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blankseplocked Warp Core Stabs (WCS) FINALLY eat it.
 
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Kalissa
Sacred Templars
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2006.10.25 11:51:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Kalissa on 25/10/2006 11:52:26
I am absolutely delighted to see this nerf being put on WCS's. Our alliance deals mainly in 0.0 but occasionally we do go killing in low sec, 0.4 systems and below are supposed to be riskier thats the whole point. Some combat pilots in 0.0 nerf their own setups so much just to fit stabilizers "just incase" and all they end up doing is becoming a self fulfilling prophecy, because they left off those damage mods they do end up losing the fight and needing to use their WCS.

I have no arguement with someone transporting a ship and having stabs fitted, nor do I with having them on haulers, thats what makes this nerf fair in my opinion, it only affects the people who want to have their cake and eat it.

Because we hang around the pure blind region so much we in Triumvirate know all the main culrpits in the area who always fight with stabs and right now I'm sat here with a really smug grin on my face as I know just how royally screwed they are now, and believe me there are some around who will be absolutely FUBAR'd (you know who you are)and now they will have to put their money where their mouth is. Hell we've seen Crows with WCS fitted, Eagles with them (an Eagle fgs!! You need every low slot you have!!)

To any who lose their courage to come to 0.0 because of this, then all I have to say is go back to high sec with your tail between your legs and hide under your bed. If you want 0.0 combat, you now have to take a risk to do it. Lets see how many are upto it. Twisted Evil


arutha
Jian Products Engineering Group
Atlas.
Posted - 2006.10.25 11:56:00 - [62]
 

omg gonna agree with a d00m member but here goes . i agree kallisa .

finally we will seperate the pvp men from the boys . yay for ccp

Hermia
Steel Daggers
Sev3rance
Posted - 2006.10.25 11:58:00 - [63]
 

Sensationalizing the detremental effects of this neuf is completely un-warrented, maybe some people are out of there comfort zone but honestly... "Subscriptions will suffer", "miners are limited", "agent runners will hurt". lol, guys its not that bad.

I can see how the solo crowd see this as 'game destroying' but maybe things were never ment to be that easy, I hope it does slow down mining and agenting especially. Minerals and iskies need to have more worth behind them (through the necessity of team play), were in a multiplayer game after all.

but atleast everyone of all carrier paths can agree that griefers have more problems to think about Smile

Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2006.10.25 11:58:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Kalissa
Edited by: Kalissa on 25/10/2006 11:52:26
I am absolutely delighted to see this nerf being put on WCS's. Our alliance deals mainly in 0.0 but occasionally we do go killing in low sec, 0.4 systems and below are supposed to be riskier thats the whole point. Some combat pilots in 0.0 nerf their own setups so much just to fit stabilizers "just incase" and all they end up doing is becoming a self fulfilling prophecy, because they left off those damage mods they do end up losing the fight and needing to use their WCS.

I have no arguement with someone transporting a ship and having stabs fitted, nor do I with having them on haulers, thats what makes this nerf fair in my opinion, it only affects the people who want to have their cake and eat it.

Because we hang around the pure blind region so much we in Triumvirate know all the main culrpits in the area who always fight with stabs and right now I'm sat here with a really smug grin on my face as I know just how royally screwed they are now, and believe me there are some around who will be absolutely FUBAR'd (you know who you are)and now they will have to put their money where their mouth is. Hell we've seen Crows with WCS fitted, Eagles with them (an Eagle fgs!! You need every low slot you have!!)

To any who lose their courage to come to 0.0 because of this, then all I have to say is go back to high sec with your tail between your legs and hide under your bed. If you want 0.0 combat, you now have to take a risk to do it. Lets see how many are upto it. Twisted Evil




QTF.. Amen

Syllke Aronstein
Gallente
Le Moulin Rouge
Posted - 2006.10.25 12:00:00 - [65]
 

Great to see this change, I allways instructed pilots that WCS were for people who wanted to loose a fight, and should only go on miners and haulers.

