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Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.09.04 13:51:00 - [1]
 

One of my gripes with EVE is that there are so many timesink skills that are required in order to be effective at anything with long-term interest:

- to be an all-round effective PVPer, you will have to be able to use a T2 fitted BS. This takes almost a year for most races (Exception: Caldari).

- Carriers and Dreads also take about a year to train for and then you'll still suck at everything else

- Industry/Mining: I haven't calculated the times here, since I don't think that any of these are of long-term interest on their own, at least not for a significant number of players.

For most of the active players, these timesink skills will be demotivating at some point when they realize that e.g. they need another 5-6 months to train for a Carrier even though they could afford one now and put it to good use already, while there are no intermediate steps that give you a significant improvement (except drone skills perhaps, if you use them a lot).

What do you think, should training be faster? Answers from people with 30m+ SP aren't interesting, they're biased ;-).


Admai Sket
Posted - 2006.09.04 13:53:00 - [2]
 

'x16' skills just sound rediculous to me - level 5 on one of those must be a few MONTHS, surely?


Verus Potestas
Caldari
SP4RTANS
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2006.09.04 13:53:00 - [3]
 

No.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.09.04 13:54:00 - [4]
 

Training times are fine as they are.

And the views of people who have lots of SPs are probably less biased than those without, as they've actually experienced what it's like.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2006.09.04 13:54:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Crumplecorn on 04/09/2006 13:54:10
I've been a week away from training battleships for weeks, was never inclined to finish it, still won't for a while, though I could afford a BS now.
All in its own good time or whatever.
Don't see why that view would change later on.

Hellspawn01
Amarr
Posted - 2006.09.04 13:54:00 - [6]
 

The training is long to make sure that young chars are not capable of flying them cuz they loose them too fast. It doesnt take that long if you specialize in your race.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.09.04 13:55:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Admai Sket
'x16' skills just sound rediculous to me - level 5 on one of those must be a few MONTHS, surely?




Around two months to go from 4 to 5 for most characters, I'd say.


Tammarr
Posted - 2006.09.04 13:55:00 - [8]
 

Investment of time into eve means you will be rewarded. Lose some t1/named bs's during that year before you go into your full one year training time t2 gear bird :-)

RedLion
Caldari
State Constructions
Posted - 2006.09.04 13:57:00 - [9]
 

Well, buy implants, get learning skills Twisted Evil

No, but I don't think it's fair to nerf the training time of skills. But getting some sort of rewards from agent, where you could spend loyalty points on skill points. For example buy 50k skill points for 15k loyalty points. Or it could come as an reward for the important missions.

CCP shouldn't, and is probably not even concidering, offering skill points for ISK. Don't know about EVE, but I have played WoW. And the chinese is making good money because people buy so much gold to get personal gains. If there should be some economy involved, the training has to be limited.

Verus Potestas
Caldari
SP4RTANS
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2006.09.04 13:58:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Admai Sket
'x16' skills just sound rediculous to me - level 5 on one of those must be a few MONTHS, surely?

Around two months to go from 4 to 5 for most characters, I'd say.

You mean it takes a couple of months to get titan to 5? OH HELL NO! WE'LL NEVER MANAGE!

Cattraknoff
Caldari
Dead Pilots Society
Chaos Theory Alliance
Posted - 2006.09.04 13:59:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Cattraknoff on 04/09/2006 13:59:19
Lets not give agent *****s even more advantages, please.

edit: (directed at redlion)

Phantom Speedrunner
Posted - 2006.09.04 13:59:00 - [12]
 

it would be good to see the basic skills over time depreciate in value. As this game gets older the difference between the new and old players will probably become a disincetive to play. Maybe if 10 core skills got their train times halved (0.5 multiplier) so that new players catch up a little faster. Next year maybe reduce another 10 skills and so on. It would benefit vets/pros (anyone who maybe hadnt focused on a branch eg industry )

EVE never seems to have any sort of bonuses you see in other games like EQ2 etc. How about promotional weeks with double speed training (for all players). Would it hurt them to do this once or twice a year ? Damm CCP you must celebrate something , throw us a bone here.

