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Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:35:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Cmdr Sy
Originally by: Lazuran
What do you think, should training be faster? Answers from people with 30m+ SP aren't interesting, they're biased. ;-)

Biased how? We did the grind and came out on the other side. I don't see how people who have yet to experience the benefits, can perform an objective assessment.



Biased because you have almost nothing to gain from this proposal, but your SP will be worth less time than you put into it.

Quote:

1) You do NOT need a T2-fitted BS to be an effective PVPer. It's all attitude.



Yes you do and it's not vanity that most PVPers go for it, many FC even require it, with a few exceptions (Dominix for example).

Quote:

2) Capital ships go with an earned rank and a particular job description. It is never going to be an issue for most people who play EVE. Just because it's in the game, doesn't mean you need to use it. Doesn't mean you are missing out on a must-feel experience. Forget about them.



Wrong, carriers are even effective solo ships for mission runners and ships for the industrial backbone of a corp. If it's in the game, it should be accessible in a reasonable way to people who want to use it or they will look for unreasonable ways (e.g. buying high SP characters).

Games are about experiencing things and having fun. If you can't experience a game to its full extent, you won't enjoy it fully. Unless of course you're the kind of guy who feels like he doesn't deserve it.

Quote:

3) Mining V, Astrogeology IV, Caldari Cruiser IV, and 3m to buy, fit and insure an Osprey. As investments in the industry profession go, this one is rock bottom cheapest.



You're the pro. ;-) I'm sure this is a miner's dream ship, the perfectly satisfying experience for someone who likes to look at big roids all day.

Quote:

Training does not need to be faster, what needs to change is newcomers' impression that to be useful, they need to be flying the most expensive and hard to use kit. Truth is, the first PVP corp that hires them is going to put them into a frig or cruiser with cheap fitting. Employing people with attitudes to the contrary only leads to unnecessary losses.


I'm not talking about such alleged misconceptions. The issue here is that once you have the experience and your preferences for further training, for many players, there will come a point where progress (skill-wise) seems to be disappointingly slow even though there is a lot left to explore and there's nothing they can do about it.

Cattraknoff
Caldari
Dead Pilots Society
Chaos Theory Alliance
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:36:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: RedLion
Originally by: Cattraknoff
blahblah.... why not for every pod I pop?


I never said you couldn't. Are you really this stupid, or are you just trolling these forums?

Answer:
Because your rewards should come from something. Maybe rats or players could drop some insignias that could be turned in to gain SP?


Well, I didn't really want those things, honestly we don't need the entire game focused around grinding, too many games are like that....Lets not make this a game where only 12 years olds with no lives outside of the game can compete. We all know the world has enough MMO's like that. Rolling Eyes

Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:36:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Lazuran

I don't have a problem with specialization, but all those interdependent skills force you to specialize in things you don't even want to. For example, for T2 large projectiles, you need small/medium specialization as well, even if you never use it. For Interdictors, you need Interceptors (only L4 fortunately, a rare exception).


In that I agree with you. Back when the different sizes of t2 guns came in there were a number of threads with people making the same case.
I still don't agree with or understand why the training for large t2 guns and similar have such pre-requisits. However increasing training time will not "fix" the issue there, at best it will blanket it over while screwing up everything else.

Originally by: Lazuran

As for carriers, if you look at a minimal set of timesink skills to use one including basic modules (that's something like 230 days without implants), then you will still have no EW skills whatsoever, no T2 ship skills, no gunnery worth mentioning etc. - that is what I mean by "sucking at everything else".


Well you are talking about going from a new player aiming straight for a capital ship and ignoring everything in between so the example is a little skewed and ultimatly that's a fault with the players approach to training than a flaw with Eve's training times.

DukDodgerz
Amarr
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:38:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Lazuran
Originally by: RedLion
Well, buy implants, get learning skills Twisted Evil

No, but I don't think it's fair to nerf the training time of skills. But getting some sort of rewards from agent, where you could spend loyalty points on skill points. For example buy 50k skill points for 15k loyalty points. Or it could come as an reward for the important missions.

CCP shouldn't, and is probably not even concidering, offering skill points for ISK. Don't know about EVE, but I have played WoW. And the chinese is making good money because people buy so much gold to get personal gains. If there should be some economy involved, the training has to be limited.


Interesting idea. As for the SP for ISK - this is already happening, as you can see, many people are offering or buying high SP characters for ISK just because they can't be bothered to wait so many months for skills they need.




AGREED, if they introduced a "Neural interface acceleration trainer", that worked only once per level you are training and was then discarded, cost a good amount, and it cut the level of training in half, many would take advantage of it and thus create yet another isk sink for the game.


now a 'good amount' is subjective, but remember it only works one time...thus you have to buy another to get the next level trained faster.

