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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.08.16 00:55:00 - [31]
 

Laser damage type is far from being the real "amarr issue". Amarr just got 2 main issues - lack of med slots for ECM and crappy natural resist to ECM. The most successful battleships in game are the ones that can fit most ECM - Raven, Tempest, Dominix.
If it was up to me, I'd make Amarr the strongest anti-ECM race while Caldari being the weekest. That would balance things out, since Caldari would have best ECM offense with weakest ECM defense while Amarr would have best ECM defense with weakest ECM offense.

As far as smaller ships go, Amarr seems to be ok

Currrent state of ECM is probably the reason Amarr bs aren't popular in pvp

Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.08.16 00:55:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: inSpirAcy

At the moment the main argument is that EVE in its present state heavily favours armor tanked PvP, mainly due to the EW imbalances. Amarrians may have an advantage against shield tanked ships, but when they're primarily going up against armor tankers the argument is moot. This is a point raised earlier in the thread, that fixing the root of these problems - EW, mostly - is a better solution than fixing the symptoms (that EM currently sucks as a primary damage).


Don't pick up some whiner's argument and put it forward as mine.



EM as priamry DMG type , SO what ? Galalnet have thermal , mini have expl , caldari have kinetic , thats how the races are set . EM does most dmg on shield , lasers have highest base dmg on shields but less on armour !! I aint puttign words in ur mouth or pickign winning arguments i am stating my point of view and what i understand of what u say.

Basic dmg on shields for expl dmg is 60% just like EM is 60% on armour so mini pilots who use Expl dmg as primary should complain also wotn u agree???

As for mega havign 0 EM% and its shield gettign eaten asap by lasers then slower on armour , what exactly is ur point on fitting invul fields fit ?? shield tank a mega in addtion to armour also or am i gettign this wrong ?

Bardi MecAuldnis
Amarr
Sp00t
Posted - 2006.08.16 01:28:00 - [33]
 

I'm exclusively an Amarr frig pilot, I plan to branch out eventually, but for now, I'm all Amarr and all frig. Someone mentioned the Malediction and Crusader. I want someone to tell me a situation in which either of these would be preferred over the Crow, Taranis, or Claw. A corpmate of mine and I started playing within one day of each other. Our learning skills are identical. Our gunnery skills are almost identical (mine are slightly better because he trained mediums a bit). Our drone skills are identical. He has slightly better nav skills. I have more missile skills. He can pirate solo in his interceptor. I must be a part of a gang (even then, I'm more of an extra annoyance to the prey). The difference?

Me = Amarr
He = Gallente

Taranis > Crusader + Malediction

We sparred once. Taranis vs Malediction. I was hitting him constantly from the begining of the battle. Neither of us were webbed. My lasers didn't miss once, nor did my rockets. The only thing hitting me were his drones. He told me he'd engage his web. I engaged mine first, the damage didn't change. I never pierced his shields (untanked inty taking em/thermal damage?). He engaged his web, and I was in a pod two cycles later. He had no intention of destroying my ship. His damage output was so ridiculous, that he ripped me from 90% shields to pod in six seconds. It happened so quickly that his tactical display reported me as being at 50% armor when my pod warped away. It wasn't until he noticed my can there that he realized I was gone.

I will admit, I'd have to add the Punisher to the list of good t1 ships.

Sooooo what's our count at?

Auryn Darkblade
Caldari
Black whole legion
Posted - 2006.08.16 01:37:00 - [34]
 

I am also atm completly amarr + frig, the intys are pretty sad atm, but the retribution is pretty nice for pve...not that it means much

Bardi MecAuldnis
Amarr
Sp00t
Posted - 2006.08.16 01:49:00 - [35]
 

Yeah, I also use my AF for PvE...

Too bad I'm trying to gear up for PvP.

It's a good thing my Vengeance God-tanks against the Angel Cartel, or I'd have no isk at all.

Aww, I just made myself sad.

