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Arkani Gera
Hibbleton
Posted - 2006.09.22 20:41:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Celeste Storm


Ok, lets forget about my idea of having sisi on tq, but ur statement is a bit flawned because even if I die in a mission no npc will EVER pod me. so at least my 500M+ investment of implants is safe. Thats one of the main reasons jump clones where introduced (besides RFD). Wink

Cel.


the point is still very much valid, you should never fly what you can't afford to lose where you are at risk of losing it, ie. implants in lowsec...


Portios Smith
DNR
Posted - 2006.09.22 21:00:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Abaddon Nostros
Quote:
So say for example our -9 pirate Blackbeard has a 150 mil bounty and he gets whacked by a bounty hunter. The bounty hunter shouldg et the 150 mil like normal... but the pirate should LOSE 150 mil from his wallet as well.... dont give it as an extra to the bounty hunter, just have it disapear, and isk sink. This way having bounties is what it should be: A BAD THING.



This idea, or some variation of it,is actually pretty good.

This might work towards a way of detering people claiming there own bounties. I haven't figured the specifics yet, but its in there somewhere I think.




So what happens when some BoB guy puts a 2 bil bounty on your head, you get smartbombed/podded, and you have to recycle your 15m SP character because you're now 1.9 billion ISK in the hole?


Nop, have your alt pod you, just like you would now only you have to use the bounty to dig your arse out of the hole Razz

Gonada
The Scope
Posted - 2006.09.22 22:58:00 - [63]
 

the number 1 reason why poeple dont want to goto 0.0 is, imho, gatecamps, not pvp.

not sure how to fix it, but emerging from a gatejump, into 30 ships hanging round the gate with a warp bubble up seems to make most people question wether to take the plunge :)





Trojanman190
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2006.09.23 02:19:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Abaddon Nostros
Quote:
So say for example our -9 pirate Blackbeard has a 150 mil bounty and he gets whacked by a bounty hunter. The bounty hunter shouldg et the 150 mil like normal... but the pirate should LOSE 150 mil from his wallet as well.... dont give it as an extra to the bounty hunter, just have it disapear, and isk sink. This way having bounties is what it should be: A BAD THING.



This idea, or some variation of it,is actually pretty good.

This might work towards a way of detering people claiming there own bounties. I haven't figured the specifics yet, but its in there somewhere I think.




So what happens when some BoB guy puts a 2 bil bounty on your head, you get smartbombed/podded, and you have to recycle your 15m SP character because you're now 1.9 billion ISK in the hole?


That will surely reduce pirates. =)

But seriously i see your point. Maybe a limit to maximum bounty by a single person, say 100 - 200 mil will solve that. YOu could even set a maximum bount based on the amount of money the player actually has. Tie this to security level or whatnot.

Or just not **** off BoB.

Awox
Minmatar
North Eastern Swat
Posted - 2006.09.23 02:41:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Trojanman190
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Abaddon Nostros
Quote:
So say for example our -9 pirate Blackbeard has a 150 mil bounty and he gets whacked by a bounty hunter. The bounty hunter shouldg et the 150 mil like normal... but the pirate should LOSE 150 mil from his wallet as well.... dont give it as an extra to the bounty hunter, just have it disapear, and isk sink. This way having bounties is what it should be: A BAD THING.



This idea, or some variation of it,is actually pretty good.

This might work towards a way of detering people claiming there own bounties. I haven't figured the specifics yet, but its in there somewhere I think.




So what happens when some BoB guy puts a 2 bil bounty on your head, you get smartbombed/podded, and you have to recycle your 15m SP character because you're now 1.9 billion ISK in the hole?


That will surely reduce pirates. =)

But seriously i see your point. Maybe a limit to maximum bounty by a single person, say 100 - 200 mil will solve that. YOu could even set a maximum bount based on the amount of money the player actually has. Tie this to security level or whatnot.

Or just not **** off BoB.


Or maybe it's just a ****ty idea.

Hire mercs or something.

Ash Vincetti
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2006.09.23 11:17:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Ash Vincetti on 23/09/2006 11:20:03
The solution to the bounty problem is transferable killrights combined with the contract system / war system.

At the moment, you can hire a merc to declare war on an entire corporation.

The next step would be to hire a merc corp and transfer killrights for a specific person to that corp through the contract system. That would involve a fee to CONCORD from the victim, and the regular arranged fee with the mercenary corp. This should cost between 500K and 1M isk with concord to keep in line with current war dec prices.

