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Audrea
Gallente
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.17 13:52:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Crovan
Originally by: Audrea

And what gives ISS the right to kill LV's enemies in LV space, and still claim to be neutral? Rolling Eyes

EDIT: Its same thing as ISS would say IAC cant dock in our outposts to louch a counter attack against MC.


ZOMG ISS isn't neutral! lollercopters!

Well, someone posted the text of the agreement. At least I that looks like what I remember having as the agreement. Fact is that not even all of ISS is allowed in there. The standard procedure is, unless the person presents an imminent threat, is to inform them that the space is restricted, and ask them to leave. If they refuse, then they could be interpreted as presenting an imminent threat.

As to your edited comment, I don't get it. It's actually nothing at all like that. That conversation was threads ago. Marginis, Tycho, etc. are open to everyone who isn't going to cause trouble for trade or shoot at ISS. Calico is completely closed off, even to some ISS. Is that not allowed? Is a neutral entity not allowed to have an agreement to gain access space under reasonable terms?

The ISS neutrality argument is always such fun.


Ok lets take a hypothetic case:
I am in alliance X, which is in war with LV, but respects the ISS neutrality and what they try to do in eve.

Now I go to tenerifis to shoot any LV; ISS tells me to leave its restricted space, I dont leave, but I dont aggro ISS either.
Now they will (according to that agreement and what you said), fire at me to protect LV. So much for the neutrality.

The issue of how many corps allowed, does not matter! what matters is their actions.

Audrea
Gallente
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.17 13:54:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Kira
Belts are allocated to corps. This list is published on this forum. There will be 1 belt per 10 members (rounded down) in the outpost system. Additional allocations will be made as necessary, however it is likely these will be in systems around C3-0YD. Claim jumping may result in a fine, and for repeated offenses additional action may be take. Each corp is entitled to manage 'their' belts how they wish.


LOL at that belt allocation!! funniest thing I ever saw so far! Laughing

Rei Toai
Amarr
untilted.
Posted - 2006.10.17 13:57:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Crovan

Well, someone posted the text of the agreement. At least I that looks like what I remember having as the agreement. Fact is that not even all of ISS is allowed in there. The standard procedure is, unless the person presents an imminent threat, is to inform them that the space is restricted, and ask them to leave. If they refuse, then they could be interpreted as presenting an imminent threat.



so ISS sees a floating pod as an imminent threat? interesting Rolling Eyes

regarding piracy - if i'm not mistaken Dē has LV on -10 .. this means it's not the common "piracy" where unsuspecting people get shot (as LV has likely Dē also on -10 - only newbs and n00bs think they are safe when something with a red "-" shows up on overview) .. so in fact ISS is enforcing LV's policy and negating it's own (if i remember correct ISS retaliates piracy but not regular conflicts between entities that are known .. though some "adjustments of station services" seem to be inside the ISS charta)

regarding neutrality - well there are two things to mention in this case - first of all ISS HAS TO DO deals with neighbouring entities - it don't see a problem with it in regards to neutrality - but ISS also has to stay OUT OF A CONFLICT between friendly (to ISS) entities. taking side (in the means of combat) WILL cause harm to ISS.

NOObbody
Caldari
The X-Trading Company
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.17 13:58:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Hans Rex



Why are they gate camping in Providence anyway?


Holidays from months of pos wars...Wink

Alex Tremayne
Gallente
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.10.17 14:11:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Rei Toai

so ISS sees a floating pod as an imminent threat? interesting Rolling Eyes



Pods are the ideal tools for scouting out POS and POS defences. Also, whilst not ideal, they are perfectly servicable for making deep safespots. So perhaps not an imminent threat, but a *potentially* serious one nevertheless.

Ceratin
Amarr
Black Lance
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.17 14:12:00 - [126]
 

5 pages long? am i in a bob thread? Surprised

... rabble rabble rabble ...

MacDuncan
Minmatar
Evoke.
Ev0ke
Posted - 2006.10.17 14:14:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Alex Tremayne
Pods are the ideal tools for scouting out POS and POS defences. Also, whilst not ideal, they are perfectly servicable for making deep safespots. So perhaps not an imminent threat, but a *potentially* serious one nevertheless.


ROFLCOTPER...pods are sooooo ebil...beware of the fleet of pod...they might be pod of doom...*gg*

Sorja
Caldari
11th Division
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2006.10.17 14:14:00 - [128]
 

It's funny to read how some want to 'build things' and some others just want to 'pop things'.

When it becomes hilarious is when you have both kinds of pilots in a same alliance, and even in a same corp.

