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bio collector
Posted - 2006.10.11 12:41:00 - [1]
 

There's a problem with too many players using the same systems. If all mission agents were the same quality would it be so bad? We might then get players dispersing equally throughout Empire, instead of grouping together at the homes of the best agents. Add to this the ability to gather loyalty points for a corp. and not just the agent (coming soon™?) and I think our Eve will be a much more enjoyable experience.

Edmund
Caldari
Posted - 2006.10.11 12:45:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Edmund on 11/10/2006 13:12:22
There was other way to do this - make more agent with nice quality or move all lv 3 + agent with quality 0 + to 0,4 - 0,0 where player pirate's corp can do hunt on player doing mission ...

Ikanex
Posted - 2006.10.11 13:19:00 - [3]
 

moving all the high qaulity agents to low sec / 0.0 will not do much. Those current players who are all piling up in the same system as the best quality agents in high sec will continue to do so, only difference is, is that they will be earning slightly less.

The easiest way to fix this is as the op said, remove agent quality in general. Or to triple, maybe even quadruple the number of total agents available across the board.

Okkie2
Posted - 2006.10.11 13:19:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Edmund
Edited by: Edmund on 11/10/2006 13:12:22
There was other way to do this - make more agent with nice quality or move all lv 3 + agent with quality 0 + to 0,4 - 0,0 where player pirate's corp can do hunt on player doing mission ...


Moving lvl4 agents to 0.0 - 0.4 doesn't work because you would restrict lvl4 agents to the alliance which controls that part of the galaxy. For agents you have to dock/undock from a certain station which means if you don't control the area you are way too easy locked down in a station.

Removing quality would work, but also they could just add more high-quality agents in the right systems (not too many in the same system, don't cluster them in a few systems -> so just spread them evenly accross several systems)

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.10.11 13:39:00 - [5]
 

Or just have quality of agent be around -20/-10 for 1.0 systems and around +10/+20 for 0.1 or below systems.
The odd lower quality agent should appear here and there, but there shouldn't be any really high quality agents in hi-sec.


And that, coming from me, an utter carebear and (hisec-based) mission runner.

Guurzak
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.10.11 13:43:00 - [6]
 

That's a great idea- make all agents the same quality. Continuing that line of thought, let's give all ships the same stats, all weapons the same fitting requirements and dps, and all races and bloodlines the same attributes and skills. The game will be perfectly balanced in every way!

Edmund
Caldari
Posted - 2006.10.11 14:00:00 - [7]
 

Like i write before, there was 2 way to remove trafic from systems with high quality agent's :

1- Move all High quality to low sec space, in this case no more CareBears ( like me ) doing mission, only corp / aliance allowed area .. other ppl KOS
2- Make more agent's lv 1,2,3 and 4 with good quality in different SL systems ...

Pls, don't tell me this not work if CCP move high quality agent's to unsecure space, and PvP-er start hunt mission runer don't cut off many player's from good agent.

One day, long ago ( 2 + year ), one corp, pirate corp, first high - end pirate corp in EVE ( they start attack ppl in 1 week EVE relase Twisted Evil ) go to SL 0,9 and kill whole gunpods, all palyer owned ship on gate jumping in/out and all Concord/Military force. GM teleport this ppl to different systems in 0,0 loooong way from this high SL system ... but no one can enter this system and no one leave when they claim them.

Samhein
Posted - 2006.10.11 14:10:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Samhein on 11/10/2006 14:11:10
Bad solution. There are already too few incentives for moving to low sec, removing agent quality would just be taking away one more. Duplicating agents may be a solution I guess. What is the main problem with the current system (I don't high sec mission run)? Lag? I don't see any inherent value in dispersing players otherwise.

Also, comparing the actions of m0o to the current state of the game is silly. I've run in low sec for a while, and got ganking once in my mission system, which was entirely due to my own stupidity. Moving more agents out to low sec would actually make this less common also, since A) mission running hubs can form their own defenses and B) the players in low sec would be more spread out.

Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2006.10.11 14:35:00 - [9]
 

The silly thing about the quality system is there's no inherent battle for resources involved. Whether one person or 50 is running an agent, the rewards are the same. And in fact, there is usually a positive side-factor to running in the same area as numerous other players: a better market overall.

So naturally people clump in with the highest quality agents in the lowest security systems they can handle. There's no reason not to until the lag gets too bad.