A less costly option would be to transfer the killrights to a single person. This, again, would be a contract with CONCORD and the individual, and be a slightly less costly option.

The contract ends on the destruction of the pod, or 1 week, unless the victim decides to renew the contract (similar to the war system). The payment between the mercenary and the victim is payed upon termination of the Agressor's pod in order to avoid the mercs running with the cash.

Edit: When you place a bounty, this should be tied with the contract system and killrights system. That is, your bounty is only valid while you have killrights on that person. You should also be able to accept or reject a contract through the contract system. This will help curb the "kill person with the bounty with an alt to claim the cash" option.


Andromada Fearless
Amarr
Crystal Singers
Posted - 2006.09.23 11:50:00 - [67]
 

I would agree that one possible way to get people to move into lower sec areas would be to make Jump Clones easier to obtain.

Another idea i have would be for CCP to make the current sec system more fluid. lets pretend that Concord has cleaned out the undesirable elements from an area and so has a presence in 0.3/0.2 for a period, thus making that area safe for newer players. After a while that extra security could be withdrawn. This would encourage players to take advantage of the safer zone and take up residence. When Concord withdraw some of those players will stay, not all will run for safer space.

Imechal Ravpeim
International Multi-Player Consortium
Posted - 2006.09.24 12:00:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Trojanman190
I think there should be greater penalties for being a low sec pirate. In 0.0 there are no laws, so there is no reason to lose sec or anything like that. But in .1 - .4 it is still semi lawful space and you take sec hits. There are plenty of -9.0 guys zooming around like it isnt a big deal. Guys like that shouldnt be able to come so far into low sec so easily. And for guys with bounty, there shouldnt just be a reward for the person who kills them... there should be a PENALTY for the person the bounty is on. So say for example our -9 pirate Blackbeard has a 150 mil bounty and he gets whacked by a bounty hunter. The bounty hunter shouldg et the 150 mil like normal... but the pirate should LOSE 150 mil from his wallet as well.... dont give it as an extra to the bounty hunter, just have it disapear, and isk sink. This way having bounties is what it should be: A BAD THING. This would actually give an incentive to put bounties on pirates and it would actually make the bounties pretty painful. YOu could even make it so the lower your sec status, the more your bounty gets multiplied. So a -5 pirate with 20 mil on his head would actually lose 100 mil and his killer would get 20 mil.

I think this would lower the number of low sec pirates zooming around. Less pirates mean more GOOD people. If we get miners and such into low sec then pirates who actually are willing to risk that bounty system could move in and start acting like pirates and the OUTLAWS that they are. Systems in low sec should not be dominated by outlaws... I think this system is beneficial to true pirates because you will actually start seeing cargo ships and such flying through low sec. No more ganking at first sight... you may actually want to start asking for dudes to start ejecting thier cargo like you should...




I love this idea actually... it would give people a use for their security status, would lower inflation since the money would just disappear, and it would make people avoid getting bounties, hence, pirate in general. Bounties could be used as blackmail or just grief play really easily though, but hey, that can happen in real life too. Perhaps this could also introduce a loan system incase you had to go into debt... CONCORD could give the loans, if you don't pay them, they don't let you into anything but 0.0. They could put a skill in that lets you slip into low-sec under CONCORD's nose to make some money to pay them back. CCP could really take this idea and run with it if they wanted... It'd definately clean up EVE of all the "wanna-be" pirates or low-sec gankers, that's for sure... Pirating should come with more risk. Make criminals actually FEEL like criminals. All I really want to say is that if the bounty system was fixed, it would really take care of piracy... it would fix it as well. It would probably bring ransoming back, would make people more hesitant to kill while pirating. Agh... too much to think about really. But, anyone who complains about it isn't a real "pirate", those are all that should be in low-sec(gankers shouldn't be able to hide in low-sec and kill whoever enters soverigned territory anyway Evil or Very Mad *thinks of Amamake*), and pvp would be laregely unaffected since it wouldn't effect 0.0 at all. Maybe if you were podded while in 0.0 you wouldn't lose your cash from the bounty, or being in a higher sec space means you'd have to give more of it. That could even push the pirates into lower and lower space... I'm just trying to brainstorm here...


Another idea is that if the player had high standing with the faction that was soverign in the system, that their ships could come out and attack the pirate much like CONCORD would have, that would definately bring the people who lived in highsec with all those high standings into low sec for the greater rewards.

