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Qall Rungbar
Neuro Cartographic Services
Posted - 2006.10.02 11:17:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Brucette
Originally by: Varitus

Second, I think its completly counter productive to have the entire industrial line of ships be practicaly naked and defenseless. There is no reason why a decent engeneer couldnt make a hull design for an industrial that sport 3 or better wepons. Keep them slow, but give them the ability to return fire.



I suspect the intent is to avoid creating an UBERWTFPWNAFKMININGBEAST


Or to make people work with others to have security escorts when carrying lots of expensive stuff.Rolling Eyes

Asboh
Gallente
Kal'Torno Holdings
Posted - 2006.10.02 14:52:00 - [122]
 

Caveat- I may be a 9-month old character, but I'm pretty much at noob level on most aspects of Eve because I don't manage to play an awful lot.

Looking at the economics of it:

If I can make X ISK per hour in high-sec, and Y in low-sec, then Y-X must be not only just enough to tempt me, but a fair chunk more than I will lose to piracy *or* pay out in protection.

Unless the number of non-pirates is much. much greater than pirates - low-sec has to be significantly more profitable than high-sec.

Problem is then, if you can lock-down the system you farm the difference at next to no risk - presumably why CCP don't want to just throw ISK at low-sec to improve the number of non-pirate players. Moving level 4 agents into low-sec won't help unless they still pay out enough to cover the additional costs of low-sec.

What might help is the 'big win'- if (for example) mining was altered so that there was a low-probability of your mining lasers/drones picking up some valuable 'pure' minerals (or a chunk of some 0.0 ore) So 9 times in 10 your run is just a little more profitable than the equivalent high-sec session. but now and again you turn up the big win that makes losing those ships, or being ransomed worthwhile. (Both in terms of playing the game and in terms of cash)

The additional ISK value need not be a massive increase over the normal rate you'd get. Say, 10-15% of the value of 10 runs for a 1/10 chance per full jet-cans. Then stick in something worth 100% at say 1/100 per jet-can of ore. Do the same with loot from agent missions/complexes. Although the reward is relatively low, the buzz from getting it will be more appealing. Everyone so often goes for what *looks* like the easy money.

Then the 'gamble' of dieing under the guns of a pirate is balanced by the 'gamble' of that semi-mythical 'big-score' out there in the dangerous low-security systems.

Ogodei Ra
Posted - 2006.10.02 15:14:00 - [123]
 

From the OP first post, is the reason low sec sucks ...

"Low security space is the proverbial ghost town of the Eve world at the moment, in this past week, your meager protagonist and his friends have been out hunting every night without fail, and what we have seen has dismayed us."

So your entire gang of pvpers goes out every night without fail ganking everyone you possibly can ?

Maybe you should start solo pirating ? Give the other person a chance ?

What possible reason could you ever give a carebear that would make them go out and play your victim ? They would probably need at least twice your numbers with pvp fittings to even have half a chance at fighting you, plus whatever industrial type ships the need to get the "incentives". So what, maybe 20 ships to survive your "pirate" gang ?

Put all the incentives you want in low sec, it wont work. Its not about the incentives. Its about the time spent and the humility and the frustration when you get podded.

I like solo pvp, but ive given up on Eve pvp because its always a gangbang. Enter low sec with less than 4 stabs and you die. So why exactly would I want to go in low sec ? Now I login once or twice a month when I get the urge to fly a spaceship and blow things up in a safe mission. I can get fun PvP in Planetside.


Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2006.10.02 16:17:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Asboh

Problem is then, if you can lock-down the system you farm the difference at next to no risk - presumably why CCP don't want to just throw ISK at low-sec to improve the number of non-pirate players.



That's the 0.0 equation, and I think it's not a horrible one. If people can do what it takes to "lock down the system", they deserve to milk some awesome rewards from it.

And as their wealth goes up, there's an increasing chance that other entities will try to swoop in and take some or all of it away. YARRRR!! That's EVE.