Would however like to see a more sliding scale of Warp scrambling rather than going up in intergers, the rest of the EVE world seems to work on percentages, except this.

Luke Pubcrawler
Posted - 2006.10.25 12:02:00 - [66]
 

quote=spurious signal]
For anyone else, it's still business as usual. Travelling? Fit WCS. Reach destination. Dock. Refit.

Anyone who's going to boycot lowsec/0.0-sec because of the WCS changes is under a false impression that they give any real security. Sooner or later, someone with enough friends to cancel all your WCS will jump in next to you and blow you to kingdom come; change or no change.



While it is true that WCS won't protect you from the mass gank they would from individual pirates and some protection was better than nothing.

Until recently I sometimes ratted and ran missions in lowsec leading to a few tussles with pirates, mostly much more experienced than myself, which usually cost me a ship. Fitting a WCS or two meant I had a sporting chance to get away. Remember even these individual pirates had me badly out SP and outgunned - their 18 month old character in PvP fully T2 Thorax (typical example) vs my 4 month character in PvE caracal or ferox. If my WCS got me away that was good, if it was not enough then that was fair too, I accept life in Eve is meant to be harsh.

Eventually I limited missions to high sec and ratting operations to 0.0. More profit, less risk as it is much easier to see a pirate coming in an empty system. As I said,b efore moving to 0.0 I occassionally lost a ship to pirates despite WCS and would have lost more had I not had one fitted. In 0.0 I don't bother with the WCS and have not lost a ship since moving there a or so month back. I have almost stopped mission running now as it is simply too dull.

Post Kali if I wanted to move back to lowsec I will suffer additional penalties for fitting a WCS that makes ratting/missioning more difficult but makes my WCS no more effective than before.

Sorry Pirates, this is one potential target that will never be seen lowsec again. There were much better ways for CCP to penalise excessive use of stabs - increas their fitting requirements and make them active modules would be first choice, yet they picked one that hurt people who were not abusing them, frankly thats a bad development choice.

dennyreborn
Posted - 2006.10.25 12:05:00 - [67]
 

they should make it where thier is no penalty for fitting 2 WCS.s however fittign 3 or more should carry cummuntive results. after all if you cant produce 3 war scram stregth then you deserve to watch your prey get away.

Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2006.10.25 12:07:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Luke Pubcrawler
Until recently I sometimes ratted and ran missions in lowsec leading to a few tussles with pirates, mostly much more experienced than myself, which usually cost me a ship. Fitting a WCS or two meant I had a sporting chance to get away. Remember even these individual pirates had me badly out SP and outgunned - their 18 month old character in PvP fully T2 Thorax (typical example) vs my 4 month character in PvE caracal or ferox. If my WCS got me away that was good, if it was not enough then that was fair too, I accept life in Eve is meant to be harsh.

Eventually I limited missions to high sec and ratting operations to 0.0. More profit, less risk as it is much easier to see a pirate coming in an empty system. As I said,b efore moving to 0.0 I occassionally lost a ship to pirates despite WCS and would have lost more had I not had one fitted. In 0.0 I don't bother with the WCS and have not lost a ship since moving there a or so month back. I have almost stopped mission running now as it is simply too dull.

Post Kali if I wanted to move back to lowsec I will suffer additional penalties for fitting a WCS that makes ratting/missioning more difficult but makes my WCS no more effective than before.

Sorry Pirates, this is one potential target that will never be seen lowsec again. There were much better ways for CCP to penalise excessive use of stabs - increas their fitting requirements and make them active modules would be first choice, yet they picked one that hurt people who were not abusing them, frankly thats a bad development choice.


A simple and very very effective trick for avoiding pirate ganks in low sec whilst ratting is to immediatly go up or down and let the rats chase you as you move away from the ecliptic and obvious warp ins for gankers.. This simple tactic will save you 95% of the time as you have more than enough time to align and warp away..

Raneru
Combat and Recon
Posted - 2006.10.25 12:21:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: Raneru on 25/10/2006 12:21:24
Originally by: Hermia
I can see how the solo crowd see this as 'game destroying' but maybe things were never ment to be that easy ... were in a multiplayer game after all.