Tran Duma
Posted - 2006.10.11 14:51:00 - [10]
 


I think it`s more a caldari and a gallante problem then a agent problem. There are just to much Caldari and Gallante dudes ,in eve.

In amarr space where the best agents are there are only max 20 to 30 in local .Same as in Minmater space .

In Caldari space in local 150 same as in gallante space ,or can`t you leave your own space ?Is it a new bug?Or do you guys get home sick?

Winknullquote=bio collector]There's a problem with too many players using the same systems. If all mission agents were the same quality would it be so bad? We might then get players dispersing equally throughout Empire, instead of grouping together at the homes of the best agents. Add to this the ability to gather loyalty points for a corp. and not just the agent (coming soon™?) and I think our Eve will be a much more enjoyable experience.[/quot[

Emily Spankratchet
Minmatar
Pragmatics
Posted - 2006.10.11 15:08:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Guurzak
That's a great idea- make all agents the same quality. Continuing that line of thought, let's give all ships the same stats, all weapons the same fitting requirements and dps, and all races and bloodlines the same attributes and skills. The game will be perfectly balanced in every way!


There's always a reason for using different ships, weapons or skills. I really can't see the point, however, in the existence of a QL -20 agent sitting in a choke-point 0.4 system somewhere horrible. Why would anyone ever want to use that agent?

Whilst I agree that abolishing QL is a bit drastic there is simply no reason to use most of the low quality agents, even if you are trying to get as good an agent as possible as you work your way up the standing ladder. Having said all that, having the standing ladder is a good thing - I like the idea of working your way up in a corporation's esteem.

It would be really interesting to see, if such a thing were possible, the stats of how many agents are used regularly and how many have only seen one customer in the last year.

Okkie2
Posted - 2006.10.11 15:42:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Or just have quality of agent be around -20/-10 for 1.0 systems and around +10/+20 for 0.1 or below systems.
The odd lower quality agent should appear here and there, but there shouldn't be any really high quality agents in hi-sec.

And that, coming from me, an utter carebear and (hisec-based) mission runner.


Doesn't work because all mission runners will go to the best agent in highsec, even if it's of very low quality.

Furthermore there allready is a lot of difference in rewards between highsec and lowsec (agent in 0.0 will gain you more than double the LP's and rewards if compared to a high sec agent of the same quality)

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.10.11 15:52:00 - [13]
 

Okkie, you kind of just answered your own raised issues.
If quality of agents in highsec is lousy (think mostly -20s and the odd positive quality one in 0.5), and only starts improving in lowsec significantly, while at the same time you get significant boosts to agent rewards in lowsec even at same quality, WHY WOULDN'T more people start moving, slowly, to lower security areas ?

By the way, you do realise that most 0.5 agents will send you into lowsec a lot of times, and especially for the more profitable missions ?
While at the same time a lower quality agent and minimal skills will send you many jumps away to complete the mission (sometimes, shock, even into lowsec), whereas a decent quality agent will almost never send you more than one jump away ?

Combine all of that together, and you'll have a "lowsec agent running" scenario so profitable in comparison to the hisec ones, that sooner than later people will start moving too.

Galk
Gallente
Autumn Tactics
All the things she said
Posted - 2006.10.11 18:56:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Akita T
at the same time you get significant boosts to agent rewards in lowsec even at same quality, WHY WOULDN'T more people start moving, slowly, to lower security areas ?


Combine all of that together, and you'll have a "lowsec agent running" scenario so profitable in comparison to the hisec ones, that sooner than later people will start moving too.



Untrue.. ill tell you why.

The rewards and carrots for running in lowsec arn't balanced at all.... as iv'e pointed out before.. ccp have blatantly devalued the lp rewards.. by flooding certain offers.

That is the main reward of running low sec... loyality points.. i can make just as much isk running in a high sec 0.9 system from bounty/ agent rewards and bonuses.. using my ubber shiny mission setup toys that i wouldn't dare to use in low sec knowing how easy they are to gank.... which is about to be made even worse with the new scanning system.... screw thatVery Happy

Don't get me wrong i do not fear pvp or loss.. but like just being ganked by people in pvp sets while in mission mode over and over just blows.... not so bad in a basic mission fitted ship for me with billions in my pocket... but not a chance in hell ill risk it with a 3-4 billion isk fitted raven....

