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Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2006.10.24 17:34:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Hoshi on 24/10/2006 19:23:18
Edit: Full new post with more info etc.
Disconnected again but more info for you.

Probe 1
Probe 2

A few things to notice here. All the specific sensor type probes have too large volume to be used by a recon launcher. So you need the standard launcher. They are also big enough that you won't carry many of them in a covert ops. Really need a hauler or something to use them.

Now here is a problem, if you mount a standard probe launcher on a non covert ops ship and train the rank 8!!! skill to level 5 it will take 300 sec (5 min) to run a scan. But if you use the Shift probe it has max flight time of 300 sec. Add a few sec for the probe launcher to cycle and it will time out the probe before the scan finsh...

Testing of these probes is going to be VERY slow because the scan speed skill is not seeded.

One of the largest complaints about the old scan system was that it took too long to probe. In the new system the time is cut in half if you use the recon launcher (which means you can not use sensor specific probes) and dubbled if you use the standard launcher.

Will get back with specifics about how the scanning works when I get back on the server.

Magunus
The Forsakened Few
Green Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.24 17:38:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Hoshi
Never got a chance to test it as I lost sever connection and are now #300 in queue but here are some info at least:

Astrometrics changed to allow 3 more scan groups per level.
2 new skills, one thart increase probe sensor strenght by 5% (I think it was) per level and one that decrease scan time by 10% per level (and is a rank 8 skill...).

Lots of new probes and I mean LOTS. The current probes are still there with slightly changed stats and have around 2-20 sensor strenght to all 4 kinds (same type of sensor strengh that ecm use).

Then there are 3-4 new probes, all which comes in 4 version, one for each sensor type. They have 500 to primary sensor type strenght and 100 to the rest.

1 new scan probe launcher, Recon launcher, almost same fitting (2pg instead of 1) much less cargo space (4 m3 instead of 40 m3) and 120 sec scan time instead of 600sec.

That's all I had time to check before I was disconnected, will try to get more info soon.


Wait a second. You mean to find a ship in space, you first have to know what race that ship belongs to?

Wicaeed
Amarr
Posted - 2006.10.24 17:40:00 - [3]
 

I am kind of disappointed with the current changes taht are being proposed. I am against the idea of cloaked ships being able to be scanned out, in theory anyways. Cloaked ships should be unscannable. Period. But this is Eve, and the carebears always have to have their say.

What I would like to see is that Covert Ops Cloaking Device II's be made so that you can not be scanned out in them. It would make sense because it is used by a ship that specialises in cloaking. It's not used by some guy who slapped a T2 Cloak on his battleship so he could go around and terrorize miners. It is a specific fit module that is only used by a handful of ships in the game, and paying 70m for it would actually make sense if you couldn't be scanned out while using it.

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2006.10.24 19:49:00 - [4]
 

Bump as I updated the initial post a lot.

Guurzak
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.10.24 20:01:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Magunus
Wait a second. You mean to find a ship in space, you first have to know what race that ship belongs to?


That can't be the case, since the recon probes are omni sensor.

I would speculate that the different sensor types are used for finding different types of spacial phenomena. Maybe one is specialized for ships, one for asteroid belts, one for complexes, and one for gas clouds, or something along those lines.

Hectaire Glade
Forum Jockey
Posted - 2006.10.24 20:24:00 - [6]
 

Be interested to see if you can get this working, i was scanning earlier with the new system and didnt get a single result set back, seemed borked to me. Keep up the good work :)

Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.24 20:38:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Wicaeed
I am kind of disappointed with the current changes taht are being proposed. I am against the idea of cloaked ships being able to be scanned out, in theory anyways. Cloaked ships should be unscannable. Period. But this is Eve, and the carebears always have to have their say.


Yes, nothing is more carebear than removing the ability to permasafespot with cloaks. Man, covert ops cloaks sure are pretty hardcore - what with being effectively invincible and all?

My heart is pumping already.

Popsikle
Minmatar
Caffeine Commodities Company
Posted - 2006.10.24 20:42:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg
Originally by: Wicaeed
I am kind of disappointed with the current changes taht are being proposed. I am against the idea of cloaked ships being able to be scanned out, in theory anyways. Cloaked ships should be unscannable. Period. But this is Eve, and the carebears always have to have their say.