QFT. There are lots of ways to avoid getting ganked without resorting to WCS. These mostly involve interacting with fellow eve players instead of going it alone.

Bloody Sabbath
Posted - 2006.10.25 12:27:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Raneru
Edited by: Raneru on 25/10/2006 12:21:24

QFT. There are lots of ways to avoid getting ganked without resorting to WCS. These mostly involve interacting with fellow eve players instead of going it alone.


QFT!

Gaven Blands
Caldari
Cosmic Fusion
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2006.10.25 12:36:00 - [71]
 

Somebody said it would lead to less players in low sec.

Well I for one was days away from starting low sec ratting. Having seen the nerf, I won't be there. So that's one less carebear for you to 8 man gank lame, saying "YARR!" a lot to make you look somehow "not lame". Looks like you'll have to run more GAYte CAMPs to get your kicks from now on. That is just so "Eve".

As with any community, the worse they behave, the worse it gets. You made your bed, you lie in it.

Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2006.10.25 12:46:00 - [72]
 

Why do people think its so dangerous to rat in low sec? As long as you dont warp in to the belt at 15km and you use the slightest bit of caution you should rarely ever get caught.. It seems every video I see of pirates ganking ratters the ratter was sitting imobile at the 15km warp in blindly shooting away with no clue that evey pirate in the world is going to warp in at that same 15km.. Rats use MWD so warp in at some other random distance and let them come to you.. Cripes how hard is it to use some common sense? Rolling Eyes

Pax Althaleen
Amarr
Posted - 2006.10.25 12:52:00 - [73]
 

It IS true to say that this will prompt alot more thought about going into Low Sec and 0.0. Many will simply NOT do It now with this WCS Nerf coming.

All I'm simply stating is that It will be a HUGE Factor in whether Newer Peeps will venture out there - Plain and simple...

Now I've seen a fair amount of Discussion in the Forums about how Empty Low Sec and 0.0 can be and that those that live in these Areas would like to see more Targets - Er Uhmmmm - Pilots I mean in those Areas.

I honestly don't see how a Nerf like this would promote anything BUT more of the same behaviour of staying in NPC CORPs and never going into Low Sec or 0.0

Personally - I was about to make a move out into 0.0 but now this has Me thinking that I'll just see how the Wind Blows and postpone My trip until after Kali "1" comes out.

Now You can say what You want about that but Daddy didn't raise no fool. I will as others - Calculate My Odds and act accordingly but I am sure that alot of other Peeps will be doing the same. This WCS Nerf will figure prominently in that thinking...

Regards,

Gaven Blands
Caldari
Cosmic Fusion
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2006.10.25 13:01:00 - [74]
 

"Come to low sec, it's SAFE as long as you as are smart and uber!"

Sorry did the word "Pirate" appear in your name?

Well my smart and uberness says "Don't fall for whatever pirates say, ever".
People can't control themselves, so I'll stay where Concord control them thanks.

Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2006.10.25 13:04:00 - [75]
 

lol never said uber.. and ignore the 'pirate' in my name.. im simply a no sp forum alt.. Razz

Soraya Silvermoon
State Protectorate
Posted - 2006.10.25 13:11:00 - [76]
 

For thouse of u who cristisized the Badger setup.. you`d be amazed how many of thouse 4point and 6 point inties I`ve evaded with that thing.. and to jam someone you need to lock em.. have you ever tried locking anything in an indy? takes 2 hours :D That setup were especially nice if u had to dodge enemies in an area you dont have instas in.

2 sensorboosters had just the right time to lock and jam an inty and get out on structure (badger II only have 3 lows for warpcore)

But I was just pointing out that haulers will get nerfed by theese changes to and aye ECM is being nerfed so it doesnt matter.

I`m not whining I`m just pointing out possibillities.

And no I havent kitted out a blocade runner :D I train stuff like Guns n such...

