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Kyguard
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.09.06 20:25:00 - [61]
 

Mercs are probably best used when a corporation / alliance is under a lot of pressure and you just need that extra push to make them collapse. I would say that mercs (including the MC) alone can't crack most serious alliances and corps without other factors thrown into the mix.

but yeh, mercs ftw if you've got the isk ugh

TressX
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.09.07 02:00:00 - [62]
 

I consider myself to be a very valuable resource thank you!

Love
Tressx


Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.09.07 03:15:00 - [63]
 

Mercenary as a profession has existed since ages first to be used by the pharos in their battels and up till today modern warfare mercenaries are still used .

They are considered a valuable asset also a liability sicne they fight for the highest bidder so after theri contract is over they can be contracted aginst their first employer. Mercenaries hold no loyalty except to their contract and leadership , their use is usualy to do selected tasks and rarely enage in major warfare sicne they are extremly costly than usual soldiers. Calling mercs scum or what ever is not quite true coz there is a difference between mercs and assasin , imo assasins are on the lower of the honorable combat lvl sicne they do not directly engage they just do stealth hits and run away but at the end they all do their job and get paid and then leave with no cause what so ever except the material gain wether tis currency or assets or commodities.

Max Teranous
Minmatar
Body Count Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.09.07 07:04:00 - [64]
 

Who'd wanna be a Merc, eh?

Very Happy

Anaka Totoch
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.09.07 07:22:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Witch Doctor
Edited by: Witch Doctor on 06/09/2006 18:33:52
Edited by: Witch Doctor on 06/09/2006 18:32:56

That's certainly your prerogative, but what do you stand to gain by setting the mercs negative? We don't care either way and will unthinkingly shoot you if you shoot us. The only impact is on your corp - the threat of a client's target setting us negative on an ongoing basis doesn't affect our decision to take contracts in the slightest and really just gives our starving dogs something to do between contracts.

As for the in Alliance B, would set aside the money to make sexample, I would question why Alliance A made such a risky bet as to pour all their money into a conquerable asset without reserving some capital as contingency. Maybe if you're in a rush to claim the system, but perhaps a more savvy leader, like the leader ure they can protect the asset. Alliance A invested in building the asset - Alliance B invested in taking it.

As Seleene has often said, it is a wise idea to at least factor in the possibility of a merc presence on either side when considering war scenarios. That will leave you a lot more prepared for when they show up and position you to use them as the tools that they are.


Do mercs find it really that easy to live with the fact that they are the ones who may destroy one parties home. As you said it is my perogative, however i would consider it a small price to pay, in order to exact our revenge. After all we have just lost everything, what more could we loose Very Happy

Personally i tried pirating once a long time ago and after having blown up his, i ended up feeling so guilty that i convoed him gave his stuff back and reimbursed him Embarassed

I guess some people have it in them, but at the end of the day it comes down to individuals and everyone is different. For my self being a merc would raise issues of morality and loyalty.

Anaka Totoch
CEO of The Dark Knights of Deneb

Seleene
Minmatar
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.09.07 07:43:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Anaka Totoch
Do mercs find it really that easy to live with the fact that they are the ones who may destroy one parties home.


Yep.


Quote:
I guess some people have it in them, but at the end of the day it comes down to individuals and everyone is different. For my self being a merc would raise issues of morality and loyalty.


We are loyal to our clients. They say who to kill and we do so. Your alliance has a -10 list that I'm sure you don't hesitate to fire upon, yes? It's the same with us, only our -10 list changes a lot. Smile

Tarri
Caldari
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2006.09.07 08:44:00 - [67]
 

Having loyality to your client is no real loyality as it is just the fact that you get isk from your client that makes you behave this way.
So it is only loyality towards your own personal greed.

Imo, the main difference between pirates and mercs is that pirates are honest about what they do while mercs pretend to be something more then simple killers.

In EVE mercs are badly needed as they enrich the game, it is even an all player driven profession so probs to MC and a select few other doing it so classy. In RL, mercs are scum.

Lamb Chop
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.09.07 11:45:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Tarri
Having loyality to your client is no real loyality as it is just the fact that you get isk from your client that makes you behave this way.



That is the whole point of Mercenary work...

Scius
Amarr
RUDEL SCHMUTZIGER BERGBAUER
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2006.09.07 12:21:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: Scius on 07/09/2006 12:22:18
Merc's bring firepower to those that need it & cant supply enough of their own, if organised properly they are a ruthless but disciplined group who can change the face of battle, so i say they are a very good thing.

At FOFF we try to emulate those mercs we hold in high regard, including those who had contracts on us, we learned alot & are still learning but at no point will we be empire pirates.