Dupac
Subite
Posted - 2006.09.24 12:11:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Celeste Storm
Edited by: Celeste Storm on 22/09/2006 12:00:44
Originally by: Dupac
Why do pirates gatecamp? Because there is no one in the belts.


Why is nobody in the belts? Because nobody get there because of the gate camps. So we are where we started. Wink

Cel.

/EDIT: why does the forum stars out the first letters of ur name Dupac when I quote it? ShockedSurprised


No idea why the forum blanks out part of my name - maybe it's rude in Icelandic Smile

Not every low sec system has a huge gatecamp with hundreds of merciless pirates in it - in fact very few do and they tend to move around. I spent a lot of time in low sec before going pirate and it's not that hard to stay alive travelling about, in fact it's very easy with a few precautions.

To get back on point - imo the reason why noone is in the belts is that there is no reason to go there, the NPC's aren't that exciting and the ore isn't a great deal better than empire considering the risk.

I think CCP need to do two things - make it harder to gatecamp at range and give people a reason to go into lowsec. buff up the rewards from NPC hunting and mining in low sec and maybe corps will get organised and start taking advantage of it.

infraX
Caldari
Pastry Productions Inc.
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2006.09.28 12:01:00 - [70]
 

It would be nice to see low sec space as a kind of stepping stone into 0.0. I'm not sure if that's what CCP originally intended but I think the rewards should be half way between high sec empire space and 0.0 space. This would allow corporations to start off in empire, moving their activities into low sec once they feel they have the numbers and experience to look after themselves. The stepping stone idea is good because it allows such corps to 'test the water' before they dive off deep into 0.0 somewhere to fend for themselves. It's a good test to see if they can handle space where people are actively going to hunt them down and shoot at them. Another good bonus is that they can make a lot more money in lowsec than in high sec (even if it's not quite as much as 0.0 - but it's a stepping stone to see if they are ready!) They also have easy access to stations with good refining and markets. It's not like true 0.0 where you are umpteen jumps from the nearest high sec system and market.

In my experience, pirates usually operate in small groups and there are far worse dangers in 0.0 than in lowsec. For a start, there are generally lots more ships per gate camp in 0.0 and they are able to use warp bubbles and interceptors/interdictors on the gates that can aggress without getting one vollied by sentry guns. By comparison, lowsec gate camps are typically all battleship camps with no decent ability to scramble things as fast as the toys available in 0.0 camps. Also, the aggressors are being hammered by sentry guns aswell as having to kill their targets - and can't make good use of DRONES! (ever wondered why pirates seem to use only T1 light drones and not T2 even on their battleships? it's because the SENTRY GUNS KILL THEM!) In 0.0, there are a lot more people and ship classes going around that are more likely to engage you on gates than in lowsec.

I think I've proved that technically speaking, lowsec is easier and safer to live in than 0.0. All it would take to make this a reality, is for CCP t beef up the rewards and for corporations to band together against the evil pirates (damn those nasty pirates) and start reaping the rewards.

(pirates are not invincible and in many ways are inferior to the magnitude and types of threats that 0.0 has to offer as outligned above.)

GrimDoomsday
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.09.28 12:31:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Abaddon Nostros
Quote:
So say for example our -9 pirate Blackbeard has a 150 mil bounty and he gets whacked by a bounty hunter. The bounty hunter shouldg et the 150 mil like normal... but the pirate should LOSE 150 mil from his wallet as well.... dont give it as an extra to the bounty hunter, just have it disapear, and isk sink. This way having bounties is what it should be: A BAD THING.



This idea, or some variation of it,is actually pretty good.

This might work towards a way of detering people claiming there own bounties. I haven't figured the specifics yet, but its in there somewhere I think.




So what happens when some BoB guy puts a 2 bil bounty on your head, you get smartbombed/podded, and you have to recycle your 15m SP character because you're now 1.9 billion ISK in the hole?


or get a corp mate add the bounty while you have have someones pod scrambled already for maximum grief. will hurt pirate hunters too also.

I've been ratting in low sec sytems past few days and the spawns are just ****, NPC BC spawn rate should be upped a lot, so its not hard to make 3 - 4 mil in an hour in bounties.

Qall Rungbar
Neuro Cartographic Services
Posted - 2006.09.28 13:29:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Trojanman190
I generally stay in high sec. Only reason I go to low sec is to hunt pirates, because that is all that is there.