Xsag
Caldari
Red Galaxy
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2006.10.25 13:16:00 - [77]
 

I must be honest ive been playing less than 3 weeks and am trying to get into construction / production and hence need some of those rarer harder to get how is this going to affect me?

sorry n00b

Wayback
Cosmic Odyssey
YouWhat
Posted - 2006.10.25 13:19:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Wayback on 25/10/2006 13:19:20
I think it all works out in the wash. If you look at it from a carebare vs. pirate stance the pvper/pirates get a wcs nerf and the carebares get to keep local with added percs for spotting hostiles even eaiser.

There has always been ships blowing up in low sec and there will continue to be ships blown up in low sec this will change nothing.


On a side note there is no such thing as an ugly woman, there are just some alot better looken then others.

Zixxa
Posted - 2006.10.25 13:24:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Why do people think its so dangerous to rat in low sec? As long as you dont warp in to the belt at 15km and you use the slightest bit of caution you should rarely ever get caught.. It seems every video I see of pirates ganking ratters the ratter was sitting imobile at the 15km warp in blindly shooting away with no clue that evey pirate in the world is going to warp in at that same 15km.. Rats use MWD so warp in at some other random distance and let them come to you.. Cripes how hard is it to use some common sense? Rolling Eyes

It is not difficult to rat in lowsec for EXPERIENCED pilot. Beginner WILL LOSE the ship very-very quickly. Because if you are hunting solo you must warp away to SAF asap if somebody unknown enters local. If you are member of prosper corporation( from good alliance) this task is not difficult - you have intel, you have support, you have good advices, you have patrols. But being in young corp or solo is really annoying and troublesome.
But it is not my problem, really. It is problem of CCP how to encourage carebears and noobs live in lowsec and below.

Detavi Kade
Posted - 2006.10.25 13:27:00 - [80]
 

It's a wash, for me.

I've ratted many hours in lowsec, and have never used stabs. Never has any pirate forced me into combat without me wanting the combat. It's called watching local, staying away from the warp in point, and being aligned in bigger ships.

If you're ratting in a frig, be ready to warp out. You still need to orbit and all that to avoid damage, but your ship aligns so quickly that it shouldn't matter. If you're in a bigger ship, i.e. cruiser/bc, you should be aligned, preferably already going ~50% of your max speed anyway.

I didn't cry out for a stab nerf, but now that it's happened, I still don't care. Adapt. My corp and I will.

Jane Spondogolo
NoobWaffe
Posted - 2006.10.25 13:38:00 - [81]
 

Im more than a little worried about some of these changes basically meaning a *huge* increase in blob tactics.

Moving a T2 battleship around systems? Better get a blob (already hard enough with the insta nerf) because the 3 stabs you use to escape gate intys now render you impotent. Planning on killing a dread thats sieging your POS (Rumor has it theres been a 500% hp increase, which is ..... mad) better get a BIG blob (but uh oh, what about that lag hey?).. It goes on.

The problem with all this, is I'm seeing lots of changes that seem to be driven by the sort of crazy forum consensus we see here. The problem is however, there IS no consensus in eve. Theres lots of self-interest positions that are often at odds. Theres pirates who don't like things to run away. Theres haulers who would *like* to run away. Theres alliances who would like dreads to be more survivable. Theres alliances who wish dreads where easier to pop. All sorts of different perspectives. The problem is, CCP in its quest to listen to the public (well, maybe it didnt with instas. I really think CCP messed that up and created a gross disadvantage for newer players) hasnt really put it all together to see how it affects final balance.

Oh god, don't get me started on gate guns.

The problem is , in my opinion, that these changes will ultimately entrench entrenched powers in the game, and *seriously* disadvantage young characters. And thats a bad thing. Do the "big boys" of 0.0 *REALLY* need a more solid grip. No I'd argue. But interestingly, the one thing the whole game DOES agree on, is that POS wars suck eggs. And its going to get worse folks. NOTHING is stopping POS spamming, and blobbings about to get a whole lot worse.

C'mon CCP, rather than tinkering around the edges, do something RADICAL, and get rid of battlestar POS wars and come up with something really exciting.

