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blankseplocked Should Training Time be Decreased?
 
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Kari Awn
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.09.04 15:23:00 - [61]
 

No, skill times are just fine.
Geeze!Rolling Eyes

Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction
The Firm.
Posted - 2006.09.04 15:27:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Lazuran
Originally by: Cmdr Sy
To fully enjoy EVE, everyone must have piloted a capital ship, because it is there to be piloted? Meh.

Yep.

I just can't agree with this bit.

This is not how I view the game. One of the things I love about it, is that everyone has to be different, have different specialities, professions, experiences. Some people will train alts or buy characters for ISK to get around this, and I know of a few people who went off to the test server more or less permanently, to play with stuff they were too disorganised and impatient to acquire themselves.

I simply do not believe this game should accomodate everyone's desire to be the Hero, to have the Sword and the Damsel with Female Armour II, at no cost. This is a cog in a machine game, not a legend.

Flitz Farseeker
Farseeker Entertprises
Posted - 2006.09.04 15:27:00 - [63]
 

I've only been here a month or so and have just over half a million skill points. I can fly any T1 gallente frigate or cruiser and up to lvl 2 industrials. My gunnery skills aren't half bad and I'm working through the learning skills. However, my mining and production skills suck big-time and I don't plan on flying a BS any time in the near future. I'm having plenty of fun and looking forward to what the future will bring. If I could do it all already, I'd get bored and move on. Learning rate is just fine.

lofty29
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.09.04 15:33:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: lofty29 on 04/09/2006 20:19:24
Originally by: Lazuran
- to be an all-round effective PVPer, you will have to be able to use a T2 fitted BS. This takes almost a year for most races (Exception: Caldari).

- Carriers and Dreads also take about a year to train for and then you'll still suck at everything else


1 - Not true. I pvp frequently in battlecrusiers / cruisers, and they do it just fine. HAC's die to a well fitted BC.

2 - Once you can fly a dread, you can almost use a t2 fitted BS as well. Once you can fly a thanatos, you're about 20 days off of having a full skilled ogre II dom. HF Wink

Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.09.04 15:49:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake

I prefer the opposite argument.

If you let people fly everything in the game after three months, why should they keep playing after that when there's nothing new to aim for?


3 months is too short, agreed. But your argument is unreasonable. People want to play/do things in order to achieve something and make progress and not simply wait. There more you do without having the feeling of making progress in relation to your actions, the less the feeling of achievement will be. This is demotivating.

Also, I really don't think that the long-term interest in EVE lies in increasing your skillpoints, it should be the game itself that keeps you interested.

I believe that the feeling that your character's progress is grinding to a halt at some point is one of the main reasons why the average player lasts only for 7 months.

Cattraknoff
Caldari
Dead Pilots Society
Chaos Theory Alliance
Posted - 2006.09.04 15:52:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Cattraknoff on 04/09/2006 15:52:27
Originally by: RedLion
Originally by: Cattraknoff

Well, I didn't really want those things, honestly we don't need the entire game focused around grinding, too many games are like that....Lets not make this a game where only 12 years olds with no lives outside of the game can compete. We all know the world has enough MMO's like that. Rolling Eyes

Well, it don't have to become hard core grind, if they had limited the gains. For example 500k SP each month or so.

It's just that some of us "new" ones really want to progress.


I wouldn't object to paying a bit of isk for LIMITED use speedup of skill training. Just as long as it can't be used often.

EDIT: Actually I think boosters are supposed to do something along these lines.

Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.09.04 15:53:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: lofty29

1 - Not true. I pvp frequently in battlecrusiers / cruisers, and they do it just fine. HAC's die to a well fitted BC.



They do fine, but they can't handle many different PVP situations, they will die against a BS almost every time (1v1 at least). This is what I meant buy "all-rounder".

Quote:

2 - Once you can fly a dread, you can almost use a t2 fitted BS as well. Once you can fly a domi, you're about 20 days off of having a full skilled ogre II dom. HF Wink


I disagree. You can fly a Domi without any or with minimal drone skills, but a "full skilled ogre II domi" takes another couple of million SP (think drone interfacing 5, heavy drone 5, specialization, ...), that's more like 2-3 months.

Chewan Mesa
Resurrection
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2006.09.04 15:54:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 04/09/2006 15:55:50
Originally by: Lazuran
Originally by: Rodj Blake

I prefer the opposite argument.