A few of my observations....

There are three types of players in low sec,
in order from most plentiful to least common:
1.) Pirates.
2.) People hunting pirates.
3.) Noobs who dont know any better.

Pirates are by far the most common.

So before I start spouting about the lack of ore to mine and such in low sec... I think pirates are the number one issue people dont care for low sec. There are far to many pirates. Anytime you enter a system in low sec you can bet that 9 out of 10 people in local are going to be pirates. If you make it through that system, there will be even more pirates. You cant mine in low sec, even if there was good ore and you did have an escort... there are just to many pirates to fight them all. And as it stands, mining ships have a pathetic tank. Yes, even the hulk. In low sec you arent really worried about tanking rats, you are worried about the bad dudes that show up.

If the numbers reversed, and pirates were a lot more rare, I think low sec could really open up. I think there should be greater penalties for being a low sec pirate. In 0.0 there are no laws, so there is no reason to lose sec or anything like that. But in .1 - .4 it is still semi lawful space and you take sec hits. There are plenty of -9.0 guys zooming around like it isnt a big deal. Guys like that shouldnt be able to come so far into low sec so easily. And for guys with bounty, there shouldnt just be a reward for the person who kills them...



QFT

I'm not sure about the mechanics of Trojanman's orginal post for implementing something like this, but Carnye's suggestion is a great one. Pirating would be viable, but harder. It is low-sec after all, not no-sec. So why do the non-combat players have to watch their backs so much? Surely the outlaws should have to do this more than the law-abiders?

So if Low sec is too much risk, not enough reward, there are two options. Increase the reward (already been discussed a fair bit), or reduce the risk by making it harder for pirates to operate safely in low sec. A combination of the two, a compromise, would mean it's not necessary to "nerf" the combat PvP aspect, and will make things a bit more survivable for the non-combat players.

Just my 0.02 ISK.

Cosmar
Gallente
The Greater Goon
Clockwork Pineapple
Posted - 2006.09.28 14:05:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Cosmar on 28/09/2006 14:06:01
It seems to me it's not the rewards of low-sec that are the problem. But the fact that the "good guys" can't actively defend themseleves/the system against known pirates without getting a security hit, which ironically affects them more (as they care about missions, getting about in high-sec, etc..). I'd love to see a small concord bounty for crimes comited (basicly for each ship destroyed "illegally" in empire space and bigger for each podkill), and a license to kill for everyone until a certain time has passed (not just a few minutes).

And as said pirating is too risk free compared to what the others stand to lose/gain if they were to mine or kill NPCs.

Lygos
Amarr
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2006.09.28 14:14:00 - [74]
 

I only see a few ways to give lowsec a facelift:

Increase market and refine taxes in Jita and the rest of +0.5, and decrease them in Amamake and the rest of 0.1-0.4


Covops alts were just a pvp band-aid to mop up the last few stragglers in lowsec in order to keep the pvpers subscribed.

infraX
Caldari
Pastry Productions Inc.
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2006.09.28 14:23:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: infraX on 28/09/2006 14:26:20
Originally by: Cosmar
Edited by: Cosmar on 28/09/2006 14:06:01
It seems to me it's not the rewards of low-sec that are the problem. But the fact that the "good guys" can't actively defend themseleves/the system against known pirates without getting a security hit, which ironically affects them more (as they care about missions, getting about in high-sec, etc..). I'd love to see a small concord bounty for crimes comited (basicly for each ship destroyed "illegally" in empire space and bigger for each podkill), and a license to kill for everyone until a certain time has passed (not just a few minutes).

And as said pirating is too risk free compared to what the others stand to lose/gain if they were to mine or kill NPCs.



Do you think people mine and rat in 0.0 "risk free" as you put it? The fact is if people want higher rewards, they must take higher risks.

Also, you can always defend yourself from real pirates without taking a sec hit (i.e. real pirates with real outlaw status and not just the opportunistic -1.9 'naughty boys')

infraX
Caldari
Pastry Productions Inc.
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2006.09.28 14:24:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Qall Rungbar
Originally by: Trojanman190
I generally stay in high sec. Only reason I go to low sec is to hunt pirates, because that is all that is there.

A few of my observations....

There are three types of players in low sec,
in order from most plentiful to least common:
1.) Pirates.
2.) People hunting pirates.
3.) Noobs who dont know any better.