So you have the PvPers trying their best to provoke incidents and the carebears trying their best to nap everything in sight.

Hence the posts from PA, IRON or Razor going from 'as much as we regret it, we have evidence that we can't keep you +10 anymore' to 'die morons, about time!'

I hate to say it, but IMHO there's only one coherent alliance in the game, and it's BoB.

NATMav
Caldari
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2006.10.17 14:16:00 - [129]
 

Edited by: NATMav on 17/10/2006 14:17:13
Just to give ISS a heads up, we have you -10 as well.

The only way to truely stay neutral in this universe is to not shoot anyone or supply one single entity. When you make a deal, such as the one outlined above, you have aligned yourselves against all enemies of LV, while at the same time lining their pockets to feed their war machine against your other "friends".

LTS: Borealis shares

Scrofalitic One
Minmatar
X-Rated
Viewer Discretion Advised
Posted - 2006.10.17 14:19:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Sorja

Hence the posts from PA, IRON or Razor going from 'as much as we regret it, we have evidence that we can't keep you +10 anymore' to 'die morons, about time!'



Ummm, its D2 not PA, and to be honest the only difference between those two statements is the amount of politeness the posters choose to express.

In 0.0 politics as you should well know, not being +ive basically means you're a podding waiting to happen.

So, it would seem that there IS consistency to the posts after all, in content if not in politeness.

Rei Toai
Amarr
untilted.
Posted - 2006.10.17 14:28:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Alex Tremayne
Originally by: Rei Toai

so ISS sees a floating pod as an imminent threat? interesting Rolling Eyes



Pods are the ideal tools for scouting out POS and POS defences. Also, whilst not ideal, they are perfectly servicable for making deep safespots. So perhaps not an imminent threat, but a *potentially* serious one nevertheless.


i doubt that a Dē pod will be a serious threat to any ISS installation (before the incident that is) as Dē has you on blue and no reason to shoot you. it *might* be a threat to LV installations ... but LV and ISS aren't napped in the sense of "we shoot all baddies" - if the deal with LV says so ... well the ISS leadership should have maybe invested a bit more time to consider all possibilities.

having a deal with one entitie is one thing - shooting a friendly entitie because there's a deal with another entitie is another thing.

Martini20
Caldari
RiotDay
Posted - 2006.10.17 14:29:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Martini20 on 17/10/2006 14:31:02
Edited by: Martini20 on 17/10/2006 14:30:09
Hey ISS Guys you have killed 2 of our freinds. They want only dock on your outpost and repair their ships. You say you are neutral to all but this is not neutral. Sure sometime we killed one from you but it was a mistake and we have payed you all your losses by us.

So bee neutral to all or not.


Blacklight
Caldari
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.17 14:36:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Sorja
It's funny to read how some want to 'build things' and some others just want to 'pop things'.

When it becomes hilarious is when you have both kinds of pilots in a same alliance, and even in a same corp.

So you have the PvPers trying their best to provoke incidents and the carebears trying their best to nap everything in sight.

Hence the posts from PA, IRON or Razor going from 'as much as we regret it, we have evidence that we can't keep you +10 anymore' to 'die morons, about time!'

I hate to say it, but IMHO there's only one coherent alliance in the game, and it's BoB.


Now that is getting saved for posterity.

Skeltek
Caldari
Asgard Schiffswerften
Ev0ke
Posted - 2006.10.17 14:42:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Kira Knightly

Security and military


+ ISS will assume responsability of patrolling the northern part of the region. ISS will pursue and suppress pirate incursions into the region. ISS will keep LV central space command informed of all foreign alliance movements in Tenerifis and as such act as border guards and reconnaissance for LV.





So this shows it is not single members trespassing. ISS has cut their own head off making such an agreement.

It is absolutely normal for the greater 0.0 alliances to weaken the enemyīs infrastructure by disturbing and attacking their space.
If you want a piece of the riches of 0.0 space, you have to be able to claim/defend the space and also provide docking possibilities and limited protection for the people who want to participate in your established infrastructure.
It is not normal to be able to enter 0.0 space and harvest itīs riches without any competition or without need of defence. That is a luxury ISS had so far. Their neutrality gives them the possibility to harvest and trade almost everywhere with the major alliances tollerating them and allowing them to grab a part of the riches of someone elseīs 0.0 space.

By agreeing to help defend one 0.0 allianceīs space, they theoreticaly join in the competition of one side. It is not possible to "join" Lotka Voltera alliance and itīs interests and still demand free passage and not being agressed on the other.

kind regards, Skeltek

ps: why isnīt my noobcorp-alt allowed snooping around everywhere?