Boredom is a major problem as everyone has said we try to fill this with killing everyone below -5 sec stat & any -10 corp standings we find. The key to being a good merc corp is recommendations (even from those you shoot), stick to the contract, show respect to the rest of local & above all show your contractees no mercy with no smack.

Its not an easy profession but very rewarding, with none of the 0.0 alliance hassles.

Mitchman
Caldari
Omniscient Order
Posted - 2006.09.07 13:00:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Rodge

Got a lot of respect for guys like the MC who've stuck to it way before anyone even thought about it as a viable career.



It seems to be a common misconception that MC was first. Cult of Cthulhu (RIP) was hired approximately the 2nd week of the game, and fought in Fountain and Venal for their employers.


Kaleeb
Caldari
0ne Percent.
Posted - 2006.09.07 13:09:00 - [71]
 

Yep and people also forget mercenary frigates/cruisers and mercenary forces who have been around a long time

Crovan
Gallente
The Praxis Initiative
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2006.09.07 13:53:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Mitchman
Originally by: Rodge

Got a lot of respect for guys like the MC who've stuck to it way before anyone even thought about it as a viable career.



It seems to be a common misconception that MC was first. Cult of Cthulhu (RIP) was hired approximately the 2nd week of the game, and fought in Fountain and Venal for their employers.




*seems to recall seeing CoC's farewell video, recently*

Point taken, though.

As for the state of mercs in EvE, I think the fact that we are a unique breed has been thoroughly explained.

As for the comments about mercenaries having nothing to motivate them but their own greed, I would argue that the same is true for a lot of non-mercenary corps/alliances as well. The difference with mercs is that we define ourselves by loyalty to each other, our client, and nobody else. Other groups are loyal to one another when it suits the immediate political needs of both parties. With honest mercs, as long as the checks are not bouncing, the guns will keep shooting.

Setting mercs who have just finished a contract on you to negative is silly, but understandable. Why close the door to a group with the potential to help you out in the future? Sure there are lots of emotions about those griefing ****heads that just bbqed your POSes, but what you must understand is that they (if they are "real" mercs) did not do it for personal reasons. Someone paid them to shoot you, so they did. What does setting a merc corp to -10 get you but more trouble? Take the MC for example. Someone sets us to -10 because we went pewpewpew and starts shooting our people in lowsec/0.0. Now, they get hit with a -10 from us, and it's freaking open season while we're off contract. I will almost guarantee that the occasional cheap gank that you might manage is not going to be worth the fury that we can bring down on you, should we so choose between contracts. After all, we have to make sure that we can move around unmolested in preparation for the next contract.

Frankly, those who want to put mercs on the same level as pirates are, imho, either jealous or bitter. Jealous because they cannot do what mercs do, or bitter because they got their toys broken by some icky merc group.

Krisala Torin
Amarr
Hedion University
Posted - 2006.09.07 13:57:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Krisala Torin on 07/09/2006 13:57:15
Ok, so the default character button doesn't work....good to know.

Crovan
Gallente
The Praxis Initiative
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2006.09.07 13:57:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Kyguard
Mercs are probably best used when a corporation / alliance is under a lot of pressure and you just need that extra push to make them collapse. I would say that mercs (including the MC) alone can't crack most serious alliances and corps without other factors thrown into the mix.

but yeh, mercs ftw if you've got the isk ugh


I think we would like someone to try to test that theory :)

I am not so sure that it can't be done, but rather people have not asked us to. Sure, it'd take a long time to really dismantle an alliance, but I think it could be done. As a matter of fact, I think the "serious" groups are the only ones this could be done to, as they are the only ones with 0.0 assets. Empire alliances/corps can always dock up and not log on for awhile. Contractor sees no kills on KB and stops writing checks, then empire group goes on their merry way.

Louis DelaBlanche
Gallente
An Outlying Variable
Posted - 2006.09.07 14:09:00 - [75]
 

Mercs imo are a necessary evil in the real world & in eve. They provide the muscle that many small/non PvP corps require, & can also tip the balance in long wars one way or another. Sure when your on the recieving end of ones fury it can tilt you perspective into hating their guts, & vice versa those whose lives are made easier by them see them as the greatest thing around.

Unfourtnately, EVE being a game (i can say that here cant i? Smile) means that many who pursue the mercenary life it seems quickly find themselves becoming bored. Contracts may make isk, but from the sounds of it they often involve fighting targets that are less then willing to always engage them. Given that it seems war decs are the most common contact method mercs use, its understandable why this maybe as their targets know theyre coming for them & so are extra vigilent.

Consequently, many who arnt willing to rat/mine etc seem to find themselves filling the time ganking bystanders in lowsec systems as theyre easy targets & you need something to do.

Theres more to say but my fingers are getting stiff from all the forum whoring Smile so ill stop there.