Pirates are by far the most common.

So before I start spouting about the lack of ore to mine and such in low sec... I think pirates are the number one issue people dont care for low sec. There are far to many pirates. Anytime you enter a system in low sec you can bet that 9 out of 10 people in local are going to be pirates. If you make it through that system, there will be even more pirates. You cant mine in low sec, even if there was good ore and you did have an escort... there are just to many pirates to fight them all. And as it stands, mining ships have a pathetic tank. Yes, even the hulk. In low sec you arent really worried about tanking rats, you are worried about the bad dudes that show up.

If the numbers reversed, and pirates were a lot more rare, I think low sec could really open up. I think there should be greater penalties for being a low sec pirate. In 0.0 there are no laws, so there is no reason to lose sec or anything like that. But in .1 - .4 it is still semi lawful space and you take sec hits. There are plenty of -9.0 guys zooming around like it isnt a big deal. Guys like that shouldnt be able to come so far into low sec so easily. And for guys with bounty, there shouldnt just be a reward for the person who kills them...



QFT

I'm not sure about the mechanics of Trojanman's orginal post for implementing something like this, but Carnye's suggestion is a great one. Pirating would be viable, but harder. It is low-sec after all, not no-sec. So why do the non-combat players have to watch their backs so much? Surely the outlaws should have to do this more than the law-abiders?

So if Low sec is too much risk, not enough reward, there are two options. Increase the reward (already been discussed a fair bit), or reduce the risk by making it harder for pirates to operate safely in low sec. A combination of the two, a compromise, would mean it's not necessary to "nerf" the combat PvP aspect, and will make things a bit more survivable for the non-combat players.

Just my 0.02 ISK.


The outlaws are always "watching their backs", people who fall victim to outlaws aren't watching their backs either enough or at all. That is the difference.

Lygos
Amarr
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2006.09.28 14:32:00 - [77]
 

The only downside to lowering taxes in lowsec is that it increases the pressure on POS refineries. Not that they were ever competitive with stations to begin with, but that's another issue.

The only real room for change in this arrangement is to raise market taxes in empire.


It's not simply moving a few industrialists down to lowsec, but shifting populations by the corpload. They should make out alright with POS to support their defenders.

I certainly know there are adequate pirate dreads out there (well a couple fewer), and even more adequate merc dreads to deal with them in turn.

General Coochie
The Bastards
The Bastards.
Posted - 2006.09.28 15:21:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: General Coochie on 28/09/2006 15:24:34
Another thing that I think kills low-sec is that 0.0 isnt hard enough.

A single BS can solo most of the spawns I reckon (I have no such experience) and only 2 cruisers is enough to make a good living out there.

Me and my friend played for 3-4 weeks now. We are still in cruisers and will move to BCs very soon. We joined a corp in 0.0 1-2 weeks ago who are sponserd by an alliance. We can together handle many spawns there making lots and lots of isk, BS spawns with frigs as defence beeing the easiest for us. We are flying a cruiser each. We have no problem handling a 1.1 million spawn when it only has frigs for defence (couldnt get the 6mill BS domination spawn though :( as it was guarded by BCs and cruisers). My point beeing that the "gap" between ratting in low-sec and 0.0 can be very brief. If you are searching the belts "good" spawns always come along. The isk we made in low sec before we ventured out here is nothing compared to this. Also beeing in an alliance we feel MUCH more safe now then when we felt while ratting in our frigs in 0.3

So theres absolutely no reason for us ever going to low-sec again, unless the alliance kick us out and becomes hostile to us.

So the real profitable areas in EvE are 1.0-0.5 and 0.0 considering the risks vs the rewards. low-sec clearly falls short IMO.

Qall Rungbar
Neuro Cartographic Services
Posted - 2006.09.29 09:54:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Qall Rungbar on 29/09/2006 09:55:34
Originally by: infraX

The outlaws are always "watching their backs", people who fall victim to outlaws aren't watching their backs either enough or at all. That is the difference.


I don't doubt that outlaws are, and I can talk from personal experience that most victims don't watch their backs enough!

However, from my experience of the low sec around my corp HQ, the pirates have a pretty free rein to operate where they like. It strikes me as a little imbalanced that they can act with near impunity, whereas even passing through those systems can be dangerous if you aren't looking for a fight.

Don't get me wrong, the last thing I want to see is the end of pirates - they make this game what it is.