FireFoxx80
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.10.17 14:48:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Hans Rex
D2 Pirates?

Lets see camping the Esa pipe, popping haulers. Camping the HED pipe, popping haulers. Roaming through Catch, popping haulers. Sounds like pirates to me. I've been podded in a hauler several times by D2.

Now I know as a one man trader corp, I present a major threat to the mighty D2. Why are they gate camping in Providence anyway? Simple pirates running around the South, spouting off.


If we shoot you in our space, it's because we are defending our territory.

If we shoot you in someone else's territory, it's because we are trying to dmaage our enemies.

If we take a pop at you in 0.1-0.4, and we aren't at war. Then yeah, we could be pirating.

Oh, and WTF on ISS neutrality? In this case you chouls have certainly created another alliance with a different set of RoE.

Serapis Aote
Minmatar
TBC
VENOM Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.17 15:06:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Alex Tremayne
Originally by: Rei Toai

so ISS sees a floating pod as an imminent threat? interesting Rolling Eyes



Pods are the ideal tools for scouting out POS and POS defences. Also, whilst not ideal, they are perfectly servicable for making deep safespots. So perhaps not an imminent threat, but a *potentially* serious one nevertheless.

If someone that ISS is +10 to wants to scout out the space of their enemy...then ISS should let them. That is neutrality.

Dingus Rx
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.10.17 15:10:00 - [137]
 

Welcome to the party Burn Eden. If ISS hired you, then they spent their money wisely. EC- area is going to be interesting for awhile. I see from your kill board that your also killing our enemies (RISK and Co.)as well, ty. I will work hard to help counter your one proven tactic, uncloak - drop bubble - warp in Ravens at 200k - Sensor Dampen - hit with Tech II torps.

Dingus Out

Scrofalitic One
Minmatar
X-Rated
Viewer Discretion Advised
Posted - 2006.10.17 15:12:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Serapis Aote

If someone that ISS is +10 to wants to scout out the space of their enemy...then ISS should let them. That is neutrality.



Exactly. In the case in point the ISS chappy should have ignored the passing of the D2 chap, as equally if he had been travelling through (for instance) Deklein and had seen a LV pod floating by he should ignore that.

To be neutral they must not engage in combat, spy on or otherwise compromise ANY activity that the other alliance is up to.

Is that possible? Probably not, and therein lies the problem.

Murukan
Minmatar
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.10.17 15:13:00 - [139]
 

D2 you will find that shooting ISS is quite fun. They have a severe lack of knowledge of what to do in a fight and their haulers usually drop decent loot. What is also fun is that they usually dig themselves into these holes and then whine about how they are nuetral when the shovel appears above them to bury them. Kill them all D2!

Torshin
Gallente
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2006.10.17 15:16:00 - [140]
 

To reply to an earlier post, ISS does camp the Torrinos gate along side members of Northern Alliances. The thing about these camps is the ISS members only engage targets that are KOS and do not engage those who are neutral. While this technically is perfectly legal it looks very poor have ISS sit at gate camps where neutrals or even blues are blown out of the sky.

Skull Digger
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.10.17 15:20:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Mar Drakar
Originally by: Fred0
Originally by: Mar Drakar
why dont you sign a nap for a change... oh thats what you do daily.. er... then go sign a nap ? ... omg again...


Yawn dude. We're on a roadtrip down south. And I see no friggin blues anywhere. Just because we managed to clear out space for ourselves and our allies in one swoop doesn't mean we have more naps than anyone else.

Tell me what significant nap is new around the north from D2/IRON/RAWR/RZR/CDC perspective... We've all been napped for pretty much the whole year. All I hear is corps like yours whining because you can't get into the club because we are not looking at accepting willy nilly. And that makes you bitter and coming here whining about a napclub on forums lol.


well afaik there was an invitation to join the napclub but screw that we said and we didn't.
And who is bitter? not me for sure.
Corps like me? name at least one corp like me who would WANT to join...

and insignificant nap you say? ... can we sign one? we just shoot ya up insignificantly and we can all be in one club Very HappyVery Happy



Goto ZD4 its a nice zyztem. What system you guys in now H-PA?

Tribunal
Minmatar
FIRMA
Posted - 2006.10.17 15:20:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Butter Dog
HOWEVER, and its a big 'however', because of the open nature of ISS, its pretty easy to get alt spies into the alliance. It is the actions of these few individuals on which you are judging the alliance. You are entitled to do this, but it is not ISS you are judging, it is alt spies.