If you let people fly everything in the game after three months, why should they keep playing after that when there's nothing new to aim for?


3 months is too short, agreed. But your argument is unreasonable. People want to play/do things in order to achieve something and make progress and not simply wait. There more you do without having the feeling of making progress in relation to your actions, the less the feeling of achievement will be. This is demotivating.

Also, I really don't think that the long-term interest in EVE lies in increasing your skillpoints, it should be the game itself that keeps you interested.

I believe that the feeling that your character's progress is grinding to a halt at some point is one of the main reasons why the average player lasts only for 7 months.



It doesnt come to a halt, and the great thing in eve is that exactly as you say, you can freely enjoy the game WHILE your training/grinding is done.

Its not like you have to stop doing something fun just because you are training for a carrier or dreadnought.

If you are so into having fun playing the actual game and not watching your SP increase, I dont see the slightest problem with the time it takes to train for certain things.

Just enjoy the game while waiting for the skills to finish.

A decreased feeling of achievement doesnt derive from waiting a long time to be able to fly a carrier, it would be caused by only waiting a few months for it.

Kharriga
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.09.04 15:57:00 - [69]
 

no


eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Posted - 2006.09.04 16:06:00 - [70]
 

no.

however i wouldn't be opposed to seeing "elite learning skills" introduced, so long as:
they cost 1b each
they are same rank as advanced
they are somewhat rare (not available in empire or something) - leaked to us from the jovians.

mechtech
SRS Industries
SRS.
Posted - 2006.09.04 16:37:00 - [71]
 

you might have an arguement, but change it now, and 1/2 of eve will leave (maybe more).

how are the 30+ mil sp people biased? they have played hard for 3 years, and don't want to see the work go to waste. The new uber asian characters were a good boost to noobs, ccp can't do anything more without losing part of their community.

DukDodgerz
Amarr
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.09.04 17:49:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: mechtech
you might have an arguement, but change it now, and 1/2 of eve will leave (maybe more).

how are the 30+ mil sp people biased? they have played hard for 3 years, and don't want to see the work go to waste. The new uber asian characters were a good boost to noobs, ccp can't do anything more without losing part of their community.


while i have reservations as to making all skills training faster without it costing the player, you argue players would quit because training times became shorter, due to feeling they wasted time....sorry thats got to be the worst logic I have seen on this thread.


players would not quit because that WOULD BE WASTING THEIR TIME of the last 3 years
players would train new skills they hadn't bothered with before, but it should have a cost involved (as i suggested, or another method)

Are you one of the types that picks up your ball in the middle of a game because you are not winning and go home pouting??Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes



NeOnicuS
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.09.04 17:56:00 - [73]
 

Theres already stuff out there to decrease trainign times. Learning skills, and implants.


Estelle Matsuko
Caldari
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.09.04 18:12:00 - [74]
 

2 mill sp here. Having a blast. Training time is fine. It weeds out the l33t kiddies who just HAVE to be UBER rtf now, and go off in high dudgeon if they canīt be.

Set a skill, forget about it till it flashes you and just play the damned game.




Eilie
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.09.04 18:35:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Lazuran
to be an all-round effective PVPer, you will have to be able to use a T2 fitted BS. This takes almost a year for most races (Exception: Caldari)


I see that you already lost EVE. I have almost 30mil SP and can't fly a T2-fitted BS nor do I want to and I still have lots of fun! YARRRR!!

Based on your comments about Caldari being easier to train (when missiles suck for fleet battles) and the fact you think you need a T2-fitted BS to PvP, I would assume that you've never even been to 0.0 and are just some empire carebear who is waiting until you have maxed all PvP skills before you enter 0.0 ugh

Sorja
11th Division
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2006.09.04 19:01:00 - [76]
 

@ original poster: yes, definately.

CCP designed a game were to get to the endgame you'd need x monthes.

The, they introduced truckloads of new skills and yet they didn't adapt the learning curve.
Which means it is definately harder to get the endgame for a newcomer since x monthes is now several times x monthes.

My carrier is in the oven, so I could be as selfish as most people here and be happy to have it so much easier than new players, but that's the opposite of a PvP game IMHO where only your skills matter, not the time you spent ingame.

But hey, even Oveur still thinks there's no difference between a player with a skill at 5 and another with the same skill at 4, forgetting on the way that said player will have loads of skills to 5 and the player with skills at 4 won't stand a chance at all.