Asboh
Gallente
Kal'Torno Holdings
Posted - 2006.10.02 16:22:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Originally by: Asboh

Problem is then, if you can lock-down the system you farm the difference at next to no risk - presumably why CCP don't want to just throw ISK at low-sec to improve the number of non-pirate players.



That's the 0.0 equation, and I think it's not a horrible one. If people can do what it takes to "lock down the system", they deserve to milk some awesome rewards from it.

And as their wealth goes up, there's an increasing chance that other entities will try to swoop in and take some or all of it away. YARRRR!! That's EVE.


Fair point, but you it does mean it's not achieving the aim of pulling players in from high-sec to come and play with the pirates.

Saerid
FinFleet
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.02 16:28:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Jaxxar

I would just like to add a comment about the moving ice to low sec thing. no alliance is gonna send solo miners from 0.0 to strip some ice to fuell their pos' and cyno fields, etc, if it did happen there would be fleets heading from 0.0 to low sec to get the stuff then things would get exciting


Actually no. The ice would then be mined in 0.0 , don't forget the ice types available in there have higher yields and it would avoid the trouble of mass logistics (read, freighter hauls into deep space). Not to mention you'd have your fleets already on location and the ability to seal off systems with bubbles.

Lot of the insecurity of low sec space comes down to the "hang together or hang separately" equation, any corporation or small alliance capable of organizing effective defense could just as well head out to Curse/Venal/Syndicate/wherever to try it out in 0.0 and probably reap higher rewards for it. The game rewards organization more than most. Supply convoys.. corporations organizing proper scouting, rapid response ships in PvP fits, etc.

- More BC/HAC spawns in low sec wouldn't hurt. Especially 0.1-0.2. Let the folks have the 300k ones at least.
- The ore issue is a sensitive one. By and large the availability and price difference is what sustains 0.0 economies, bulk mining being much easier than bulk NPCing. You can have 30 miners strip mining Bistot in a belt but not NPCing.
- Weigh mission rewards more towards low sec. Maybe increase NPC size in low sec missions a little compared to their high sec variety. Give lvl 4 agents in high sec space a proper and thorough nerfbat beating, right now the risk-reward imbalance is still pretty big relative to most low-sec activities.


Swindy
BlackOps Brigade
Posted - 2006.10.02 16:42:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: infraX
The problem is too many people want to play solo - but this isn't a solo game.


It can be a solo game if you want it to be. If you want to mine or build things in relative peace and quiet then stay in the newbie corp and just go about your business in high-sec.

Sure, the high value minerals aren't there, but neither is any of the stress from war decs, pirates, or nbsi alliances. Just learn to work the market. This is one of the reasons that Empire is more populated than low-sec.

Living effectively in low-sec takes much more effort than Empire, and there's clearly a lot of casual players that just aren't willing to make the effort.

I've read some suggestions about punishing high-sec and boosting low-sec. IMHO all that will do is cause people to quit. It doesn't address the real reasons why people are staying safe and happy in Empire. Part of it is risk-vs-reward, and part of it is just pure risk.

Bin SniFfin
Posted - 2006.10.02 16:42:00 - [128]
 

Ive been doing a lot of sniffin lately. And i found out that Low sec space around Area's that used to be very popular in the past, are now only occupied by Pirates.

There still is plenty of more ISK to make in low sec, but it requires more and more of a PVP section in your Mining/Npc corp. The risk of getting ganked at gates, or anything with Sentries seems to get bigger and bigger.

I want more people in low sec. Other then pirates. Where's those Anti-Pirate corps?

Ellandrian D'Amerathe
Posted - 2006.10.02 17:18:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Bin SniFfin
Ive been doing a lot of sniffin lately. And i found out that Low sec space around Area's that used to be very popular in the past, are now only occupied by Pirates.