You could argue they should change membership criterea to make it tougher for corps to join, but that would go against what ISS is all about - opening up underused areas of 0.0 like Pure Blind and Providence to new corps who otherwise would not have 0.0 access.



The alt issue IS the main reason people have a problem with ISS. When IAC has set up a gate camp and the same ISS shuttle: enters the gate, warps off, comes right back to the gate at 100km, warps off, comes back to the gate, warps off... over and over it is a problem. There is no other reason for actions like that to be happening unless the ISS in question is passing along intel.

If you think that people doing such acts aren't going to tarnish the neutral stance of an alliance then you are delusional.

P.S. There is a reason that the Northern alliances are down South fighting, it's because the North NAPs way too much. It's the same ******ed, lets NAP everyone, act that certain alliances down South are trying to do. I thought I was moving out of carebear land when I left empire space, now I see the only change is that the NPCs are bigger.

Yodaron Ballsithor
Gallente
Black Avatar
Firmus Ixion
Posted - 2006.10.17 15:38:00 - [143]
 

I have read all the posts defending ISS neutrality and they seem to miss the most important point. I have included the quote below as an example of what is important in this discussion and have highlighted the relevant language.

Originally by: Scrofalitic One
Originally by: Butter Dog
Unfortunately every alliance has the odd tard who ruins it for everyone else, and this is one such person.

...

Hopefully they will kick him from the alliance for being a tard, and I'm sure an apology from their management will be forthcoming in your direction.


Unfortunatly this was not the only incident that occured. There were other actions taken by ISS members that constituted valid reasons for the change to neg standing.

Of course as I am a mere grunt I would not dream of speaking for the alliance, or on behalf of anyone but myself, but maybe a bit of shooty-shooty will make ISS reconsider acting as ASCN scouts in the future...


I have also read in this thread that ISS rent some space from LV and the contract has apparently been posted as well. The contract requires some normal, but interesting provisions that end the inquiry into the neutrality of ISS:

Originally by: Kira Knightly
+ Docking rights: Only ISS corporations who have paid the fees to LV may dock. All LV corporations may dock at any time.

+ Docking rights: Only ISS corporations who have paid the fees to LV may dock. All LV corporations may dock at any time.

+ ISS will assume responsability of patrolling the northern part of the region. ISS will pursue and suppress pirate incursions into the region. ISS will keep LV central space command informed of all foreign alliance movements in Tenerifis and as such act as border guards and reconnaissance for LV.


I think D2 is starting to learn what we learned in FIX when small HF and ASCN gangs were incurring into Q space on a reqular basis. ISS has POS'es in the A2 pipe and ISS members consistently gave ASCN and HF intel on FIX (and presumably BOB) military movements. Those POS'es have been removed and ISS is no longer permitted in Q for obvious reasons.

ROS'ing a D2 member when D2 was either positive or neutral to ISS (in either event, they were not threatening ISS assets and were allowed to dock and use ISS facilities) is not an act of neutrality. Providing intel to enemies is not an act of neutrality. Attempting to spin it in any other fashion is honestly bad form.

I do not pretend to speak to D2 policy, nor shall I try. I can state, however, when faced with an "obvious" lack of neutrality (the supposed hallmark of ISS) I believe it is quite normal to expect the offended party to respond in an appropriate fashion.

ISS tried to bring a wonderful concept to Eve with it's neutrality based infrastructure building in 0.0. Sadly, they have begun to trap themselves into little compartments that erode their position, the LV lease being a prime example. To resolve this problem it would appear that ISS needs to remove from rented space and thereby eliminate the requirements built into it's contract with LV that: (1) it only allow LV approved corps., etc. to dock at an ISS outpost, (2) it's own corporations pay LV a rental fee to dock at an ISS outpost, and (3) it provide intel on any alliance movements in the space it rents to LV. To do otherwise will simply leave ISS in an untenable position regarding it's neutrality.

One final note: I am not sure how ISS justify providing intel to one set of hostiles over another. In other words, if ASCN is hostile to D2, and assuming that ISS is providing intel to ASCN of D2 ship movements, then is ISS "taking sides" in the conflict between the parties, thereby showing "preference" (i.e., non-neutrality) towards one customer over another? Given FIX'es experiences and those of D2, and in light of the LV contract, it would appear that ISS neutrality is nothing but a conveniently spoken concept not practiced by ISS in the world of Eve.

(cont.)

