirit.

Additionally, it has a role as a (as people have said) non-sustainable high-damage dealer. 2-3 of these in a gang will quickly cut into the enemy fleet, but their damage will quickly fall off after the first minute. It will allow a smaller fleet to quickly cut down the size of an opposing group and allow your gang mates to do the rest. Also... it stands to alter the way we think of combat - no longer will fleets do the same DoT, but can now be tuned to have a high initial damage.

It's heavy fire support.

LoKesh
Amarr
Nex Exercitus
Posted - 2006.10.26 18:17:00 - [21]
 

....damn default. Above was me.

goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2006.10.26 18:23:00 - [22]
 

Lets think about the overall layout of these new battleships.

amarr:damage tank
gellente:damage tank
caldari:distance tank
minmatar:damage tank

Notice how their alike?They all have gun bonuses and tanking bonuses.

Now that can be related to closerange brawling,although due to that distance bonus thats sniping,and all the above would be great snipers themselves because they all have 8 turrets.

So you might now see how tux is going to make fleet battles last longer,better tank with every ship in the fleet...Longer lasting battles.

Also notice how all of the above have twice the hitpoints as their tier 2 counterparts Very Happy

Nir
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.26 18:30:00 - [23]
 

I wish the Amarr tier 3 was a ship that could sustain a tank and keep guns firing with a reasonable DPS to boot.

Our tier 1 is specialized in damage, our tier 2 is specialized in tanking. So for our third BS, why can't we get a ship that does both? Because that is what the Amarr lineup lacks. Something comparable to Ravens, Dominix and Tempests. Especially Ravens.

Is that really too much to ask?

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.10.26 18:36:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
for the minmatar BS'es there was a thread started here that apparently noone bothered to discuss except me and other guy.


We have discussed it before in other threads... :) I just keep repeating myself now and then, in the hope that someone will listen... ugh

Siakel
Posted - 2006.10.26 18:36:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: goodby4u
Lets think about the overall layout of these new battleships.

amarr:damage tank
gellente:damage tank
caldari:distance tank
minmatar:damage tank

Notice how their alike?They all have gun bonuses and tanking bonuses.

Now that can be related to closerange brawling,although due to that distance bonus thats sniping,and all the above would be great snipers themselves because they all have 8 turrets.

So you might now see how tux is going to make fleet battles last longer,better tank with every ship in the fleet...Longer lasting battles.

Also notice how all of the above have twice the hitpoints as their tier 2 counterparts Very Happy


They don't have twice the HP of the others. You're comparing Tier3 stats with Kali's +50% HP boost to our current ships with no boost.

As to the damage tank of the ships, the Abaddon is the only one that cannot use both bonuses at the same time effectively. The Gallente can fit low-tier Blasters and a heavy tank, the Caldari can fit rails or blasters with a heavy shield tank and damage mods, the Maelstrom can fit ACs and a heavy tank, or Arties and.. well, not much tank. Then the Abaddon, that can either tank with Hybrids or Projectiles, or Snipe with lasers and no tank(It's useless for close-range, as it's the exact same ship as an Armageddon in this situation, with one getting an extra turret and needing a cap injector, while the other gets two more drones and adds an EANM II, while the 'Geddon costs one third of the price).

goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2006.10.26 18:40:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Siakel
Originally by: goodby4u
Lets think about the overall layout of these new battleships.

amarr:damage tank
gellente:damage tank
caldari:distance tank
minmatar:damage tank

Notice how their alike?They all have gun bonuses and tanking bonuses.

Now that can be related to closerange brawling,although due to that distance bonus thats sniping,and all the above would be great snipers themselves because they all have 8 turrets.

So you might now see how tux is going to make fleet battles last longer,better tank with every ship in the fleet...Longer lasting battles.

Also notice how all of the above have twice the hitpoints as their tier 2 counterparts Very Happy


They don't have twice the HP of the others. You're comparing Tier3 stats with Kali's +50% HP boost to our current ships with no boost.

As to the damage tank of the ships, the Abaddon is the only one that cannot use both bonuses at the same time effectively. The Gallente can fit low-tier Blasters and a heavy tank, the Caldari can fit rails or blasters with a heavy shield tank and damage mods, the Maelstrom can fit ACs and a heavy tank, or Arties and.. well, not much tank. Then the Abaddon, that can either tank with Hybrids or Projectiles, or Snipe with lasers and no tank(It's useless for close-range, as it's the exact same ship as an Armageddon in this situation, with one getting an extra turret and needing a cap injector, while the other gets two more drones and adds an EANM II, while the 'Geddon costs one third of the price).


But what you dont see is even though it cannot fit this with a tank it still gets alot of HP and a resist bonus,its somewhat difficult to fit an armageddon with 8 tachyons and have the resists of an abaddon isnt it?O wait you dont have 8 turret slots Laughing

Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2006.10.26 19:04:00 - [27]
 

I disagree with the idea we should rigidly stick to frigate > cruiser > BS line of progression (Scorpion=EW boat was for example, a mistake in my opinion)

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.26 19:16:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 26/10/2006 19:16:30
Originally by: Altyrior Motif
From reading all the posts about the Abaddon, I think it does have a defined role. On one hand, you're not going to know whether the Abaddon that jumps through the gate at you is some sort of uber-tanking bait, or a high damage gank ship.


which can also be done with geddon or apoc. well the uber damage part maybe not on the apoc but you can definately put a nice tank on a geddon. so while that may be a role it is most certainly not a new role. notice the subtle difference and reason why we dont need this ship.


Originally by: goodby4u

But what you dont see is even though it cannot fit this with a tank it still gets alot of HP and a resist bonus,its somewhat difficult to fit an armageddon with 8 tachyons and have the resists of an abaddon isnt it?O wait you dont have 8 turret slots


so bascily it does what the geddon does but is slightly better at it? nothing that would constitue a new role here either then.


Byzan Zwyth
Firebird Squadron
Terra-Incognita
Posted - 2006.10.26 19:35:00 - [29]
 

CCP realy pulled a rabit out of the bag with the new amarr BS, what a load of crap lol

another projectile boat? yay!

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.26 19:41:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Grimpak
for the minmatar BS'es there was a thread started here that apparently noone bothered to discuss except me and other guy.


We have discussed it before in other threads... :) I just keep repeating myself now and then, in the hope that someone will listen... ugh



queue in Daft Punk music - One more timeCool


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