I just think that if you choose to live a life of crime, then maybe you shouldn't be able to go where you like so easily. Although I don't want to see low sec become like hi-sec either. So I'm not sure what to suggest. Maybe random CONCORD patrols into low sec? -ve security people have some chance to get out? Or maybe less of a sec hit if a +ve sec player takes out a -ve sec player? Or even no hit at all, and sec gain if you take out somone below -5? (flamers note - thinking aloud - not serious suggestions!)

Or maybe it's not up to CCP. Maybe there's nothing wrong with the mechanics at all - maybe we just need more players to take back low sec from the pirates.

Celeste Storm
Posted - 2006.09.29 11:09:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Qall Rungbar
Don't get me wrong, the last thing I want to see is the end of pirates - they make this game what it is.

Really? Surprised
A true pirate (RP or not) is actually contributing to the game. I dont discuss this, its obvious and I dont want this to change. But this type is a vast minority.
The common pie rat is nothing but a frag horny, bored player who actually gives a damn f*ck about others. There is nothing more to say. I'm sure you so called pirats have plenty of excuses or even better: flames. But thats all, there is nothing more behind you, other than to disturb and **** off players you call carebaers for nothing than a bunch of weak excuses and own enjoyment.

Pirats are outlaws, pirats are hunted by all authorities, they are murderer, simply said criminals! They would be arrested on sight by any empire. The sad truth is: pirats can enter high sec as they like without even bothered by local police. They can have killed a pilot just 20min ago and enter a high sec system without any risk.

Dont argue: "but, but if ur below -5 u cannot even longer high sec... *sigh*" - a few hours mission running in low sec and ur security status is back on normal level. Sorry, but this is just: L.O.L.(tm)

So whats the big deal? Simple: Change the whole criminal system!

1. If one player attacks another player in empire space (low sec/ high sec) he gets a criminal flagging. With this flag, he is a true outlaw and can be shoot be anybody even in highsec.

2. To get rid of this flagging you must either die (getting killed by another player) or doing a very long and time consuming mission for the concord to actually prove that u want to change your living (not just to farm sec status).

This will lead to 2 things: True pirats will be survive as the dont care about entering high sec to buy stuff from "carebears" who they hate so much and gankers will vanish (becoming "carebaers" for themselfes or even better ... go back to public CS servers Wink).

Cel.

Asha'Lil
Minmatar
The Black Fleet
Rule of Three
Posted - 2006.09.29 11:39:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Asha''Lil on 29/09/2006 11:39:52
arg nvm for some reason i cut out my whole post... I aint typeing that again!

Natas Dog
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.09.29 13:24:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Celeste Storm
1. If one player attacks another player in empire space (low sec/ high sec) he gets a criminal flagging. With this flag, he is a true outlaw and can be shoot be anybody even in highsec.

2. To get rid of this flagging you must either die (getting killed by another player) or doing a very long and time consuming mission for the concord to actually prove that u want to change your living (not just to farm sec status).

I actually like this idea in theory, but it wouldn't be all that difficult to switch ships and have a buddy vape you to get you back to normal. People being what they are, they'll use the easiest way out of the situation. I suppose if you weren't allowed to switch ships for the duration of this criminal flagging that may work though.

Clavain Gobuchul
Minmatar
Dragon Corp
Posted - 2006.09.29 13:51:00 - [83]
 

I have recently moved from low-sec to 0.0, the difference was frankly amazing. So I have no issue with the idea of improving low-sec in order to graduate risk/reward more. It certainly needs it.

Now, I was mainly mining in low-sec and the reason I chose to do so there rather than high-sec was quantity of ore and quieter systems. Essentially I did not want to compete for Golden Omber quite so much as I had to do in high-sec. I think perhaps introducing rarer ore's is a possible answer, but I don't feel it's necessary. The fact that I had access to larger roids of Omber and had to share them with less people was enough to get me out there.

However, getting that ore to high-sec where the best prices were being paid was another matter. When you have spent several hours mining (which is extremely boring) and you then have to run the gauntlet of gate camps with it, thats is why I feel most people do not want to risk it. Avoiding Pirates while mining in a barge was never really a problem for me. Getting through gate camps was. And before people say 'get a mate to scout', you can't when low-sec is empty because your mates don't see things the same way you do about the risk/reward in low-sec. They were in high-sec.

The people I am talking about in high-sec are newer than me but want to fight. However, they don't want to take a security hit because they fired first, neither do they want to wait until fired on as that puts them at a disadvantage. So how about this:

Have lower percentage drops to security status when in low-sec.