They (said ebil pirates) just scan your mission with a sh*tty alt, figure out your damage types and resists... then ofc your numbers up when you decide to jump the gate on your way home... 3 or 4 flashing reds will seal your fate no worries:/

Ohh and btw... agents... reguardless of quailty.. location will send you 1-2 jumps over on random pattern.. low or high sec... a little misleading that....


Okkie2
Posted - 2006.10.11 19:14:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Okkie, you kind of just answered your own raised issues.
If quality of agents in highsec is lousy (think mostly -20s and the odd positive quality one in 0.5), and only starts improving in lowsec significantly, while at the same time you get significant boosts to agent rewards in lowsec even at same quality, WHY WOULDN'T more people start moving, slowly, to lower security areas ?


Why would they ? Either they can't do the high profit missions in lowsec because their station is camped by pirats or they can run missions whith less profit in safe space.
Quote:

By the way, you do realise that most 0.5 agents will send you into lowsec a lot of times, and especially for the more profitable missions ?


And those missions are declined by most because these are the lowsec systems which are usually camped and so too risky and thus not profitable.

Like i said before, if you're not in an alliance you just can't run missions. A lot of people log in for one or two hours and have time to run a single mission. If at that time the station is camped by pirates they can't play so they will move pretty quickly back to high-sec space.

bio collector
Posted - 2006.10.11 19:59:00 - [16]
 

Some people will just not go to low sec, no matter what you offer them for the risks, I used to be one of them! Whatever their reason is, it's their game and their choice and I would never remove that from them. Agent quality is the main reason why so many people group in so few systems, remove it and people will spread out.
Of course, some people realise you don't have to work for the navy to get the combat missions and they are the ones in the quieter systems enjoying rather less lag. A boost to NPC corp.'s divisions would help here. I see no reason why a transportation corp. cannot have some form of security division.

Tammarr
Posted - 2006.10.11 20:07:00 - [17]
 

Just spitting some juice on the carpet:

In order to keep evolving eve in the fascinating dynamic way...

How about agents that are run frequently, slowly drop quality. Meanwhile ofc increasing agents not getting any action. The high q agents simply run out of funds to spend on freelancers and ofc they run out of high paid jobs also :)

Err, yeah, it was just an idea :)



Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2006.10.11 20:21:00 - [18]
 

As Tsanse and Tammarr both suggest, the best solution (I think) is to have less-used agents raise their quality/rewards to encourage people to spread out their agent running.

As it is now, there are some agents (I've bumped into some looking through corp lists) that are just silly. A lvl 1, -10 agent in 0.4 space? Really? Yeah I'm totally gonna go do those missions, I'll get right on that.

Put a real market behind the agents and the problem solves itself.

Samhein
Posted - 2006.10.11 20:55:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Galk
Originally by: Akita T
at the same time you get significant boosts to agent rewards in lowsec even at same quality, WHY WOULDN'T more people start moving, slowly, to lower security areas ?


Combine all of that together, and you'll have a "lowsec agent running" scenario so profitable in comparison to the hisec ones, that sooner than later people will start moving too.



Untrue.. ill tell you why.

The rewards and carrots for running in lowsec arn't balanced at all.... as iv'e pointed out before.. ccp have blatantly devalued the lp rewards.. by flooding certain offers.

That is the main reward of running low sec... loyality points.. i can make just as much isk running in a high sec 0.9 system from bounty/ agent rewards and bonuses.. using my ubber shiny mission setup toys that i wouldn't dare to use in low sec knowing how easy they are to gank.... which is about to be made even worse with the new scanning system.... screw thatVery Happy

Don't get me wrong i do not fear pvp or loss.. but like just being ganked by people in pvp sets while in mission mode over and over just blows.... not so bad in a basic mission fitted ship for me with billions in my pocket... but not a chance in hell ill risk it with a 3-4 billion isk fitted raven....

They (said ebil pirates) just scan your mission with a sh*tty alt, figure out your damage types and resists... then ofc your numbers up when you decide to jump the gate on your way home... 3 or 4 flashing reds will seal your fate no worries:/

Ohh and btw... agents... reguardless of quailty.. location will send you 1-2 jumps over on random pattern.. low or high sec... a little misleading that....