Yodaron Ballsithor
Gallente
Black Avatar
Firmus Ixion
Posted - 2006.10.17 15:38:00 - [144]
 

(cont.)

I truely wish that ISS would reevaluate it's position and strive towards the neutrality that it supposedly aspires to ensure. The development of 0.0 space for players that are not aligned with the major alliances in Eve is a laudable goal, one worth preserving if at all possible.

James Lyrus
Caldari
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.10.17 15:42:00 - [145]
 

Quote:

One final note: I am not sure how ISS justify providing intel to one set of hostiles over another. In other words, if ASCN is hostile to D2, and assuming that ISS is providing intel to ASCN of D2 ship movements, then is ISS "taking sides" in the conflict between the parties, thereby showing "preference" (i.e., non-neutrality) towards one customer over another?



It doesn't. A corp has been kicked from ISS quite recently for doing exactly this.

Yodaron Ballsithor
Gallente
Black Avatar
Firmus Ixion
Posted - 2006.10.17 15:48:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus
Quote:

One final note: I am not sure how ISS justify providing intel to one set of hostiles over another. In other words, if ASCN is hostile to D2, and assuming that ISS is providing intel to ASCN of D2 ship movements, then is ISS "taking sides" in the conflict between the parties, thereby showing "preference" (i.e., non-neutrality) towards one customer over another?



It doesn't. A corp has been kicked from ISS quite recently for doing exactly this.


While this is laudable, you are contractually obligated to provide that information to LV in the rented space. Do you not see the internal conflict with your stated policies?

Lunamariea Hawke
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.10.17 15:50:00 - [147]
 

D2 are very skilled at some things it is a pity that diplomacy is not one of them, it would be nice for once if they tried to solve this through diplomatic channels. Being probably the second most looked to Alliance in the game you would have thought that they would be good at this. Without being a fangirl BOB are very good, more people hate them than D2, however they have respect as they use diplomacy and fighting to solve problems. D2 so far have mostly resorted to treachery whereas if BoB say something thats what they mean.

I do seem to remember 3 weeks ago D2 ganked 2 ISS pilots in x70 for no reason, this caused a local outcry at the time and preceeds all of this.How soon people forget. D2 play the injured party very well but thats normally how they set people up for a stab in the back.

It is nice to see from some postings above that some guys are coming back to the game now that D2 have set ISS to -10, these must be very special pvpers indeed to want such a challenge....

Taralesk Inshani
Gallente
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2006.10.17 15:56:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Hans Rex
D2 Pirates?

Lets see camping the Esa pipe, popping haulers. Camping the HED pipe, popping haulers. Roaming through Catch, popping haulers. Sounds like pirates to me. I've been podded in a hauler several times by D2.

Now I know as a one man trader corp, I present a major threat to the mighty D2. Why are they gate camping in Providence anyway? Simple pirates running around the South, spouting off.


Ok, so I'm an evil pirate, so what?

Are you really complaining about being shot in low sec / 0.0 by us?

NBSI, ever heard of it?

Manas
Gallente
The Graduates
Brutally Clever Empire
Posted - 2006.10.17 15:56:00 - [149]
 


The ISS members and corporations who keep the stations running do so not out of profit (it isn’t really profitable with the shares distributed), but because it opens up interesting gameplay. Running an open outpost and market in 0.0 space is an interesting and difficult challenge. With a large and open alliance like ISS, there will always be loose cannons, but the ISS leadership does a fine job of kicking troublemakers, smoothing ruffled feathers, and making policy adjustments where necessary. Hopefully aggrieved parties will give the ISS leadership a chance to work.

I wish to give thanks to ISS for giving many small corporations and newer players the opportunity to experience 0.0 space without giving up their identity. They are an incubator for many future great 0.0 space corps. Thanks to the ISS diplomats and pilots who are trying to keep places like Cassini/EC-P8R even halfway sane. And thanks for making Eve more interesting by adding some variety in 0.0 space alliances.

Now back to the hating..


Serapis Aote
Minmatar
TBC
VENOM Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.17 15:58:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus
Quote:

One final note: I am not sure how ISS justify providing intel to one set of hostiles over another. In other words, if ASCN is hostile to D2, and assuming that ISS is providing intel to ASCN of D2 ship movements, then is ISS "taking sides" in the conflict between the parties, thereby showing "preference" (i.e., non-neutrality) towards one customer over another?



It doesn't. A corp has been kicked from ISS quite recently for doing exactly this.


ISS passes info about fleet movements in intel channels all the time in catch and providence. Just check the channels and you will see ISS reporting fleet movements of more then just pirates.


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