"5 mil" X "levels needed" X "skill books required" = players either make the isk needed to take advantage or they are not going to advance as fast as others but will have more isk to spend on other things...

works like an implant as far as clones
advances training for only one level then ejects
causes noobs to choose training speed vs saving up isk

for advanced ships, make an advanced accelerater skill for them...cost more, has same effect...and only the vets would need it, so they should be able to afford it, cost 10 mil each level... just a thought to expand on the original.



Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:39:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Wild Rho

Well you are talking about going from a new player aiming straight for a capital ship and ignoring everything in between so the example is a little skewed and ultimatly that's a fault with the players approach to training than a flaw with Eve's training times.


Right, noone will go straight to a capital ship (unless he's a specially trained alt on a second account, also not uncommon these days), which means that they don't only take ~230 days to reach, but much longer (more like 18 months), because people will be training many other things left and right.


Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:41:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: DukDodgerz

AGREED, if they introduced a "Neural interface acceleration trainer", that worked only once per level you are training and was then discarded, cost a good amount, and it cut the level of training in half, many would take advantage of it and thus create yet another isk sink for the game.



Good for CCP, very bad for the game ...

All I'd be asking instead would be to remove a few L5 skill prerequisites for some of the better parts of the game. L4 is enough for frigates=>cruiser, why not for BS/Advances Spaceship Command=>Carrier?

DukDodgerz
Amarr
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:42:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Cattraknoff
Originally by: RedLion
Originally by: Cattraknoff
blahblah.... why not for every pod I pop?


I never said you couldn't. Are you really this stupid, or are you just trolling these forums?

Answer:
Because your rewards should come from something. Maybe rats or players could drop some insignias that could be turned in to gain SP?


Well, I didn't really want those things, honestly we don't need the entire game focused around grinding, too many games are like that....Lets not make this a game where only 12 years olds with no lives outside of the game can compete. We all know the world has enough MMO's like that. Rolling Eyes


you mean all the exploit users grief players and gankers are not already 12 year olds without a life already?

if they are the example of adults playing the game then there are deeper issues to be looked at...



Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:48:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Lazuran

Right, noone will go straight to a capital ship (unless he's a specially trained alt on a second account, also not uncommon these days), which means that they don't only take ~230 days to reach, but much longer (more like 18 months), because people will be training many other things left and right.



Correct, becuase how is this new player going to afford the ship, skills and mods when he is training directly for a capital ship?
To be honest it seems like you've decided a new player should be able to go from a rookie ship into a capital ship in a short time without having to take all the necessary steps in between without really thinking about it.
It's a case of you wanting the way the game works changed to suit your style of play.

Chewan Mesa
Resurrection
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:50:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 04/09/2006 14:51:58
Originally by: Lazuran
One of my gripes with EVE is that there are so many timesink skills that are required in order to be effective at anything with long-term interest:

- to be an all-round effective PVPer, you will have to be able to use a T2 fitted BS. This takes almost a year for most races (Exception: Caldari).





You dont know how wrong you are. You dont need a BS at all to be decent in PvP. So please stop posting suggestions out of ignorance.

Training times are fine, otherwise we'd all quit after 6 months cause we could fly everything.

Anyway are you an alt, cause if not I dont get where you take the experience from knowing you'd need a Tech II Fitted BS for pvp.

I'll take you on every time in your tech II BS in another ship.

Verus Potestas
Caldari
SP4RTANS
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:51:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: DukDodgerz
you mean all the exploit users grief players and gankers are not already 12 year olds without a life already?

if they are the example of adults playing the game then there are deeper issues to be looked at...
I can't speak for exploiters (that's your area of expertise, at least with freighter logoffs, right?), but I have pirated a lot with a lot of different people, and I am usually the only one on a TS or vent server who is not yet out of school (I'm about to start the final year of school in Britain, the upper sixth).

I think there are deeper issues, and here are examples:

  • Your inability to accept a gameplay other than your own to be anything but the product of diseased minds.

  • Your inability to accept that actions in game are not a reflection on real life

  • Your fear of associating your beliefs with your main, and the requisite insecurity

  • Lazuran
    Gallente
    Aliastra
    Posted - 2006.09.04 14:56:00 - [41]
     

    Originally by: Wild Rho

    Correct, becuase how is this new player going to afford the ship, skills and mods when he is training directly for a capital ship?



    The same way he is going to afford it after 18 months: by playing more or finding better ways to earn isk.