There still is plenty of more ISK to make in low sec, but it requires more and more of a PVP section in your Mining/Npc corp. The risk of getting ganked at gates, or anything with Sentries seems to get bigger and bigger.

I want more people in low sec. Other then pirates. Where's those Anti-Pirate corps?


Anti-Pirate really just does not work, the game mechanics do not support it or bounty hunting (which is related) as professions. I'd wager that far more pirates, in fact a vast majority, are killed by other pirates than by pirate hunters and doing alot of piraty things lately myself I know that good pirates, those who dont dock and smack, are very hard to catch and kill.

Starting a migration to low sec will require both lowering risk and increasing reward for those who are willing to take the remaining risk.

My opinion on this, even though it is cutting my own throat a little (I'm mainly a fan of frigate belt piracy though), is to make low sec gates and stations safe. Buff sentry range and damage sufficiently to make sentry tanking and sniping impossible. This would serve to make low security space a true halfway point between high sec empire and 0.0, pushing gate camps out to 0.0 and low sec piracy in to the belts and complexes. Reasonably safe to travel through, you know you will not get ganked as you undock but dangerous to dwell in.

Once the above is accomplished, people still need a reason to stay, in any MMO that reason is always going to involve gain, in Eve it means ISK. Buff up the rewards for both miners and belt ratters (mission runners make plenty already).

Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2006.10.02 17:43:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Asboh
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Originally by: Asboh

Problem is then, if you can lock-down the system you farm the difference at next to no risk - presumably why CCP don't want to just throw ISK at low-sec to improve the number of non-pirate players.



That's the 0.0 equation, and I think it's not a horrible one. If people can do what it takes to "lock down the system", they deserve to milk some awesome rewards from it.

And as their wealth goes up, there's an increasing chance that other entities will try to swoop in and take some or all of it away. YARRRR!! That's EVE.


Fair point, but you it does mean it's not achieving the aim of pulling players in from high-sec to come and play with the pirates.


As it currently stands, I agree. Which is why I think that boosting LowSec rewards, tweaking the security and kill rights system so that policing systems is possible, and making LowSec gatecamping somewhat more difficult are all important.

Kayleigh Xaos
Trader's Academy
Daikoku Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2006.10.02 17:49:00 - [131]
 

The dynamic economy of Eve goes well past the marketplace. Low-sec demonstrates this well. Overabundance of pirates, and therefore risk, keeps people out of low-sec. As has been brought up, it's a lot easier just to make the jump from high-sec to 0.0 space than to drift through low-sec to get a feel for PvP because of this overpopulation.

I'm a big fan of just letting the economy adjust itself with as little modification by the system as possible. In terms of low-sec a pirate's worst problem seems to be scarcity of prey. They have had to resort to all measures including ganking other pirates in order to survive. When all of the deer are gone the wolves start to feed on each other. How can this adjust?

Well, forcing high-secers into low-sec simply isn't going to work. Nobody is going to jump into a den of wolves, no matter how good the foliage looks. This goes double if they happen to know the wolves are starving. Move high quality agents into low-sec and most will stay in high. Move all l4 agents into low-sec and you'll get the same.

So where else could pirates possibly go to do what it is they do? 0.0. I think CCP kind of expects this and the adjustment simply hasn't happened. Granted, the massive gate camps on the border zones keep people from getting across, perhaps to prevent exactly this from happening. I haven't asked any of the folks who camp said gates why they do it so I'm not sure of the reason. But all said I think the natural spread of a player from high-sec to low-sec to 0.0 has been stunted because low-sec has become stagnant.

And let's face it...given the unwillingness of a pirate to go into 0.0 space I don't see why it is so tough for some to understand why lots of folks stay in high-sec. In fact I think it is exactly the same reason.

The only system change I could think would fix this would be to alter the mechanics of gate camps to get rid of them. As it stands right now people can't freely flow between the three types of areas (high, low, and 0.0) because of them, and that seems to be the crux of the problem.