Parallax Error
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.16 02:07:00 - [36]
 

The *only* current problems with Amarr ships are this:

1) Since the 2 x EANM2 and 1DC tank became better than a 3 x hardener tank for all round resists, Amarr damage has approximately dropped by a third versus a good proportion of most normally encountered setups in PvP. Thats a hefty hit. This is compounded by a more distant change which moved crystal damage to having proportionally more EM damage, especially in the longer ranges.

2) Khanid ships have no real flavour to them, I think a much better general line for them would be the armour tanking and missile using ships.

If tanking got relooked at slightly so that the 3 specific hardener tank was slightly better for overall resists (taking into account it uses more cap) then the Amarr problem would pretty much dissapear. And i'd love to see armour tanking missile ships for the Khanid.

Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2006.08.16 02:08:00 - [37]
 

There is no amarr 'issue' especially not the ones the OP suggests. In the same way i think there is no specific minmatar issues other than some ship stats on the likes of the rupture & varients so I equally ignore the 'Minmatar' thread as well as the points raised there are simply asking for boosts way beyond the current state which is extremely well balanced with only certain combinations of ships & weapon being more effective in certain scenarios than others but that is natural.

regarding the taranis vs crusader, yeh both these intys are popular and you can see why and yes in a slug fight against each other the taranis will win typically. But then taranis have been popular from the time they were made as range is almost never a problem with one. But thats because blasters have always been the best at close range and inties can dictate range or ignore it easily.

My own personal opinions is hybrids are a little too powerful overall in the extremes of range moreso (close and long) but thats my feeling across the whole board of different strategies and setups Ive seen but its not really a big issue atm.

You cant just make a whine thread and expect change. You have to back it up with real data and informed opinion.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2006.08.16 02:10:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: korrey
If I hear another anti-amarr-complain from a non amarr soec'd player I think ill puke. And if you do use amarr then im sure your an "excellent" pvp'r.


I fly Amarr, and I'm an excellent pvper. Seems like your whole argument just hit a brick wall.

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
i'm assuming that by "'zap zap zap' mode of play" you mean our lack of versatility when it comes to dealing damage.

in that case your above statement is actually not entirely true.


No that is not what I mean. I was referring to the Amarr combat philosophy of directness, not anything to do with damage types. In other words their ships will win a fight because they can either outgun you or out-tank you, not pull fancy trickery.



Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.08.16 02:29:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: korrey

If I hear another anti-amarr-complain from a non amarr soec'd player I think ill puke. And if you do use amarr then im sure your an "excellent" pvp'r. Rolling Eyes

Next...Amarr.
Digitalcommunis. Tell me what 0.0 system to meet in and ill gladly come and own any amarr ship you have with a minmatar one. Why? Because your exp. resis sucks.




I fly amarr Too and they are fine the way they are.

Exp resist sucks ?? Amarr ships VS minmatar one ?? What exactly your trying to prove here ??? Amarr ships are weak on exp arm resist 10%and have 60% em resist , same as minmatar and gallnt and caldari just like all races have 0% em on shields and 60% expl with exception to T2 ships. Amarr eats shield fast , minmatar eat arm fast its balanced.

This is not WOW or Diablo where ur supposed to have a ship thats l333t and owns anything it engages.


I fly amarr Too and they are fine the way they are.

Exp resist sucks ?? Amarr ships VS minmatar one ?? What exactly your trying to prove here ??? Amarr ships are weak on exp arm resist 10%and have 60% em resist , same as minmatar and gallnt and caldari just like all races have 0% em on shields and 60% expl with exception to T2 ships. Amarr eats shield fast , minmatar eat arm fast its balanced.

This is not WOW or Diablo where ur supposed to have a ship thats l333t and owns anything it engages.