Yes, nothing is more carebear than removing the ability to permasafespot with cloaks. Man, covert ops cloaks sure are pretty hardcore - what with being effectively invincible and all?

My heart is pumping already.


Eh, you put an 70-80 mil isk module on a ship, so you can help your gang/alliance/whatever. Realize you just spend this isk on a ship, and the module to no benifit to yourself and then tell me that 80mil isnt worth being able to safespot cloaked, when you gotta take a ****.

It removes one of the biggest reasons for a recon/covert ops... Recon. If you can scan out cloaked targets, you can scan them out at gates, and remove the whole role of the recon ships from the game....

d'hofren
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.10.24 23:02:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg
Originally by: Wicaeed
I am kind of disappointed with the current changes taht are being proposed. I am against the idea of cloaked ships being able to be scanned out, in theory anyways. Cloaked ships should be unscannable. Period. But this is Eve, and the carebears always have to have their say.


Yes, nothing is more carebear than removing the ability to permasafespot with cloaks. Man, covert ops cloaks sure are pretty hardcore - what with being effectively invincible and all?

My heart is pumping already.


Eh, you put an 70-80 mil isk module on a ship, so you can help your gang/alliance/whatever. Realize you just spend this isk on a ship, and the module to no benifit to yourself and then tell me that 80mil isnt worth being able to safespot cloaked, when you gotta take a ****.

It removes one of the biggest reasons for a recon/covert ops... Recon. If you can scan out cloaked targets, you can scan them out at gates, and remove the whole role of the recon ships from the game....



No, It just means that mr cov ops has to move around a little.

Afk stationary cloaking = vulnerable
Piloted cloaking = fine, in 300 secs, hell in 60 secs any cloaked pilot worth his salt will be well out of scan result decloak range. So maybe a modicum of risk hinges on if the scan result is the cloaked ships position at the beginning of the scan cycle or the end.

Only an eegit sits around in a cloaked ship if there is currently any chance a fast moving hostile saw where you cloaked. This just adds the same proviso to cloaking 23/7.




Giant Haystacks
Ore Mongers
Black Hand.
Posted - 2006.10.25 10:21:00 - [10]
 

Can someone check the fitting costs of the Recon Probe Launcher? The coldfront db shows 880 :( Linkage

If thats right whats it supposed to go on?

Hayabusa Fury
Caldari
DarkStar 1
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.10.25 10:34:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg
Originally by: Wicaeed
I am kind of disappointed with the current changes taht are being proposed. I am against the idea of cloaked ships being able to be scanned out, in theory anyways. Cloaked ships should be unscannable. Period. But this is Eve, and the carebears always have to have their say.


Yes, nothing is more carebear than removing the ability to permasafespot with cloaks. Man, covert ops cloaks sure are pretty hardcore - what with being effectively invincible and all?

My heart is pumping already.


Yes, invincibly sitting there doing nothing proactive at all 4tw! How dare they? While were at it, I think we need to add something so I can make afk people undock at my desire. Can't just have them sitting there in their station safespot.

Asharaak
Posted - 2006.10.25 10:43:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Giant Haystacks
If thats right whats it supposed to go on?


Since Covert Ops Frigates get the bonus for using standard probe launchers, the obvious answer (considering the name) would be they are only usable on recon cruisers.

Presumably they will recieve the good old (hidden) cpu reduction bonus in order to fit them.

Giant Haystacks
Ore Mongers
Black Hand.
Posted - 2006.10.25 11:01:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Asharaak
Originally by: Giant Haystacks
If thats right whats it supposed to go on?


Since Covert Ops Frigates get the bonus for using standard probe launchers, the obvious answer (considering the name) would be they are only usable on recon cruisers.

Presumably they will recieve the good old (hidden) cpu reduction bonus in order to fit them.


Covert ops frigs don't get a cpu reduction for standard scan probe launchers, they take 220 cpu on anything.

Syllke Aronstein
Gallente
Le Moulin Rouge
Posted - 2006.10.25 11:39:00 - [14]
 

Stealth Bombers are hardly used because their cloaking ability sucks really badly, and removes their suprise element for all except campers. Adding the ability for people to scan out cloaked ships not only completely removes all abilities from stealth bombers but additionally removes the suprise elements from Recon and Covert ops ships too.