These people I'm talking about would probably be happier running anti-pirate campaigns because they can keep the security status up more easily with missions if the drops were not so big. OK, it would take the Pirates longer to get their security rating down towards the magic 'Outlaw' status, but so what? They may just have more targets.

If such Anti Pirate Corps felt they could operate in low-sec in such a way, it might start to become 'policed' and those systems would become known and generate an influx of miners and traders. Then we see the Pirates in a risk/reward situation as well which has to be good thing for those that want to Pirate properly (by which I mean hunting and scanning rather than gate camping).

Just an observation from my experiances.

Celeste Storm
Posted - 2006.09.29 13:54:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Natas Dog
Originally by: Celeste Storm
1. If one player attacks another player in empire space (low sec/ high sec) he gets a criminal flagging. With this flag, he is a true outlaw and can be shoot be anybody even in highsec.

2. To get rid of this flagging you must either die (getting killed by another player) or doing a very long and time consuming mission for the concord to actually prove that u want to change your living (not just to farm sec status).

I actually like this idea in theory, but it wouldn't be all that difficult to switch ships and have a buddy vape you to get you back to normal. People being what they are, they'll use the easiest way out of the situation. I suppose if you weren't allowed to switch ships for the duration of this criminal flagging that may work though.

Alright, maybe I was not detailed enough. You can switch ships as much as you want. The flagging is not linked with the ship but with your character. Actually, I never understod what a criminal flagging has to do with a ship. Rolling Eyes

No, if ur flagged you must be killed from somebody who actually as a +sec.status. The whole rediculous thing is: a bounty hunter CANNOT play its role because when he pods somebody he becomes an outlaw aswell. Thats plain and simple stupid.

If a criminal flagging is on somebody's head he is now prey for all bounty hunters. Killing such a criminal would actually raise ur security status, simply because you enforced the law. So a good bounty hunter would never get -sec.status if he only attacks criminals.

This is a balanced system were each role can be played in their true meaning.

And for those who say: "wahhhh, my lil pirate becomes unplayable..." No, but it becomes realistic. Nobody said being a pirate is 100% fun and 0% risk. Now you can be the scum you want to, but need to face the consequences.

Cel.

Salesman 101
Posted - 2006.09.29 14:42:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Maximillian Power
I spend a good deal of time wandering around low-sec myself.

...The problem with low-sec is that it is not worth it ..And pirates don't ransom anymore. ---> In the many times that I have been attacked and unfortunately defeated -- I have never once been asked for a ransom.

So I won't in low-sec because:
1) I can defend myself in most 1 v 1's
2) If there is anyone else around I will stand back - have a scan etc

Simple really.

What it comes down to is the likelihood of being attacked and destroyed. It is higher now - presumably due to the higher number of pirates. If the chances of being attacked and destroyed were lower then more people would take a chance. Simple tbh

The pirate business is putting itself out of business due to popping shuttles without scanning etc.


Good point. It kind of follows what's called the

The Lotka-Volterra equations

, also known as the predator-prey equations, are a pair of first order, non-linear, differential equations frequently used to describe the dynamics of biological systems in which two species interact, one a predator and one its prey. They were proposed independently by Alfred J. Lotka in 1925 and Vito Volterra in 1926. A classic model using the equations is of the population dynamics of the lynx and the snowshoe hare, popularised due to the extensive data collected on the relative populations of the two species by the Hudson Bay company during the 19th century.

Solutions to the equations
The equations have periodic solutions which do not have a simple expression in terms of the usual trigonometric functions. However, an approximate linearised solution yields a simple harmonic motion with the population of predators leading that of prey by 90.

Dynamics of the system
In the model system, the predators thrive when there are plentiful prey but, ultimately, outstrip their food supply and decline. As the predator population is low the prey population will increase again. These dynamics continue in a cycle of growth and decline.

Natas Dog
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.09.29 15:16:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Celeste Storm
Alright, maybe I was not detailed enough. You can switch ships as much as you want. The flagging is not linked with the ship but with your character. Actually, I never understod what a criminal flagging has to do with a ship. Rolling Eyes

No, if ur flagged you must be killed from somebody who actually as a +sec.status. The whole rediculous thing is: a bounty hunter CANNOT play its role because when he pods somebody he becomes an outlaw aswell. Thats plain and simple stupid.