Cattraknoff
Caldari
Dead Pilots Society
Chaos Theory Alliance
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:01:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Phantom Speedrunner
it would be good to see the basic skills over time depreciate in value. As this game gets older the difference between the new and old players will probably become a disincetive to play. Maybe if 10 core skills got their train times halved (0.5 multiplier) so that new players catch up a little faster. Next year maybe reduce another 10 skills and so on. It would benefit vets/pros (anyone who maybe hadnt focused on a branch eg industry )

EVE never seems to have any sort of bonuses you see in other games like EQ2 etc. How about promotional weeks with double speed training (for all players). Would it hurt them to do this once or twice a year ? Damm CCP you must celebrate something , throw us a bone here.


specialization is the key, after a few months of training in your desired ship, you can do it as well as any of us can (in 95% of cases, dont expect a titan that early)

Older players are just able to fly more things, not that we can fly everything better, if you specialize in what you enjoy most, you should be able to beat us in that ship (unless you're inept or something)

Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:01:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: RedLion
Well, buy implants, get learning skills Twisted Evil

No, but I don't think it's fair to nerf the training time of skills. But getting some sort of rewards from agent, where you could spend loyalty points on skill points. For example buy 50k skill points for 15k loyalty points. Or it could come as an reward for the important missions.

CCP shouldn't, and is probably not even concidering, offering skill points for ISK. Don't know about EVE, but I have played WoW. And the chinese is making good money because people buy so much gold to get personal gains. If there should be some economy involved, the training has to be limited.


Interesting idea. As for the SP for ISK - this is already happening, as you can see, many people are offering or buying high SP characters for ISK just because they can't be bothered to wait so many months for skills they need.


RedLion
Caldari
State Constructions
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:03:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Cattraknoff
Edited by: Cattraknoff on 04/09/2006 13:59:19
Lets not give agent *****s even more advantages, please.

edit: (directed at redlion)


O.O, what you mean?

It's up to people how they want to play the game. So please don't call people who are trying to play the game in a not abusive way, names.

Thanks

Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:04:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Lazuran

- to be an all-round effective PVPer, you will have to be able to use a T2 fitted BS. This takes almost a year for most races (Exception: Caldari).



No you don't. I've been pvping for nearly 3 years solid and I have only ever flown frigs. The few times I have flown battleships they have been with tech 1 guns and I've been fine.
Brains > skill points.

Originally by: Lazuran

- Carriers and Dreads also take about a year to train for and then you'll still suck at everything else


Welcome to specialisation. Also the skill training that goes into capital ships is very similar to so you won't "suck at everything else".

Originally by: Lazuran

- Industry/Mining: I haven't calculated the times here, since I don't think that any of these are of long-term interest on their own, at least not for a significant number of players.


Training to be decent at industrial stuff takes no time at all. Training to be "uber" at industrial stuff will take longer, again, welcome to specialisation.

Originally by: Lazuran

For most of the active players, these timesink skills will be demotivating at some point when they realize that e.g. they need another 5-6 months to train for a Carrier even though they could afford one now and put it to good use already, while there are no intermediate steps that give you a significant improvement (except drone skills perhaps, if you use them a lot).


Thanks to eve bigger is not better so don't assume everyone wants to fly a capital ship.
In any case as they stand capital ships are very role specific in combat where as the more regular ships are used constantly and you can be effective in one specific class of ships in a very short time.

Originally by: Lazuran

What do you think, should training be faster? Answers from people with 30m+ SP aren't interesting, they're biased ;-).


Answers from people with less than 30mil sp aren't interesting, they're biased as well then.