Their main strength comes from people not knowing what is out there, and the fear factor they develop as a result.

I can understand why this has been added, to counter non cloak specific ships cloaking, such as Indys and BS's, but surely some kind of cap drain adjustment based on ship mass or sig radius meaning that enormous ships could only run for 4 or 5 cycles before having to decloak, would be more appropriate, rather than a sweeping sentence over the whole cloaker class.

EvilNate
Caldari
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2006.10.25 11:42:00 - [15]
 

Can we get back on track and talk about the new scanning and probing?

Any new info?

Nate.

CCP Tuxford

Posted - 2006.10.25 12:05:00 - [16]
 

The recon probe launchers are more for hunting ships. The other probes, gravimetric and such named are very accurate but take a lot of time to scan. They are mostly useful for finding celestial anomalies.

PS. I've already sent a mail about getting the two new skills seeded.

CCP Tuxford

Posted - 2006.10.25 12:07:00 - [17]
 

PS. I've already sent a mail about getting the two new skills seeded. I'll take a look at the flight time of snoop probes after lunch, which smells so good. Actually I might just take the afternoon off and rub my tummy.

Wintermoon
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2006.10.25 12:21:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Tuxford
PS. I've already sent a mail about getting the two new skills seeded. I'll take a look at the flight time of snoop probes after lunch, which smells so good. Actually I might just take the afternoon off and rub my tummy.


Get someone else to rub your tummy, frees up valuable time to look at the probes. ;)

CCP Tuxford

Posted - 2006.10.25 12:50:00 - [19]
 

Ok here's the deal with snoop probes. They are really expected to go into the recon probes which has a two minute base scan time. With good skills you can put them into the scan probe launchers but why would you do that. You're better of using one of the bigger probes if you're gonna do that anyway.

Garramon
Gallente
First CityWide Change Bank
Posted - 2006.10.25 13:36:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Tuxford
Ok here's the deal with snoop probes. They are really expected to go into the recon probes which has a two minute base scan time. With good skills you can put them into the scan probe launchers but why would you do that. You're better of using one of the bigger probes if you're gonna do that anyway.


Woot! Now I am even more confused.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2006.10.25 13:43:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Nyphur on 25/10/2006 13:51:04

Is there a reason that the scan deviations were pretty much obliterated? The observator has a 10,000km scan deviation, that means you just launch that, scan, warp to the point and launch 3 3au probes to get a fix on anyone you want. Or am I missing something about the new system?

In fact, with all these scan deviations being so small, they're pretty much pointless. Why is there a deviation at all if it's going to be so small that the difference between probe size classes doesn't actually make a difference to the time it takes you to track down someone? That means the bigger probe is always better.

DaemonBarber
M. Corp
M. PIRE
Posted - 2006.10.25 14:07:00 - [22]
 

Can someone explain why the probes have sensor strengths? Obviously the system has changed, but I'm having trouble figuring out how those fit in (unless scanning is chance based now?).

Can you jam a scan probe...?

Aertuun
Ars ex Discordia
Curse Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.25 14:11:00 - [23]
 

Some points:

1. If the scan strength on the probes determines how far the deviation is from the target ship, that could work.

If it causes probing to "fail" (aka ECM), that would possibly be the worst implementation imaginable. People don't want to wait around for minutes at a time "gambling" on whether a result will turn up or not.

2. Are the "Probes to Analyze" figures current? If so, why are we keeping the old 3 probe system? It was ugly, and no-one used it. The only way to reliably probe was to drop the three probes in a line.

Better to make all probes only require one probe. Anything else just seems like a waste of player time, and makes everything more fiddly.

3. Scan times for ships still seem 100% or more too long. Even with ship and skill bonuses (assuming they are still around in Kali), scanning out a ship using max ship+skill bonuses (-50% and -50%) would take 30 seconds (!). That's not including the time to drop however many probes are needed, PLUS the time to scan again if you're dropped too far from the target.

Cutting it by 50% down to 15 seconds with max skills would work far better, or even less. If probes in PvP are going to have ANY use, the entire probing process from dropped probe > landing on the target should happen in roughly a 1 minute time span.

This is from anywhere in the system. Otherwise, people will just warp around as they do now, and will be just as invincible and unfindable as they are now.

PLEASE PLEASE fix this aspect of PvP.