If a criminal flagging is on somebody's head he is now prey for all bounty hunters. Killing such a criminal would actually raise ur security status, simply because you enforced the law. So a good bounty hunter would never get -sec.status if he only attacks criminals.

This is a balanced system were each role can be played in their true meaning.

And for those who say: "wahhhh, my lil pirate becomes unplayable..." No, but it becomes realistic. Nobody said being a pirate is 100% fun and 0% risk. Now you can be the scum you want to, but need to face the consequences.

Cel.

Apparently I wasn't specific enough in my response. My problem is not with having the criminal flagging tied to the character itself. My problem is with having the criminal switch from his combat ship to a shuttle and then go out in search of someone to shoot him down. In that case there's still little risk involved for the pirate, as he's only out 9k ISK if he wants to shed his 'criminal' status.

You could have the 'criminal' tied to the pod, but in that case I don't feel the punishment fits the crime. If you only shot down another player's ship, you shouldn't be forced to be a criminal until someone pods you. If you are a bloodthirsty ganker that pods everyone he fights, then sure, tie the criminal status to that pilot's pod, since in that case the punishment fits the crime. But if you're just out blowing up innocent haulers/miners and letting their pod slip away, you shouldn't have to worry about your pod being forfeit for it. That just gives more incentive to the 'casual' ganker to pod every pilot he shoots down, instead of letting them live.

Celeste Storm
Posted - 2006.09.29 15:35:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Natas Dog
Apparently I wasn't specific enough in my response. My problem is not with having the criminal flagging tied to the character itself. My problem is with having the criminal switch from his combat ship to a shuttle and then go out in search of someone to shoot him down. In that case there's still little risk involved for the pirate, as he's only out 9k ISK if he wants to shed his 'criminal' status.

You could have the 'criminal' tied to the pod, but in that case I don't feel the punishment fits the crime. If you only shot down another player's ship, you shouldn't be forced to be a criminal until someone pods you. If you are a bloodthirsty ganker that pods everyone he fights, then sure, tie the criminal status to that pilot's pod, since in that case the punishment fits the crime. But if you're just out blowing up innocent haulers/miners and letting their pod slip away, you shouldn't have to worry about your pod being forfeit for it. That just gives more incentive to the 'casual' ganker to pod every pilot he shoots down, instead of letting them live.

Alright, looks like we both had some trouble in understanding each other. Wink
I actually never thought of such a "trick". The only workaround I see is to disallow changing the ship, which you already mentioned and which I find a bit hard. Another idea would be to put the worth of he ship the kill was done with as a bounty on the pirate's head. When he is killed this bounty will be taken from his account. So even if he is in a shuttle he will still lose the money.

But is this really the problem? I mean you will always have this "alt" problem and there is no way to work around this. But it will cause inconvinience and there is no more "free and happy high sec shopping" without getting shoot before.

Cel.

Qel Hoth
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2006.09.29 15:55:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: Qel Hoth on 29/09/2006 15:59:49
double post
stupid forums

Qel Hoth
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2006.09.29 15:59:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Qel Hoth
Originally by: Maximillian Pele
Edited by: Maximillian Pele on 22/09/2006 14:09:15
The main thing CCP got wrong was the inability of mining, hauling, and specialised NPCing ships to be able to defend themselves against PvP fitted ships.




To use a real-life example, you think that your fishing trawler or container ship should be able to adequetly defend itself against a warship?

For some reason this doesnt make a whole lot of sense. Warships are meant for combat, industrials for carrying goods, and miners for mining. All are good at what they were designed for. (Though I wouldnt complain if CCP introduced Q-Ships)

The sytem is perfectly fine as it is. If you want to mine, buy a barge, if you want to haul, buy an industrial, if you want to fight, buy a combat ship. But dont expect a cargo ship to be good at mining or combat, dont expect a miner to be good at hauling or combat, and dont expect a warship to be good at mining or hauling.

Horoc'h Ryydell
Gallente
Midnight Enterprises
Midnight Space Syndicate
Posted - 2006.09.29 16:08:00 - [90]
 

Any of the pirates out there though about making there place in space more attractive themselves? Get some industrial types, build good stuff and sell it for half the price...

There is a reason a mouse walks into a mouse-trap, you know :p

If you work it out well, you could even have a mining corp in your space that pays you in ore or even equipment... could be a good deal, if you really want it; But nothing is for free :p


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