Eyeshadow
Caldari
The xDEATHx Squadron
Posted - 2006.09.07 14:20:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Tarri
Having loyality to your client is no real loyality as it is just the fact that you get isk from your client that makes you behave this way.
So it is only loyality towards your own personal greed.


If you think any corp has ever got rich of mercing alone you are sorely mistaken. The profession pays a pittance when you take into account the number of people.

And loyalty to our client is loyalty, just about the only loyalty a merc should have

Quote:
Imo, the main difference between pirates and mercs is that pirates are honest about what they do while mercs pretend to be something more then simple killers.


Actually your completely wrong. Pirates are the simple killers, they do nothing but kill/ransom people. Professional mercs on the other hand go in with a job to do and set objectives.

Quote:
In EVE mercs are badly needed as they enrich the game, it is even an all player driven profession so probs to MC and a select few other doing it so classy. In RL, mercs are scum.


If we acted like scum we wouldnt be where we are today

Serenity Steele
Caldari
Dynamic Data Distribution
Posted - 2006.09.07 14:30:00 - [77]
 

IMHO A useful service, and honourable.

That said, there are far fewer corps/alliances within EvE that are true mercinaries, than those that claim to be.


Tarri
Caldari
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2006.09.07 15:51:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Eyeshadow

If we acted like scum we wouldnt be where we are today


I did not say you acted like scum, I said you act with class.Very Happy

The loyality to your client is a questionable loyality as it is a loyality bought with isk.
My opinion still stands, pirates are in my opinion more honourable then mercs because they normally have a code of honour which they respect. And that code/loyality to the code is not bought with isk.
But then again that is only my opinion, I allow you to have your ownWink

Talthrus
Caldari
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2006.09.07 18:43:00 - [79]
 

It doesn't mean that we done have a code of honor just because we are hired for ISK. Most of the mercs I have met ingame are very upstanding and just in general great people. I can't see how you think senseless ganking is equal to any sort of honor among pirates ...

Waagaa Ktlehr
Amarr
GeoCorp.
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.09.07 18:44:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Tarri
My opinion still stands, pirates are in my opinion more honourable then mercs because they normally have a code of honour which they respect. And that code/loyality to the code is not bought with isk.


So ehm... What does one buy by paying the "ransom"?

Crovan
Gallente
The Praxis Initiative
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2006.09.07 18:44:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Crovan on 07/09/2006 18:54:24
Originally by: Tarri
Originally by: Eyeshadow

If we acted like scum we wouldnt be where we are today


I did not say you acted like scum, I said you act with class.Very Happy

The loyality to your client is a questionable loyality as it is a loyality bought with isk.
My opinion still stands, pirates are in my opinion more honourable then mercs because they normally have a code of honour which they respect. And that code/loyality to the code is not bought with isk.
But then again that is only my opinion, I allow you to have your ownWink


Ok, something is seriously borked with the forums.

Aaaanyway.

I am confused by your statements. MC acts with class, but, as mercs, our loyalty is questionable because of the means by which it is acquired? The strength of loyalty is not contingent upon how it is obtained, but on the conviction of the individual or group expected to remain loyal. I don't see any reason why a purchased loyalty should be any less secure than a "free" (TANSTAAFL!) loyalty, that is to say, one not bought with money. In fact, since our bread and butter is the fact that people know they can count on our loyalty, and we must maintain that standard to stay in business, I posit that a merc's loyalty can be firmer than a political ally's, so long as you can afford to keep writing the checks.

Your opinon falls flat on lack of evidence, tbh. Pirates with a Jack Sparrow or Malcom Reynolds type code of honor are hard to come by in this game, possibly even more rare than mercs worth the money. Codes of honor worth having would frown upon bubble camping and slaughtering everything that comes by, or sniping haulers from 200+km in lowsec. I don't doubt that there are "honorable" pirates out there, but they are definitely not the norm. Your error lies in overgeneralization of two groups, one getting less credit than it should, and one getting more, based off of behavioural trends that I have seen.

Also, I'm with Waagaa. What is a ransom but a payment in return for temporary loyalty? I always considered the pirates who would keep to a ransom to be the more honorable ones, yet their loyalty is purchased with ISK, just like a mercenary's. So, if I assume that you are correct and a merc's loyalty (and one might extrapolate his/her honor) is worth less due to the fact that it is purchased, then a pirate, whom you claim is honorable, is in fact equally in question. Reductio ad absurdrum strikes again!

Krisala Torin
Amarr
Hedion University
Posted - 2006.09.07 18:45:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Krisala Torin on 07/09/2006 18:45:09
Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr
Originally by: Tarri
My opinion still stands, pirates are in my opinion more honourable then mercs because they normally have a code of honour which they respect. And that code/loyality to the code is not bought with isk.