And yeah, I'm biased re stabs. I <3 my "burn eden" style raven setup.

Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2006.10.25 14:01:00 - [82]
 

I actually really liked the idea of making POS's spawn with almost no shields and having to 'charge up' slowly over time unless charged from multiple capitol ships. Would make a huge dent in the POS spamming syndrome. A POS with no shields is VERY easy to take out.

The problem with battlestar POS's is that they require such a huge friggen fleet to take down... 5-6 dreads... a fleet to protect the dreads.... etc.

Hythloday
Posted - 2006.10.25 14:07:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Jane Spondogolo
Moving a T2 battleship around systems? Better get a blob (already hard enough with the insta nerf) because the 3 stabs you use to escape gate intys now render you impotent.

If you're just moving it from A to B you're not going to want to fight anything, you're just going to deliver it in one piece, so in that respect WCS still do their job. I only use WCS for non combat, like when moving something valuable or shopping for skills during an empire war, if I do get engaged I'll do my best to fight back, if I can't then I'll 'tacticly withdraw' Wink. Using stabs as part of a combat setup always has been seen as cowardly, generally used on ships looking to gank weak and easy targets with the WCS there in case they meet something they can't handle (like a pvp ship setup Rolling Eyes).

If you can't afford to lose the ship you're using, you shouldn't be flying it in pvp, that's the rule.

Luke Pubcrawler
Posted - 2006.10.25 14:15:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus
Why do people think its so dangerous to rat in low sec? As long as you dont warp in to the belt at 15km and you use the slightest bit of caution you should rarely ever get caught.. It seems every video I see of pirates ganking ratters the ratter was sitting imobile at the 15km warp in blindly shooting away with no clue that evey pirate in the world is going to warp in at that same 15km.. Rats use MWD so warp in at some other random distance and let them come to you.. Cripes how hard is it to use some common sense? Rolling Eyes


I am not trying to suggest that it is suicidal to lowsec mission run or rat, you are quite right there are ways to make it much less dangerous.

However in nerfing the combat ability of stabbed ships CCP have nerfed the ships of lowsec misson runners and ratters. We do fit stabs with and legitimate reason - we are not fitted for PVP and want to avoid a fight with another player. Now if I take the most elementary precaution against pirates and fit a stab or two I totally nerf my PVE setup.

I have no problem with PvP and am no coward but I can see no reason to lowsec mission in my Raven without either:

A) gimping it by adding a stab or two - start to lock, make tea, lock. Not only does this make my mission harder but means whatever slim chance I had against a pirate who could scramble me has gone.

B) offering it as a gift to any pirate who can catch me in the mission and has a single scrambler.


I am not Tiller, I cannot plough through missions in record time, 6 month old players in regularly fitted ships can't. A lvl 4 can take us all evening, and your average player lasts around 6 months. At that rate I need to do dozens of level 4s to pay for the Raven and replace implants if I get podded. So say 20 evenings in lowsec without a WCS before I break even ?

We are constantly told "risk vs reward" and "don't fly what you can't afford to lose". Fine, nerf WCS and you increase my risk to the point where entering lowsec is pointless.


Larkonis Trassler
Doctrine.
Posted - 2006.10.25 14:16:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Sean Dillon
Edited by: Sean Dillon on 25/10/2006 11:24:50
This seriously sucks for combat, every time u get a 2v1 ur dead.

If u enter a lvl 4 without WCS ur asgood as dead, if ur tank dies and no way to get out scrambling rats u die.

They don't seem to have any brains at CCP, WCS needed nerfing but not so to make combat completely worthless whenever u fit just even one. It even encourage blobage and gankage.

I admit I use WCS very often, but just for tactical reasons a BS is worthless when it gets trapped by an assault frigates thats why I use WCS to prevent that and get away. This nerf really sucks for situations like that.

If this nerf make it through I am cancelling my subscrition. What is the point of this if it makes me die in a lvl 4 because I can't get out like it used to be for 3 years now.