Cattraknoff
Caldari
Dead Pilots Society
Chaos Theory Alliance
Posted - 2006.09.04 19:16:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Sorja
@ original poster: yes, definately.

CCP designed a game were to get to the endgame you'd need x monthes.

The, they introduced truckloads of new skills and yet they didn't adapt the learning curve.
Which means it is definately harder to get the endgame for a newcomer since x monthes is now several times x monthes.

My carrier is in the oven, so I could be as selfish as most people here and be happy to have it so much easier than new players, but that's the opposite of a PvP game IMHO where only your skills matter, not the time you spent ingame.

But hey, even Oveur still thinks there's no difference between a player with a skill at 5 and another with the same skill at 4, forgetting on the way that said player will have loads of skills to 5 and the player with skills at 4 won't stand a chance at all.


There isn't meant to be an endgame.

Neesa Corrinne
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2006.09.04 20:13:00 - [78]
 

Skill training times are just fine. There's no sense of accomplishment like waiting a month for a skill to train and then getting to use it for the first time. It feels great.

What I DO think should be changed is the ability to remove skills and recover skillpoints. Before I decided what I really wanted to do in this game I trained a bunch of mining skills, and now I just want those points back to put somewhere else.

I will never mine again and I would love to use those skillpoints somewhere else.

Cattraknoff
Caldari
Dead Pilots Society
Chaos Theory Alliance
Posted - 2006.09.04 20:16:00 - [79]
 

Maybe getting 50% recovery on a skill you "untrain" wouldn't be much of a RP justification for it, though.

lofty29
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.09.04 20:19:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Lazuran
Originally by: lofty29

1 - Not true. I pvp frequently in battlecrusiers / cruisers, and they do it just fine. HAC's die to a well fitted BC.



They do fine, but they can't handle many different PVP situations, they will die against a BS almost every time (1v1 at least). This is what I meant buy "all-rounder".

Quote:

2 - Once you can fly a dread, you can almost use a t2 fitted BS as well. Once you can fly a domi, you're about 20 days off of having a full skilled ogre II dom. HF Wink


I disagree. You can fly a Domi without any or with minimal drone skills, but a "full skilled ogre II domi" takes another couple of million SP (think drone interfacing 5, heavy drone 5, specialization, ...), that's more like 2-3 months.



I meant a carrier Smile

Minikrimi Extreme
Zephyr Manufacturing Group
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2006.09.04 20:58:00 - [81]
 

It seems to me that most of this is a misunderstanding of the time frame involved in Eve.

To get a lot of the high end stuff we are talking a couple years commitment. This is not a game where a few months "entitles" you to anything.

The people flying capital ships-- how long have they been in the game? Definitely not 230 days.

The thing with Eve is that it is NOT like every other MMO out there. Yes, you can pick up the basic skills to fly a Dread in 230 days (is that even a real number or just a random made up one that is repeated?). But you still haven't EARNED it. A Dread or Carrier is a fleet vehicle when used properly. You need fuel, you need a cyno field spotter to move it. So to really earn a Dreadnaught or Carrier you need to earn the respect of an organization to support the ship.

I guess you can use it solo to run missions, though if that is going on I would seriously request that just moving on impulse for any length of time should have a fuel cost just to make this harder. Consider the context of Eve, of course someone who uses them in missions has little respect for the game world. Sigh.

But even then, the point is that yes it DOES take a year to get into them. Yes, it DOES require sacrificing other career tracks to use them as quickly as possible. That is the point of them. There is no "right" to all of the game content. There is basic stuff, then there is elite stuff. And you have to earn the elite stuff, you have to win the right to use it. That is the point to it. You put in your time, you network, you work your ass off, and you get your capital ship.

You can do anything, but you can't do everything.

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2006.09.04 21:06:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: RedLion
Originally by: Cattraknoff
Edited by: Cattraknoff on 04/09/2006 13:59:19
Lets not give agent *****s even more advantages, please.

edit: (directed at redlion)


O.O, what you mean?

It's up to people how they want to play the game. So please don't call people who are trying to play the game in a not abusive way, names.

Thanks



You're trying to suggest something that only agent *****s would be able to use. In a game that is made for player interaction, adding something with massive bonuses, to an NPC thing, is a horrible idea due to that alone.

Lo3d3R
Mos Eisley Social Club
Posted - 2006.09.04 21:06:00 - [83]
 

YES, to damn long, CCP likes isk sinks (good for economy) so let us get our capital ships blown up plz. (the prices for the skills are good though)

Isyel
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.09.04 21:11:00 - [84]
 

Why do people have so many problems with the skills? Just have fun.