As with any forced system change, of course, this would bring in some issues. After all, I imagine this would make it much harder for the big 0.0 alliances to keep their territory. Once again my not being too savvy on 0.0 mechanics means I'm just guessing on that one.

Devian 666
Transmetropolitan
Posted - 2006.10.02 21:24:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Devian 666 on 02/10/2006 21:29:44
In reply to the gate camps issue. The reason for 0.0 gate camps is for two purposes.

On one hand it gives various pirate types an easy gank point for revenue, and on the other hand alliance run gate camps are to cut off supplies getting out into 0.0 and expensive loot getting back to empire to be sold.

Given that most of the gates to 0.0 are over such a long distance shouldn't there be a fall off in accuracy over distance. Clearly space itself is a chaotic place and the point where people fall out of the gate shouldn't be as accurate as it is.

Hmmm, your 30 man gate camp has just had a small fleet jump in at 300 km. Then two minutes later another small fleet lands 50 km away. Gates into 0.0 are no longer a choke point and large gate camps are put at risk rather than being safe at the gate. Though it would kill the tactic of jumping a ship in to aggro and then try to jump them with a large fleet, as the fleet could end up 300km away.

Edited bit here.

This would also make gate camps work for their kills as they'd have to race to their targets potentially splitting up their fleet.

An unfortunate side effect is that running a solo cruiser gate camp gets a lot harder.

Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2006.10.03 01:26:00 - [133]
 

this thread screams out one thing, even if the OP didnt intend it do.

Nerf
Hi
Sec


at the moment most low-sec is about as busy as 0.0. imo this is wrong

LittleTerror
Day Unhappy Security Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.03 01:40:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
this thread screams out one thing, even if the OP didnt intend it do.

Nerf
Hi
Sec


at the moment most low-sec is about as busy as 0.0. imo this is wrong


They just need to boost lowsec, if they try to force those people into lowsec, I fear they will leave the game, so instead we need lots of lovely treats in lowsec so people will at least be more interested.

Maximillian Pele
Caldari
Keel Hauler's Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.03 03:27:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
this thread screams out one thing, even if the OP didnt intend it do.

Nerf
Hi
Sec


at the moment most low-sec is about as busy as 0.0. imo this is wrong


Nope - remember the adage "don't fly what you can't afford to loose"? - well where exactly are people starting in Hi Sec supposed to get the ISK to buy all the nice ships and modules that the low sec pirates want to gank them for if hi sec keeps getting nerfed?

The problem with EvE is that you have many different types of players - from the many-hours-a-day hardcore to the few-hours-a-week-at-most casual players.

So CCP has a problem - increase the rewards available to the casual players and those with the time to play intensively will reap massive rewards. But reduce the rewards so as to restrict the hardcore players and you condemn the casuals to poverty.

Even if it is possible to earn 10 million an hour in high sec, that faction battleship with faction modules will still take 100+ hours of game time to afford.

Many players who have already made it are quite prepared to see changes made to EvE that would drive away other players. As one alliance vet told me EvE's problem was too many people logging in each day causing lag and that the number should be reduced by 5-10 thousand "Empire types", and then they could have their fleet battles.

Yet from CCP's POV the casual player is probably worth more in $$$ profit terms than the hardcore player as the casual player uses far less server resources and is less demanding for content.

So what is needed is balance. But CCP's task here is complicated by the role players themselves play in setting the "risk" levels in risk vs. reward. Hence Alliances controlling huge chucks of 0.0 have changed the 0.0 risk factor. And the number of skilled PvPers and Pirates in low sec have altered the risk factor there as well.

Complusion will not work, players cannot be forced down particular paths in EvE and in fact doing so would rob EvE of much of the freedom of choice & consequence that makes it better than so many of the "you are a X, hence you role will always be y" style of class/level based MMOs.