Commander Thrawn
M. Corp
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.08.16 02:29:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 16/08/2006 02:32:34
Originally by: Naughty Boy
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 15/08/2006 23:30:42
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade
1. the 2nd amarr bonus is crap. 10% to make guns useable is not a bonus.
By the same logic, the rof + damage bonuses for minmatar ships are crap too, since they are what make minmatar ships usable. In fact, amarr have it better than minmatar or gallente as you can work around bad ship skills more easily.


the only two viable ships in pvp for amarr ships is the zealot and the geddon(not talking about our drones ships) and they both have rof bonuses. a rof bonus is awsome. its a dmg bonus meaning your actually getting a bonus. our bonus is a 50 less cap use(assuming level5) so we can actually fire our guns. not really a bonus imo

Originally by: Naughty Boy

Originally by: Auryn Darkblade
3. amarr have basically no capiblity of ew, so they need to be the hardest to jam.
Their weakness to EW is a good thing, since they have good damage and good tanks. What's broken however, on top of ECM, is the balance of low and mid slots and modules. With ECM balanced, mid/low slot layout on ships and mid/low slot modules balanced, shield tank would be seen more often, balancing the damage types. You want to adress the most obvious symptoms but the problem would stay, causing more problems on the way. .


wrong, we have bad dmg since everyone even caldary with the exeption of a few ships armor tanks, and armor tank = eamn2 with massive em resistance. with the state of EW, "as you mentioned" as it is even a raven will armor tank and fit its mid full of jammers. Regardless, the majority of ship still armor tank.
Now as per amarr having good tank. right now we have no better tanks that any other race. our supposed great tanking ship(apoc) has a bonus to cap in order to run its tank. Since everyone is using cap booster to counter nos, the cap really makes no difference. to a ship that can't do any dmg anyways and works better using projectiles than laser. so really the apoc has no bonuses

Originally by: Naughty Boy

Originally by: Auryn Darkblade
5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety.
You don't really see "specific" tanks anyway, unless fighting npc'ers, so it's a bit moot. You could complain about the armor resistances of the muninn, but probably not as much as minmatar pilots, so... o.-
.

your right everyone uses eanm2 tanks so everyone has 75-90% em resistance

Originally by: Auryn Darkblade
6. a amarr ship or any other ship should not be better with another races guns on it. example autocannons on maller and apoc.
I'm not sure about what you mean, autocannons are terrible without two damage bonuses (or rof + damage) so if it works, it's only because you have lot of turret hardpoints... which means that lasers are still ahead (accounting for my previous answers, of course). I'm not saying that the maller is awesome though.
NB.


he is right there are figure out there. atm do to eanm and the massive cap use of our gun, putting projectiles on amarr ships that do not have bonuses to dmg or rof if more effective

FraXy
0utbreak
Posted - 2006.08.16 02:39:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: FraXy on 16/08/2006 02:53:46
Not trying to get this into T2 stuff, but IMO Amarr got gimped with Damage Mod stacking nerf.

Especially Zealot, now it got more slots and don`t know what to do with them since fitting more then 3 HS II is a waste and it still does crappy damage even shooing conflagration.

Did the math a time ago and it was correct back then when i did it and i doubt things have changed.

Zealot Damage:

4x Focused Medium Pulse II, DPS only with (Conflagration) and [Scorch], Level 4 skills:
0 HS II = (227) - [168]
1 HS II = (279) - [207]
2 HS II = (321) - [238]
3 HS II = (363) - [270]
4 HS II = (407) - [302]

4x Heavy Pulse II, DPS only with (Conflagration) and [Scorch], Level 4 skills:
0 HS II = (263) - [195]
1 HS II = (323) - [240]
2 HS II = (372) - [276]
3 HS II = (420) - [312]
4 HS II = (471) - [349]

Zealot had 7 slots to pull a gankageddon which was damage mods up the wazoo which is now nerfed.

4 HS II and 4 Heavy Pulse II with 10km optimal doing 471 DPS seems good, but then u have used pretty much all grid and cpu to do so. I`m not saying that it`s totally gimped, but it has lost it`s nichè.

Now over to Sacrilege which is a flying piece of crap, allthough i love the look and the ship in general, but there is now a lot of other HACs/Recons that can tank way better then my poor Sacrilege :(

Tanking was it`s deal, now it can`t do anything..

The whole Khanid design are a piece of crap and the guy that made them must`ve been in a coma when designing..