RedLion
Caldari
State Constructions
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:04:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Lazuran
Interesting idea. As for the SP for ISK - this is already happening, as you can see, many people are offering or buying high SP characters for ISK just because they can't be bothered to wait so many months for skills they need.


yeah sorry, didn't think of it. Then maybe iskbuying of skills isn't a such bad idea.

Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:04:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Cattraknoff
if you specialize in what you enjoy most, you should be able to beat us in that ship (unless you're inept or something)


First of all, it takes ages to even try enough things to find out what you like most (e.g. Carrier ...). While I agree that someone can have a single favourite ship for PVP that he uses most of the time, it's just too monotonous to fly only that and never anything else. It gets boring and it's not satisfying and it also limits the flexibility of corps when they need to use particular fleet setups.

RedLion
Caldari
State Constructions
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:09:00 - [19]
 

Another idea would be to buy SP from CCP for real cash :)

Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:12:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Wild Rho

Welcome to specialisation. Also the skill training that goes into capital ships is very similar to so you won't "suck at everything else".



I don't have a problem with specialization, but all those interdependent skills force you to specialize in things you don't even want to. For example, for T2 large projectiles, you need small/medium specialization as well, even if you never use it. For Interdictors, you need Interceptors (only L4 fortunately, a rare exception).

As for carriers, if you look at a minimal set of timesink skills to use one including basic modules (that's something like 230 days without implants), then you will still have no EW skills whatsoever, no T2 ship skills, no gunnery worth mentioning etc. - that is what I mean by "sucking at everything else".

nahtoh
Caldari
Brotherhood of The Saltire
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:12:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Phantom Speedrunner
it would be good to see the basic skills over time depreciate in value. As this game gets older the difference between the new and old players will probably become a disincetive to play. Maybe if 10 core skills got their train times halved (0.5 multiplier) so that new players catch up a little faster. Next year maybe reduce another 10 skills and so on. It would benefit vets/pros (anyone who maybe hadnt focused on a branch eg industry )

EVE never seems to have any sort of bonuses you see in other games like EQ2 etc. How about promotional weeks with double speed training (for all players). Would it hurt them to do this once or twice a year ? Damm CCP you must celebrate something , throw us a bone here.


Ummm how about no?

Games like EQ2 require you to have more than one character due to class choices made at character creation...Eve does not, The only thing that it requires is time to pass (and in game isk).

Hell you can even gain SPs when your account is inactive.

I don't see the need for 2 month boosts to certian skills and it would increase the cookie cutter skill chasing/ship fittings. Plus their are ways in game to increase your SP rate already that you can chose to use or not at your own rate.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:14:00 - [22]
 


I think its pretty good as it is... its good that players flying capital ships have several years experience of the game.

Yes, the training is boring, but only if you dont play the game while you wait for the training.

St Dragon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:15:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Lazuran
One of my gripes with EVE is that there are so many timesink skills that are required in order to be effective at anything with long-term interest:

- to be an all-round effective PVPer, you will have to be able to use a T2 fitted BS. This takes almost a year for most races (Exception: Caldari). Actually it takes just as long if you want to be good with caldari as you need to train the sub skills in missiles and shield operation.

- Carriers and Dreads also take about a year to train for and then you'll still suck at everything else

So this is a good thing you know capital ships are the elites ship.

- Industry/Mining: I haven't calculated the times here, since I don't think that any of these are of long-term interest on their own, at least not for a significant number of players.

Actually industry and mining is very popular.


What do you think, should training be faster? Answers from people with 30m+ SP aren't interesting, they're biased ;-).

Actually people with that many sp are the most unbiased as they have already been there already. i have 10 mil sp btw.



Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction
The Firm.
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:15:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Lazuran
What do you think, should training be faster? Answers from people with 30m+ SP aren't interesting, they're biased. ;-)

Biased how? We did the grind and came out on the other side. I don't see how people who have yet to experience the benefits, can perform an objective assessment.

Let's clear up a few misconceptions...