What CCP really needs to be able to do is monitor and rebalance the game far more regularly than via the occassional patch. If CCP knew how many missions were being run, how many rat bounties were being collected, how much ore was being mined, and most importantly WHERE, then they could slowly boost or nerf the rewards and gradually coax players to change how and where they play.

Balance is the art of giving something to everyone while making sure no one gets everything they want. Achieving balance is another thing.

Dynast
Osirians Of Eve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.03 04:54:00 - [136]
 

As other posters have noted, there's just too much wrong with low sec space to make it worth using compared to living in 0.0 space, with an alliance or otherwise. I started out missioning in empire, but once I tired of that it didn't take long at all to figure out that low sec was for the birds, and 0.0 was where the real action was.

The low sec rules are effectively stacked against players who aren't actively on the offensive, by penalizing them for shooting first. They have to either run, eat the sec hit, or allow hostiles to engage on their terms. Sentry guns exacerbate this without really preventing sniping or gate camping.

The low sec pirates... I dunno. I can't help but feel that a lot of 'em are essentially bush leaguers who want action without the risk they'd face in 0.0 space. Any halfway serious PvPer in a PvP fitted cruiser, AF, or even some frigs, has a huge leg up on cruisers ratting against 0.1 to 0.4 difficulty rats, and if they bring friends they're usually assured numerical advantage. In 0.0 space they'd be up against t2 fitted BCs, BSs, HACs, and AFs, likely with friends nearby raring for some action. In short, a fair fight.

I'm not sure how much CCP can do to fix this; so much of the problem is, I think, human in nature. Making any character with a less-than-zero security rating fair game in low sec would be one step. Doing something about the low sec gate camps and snipers would be another. But I really don't think it'd counter players' desire to win easy fights against other players.

Ultimately, I think the real question is this: why do experienced pirates stick around in low sec looking for fights with players they know they'll outclass, instead of migrating out to 0.0 and upping their game?

Asboh
Gallente
Kal'Torno Holdings
Posted - 2006.10.03 07:55:00 - [137]
 

One thing that occurs to me: It's not so much the actual risk/reward that matters in attracting people to low-sec, it's the perceived risk/reward.

If people perceive low-sec to be significantly more dangerous than it is all the nerfing of high-sec and boosting of low-sec is a total waste. Conversely if people perceive low-sec to be much safer than it is - they'll soon discover their mistake.

I don't have a cunning solution based on that I'm afraid - but I think it is important to consider.

Transferable kill-rights sounds useful. In fact given the way security works *saleable* kill-rights might be interesting - add agent informants that will tell you the last-known system a pilot was in and you've got yourself a way of the non-PvPer low-sec pilots biting back - Plus the pirates get more fights, so everyone wins.. Wink

Does anyone run a 'Mafia' style low-sec operation? Pick a system, get a corp together - offer 'protection' for a fee, and warp in to help out miners/mission runners that are paying their dues? Rather than anti-pirate corps, it's a bit of both..

Yeah, yeah - if you can get that organised you'd make more money in 0.0. But, seems like it might be fun.

Luke Pubcrawler
Posted - 2006.10.03 13:32:00 - [138]
 

Very radical suggestion and one that I am sure will draw fire from both sides I know but:

blur the distinction between high sec and low sec. 1.0 -0.7 reamains as now.

.6-.3 becomes middlesec. Sentrys as now, concord might respond to an aggression (say 50% chance in .6 down to 25% in .3) but slower (random time from 20sec to 1 minute, in much less force and it will not be an exploit to escape concord in middlesec. Actually, let the local empire navy intervene rather than concord (good pirates might even be able to get a few navy kills as these patrols would not be as tough as others). Big sec hit if you kill a police ship but possibility of nice loot drops.
0.2 and 0.1 sec remain as at present.

This makes life more interesting for the pirates and gives the more adventurous empire players some feeling of protection if they venture out of genuine high sec (of which there would be less.

Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2006.10.03 14:51:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Luke Pubcrawler
Very radical suggestion and one that I am sure will draw fire from both sides I know but:

blur the distinction between high sec and low sec. 1.0 -0.7 reamains as now.



i like

its a bit stupid as it is atm.
0.5 - ok ores, moderate bounty npcs, 100% safe from player piracy
0.4 - slightly better ores, slightly increased bounties, get ganked as soon as a solo pirate in an inty comes along

in 0.5 they learn nothing. no risk, can warp out when they want. in 0.4 they suddenly cant and they risk getting podkilled too. needs some more diversity between sec status really :( like using certain modules such as scramblers is illegal in higher-sec, but can still shoot without police intervention, or the police only come if you actually kill them

infraX
Caldari
Pastry Productions Inc.
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2006.10.03 15:57:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Swindy
Originally by: infraX
The problem is too many people want to play solo - but this isn't a solo game.


It can be a solo game if you want it to be. If you want to mine or build things in relative peace and quiet then stay in the newbie corp and just go about your business in high-sec.

Sure, the high value minerals aren't there, but neither is any of the stress from war decs, pirates, or nbsi alliances. Just learn to work the market. This is one of the reasons that Empire is more populated than low-sec.

Living effectively in low-sec takes much more effort than Empire, and there's clearly a lot of casual players that just aren't willing to make the effort.

I've read some suggestions about punishing high-sec and boosting low-sec. IMHO all that will do is cause people to quit. It doesn't address the real reasons why people are staying safe and happy in Empire. Part of it is risk-vs-reward, and part of it is just pure risk.


High sec empire can be played solo but high sec isn't even half of the game. If you want to play the rest of the game (i.e 0.0 and low sec empire) you will need friends to do it properly or you will go home crying in your pod or wake up in your cloning station. Not to suggest that it's impossible to survive in these areas solo but you really need work with others to reap the benefits properly and more safely.

Dynast
Osirians Of Eve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.03 16:10:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: infraX
High sec empire can be played solo but high sec isn't even half of the game. If you want to play the rest of the game (i.e 0.0 and low sec empire) you will need friends to do it properly or you will go home crying in your pod or wake up in your cloning station. Not to suggest that it's impossible to survive in these areas solo but you really need work with others to reap the benefits properly and more safely.

That just isn't true. I joined my first corp a couple weeks ago, before that I spent more than six months soloing in 0.0 space, and it's been entirely worth it. Good bounties, good loot, okay missions when I'm willing to take the time, and fights against people who are at least mostly able to fight back. And I trained for BC/BS, rather than going for an AF, which would have made soloing in 0.0 space a piece of cake.

It's fair to say that corporations are much more effective at everything, especially maintaining space in 0.0, but claiming that it's impossible to solo in 0.0, or that you can do so but only poorly, is fallacious.

Kayleigh Xaos
Trader's Academy
Daikoku Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2006.10.03 18:46:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Rawr Cristina

Nerf
Hi
Sec




And lose players.

Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2006.10.03 19:30:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Kayleigh Xaos
Originally by: Rawr Cristina

Nerf
Hi
Sec




And lose players.


many are thankful that CCP wants the game to be in balance and actually require risk for your rewards rather than appealing to the masses and slowly turning it into WOW.

Lenore el'Draes
Posted - 2006.10.03 19:49:00 - [144]
 

I'm posting with an alt here simply because of what I'm about to say:

Some of us in low-sec "grief" because we don't want other players in our areas. We have POSes that make us lots of money from moon products or have rogue drone complexes that we don't like other people using.

That said, being a low-sec pirate, I still would like there to be better reward in low-sec. Though the area I'm in has a fair number of players of various types, with pirates being in the slight minority, I would like to see more targets.

Thus I must agree with this:
Originally by: Cmdr Sy
Originally by: Demonique
1) Does Low security Space need a facelift?
2) Are the risks of entering Low-Sec worth the rewards gained?
3) What would you do to attract more people to the Low Security areas?

1) Yes!