Sacrilege will get outdamaged by a standard crusader and the tank which a Maller can do almost as good and for a lot cheaper.

Now we got Pilgrim and Curse which are indeed very nice ships, but i didn`t train Amarr Cruiser 5 and Heavy Assault level 4 for nothing.

oh and 90% of the armor tankers use 1-2 Adaptive Membrane II which is 69.6-74.95 EM resist if i have done my math correct.

And now let`s do Amarr T2 vs Minmatarr T2.

Zealot vs Muninn

Zealot dishing out 471 DPS (roughly 50-50 EM/Thm) vs 92.5 EM resist would make a Muninn take 240 DPS EM and 231 DPS Thermal which with base resist is 18 DPS EM (Yeah that`s right...) and 75 DPS Thm (Little better but consider no tank and if we change to Scorch we indeed might aswell throw rocks..)

Scorch is dealing 82% EM and 18% Thm:

349 DPS which 286 DPS is EM and 63 is Thm. Again vs base Muninn = 21.5 DPS EM and 20.5 DPS Thm is being dealt.

Medium Armor Repairer II = 320 HP every 9 seconds = 35.55 HP/sec regenerated. First setup would be receiving 57 DPS it cannot tank and second would be taking a CRUEL 6.45 DPS as damage...

6.45 DPS vs 2000 HP = 310 seconds to chew through. Yeah and we all know that Zealot got a tank that can take all sorts of punishment, no wait.. Oh yeah lasers just EAT capacitor for breakfast when they fire every 2.5 seconds for a gazillion capacitor.

Sorry about this rant, i do argumentage very badly and i know all races got some issues, but Amarr is the weakest ECM resist in general and their weapons can be made pretty damn useless with 1 tracking disruptor or 2.

Oh and the best tank argument is so far out the window it`s not even funny in these times... I`ll fly my Dominix anyday over the Apocalypse or Armageddon

Stephar
The High Priest
Posted - 2006.08.16 02:43:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Stephar on 16/08/2006 02:44:28
Edited by: Stephar on 16/08/2006 02:43:45
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
I fly Amarr, and I'm an excellent pvper. Seems like your whole argument just hit a brick wall.

http://www.killboard.net/?p=pilot&n=DigitalCommunist

Looks like you fly Gallente.

Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel
I fly amarr Too and they are fine the way they are.

http://www.killboard.net/?p=pilot&n=Yazoul%20Samaiel

And you appear to fly Caldari.

You guys might be fantastic at PvP, but you're not raking up the kills in Amarrian ships.

Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.08.16 02:52:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Stephar
Edited by: Stephar on 16/08/2006 02:44:28
Edited by: Stephar on 16/08/2006 02:43:45
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
I fly Amarr, and I'm an excellent pvper. Seems like your whole argument just hit a brick wall.

http://www.killboard.net/?p=pilot&n=DigitalCommunist

Looks like you fly Gallente.

Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel
I fly amarr Too and they are fine the way they are.

http://www.killboard.net/?p=pilot&n=Yazoul%20Samaiel

And you appear to fly Caldari.

You guys might be fantastic at PvP, but you're not raking up the kills in Amarrian ships.


OMG , i am soo busted , the words "My Second account" Mean anything to ya ????

Cleron
Posted - 2006.08.16 03:16:00 - [44]
 

The big issues with amarr are simple & easy to spot once you start flying them.

1. The bonus to laser weapons cap means you only get one bonus on every ship with it. Having a bonus to "USE" your racial weapons is like having a bonus on another ship to "use" a drone bay or "fit" a cap booster.

2. PG requirements on most lasers are quite frankly crazy. People often have to fit pulse lasers if they want to tank & if they need the range they simply have to lose the tank & even then its some times not enough to get a full fitting.

3. Cap usage. You might have a bonus to weapon cap but when you get to battleships you need every lvl in cap & bs as you can because the "monsters" people call lasers are like demons. A heavy neut blaster uses 18.2 energy a cycle while a tach uses 95. Even with lvl 5 in battleship you still require 2/2.5 times the cap to fire per cycle.