Ummm, I have no idea where you are running low sec missions, but I hesitate to call your scenario the norm.

First, low sec agents give more money in addition to LP.

Second, I would hardly say using a 4 billion ISK Raven is the common case for mission runners, and even then people can and do run them in low sec successfully. Scanning people out in any sort of hub is hard. And if you lazily scan for probes every minute or two, you won't get caught even if they are gunning for you. Low sec gate camps are fairly easy to spot, and station camps in my neck of the woods are rare.

Finally, many of the low sec mission hubs will allow you to just agent cycle through a few agents if one of them gives you an offer that is out of system. In fact, cycling is ideal for a casual player since it allows them to get several agents to the 15k LP sweet spot.

Calio
Caldari
Posted - 2006.10.11 21:38:00 - [20]
 

I agree with the OP about the problem and I sympathize with his attempt to come up with a solution. However, a much simpler solution would simply be to seed a few more decent quality lev 4 agents in empire.

Does EVE really need two dozen decent lev 1 agents and only 3 or 4 decent lev 4 agents? Levl 1 agents are only used for a short time by players as they move up. Lev 4 agents are used permanently once players are able to use lev 4 missions, and so each day more and more players are using the same few agents.

CCP should change a few of the lev 1 and lev 2 agents to lev 4 agents. Simple as that.

Samhein
Posted - 2006.10.11 21:57:00 - [21]
 

There are at least 42 combat agents with Level 4 Q20 in greater than 0.0 space. There are just 0 in high sec. I don't see that as a problem. I wouldn't care if they took a few existing high(er) quality empire agents and split them off into other systems in the same constellation however. That would spread it amongst a few systems in a constellation while retaining most of the existing system. That would allow less lag without impacting everything else.

Galk
Gallente
Autumn Tactics
All the things she said
Posted - 2006.10.11 23:30:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Galk on 11/10/2006 23:33:44
Originally by: Samhein


First, low sec agents give more money in addition to LP.

Low sec gate camps are fairly easy to spot, and station camps in my neck of the woods are rare.




I did an example of both high and low sec running last week on the boardhere

Isk value however you call it isn't all that different, aside worlds collide and say 2 million extra per mission on the top ends.... being the only difference...

Main gripe for me is the gate camps... scanning deadspace is easy to counter aside missions such as vengence, the serp extra... ect... the ones where you basicaly jump on the next gate and you don't realy want to be alligned to a celestial taking you 30-40km away.. time you have cleared it..... time you mess around doing things such as... you would make more running in high sec reguardless:/

Easy to spot.... belive me... you do it correctly, zero risk.... the time and choosing is your own if youre wanting to get the gank on...

You know the guy (say me) is running a hot setup... you simpley wait to there's little threat to counter you at that time of day (low sec mission hubs are fairly predictable.. you know who won't be fighting you... who would/could.. what time people log ect).. as i said before.... any old alt... never see the same guy twice in ajoining systems....

Your done... per my example (btw the last time i got ganked... this did happen... you don't think.. 3 guys in t2 and faction battleships realy wait at a gate unless they know it's a win winRolling Eyes) ofc there's a counter.. you could simpley ditch your mission ships in a local station and head back in shuttles to complete... again... thats time.... time being money... screw that ect...

Belive me... i know how easy it is... iv'e kept the company of the best guys in eve at f***** people over.... the guys that dedicate to ruining your day will do exactly that unless you constantly play against them....

Basicaly... i can't be botherd with it.. high sec for me until low sec gives me a carrot to be there... currently.. there isn't a single reason for it aside higher lp to compensate the hassleWink

Excuse poor english and grammar, post pub postingSurprised

Zosimos Sabina
Tritanium Workers Union
Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.12 01:21:00 - [23]
 

Honestly.. having level 4s in high sec is like having crokite and bistot spawning in Jita. It makes no sense, lol.

That being said, the solo player can't make enough money in low-sec to make it worth venturing out there.

Low sec rewards in ratting, mining, and missioning need buffing across the board, and high sec level 4 missions need to get the boot.


Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2006.10.12 02:43:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Frug
As Tsanse and Tammarr both suggest, the best solution (I think) is to have less-used agents raise their quality/rewards to encourage people to spread out their agent running.

As it is now, there are some agents (I've bumped into some looking through corp lists) that are just silly. A lvl 1, -10 agent in 0.4 space? Really? Yeah I'm totally gonna go do those missions, I'll get right on that.