Um... BUHU?
Maybe you should re-evaluate how you approach Level 4s, put a bit of thought into them etc etc... I solo Level 4's all the time without WCS OR Faction gear and I rarely need to warp out... and I always make sure the Scrambling ships are top on my list of priorities... Get a grip, if you've been doing level 4s for 3 years then you should be doing them in your sleep by now... Get out and PVP!

For people who complain about there being plenty of ways to stop ships ie Bubbles and dictors... DUH!! Ever been to low-sec, ever been in an Empire war?

I'm really glad of these changes... might make it possible to be able to take down a sniper with less than 3 or 4 ships and put an end to people starting fights then wussing out.

Well done CCP!

Scoundrelus
The Black Fleet
Posted - 2006.10.25 14:17:00 - [86]
 

This isn't meant as a flame or anything... but how will Burn Eden change their tactics to accomodate this? Kinda curious...

Polinus
Caldari
Emptiness.
Posted - 2006.10.25 14:26:00 - [87]
 

Well something i want is that not everybody have a scram. Otherwise the stab effect will be just opposed. No one will start anything.

So dev should consider slight increase in scram fitting req so that not VEREY ship flies with one. Otherwise I (and most) will neve rver take any risk against any ship not much much weaker.

Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2006.10.25 14:26:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Pax Althaleen
It IS true to say that this will prompt alot more thought about going into Low Sec and 0.0. Many will simply NOT do It now with this WCS Nerf coming.

All I'm simply stating is that It will be a HUGE Factor in whether Newer Peeps will venture out there - Plain and simple...

Now I've seen a fair amount of Discussion in the Forums about how Empty Low Sec and 0.0 can be and that those that live in these Areas would like to see more Targets - Er Uhmmmm - Pilots I mean in those Areas.

I honestly don't see how a Nerf like this would promote anything BUT more of the same behaviour of staying in NPC CORPs and never going into Low Sec or 0.0

Personally - I was about to make a move out into 0.0 but now this has Me thinking that I'll just see how the Wind Blows and postpone My trip until after Kali "1" comes out.

Now You can say what You want about that but Daddy didn't raise no fool. I will as others - Calculate My Odds and act accordingly but I am sure that alot of other Peeps will be doing the same. This WCS Nerf will figure prominently in that thinking...

Regards,


Erm
I live in lowsec
I never equip stabs unless there is, literally, nothing better to put there (which, since I use a ferox and/or a Caracal, means I never equip stabs unless in travel mode).

If I'm ratting I'm combat fitted
If I'm PVP'ing I'm combat fitted
If I'm mining (in an osprey) I'm MINING fitted

none of those fittings includes WCS

0.0 (and lowsec) is fairly easy to survive in.

1) Never warp to 15km
2) Make your own BM's so you can warp in at odd distances
3) Never fight on the ecliptic
4) In larger ships always fight aligned.

You will almost never get ganked.

People who equip stabs are generally people who die. Rig to win. Not to run.

Elianidd Farseeker
Posted - 2006.10.25 14:40:00 - [89]
 

"However in nerfing the combat ability of stabbed ships CCP have nerfed the ships of lowsec misson runners and ratters. We do fit stabs with and legitimate reason - we are not fitted for PVP and want to avoid a fight with another player. Now if I take the most elementary precaution against pirates and fit a stab or two I totally nerf my PVE setup."

What he said.

As always, PvEers suffer for the sake of PvP game abuse.

Couldn't they have found a different/better way to "nerf" the WCS sniper abuse without totally screwing low-sec PvEers? It'll be ironic how many MORE cries we'll be having for more people in low-sec after this, since this change will "scare" people out of low-sec even more than currently.

To me, this sounds like a "knee-jerk" type reaction rather than something truly thought-out.


Novan Leon
Posted - 2006.10.25 14:43:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Novan Leon on 25/10/2006 14:56:48
I'm not sure if I'm for or against this change but let me ask one thing.

Doesn't this hurt PvE-ers in lowsec the most out of everyone? (ie. because they still perform a combat role, just not a PvP role)


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