2) No, unless by "reward" one means killing someone in a belt. For the ambitious newbie, alliance 0.0 offers a far better risk / reward balance as far as ISK is concerned.

3) My wish list is as follows (and I do play both sides of the PVPer / carebear coin)...


i) Add more high quality low sec L3/L4 kill agents, spread out uniformly, but NOT ones transferred from high sec Empire.

ii) Better ore table. Jaspet does not cut it and never did - why bother when Scordite, Kernite, etc are in 0.6? It is time to make Hemorphite and Hedbergite the norm, all the way up to and including 0.4 sec.

iii) Raise spawn quality. A PVP-setup Incursus pilot with a couple of million SPs, or a Punisher with even fewer SPs, can make mincemeat of any 0.4 sec spawn. Killing low sec belt spawns is great money for a complete newbie, but not great money for someone trying to pay the running costs of cruisers and BCs. A low sec L3 kill agent would pay better than the belts, for considerably lower PVP risk - but generally that option is not available either. Make spawns slightly tougher, and pay far better.

iv) Better station facilities. I have not seen too many one-stop-shops for everything, as is usually the case in Empire hubs. I realise low sec living is supposed to be "hard", but the frequent absence of repair facilities, incidence of 30% efficiency refineries, etc, can render some systems worthless as real estate. I realise a station described as a "Bank" or whatever is not supposed to offer much, but could we raise the minimum number of services offered from the current 4-5?

v) Far better NPC buy orders than those available in high sec Empire, and perhaps ones for items only available in low sec space - special complex drops, high end ore, some new stuff like NPC tags only available in a low sec loot table. If NPCs want the goods hauled or generated out there, they can pay the premium.
Honestly number 5 is the best of the bunch. There's gotta be a reason for people to come out to low-sec initially, and being able to ship goods from high-sec to low-sec at a large profit is perfect. Yes, it'll be high-risk, there will probably be people gate camping. But if they can make 5-10x more profit by taking their product to low-sec than in "safe" space, they'll come.


One of the problems is people assume they should be able to do everything solo. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. The answer to dealing with low-sec pirates like me is not to boost mining/transport ships to be able to fight us off. No, it's to bring friends to give you cover, or to scout ahead if you're traveling.

Swindy
BlackOps Brigade
Posted - 2006.10.04 02:21:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
many are thankful that CCP wants the game to be in balance and actually require risk for your rewards rather than appealing to the masses and slowly turning it into WOW.


I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and I might be wrong ... but I bet CCP would be pretty happy if they could get 6 million people to pay for a monthly account.

It's crazy talk, I know ...

bio collector
Posted - 2006.10.04 08:34:00 - [146]
 

One problem with low sec is if you initiate combat, you get a sec loss. Many players don't want a negative rating as it often concerns recruiting corporations. So, if a player wanted to hunt some NPC in low sec, even though the rewards are really poor, right now his only option is to run from anyone entering local. If there was a faster way to raise sec rating, even if only found in low sec!, then a player could go prepared to strike first and not be such a victim. IMO, there needs to be a certain type of rat that boosts sec rating a lot, though its bounty need not be high at all.

Luke Pubcrawler
Posted - 2006.10.04 10:59:00 - [147]
 

Edited by: Luke Pubcrawler on 04/10/2006 11:02:21
Originally by: LittleTerror
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
this thread screams out one thing, even if the OP didnt intend it do.

Nerf
Hi
Sec


at the moment most low-sec is about as busy as 0.0. imo this is wrong


Agreed - penalties annoy people, rewards encourage them. Despite the constant calls to nerf highsec the proponents never get their heads around the fact that all this will do is irritate high sec dewllers some of whom will quit and very few of whom will feel obliged to take greater risks. Even if they do they won't go to lowsec they will go to 0.0 -it's risk/reward ratio is much better. (Risk similar or lower once past the initial camps-reward much higher). When the nerf to high sec fails what then - I know lets nerf 0.0 as well ! Give me a reason to go to lowsec don't try to force me as it won't work.