I'm a little more than 8 months in game, 7.5mil sp (learning skills been done very far apart from eachother) and been training minmatar ships all along. I recently went gallente to get their BSs (don't like the matari ones) and yes, i have less SP. Do i feel disadvantaged? Sure, people specialised in it way before me, they have all the right to have more experience than me in them. Do i feel it should change? Heck no, i'm liking it as it is. Very Happy *puts gallente BS4 to train*

It's all a matter of mindset. I like the skill training, it is what makes eve Special, and truth be told, noone should fly carriers etc. easily. Let them put effort into it, they specialise in them and are weaker on other fronts. Shorten training time and in time you will have "uber vets". Chars that cannot be beaten if the player has skills simply because they are perfect in everything. Now THAT would kill Eve.

Hippo117
Caldari
Wings of Redemption
Black Flag Alliance
Posted - 2006.09.04 21:12:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Hippo117 on 04/09/2006 21:28:50
Originally by: Lazuran

This takes almost a year for most races (Exception: Caldari).




Excuse me? So i've spent the last year of my ingame time doing what exactly? Because by your comment I sure as hell couldnt have been training anything related to T2 mods because I had those when i was on the 14 day trial. STFU and go suck one.


Edited because 2T mods are no fun to fly with.

Isyel
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.09.04 21:16:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Isyel on 04/09/2006 21:16:59
Originally by: Lazuran

This takes almost a year for most races (Exception: Caldari).



EveMON, my Gallente training.

Gal BS 4, large blaster spec 4, some other skills to help greatly... 3 months. No implants.

Huh? Don't tell me that's not half decent to fly one.Wink

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
Posted - 2006.09.04 21:24:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: Gariuys on 04/09/2006 21:25:13
You'd have a point if this was a grind game, but it's not, just set the training and play the game. Only need lvl 1 to do that, everything else is getting better at something.

And all-round pvper needs t2 fitted BS, only if you like those damn blobs. And I certainly don't.

Carriers and dreads are highly specialized ships, definetly not ships that are a goal to set for yourself, not that any ship is anything beyond being a tool.

Remember people flying over alts to my homebase cause I was one of the first to be able to fly and own a deimos. That feeling off flying something special is worth a helluvalot more then getting in it fast. Cause and that's the deal with most of EVE it's on special when it takes time, and effort and can be lost... true achievement and dedication.

if you want quick fixes play guild wars.

Edit: It's like saying on the L2 boards that lvl 78 shouldn't take 200 hours ( that's just lvl 78 FYI ) of straight grinding. It's how the game was designed, and people love it. Cause by god hitting 78 is something truly special.

Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.09.04 22:37:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Gariuys

Edit: It's like saying on the L2 boards that lvl 78 shouldn't take 200 hours ( that's just lvl 78 FYI ) of straight grinding. It's how the game was designed, and people love it. Cause by god hitting 78 is something truly special.


No, it's not, because in EVE it doesn't matter how much or how well you play, you just have to wait. No amount of grinding is going to help, so if you set yourself a goal that requires 6 months of training, you can just as well stop playing and log on only to switch skills.


Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.09.04 22:38:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Neesa Corrinne

What I DO think should be changed is the ability to remove skills and recover skillpoints. Before I decided what I really wanted to do in this game I trained a bunch of mining skills, and now I just want those points back to put somewhere else.



That's a great idea actually. I'd like to get rid of all those (now) useless SP in Science ...


DefJam101
Gallente
Monolithic.
Advocated Destruction
Posted - 2006.09.04 23:34:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Lazuran
One of my gripes with EVE is that there are so many timesink skills that are required in order to be effective at anything with long-term interest:

- to be an all-round effective PVPer, you will have to be able to use a T2 fitted BS. This takes almost a year for most races (Exception: Caldari).




This is where you are in every single way 110% completely wrong...
I am 2 months old and I can 1on1 most any cruisers in a fair fight or with odds tilted aginst me slightly.
I can take down BSs in a gang of people, and I can have a hell of a lot of fun doing so.
This is in both Low-sec and 0.0 btw, I consider myself a "well rounded PvPer"
I don't have tons of EVE experience, nor skillpoints.
Stop running missions and go do, something, ANYTHING. Your corrupting the economy and making new players get a bad impression of EVE


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