1) You do NOT need a T2-fitted BS to be an effective PVPer. It's all attitude. I am not naming names, but I have fought alongside people who got as many kills in a T2-fitted T1 cruiser, as people who flew a T2-fitted BS. It's all about attitude - theirs was often better. Over 30m SP here, flew in a few PVP corps and alliances, and I can't fly a T2-fitted BS. I would rather have an experienced Thorax pilot in my gang, than a T2-fitted BS pilot who is "learning the ropes". For one thing, there is less whining afterwards.

2) Capital ships go with an earned rank and a particular job description. It is never going to be an issue for most people who play EVE. Just because it's in the game, doesn't mean you need to use it. Doesn't mean you are missing out on a must-feel experience. Forget about them.

3) Mining V, Astrogeology IV, Caldari Cruiser IV, and 3m to buy, fit and insure an Osprey. As investments in the industry profession go, this one is rock bottom cheapest.

Training does not need to be faster, what needs to change is newcomers' impression that to be useful, they need to be flying the most expensive and hard to use kit. Truth is, the first PVP corp that hires them is going to put them into a frig or cruiser with cheap fitting. Employing people with attitudes to the contrary only leads to unnecessary losses.

Benco97
Gallente
Terraprobe Dynamics
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:15:00 - [25]
 

It doesn't need changing, it's fine as it is

Cattraknoff
Caldari
Dead Pilots Society
Chaos Theory Alliance
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:16:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: RedLion
Originally by: Cattraknoff
Edited by: Cattraknoff on 04/09/2006 13:59:19
Lets not give agent *****s even more advantages, please.

edit: (directed at redlion)


O.O, what you mean?

It's up to people how they want to play the game. So please don't call people who are trying to play the game in a not abusive way, names.

Thanks


Meh, isn't really considered abusive by many people....

Anyway, giving SPs as rewards is too big of an advantage. If they do that, I Should get SPs for npcing, mining, or complex whoring, hell, why not for every pod I pop?

Laythun
Viziam
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:19:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: RedLion
Well, buy implants, get learning skills Twisted Evil

No, but I don't think it's fair to nerf the training time of skills. But getting some sort of rewards from agent, where you could spend loyalty points on skill points. For example buy 50k skill points for 15k loyalty points. Or it could come as an reward for the important missions.

CCP shouldn't, and is probably not even concidering, offering skill points for ISK. Don't know about EVE, but I have played WoW. And the chinese is making good money because people buy so much gold to get personal gains. If there should be some economy involved, the training has to be limited.


Woah there little buddy.

I nominate this comment for worst most stupid idea ever.

Grinding level 4's for skillpoints...??

Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:20:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Hellspawn01
The training is long to make sure that young chars are not capable of flying them cuz they loose them too fast. It doesnt take that long if you specialize in your race.


SP have nothing to do with experience, since training is independent of playing time. Also, many people buy high SP characters these days, so if what you wrote was ever a concern or reason behind long training times, it doesn't work.


RedLion
Caldari
State Constructions
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:26:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Cattraknoff
blahblah.... why not for every pod I pop?


I never said you couldn't. Are you really this stupid, or are you just trolling these forums?

Answer:
Because your rewards should come from something. Maybe rats or players could drop some insignias that could be turned in to gain SP?

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.09.04 14:27:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Phantom Speedrunner
it would be good to see the basic skills over time depreciate in value. As this game gets older the difference between the new and old players will probably become a disincetive to play. Maybe if 10 core skills got their train times halved (0.5 multiplier) so that new players catch up a little faster. Next year maybe reduce another 10 skills and so on. It would benefit vets/pros (anyone who maybe hadnt focused on a branch eg industry )

EVE never seems to have any sort of bonuses you see in other games like EQ2 etc. How about promotional weeks with double speed training (for all players). Would it hurt them to do this once or twice a year ? Damm CCP you must celebrate something , throw us a bone here.


Old players already improve their skills at a slower rate.

I've only gained two skill levels in the last two months.


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