Put a real market behind the agents and the problem solves itself.


There's several interesting possibilities. I've thought about it a lot, but unfortunately I have no idea what's actually feasible.

One idea is that the agents base quality would become a floating figure rather than a set one, and be based on the number of people who run the agent--probably the number of successfully completed missions given out by that agent over a certain previous period of days compared against a curve of those of all agents of that level. This could have a number of interesting effects I think, especially on the migration of players over time and the use of some corporations and areas of space that are currently unpopular.





Estelle Matsuko
Caldari
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.10.12 11:48:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Estelle Matsuko on 12/10/2006 11:49:36
Why not

a)make all agents the same quality in empire ie Q15
b)make all agents in low sec the same quality ie q18
c make all agents the same quality in 0.0 ie q20
d)make the quality of the agent dynamic

For every X number of missions that agent hands out, decrease its quality by a set amount,then reset it after DT.

ie after every 500 missions handed out, the agents quality drops by 1 to a maximum floor of -20.

All values are purely for example.

This

a) gives people a real incentive to chase the agents in lowsec and 0.0 if they are serious agent runners

b) forces people to move away from thier current locations as the agent quality in certain popular systems will drop dramatically as the day wears on, whilst the quality of agents in less popular systems will drop far more slowly.




Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2006.10.12 16:51:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 12/10/2006 16:54:55
Originally by: Estelle Matsuko
Edited by: Estelle Matsuko on 12/10/2006 11:49:36
Why not

a)make all agents the same quality in empire ie Q15
b)make all agents in low sec the same quality ie q18
c make all agents the same quality in 0.0 ie q20
d)make the quality of the agent dynamic

For every X number of missions that agent hands out, decrease its quality by a set amount,then reset it after DT.

ie after every 500 missions handed out, the agents quality drops by 1 to a maximum floor of -20.

All values are purely for example.

This

a) gives people a real incentive to chase the agents in lowsec and 0.0 if they are serious agent runners

b) forces people to move away from thier current locations as the agent quality in certain popular systems will drop dramatically as the day wears on, whilst the quality of agents in less popular systems will drop far more slowly.






The problem with basing the quality on the number of missions given out since the last downtime is it's a huge advantage for people in certain time zones. I think the fairest, most manipulation proof method would use numbers over a longer period of time, and previous to the last downtime. Also I believe the quality should be based on a curve, so that there would always be really good agents and really bad ones available, regardless of the raw number of mission runners.

That's not the most cut-throat competitive system, but it does help to make sure that individual mission runners are rewarded based on the amount of work they put into it, while making agent choice more dynamic and interesting.

Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2006.10.13 01:11:00 - [27]
 

I still think it's an incredibly good idea to have agent quality/rewards be dynamic rather than set. I also have to agree that resetting that after every DT would be too much swing during a day and benefit people based on when they get online. The agent's rewards should adjust based on long term use, averaged over a few days at least.

I'm not sure why someone in here claims lower sec agents give better rewards. I suppose that may be true, but that has not been my experience.

Miss Overlord
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.10.13 11:42:00 - [28]
 

another suggestion was agents in heavily used systems would make their mission runners travel further to missions where as those in quiter used spots (even in empire) would require less distance.

CCP half implemented this and half didnt

Sosus Red
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.10.13 13:24:00 - [29]
 

I really cant understand why people dont use agent lin low space. I have been using agents in low space ever since I could use 3's and 4's. I have a 3 in a .1 system then a four in a .1 right next door. Its not like im in constant fear of getting podded either. If your smart then you shouldnt have a problem. Make instas, make safespots, make insta undocks. There is rarely more than 5 people in system, ussually less, ANd you get to know who the regulars are so if there is some stranger who is a bit dodgy then you know to be careful.

There is no reason to stay in high sec....unless your a cowardLaughing

Sammiel
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.10.13 14:08:00 - [30]
 

Because they either;

A) Got ganked while either new or careless in low sec

B) Have a friend who did the above and continously talked about how dangerous low sec was.

or C) Have a faction fitted ship they are wedded to.

Personally I think they should rebalance implants and deadspace/faction modules to make a raven gistii/crystal tank less imbalanced. That would reduce the impact of C, though A and B are entirely psychological, so I don't know what could be done about them.


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