Damien Smith
The Insane Tormentors
Posted - 2006.10.25 14:46:00 - [24]
 

Yeah, lets make it so every noob and his dog can probe people. Lets give every covert pilot that's spent hours and days of his time perfecting the art of probing a smack in the face.

Probing should be something that takes true player skill to master, not something where you just drop a probe, scan once and warp to the target. That's just stupid.

Scan probing should be very challenging, because that's what seperates truly competent covert from wannabe noobs.

Marsh Mallow
Posted - 2006.10.25 14:57:00 - [25]
 

What's the fitting on the RECON probe launcher?
Can you use it on Cover-ops frigates, or is it for Recons (T2 cruisers)?

Thanks for the info!

Aertuun
Ars ex Discordia
Curse Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.25 15:06:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Damien Smith
Yeah, lets make it so every noob and his dog can probe people. Lets give every covert pilot that's spent hours and days of his time perfecting the art of probing a smack in the face.

Probing should be something that takes true player skill to master, not something where you just drop a probe, scan once and warp to the target. That's just stupid.

Scan probing should be very challenging, because that's what seperates truly competent covert from wannabe noobs.


How do any of the suggestions above have anything to do with making things "easier"?

1. If they change scan probes to use ECM random chance, having probes fail randomly doesn't make things "harder". It just makes things more time consuming and annoying.

2. Using three probes rather than just one is purely cosmetic. Having to drop three probes in a line rather than just one probe on its own isn't "harder", it's just more time consuming.

3. Reducing the time it takes for scan probes to return results doesn't make things "harder". It just moves scan probes into an area where they might actually be usesful for PvP.

The current version of scan probing *is* to just drop three probe and then warp straight to the target. The hard part is getting to a probable range using BMs and the scanner.

Making scan probes useful in PvP has nothing to do with making them "easier" or "harder". It has lots to do with making them useful.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2006.10.25 15:07:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Damien Smith
Yeah, lets make it so every noob and his dog can probe people. Lets give every covert pilot that's spent hours and days of his time perfecting the art of probing a smack in the face.

Probing should be something that takes true player skill to master, not something where you just drop a probe, scan once and warp to the target. That's just stupid.

Scan probing should be very challenging, because that's what seperates truly competent covert from wannabe noobs.

I am also disappointed. They said they would make the probes 3D, that was the perfect solution. Instead they are basically releasing "win probes" where you can just launch them, scan and warp to your target. Instant win with no pilot-skill.

McTaggart
Gallente
Posted - 2006.10.25 15:15:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: McTaggart on 25/10/2006 15:22:14
So basically you have two types of probing; one for finding everything and one for finding ships.

Finding everything happens with the big, slow but very accurate probes (and the non-recon launcher). Mainly used for exploration. Only one probe needed.

Finding ships uses the recon probe launcher, which is faster and uses probes similar to what we have now. Techniques probably similar to now but (hopefully) without this 1-au-or-less-from-the-orbital-plane nonsense.

Am I near the mark?
hmm... test this out on the test server or pass my exams... such a hard damn decision.

The win probes are the 10 minute base ones aren't they? Seems fine, ~150s for a max skill cov ops, 300s non cov ops. The recon probes are like the current system only faster if I'm reading things right.

Skarsnik
Caldari
DarkArch Corp
Posted - 2006.10.25 15:59:00 - [29]
 

This I think is going to change things for the better. If you take into account the smaller gangs offered by the skill tree currently on SiSi this may make for an even further varied group of differently skilled pilots.

I honestly wonder if CCP are doing this and creating Recon Launchers that only fit to Recon ships as a new bebfit over the cyno generation.

Interesting changes that I will be keeping my beady eye on at least.

Verite Rendition
Caldari
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2006.10.25 16:12:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Skarsnik
This I think is going to change things for the better. If you take into account the smaller gangs offered by the skill tree currently on SiSi this may make for an even further varied group of differently skilled pilots.

I honestly wonder if CCP are doing this and creating Recon Launchers that only fit to Recon ships as a new bebfit over the cyno generation.

Interesting changes that I will be keeping my beady eye on at least.
If scanning is moved from Covert frigs to Recon cruisers, and cloaked ships can now be scanned, I'm not quite sure what the purpose of a covert frig is any more.


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