    Quote:

    To be honest it seems like you've decided a new player should be able to go from a rookie ship into a capital ship in a short time without having to take all the necessary steps in between without really thinking about it.
    It's a case of you wanting the way the game works changed to suit your style of play.


    What are the necessary steps in between in your opinion? How is the training time beneficial? He could just go AFK and train for months, how will he be a better player then?

    As for my style of play: I simply play a lot and therefore don't see myself making a lot of progress. I can afford capital ships and am an experienced player (since I play far too much), but the prospect of training 4-5 months just to be able to use a carrier (after having played for 3 years on and off) is not very appealing, it makes me want to stop playing for a few months (again). I'm not sure that this is what the Devs had in mind when they set the prerequisites.


    Uuve Savisaalo
    Rage and Terror
    Against ALL Authorities
    Posted - 2006.09.04 14:59:00 - [42]
     

    does everyone and their mum need a carrier or a dreadnought?

    kindly make sense.


    Chewan Mesa
    Resurrection
    Gentlemen's Club
    Posted - 2006.09.04 14:59:00 - [43]
     

    He is going to buy the ship, undock and do something stupid to lose it, as he is unexperienced.

    The training-time to get ships is there for people to gain experience.

    Being able to fly a tech II fitted BS does NOT make you a good pvper.

    Thats why you recognize an ebay from 20 systems away.

    Lazuran
    Gallente
    Aliastra
    Posted - 2006.09.04 15:00:00 - [44]
     

    Originally by: Chewan Mesa
    Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 04/09/2006 14:51:58
    Originally by: Lazuran
    One of my gripes with EVE is that there are so many timesink skills that are required in order to be effective at anything with long-term interest:

    - to be an all-round effective PVPer, you will have to be able to use a T2 fitted BS. This takes almost a year for most races (Exception: Caldari).





    You dont know how wrong you are. You dont need a BS at all to be decent in PvP. So please stop posting suggestions out of ignorance.




    Ignorance is also not reading properly:

    b]to be an all-round effective PVPer,[/b] is what I wrote.

    Quote:

    Training times are fine, otherwise we'd all quit after 6 months cause we could fly everything.



    Perhaps you would leave, I would stay and fly all these ships (and would rather leave as it is now because it gets boring to wait for all those skills).

    Quote:

    Anyway are you an alt, cause if not I dont get where you take the experience from knowing you'd need a Tech II Fitted BS for pvp.



    What does that have to do with anything? I have 3 chars like most people, this is my oldest one (look at my corp history when I'm on, yes, I've been in a major alliance with this one), my second oldest is in RISE and I use him most of the time.

    Quote:

    I'll take you on every time in your tech II BS in another ship.



    Go smack somewhere else, you immature ****.

    Rodj Blake
    Amarr
    PIE Inc.
    Posted - 2006.09.04 15:01:00 - [45]
     

    Edited by: Rodj Blake on 04/09/2006 15:00:56
    Originally by: Uuve Savisaalo
    does everyone and their mum need a carrier or a dreadnought?

    kindly make sense.




    Mums don't need carriers and dreadnoughts - they need motherships instead Very Happy

    Chewan Mesa
    Resurrection
    Gentlemen's Club
    Posted - 2006.09.04 15:02:00 - [46]
     

    Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 04/09/2006 15:03:51
    I love those people calling everyone that arguments against their point a smacker...very matture of you.

    And I read properly, an allrounder doesnt need a tech II BS.

    PS: Your char is from 7th 2006, hence I think its a valid question what qualifies you to know if a tech II BS is needed or not.

    If you have had FCs that ask for that as a req, they dont know the full potential of tech I fittings.

    Waio Valerius
    Posted - 2006.09.04 15:03:00 - [47]
     

    I think training time should be decreased. Make the players feel they are getting somewhere, and are not stuck.

    Most people never play an MMORPG for more than a year, and many quit before that long. Would be good to have a 1 year old character and still feel you are getting somewhere, and not having to wait months for a teeny weeny improvement to your skills.

    Cmdr Sy
    Appetite 4 Destruction
    The Firm.
    Posted - 2006.09.04 15:03:00 - [48]
     

    Originally by: Lazuran
    *snip*

    There is more to PVP than flying T2 fitted BS. No-one starts there. Many excellent PVPers choose not to go there. If a newish player genuinely sees himself doing 1v1, small group skirmish or fleet in BS, then there is no point in training the skills faster than acquiring the experience necessary to use them properly. If someone really wants to fly in an elite corp with T2 BS as an entry requirement, then they must accept the fact that such gratification will not be instantly granted. Nor even within weeks.