So ehm... What does one buy by paying the "ransom"?


That does it, I am deleting this alt.

Tarri
Caldari
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2006.09.07 19:06:00 - [83]
 

What´s borked with forums, Crovan?

I was comparing the ideal pirate to the ideal merc, and came to my conclusion. You came to yours, what´s wrong with that?

Crovan
Gallente
The Praxis Initiative
Sodalitas XX
Posted - 2006.09.07 19:19:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Tarri
What´s borked with forums, Crovan?

I was comparing the ideal pirate to the ideal merc, and came to my conclusion. You came to yours, what´s wrong with that?


Silly stuff is wrong like it not wanting to accept my default character, as well as not posting, then double posting with the wrong character, instead, etc.

What is wrong with comparing ideals? In this situation, plenty is. First, you should have stated that to begin with if you expect the rest of us to follow along :). Second, debating ideals, any potential difficulties with either side can be written off. The ideal merc will never deviate from his bought loyalty, so what does it matter if it is bought? The ideal pirate will Robin Hood his way through the galaxy saving damsels between the ransoming of robber-barons (and I don't mean missions ;))

Nothing is wrong to coming to opinions. I just think that your opinion is incorrect, and have provided reasons why it is contradictory. Does the ideal pirate not ransom? How does he make his money? If he does ransom, then his temporarily purchased loyalty is as faulty as you say a merc's is, thus either purchased loyalty is good for something, or pirates are no more honorable then mercs. Either of those refutes your claim.

Tarri
Caldari
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2006.09.07 19:38:00 - [85]
 

Yep, forums are strange at times. Like having to log in like 3 times before posting...

You are right, comparing ideals is kind of senseless. Also is the ideal merc and pirate different for everyone. A pirate can be be a gentleman like Francis Drake or a simple criminal. A merc can help those without arms defend themself against oppressors or be the tool of the rich to subdue the weak and poor.
So in the end it also depends on what contract a merc corporation accepts and what not, and how professional they work, if you want to tell if they are "knights in shiny armors", "businessmen" or simply "gankers".

Draximus Cane
Minmatar
Infestation.
The Church.
Posted - 2006.09.08 01:40:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Kaleeb
Yep and people also forget mercenary frigates/cruisers and mercenary forces who have been around a long time


We were not the first Mercs (although I was in Merc frigs from the fiorst week), but I believe we were the first "true" mercs as others before were genenerly not nuetrul and or pirated

Firane
Caldari
Nothing Personal Inc
White Noise.
Posted - 2006.09.08 01:46:00 - [87]
 

Personally I don't think you can compare BE with MC.

Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.09.08 03:18:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 08/09/2006 03:19:30

"True Mercs" ? What a joke.

Merceneries who kill random people when not on assignment are no less Merceneries than you who do not.
As long as they honor their contracts and wishes of their Employers, they're no different.

I wonder how many mercenery corporations out there make up fake contracts when they want to have an excuse to go after someone they haven't been hired to kill ?

I'd guess 95%, including the MC, the ones that pirate would actually be less likely to lie about something like that, and thus more "True Mercs" in my book than the ones that don't pirate. Razz

Rodge
Caldari
Rodgenet
Posted - 2006.09.08 07:58:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Mitchman
Originally by: Rodge

Got a lot of respect for guys like the MC who've stuck to it way before anyone even thought about it as a viable career.



It seems to be a common misconception that MC was first. Cult of Cthulhu (RIP) was hired approximately the 2nd week of the game, and fought in Fountain and Venal for their employers.



I've always known about CoC. When KIA went merc, we held CoC as the benchmark of conduct. But I thought you had left the mercing profession (/emote also recalls your last video) so didn't include you in what I said.

Originally by: Kaleeb
Yep and people also forget mercenary frigates/cruisers and mercenary forces who have been around a long time

MF left a contract because they were bored and wanted to shoot more neutrels(Celestial Horizon vs VOTF, as I recall). I wouldn't consider them real mercs anymore.

Stamm
Amarr
RHC
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.09.08 08:20:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk
Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 08/09/2006 03:19:30

"True Mercs" ? What a joke.

Merceneries who kill random people when not on assignment are no less Merceneries than you who do not.
As long as they honor their contracts and wishes of their Employers, they're no different.

I wonder how many mercenery corporations out there make up fake contracts when they want to have an excuse to go after someone they haven't been hired to kill ?

I'd guess 95%, including the MC, the ones that pirate would actually be less likely to lie about something like that, and thus more "True Mercs" in my book than the ones that don't pirate. Razz


It's impossible to tell though, only the mercs themselves know.

Maybe when the CEOs retire from Eve they'll write their memoirs and drop a bombshell :P


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