On a side note I am really starting to get fed up with the constant demands on these forums to nerf things - Stabs, Ravens, Caldari, Lowsec, nos, ecm. Few suggestions for minor tweaks, few concrete proposals for in game solutions to supposedly strong systems, few suggestions for boosting weaker ones or using them better, just a constant barrage of "XXX is to strong NERF IT NOW !!!!" Yes game balance matters. Yes some syttems need improving some need moderating but frankly I think the next time I read the word NERF I am going to throw up.

They just need to boost lowsec, if they try to force those people into lowsec, I fear they will leave the game, so instead we need lots of lovely treats in lowsec so people will at least be more interested

Miz Piggy
Posted - 2006.10.04 12:47:00 - [148]
 

Would a simple solution not be along these lines:

If you are positive sec status, and somebody shoots you, that person gets negative sec.

If you are negative sec, anybody can shoot you, without any sec status change.

This would in theory encourage more pirate hunting, and allow pirate hunting to actually become a sustainable living.

kill0rbunny
Caldari
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.04 14:18:00 - [149]
 

Edited by: kill0rbunny on 04/10/2006 14:21:16
I am a mission runner and only PvP for fun, because Mission Running in Caldari Ships is boring, as they are too easy.
At the moment I do Missions in a Ferox to pay for my ships i ruin in PvP against stronger Opponents in Lowsec.

I wouldn't see much of a problem by moving all Level 4 Missions to Lowsec, as there are modules to prevent someone from beeing ganked.
A Raven with two wcs will not easily be ganked by any player at any time. But why should one risk his Raven in Lowsec if he has Level 4 Agents in Highsec he can use and makes even faster money when putting two bcs in for the wcs.

Bein able to do Level 4 only in Lowsec would certainly populate it a bit more.
Think i would buy WCS BPOs then as they would be in great demand. Rolling Eyes

Luke Pubcrawler
Posted - 2006.10.04 14:47:00 - [150]
 

Moving lvl4 agents to low sec would do very little to increase the population there. Players who PvE for cash to PvP might spend more time in lowsec true but these are players who can afford to lose the ship and fittings - they are by definition risk takers anyway as there real aim is PvP.

A lot of players, especially those relatively new to the game won't go if forced. Move the lvl4s and they will stick to 3s. The risk of lowsec, in the case of a newish player, outwieighs the likely reward. 100mill for the Raven you suggest, at least 50mill more if you want a good fitting rather than just an acceptable one, 30 mill insurance. Even then a typical player cannot rush thro these missons the way real vets in faction fitted ships can. I might manage 1 or 2 lvl 4s an evening, maybe. It would take me a couple of weeks to make the cost of my Raven - 2 weeks which I have to survive in lowsec. Your average player, bear in mind the average duration of an Eve life is 7months, just does not need the grief involved in lowsec life, and will avoid it. It is not why they play the game, force them to go somewhere they do not enjoy being and they leave. You will never get the dedicate PvE people to lowsec or 0.0 - end of story.

If you want lowsec to be home to more players from highsecmake it feel safer for them and increase the rewards. Eve, we are constantly told is about risk and reward - dont make the rewards of high sec lower, that antagonises people, tempt them into lowsec don't tyr to force them.

Also, bring the 0.0 people into highsec more. They want to fightMake lowsec more attractive to them and they will certainly take the risk.

As I have already said, I am not one of the dedicated PvE players. PvP is not a problem for me, I already have a couple of killmails and have died a few times, fair enough. Lowsec is out of balance, riskier but not much more rewarding than highsec, not really any riskier and less rewarding than 0.0, I am actually surprised anyone bothers being there. My jump clones are now positioned in 0.0 and Empire - lowsec is now somewhere to pass thro by clone transfer and maybe visit once a month for loot disposal.


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