    To fully enjoy EVE, everyone must have piloted a capital ship, because it is there to be piloted? Meh. Someone may enjoy doing L4s in a carrier more than in a BS or Command Ship, someone may enjoy jumping their capital ship out of 0.0 with a cargo hold full of goodies more than taking the longer journey in a blockade runner. That does not mean that everyone is entitled to one, quickly, so that they may sample the experience.

    Yes, the higher-end skills take longer to train. You really want cloaking devices to train as quickly as electronics, and so on, so everyone gets to play with everything? No thanks.

    The thing which makes most other MMOs so game-breakingly absurd is that everyone gets to be The One, everyone gets to yank the Sword of Excalibur out of a rock (and then never lose it). This game is rough, in that you can't have everything, and the ever-expanding skill tree guarantees you never will. A world of infinite possibility, where you choose a path and walk it. I think you will find most people here prefer EVE on masochist mode, precisely because their last one didn't have it.

    Lazuran
    Gallente
    Aliastra
    Posted - 2006.09.04 15:04:00 - [49]
     

    Originally by: Chewan Mesa
    He is going to buy the ship, undock and do something stupid to lose it, as he is unexperienced.

    The training-time to get ships is there for people to gain experience.

    Being able to fly a tech II fitted BS does NOT make you a good pvper.



    You manage to contradict yourself in 3 lines. Training-time for skills has nothing to do with experience, as you can see from those "ebayers".

    So how is the skill requirement helping at all in gaining the necessary experience? You can play 1000 hours in 3 months or in 3 years, you will have the same experience but a huge difference in skill points.

    Lucre
    STK Scientific
    Black-Out
    Posted - 2006.09.04 15:04:00 - [50]
     

    Originally by: Lazuran
    - Industry/Mining: I haven't calculated the times here, since I don't think that any of these are of long-term interest on their own, at least not for a significant number of players.



    Absolutely. No significant number of long-term industrialists or miners in Eve, are there?

    ROFL

    Very HappyVery Happy

    RedLion
    Caldari
    State Constructions
    Posted - 2006.09.04 15:08:00 - [51]
     

    Originally by: Cattraknoff

    Well, I didn't really want those things, honestly we don't need the entire game focused around grinding, too many games are like that....Lets not make this a game where only 12 years olds with no lives outside of the game can compete. We all know the world has enough MMO's like that. Rolling Eyes

    Well, it don't have to become hard core grind, if they had limited the gains. For example 500k SP each month or so.

    It's just that some of us "new" ones really want to progress.

    Chewan Mesa
    Resurrection
    Gentlemen's Club
    Posted - 2006.09.04 15:09:00 - [52]
     

    Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 04/09/2006 15:10:25
    Originally by: Lazuran
    Originally by: Chewan Mesa
    He is going to buy the ship, undock and do something stupid to lose it, as he is unexperienced.

    The training-time to get ships is there for people to gain experience.

    Being able to fly a tech II fitted BS does NOT make you a good pvper.



    You manage to contradict yourself in 3 lines. Training-time for skills has nothing to do with experience, as you can see from those "ebayers".

    So how is the skill requirement helping at all in gaining the necessary experience? You can play 1000 hours in 3 months or in 3 years, you will have the same experience but a huge difference in skill points.




    I dont contradict myself at all.

    Ill explain it again for you.

    1st. You do not need a tech II fitted BS to be good at PvP.

    2nd. If someone only trained his character for 2 years and did that without actually playing, then came back, fitted his Mega with tech II mods and guns and fought, he'd still lose players with way less skillpoints but more actual experience. (This is the same as buying your char off of ebay that has a dreadnought)

    3rd. The year or more you spend to train for something is useful in the terms that you gain PLAYER SKILL in that time due to fighting in Frigs/Cruisers, Fleets, Small gangs etc and learn about gamemechanics.

    DukDodgerz
    Amarr
    Doomheim
    Posted - 2006.09.04 15:09:00 - [53]
     

    Originally by: Verus Potestas
    Originally by: DukDodgerz
    you mean all the exploit users grief players and gankers are not already 12 year olds without a life already?

    if they are the example of adults playing the game then there are deeper issues to be looked at...
    I can't speak for exploiters (that's your area of expertise, at least with freighter logoffs, right?), but I have pirated a lot with a lot of different people, and I am usually the only one on a TS or vent server who is not yet out of school (I'm about to start the final year of school in Britain, the upper sixth).

    I think there are deeper issues, and here are examples:

  • Your inability to accept a gameplay other than your own to be anything but the product of diseased minds.

  • Your inability to accept that actions in game are not a reflection on real life

  • Your fear of associating your beliefs with your main, and the requisite insecurity




  • well well well
    you can't win with lies there little kid

    I can't fly frieghters (never even wanted one), so you assumed a lot, then lie or make up the rest to assert your opinion as the right one, and insult me...yaaaa right.

    When you grow up, let us know.

    PS:your assumbtions are sooooo off base, they are obvious trolling.

    Hopefuly part of your 6th grade education will teach you something, like how to notice sarcasm ....Rolling Eyes



    Lazuran
    Gallente
    Aliastra
    Posted - 2006.09.04 15:12:00 - [54]
     

    Originally by: Cmdr Sy

    There is more to PVP than flying T2 fitted BS.



    I never disputed that, but it is something most highly active PVPers will want to be able to do. It was just an example for timesink skills in general though.


    Quote:

    To fully enjoy EVE, everyone must have piloted a capital ship, because it is there to be piloted? Meh.



    Yep.

    Quote:
    so everyone gets to play with everything? No thanks.



    Everyone already gets to play with everything, he just has to buy a high SP character with ISK. That is the reality, most highly active players have many accounts for this purpose. Is that how it is supposed to be?

    Quote:

    This game is rough, in that you can't have everything, and the ever-expanding skill tree guarantees you never will.



    See above.

    Quote:

    A world of infinite possibility, where you choose a path and walk it. I think you will find most people here prefer EVE on masochist mode, precisely because their last one didn't have it.


    Very broad statement there. Certainly not true for me and not true for all the people who run multiple accounts, as far as I can tell, the majority of capship pilots (not only because of how cynos work)...


    Moghydin
    Silver Snake Enterprise
    Against ALL Authorities
    Posted - 2006.09.04 15:15:00 - [55]
     

    To the OP: How about NO.
    You can be effective in PvP even without bs and even without a single T2 item. Lets not deflate a sence of achievement when you finally have that capital ship skill, or you are ready to fly a HAC. I see no reason, why someone had to learn certain skill for a month a year ago, and now you should be able to complete it in a week. I don't think we want a game where after 6 months you should be able to fly anything you like.

    Rangkai
    Posted - 2006.09.04 15:16:00 - [56]
     

    Sure there are plenty of times when I wish some long skills would train faster, but one thing I like about eve is that all the skills will ensure I always have something new to play with for years to come.

    However, at some point I think it would be nice if they released another set of learning skills into the game.

    Lazuran
    Gallente
    Aliastra
    Posted - 2006.09.04 15:18:00 - [57]
     

    Edited by: Lazuran on 04/09/2006 15:20:07
    Originally by: Chewan Mesa

    PS: Your char is from 7th 2006, hence I think its a valid question what qualifies you to know if a tech II BS is needed or not.



    Lazuran is my first char and his birth date is 2003.05.15. Ask CCP why whatever method you tried to determine his birth date doesn't work correctly. Perhaps you tried his employment history, but in the early days this got reworked and many characters don't have entries from then.

    Quote:

    If you have had FCs that ask for that as a req, they dont know the full potential of tech I fittings.


    You tell them, but who are you?


    Rodj Blake
    Amarr
    PIE Inc.
    Posted - 2006.09.04 15:19:00 - [58]
     

    Originally by: Waio Valerius
    I think training time should be decreased. Make the players feel they are getting somewhere, and are not stuck.

    Most people never play an MMORPG for more than a year, and many quit before that long. Would be good to have a 1 year old character and still feel you are getting somewhere, and not having to wait months for a teeny weeny improvement to your skills.


    I prefer the opposite argument.

    If you let people fly everything in the game after three months, why should they keep playing after that when there's nothing new to aim for?

    Chewan Mesa
    Resurrection
    Gentlemen's Club
    Posted - 2006.09.04 15:21:00 - [59]
     

    Originally by: Lazuran
    Originally by: Chewan Mesa

    PS: Your char is from 7th 2006, hence I think its a valid question what qualifies you to know if a tech II BS is needed or not.



    Lazuran is my first char and his birth date is 2003.05.15. Ask CCP why whatever method you tried to determine his birth date doesn't work correctly. Perhaps you tried his employment history, but in the early days this got reworked any many people don't have entries from then.

    Quote:

    If you have had FCs that ask for that as a req, they dont know the full potential of tech I fittings.


    You tell them, but who are you?




    I was in fights enough to know you dont need a tech II BS, I dont care if you dont believe it, honestly...but its a fact.

    Uuve Savisaalo
    Rage and Terror
    Against ALL Authorities
    Posted - 2006.09.04 15:23:00 - [60]
     

    come on, people. you're talking about training time being increased because not everyone has played from the beginning - have you even noticed how much faster training has gotten since then? What, with implants, and jump clones and advanced learning skills? Really, **** off already


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