Granted Rails are worse, but lasers still require a lot more to fire per cycle. Because of this after you get over the problems with fitting you are faced with the problem of sustainable fire.... (at least on the Armageddon). Sadly this is why far more Amarr ships are using Ac & Arty. Easy to fit either long or short range set ups with no cap problems and an option of ammo damage type. They might suck damage wise, but for many it's better then what they had before & when people start thinking like that about lasers there has to be at least a few problems.

Foulis
Minmatar
Spartan Industrial Manufacturing
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.16 03:23:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: FraXy
*Blatant Stupidity*



Your arguement is made invalid by the fact that you were comparing it's damage against a ship specifically designed to tank ammar lasers.

Nebuli
Caldari
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.16 03:25:00 - [46]
 

Lots of people in our corp fly Amarr, and cant say I have ever heard them moan about them.

And may I say from seeing some of our guys in them, punishers rock, one chap took on two intys and poped them both in his punisher solo earlier for example, and the curse is also an awesome ship, geddon is also awesome, oh and for those using mega as an example of a drone ship and can pick damage type, geddon has the same drone bay.

What I find funny is before the EANM II came out your typical exp,therm,kinetic tank had EM as the lowest resist on shield and armour (this is also still a fairly common tank) while kinetic and thermal were pretty highly resisted on both shield and armour making hybrids pretty sucky, but you didnt see millions of "ZOMG GAL ARE TEH SUCZORS" posts.

Nothing wrong with Amarr as a whole, might be some ships need tweaking, but the same can be said of all of the races, they are all different, they all have strengths, they all have weaknesses, they all have sucky ships live with it, as others have said this isnt WoW, this is EVE online and everything isnt equal and there isnt an ub3r race or an ub3r ship or an ub3r set up that will beat everything else.

Also dont forget not every ship in EVE flys around with 3 EANM II or 2 EANM II and a DC on.

Double TaP
Flux Infinity Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.16 03:26:00 - [47]
 

I'l come back when this is around 30-40 pages, thats when i know its serious.

nahtoh
Caldari
Brotherhood of The Saltire
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2006.08.16 03:32:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Cleron
The big issues with amarr are simple & easy to spot once you start flying them.

1. The bonus to laser weapons cap means you only get one bonus on every ship with it. Having a bonus to "USE" your racial weapons is like having a bonus on another ship to "use" a drone bay or "fit" a cap booster.

2. PG requirements on most lasers are quite frankly crazy. People often have to fit pulse lasers if they want to tank & if they need the range they simply have to lose the tank & even then its some times not enough to get a full fitting.

3. Cap usage. You might have a bonus to weapon cap but when you get to battleships you need every lvl in cap & bs as you can because the "monsters" people call lasers are like demons. A heavy neut blaster uses 18.2 energy a cycle while a tach uses 95. Even with lvl 5 in battleship you still require 2/2.5 times the cap to fire per cycle.

Granted Rails are worse, but lasers still require a lot more to fire per cycle. Because of this after you get over the problems with fitting you are faced with the problem of sustainable fire.... (at least on the Armageddon). Sadly this is why far more Amarr ships are using Ac & Arty. Easy to fit either long or short range set ups with no cap problems and an option of ammo damage type. They might suck damage wise, but for many it's better then what they had before & when people start thinking like that about lasers there has to be at least a few problems.


Lower the cap use and and are you willing to lower the damage mod in return?

I have got to laugh when the Ammar pilots whine about thier damage type when remebering the MK2 thread...All the "why should I have to train another weapons system" whinne when the sac was up for disscussion...all the ammar pilots in sarmails khanid thread wanting armour tanking missilebouts also made me laugh a lot for teh same reason...

Cleron
Posted - 2006.08.16 03:40:00 - [49]
 

If the ships don't need to waste 1 bonus on weapons cap & i don't need to worrie about running out of cap just firing my bloody weapons then yes i am. After all chances are some ships could get a rof or damage bonus in replacment anyway.

It would still be nice to see the pg for beams lowered a bit & possible a slight increase in the mega pulse weapon range.

Talthrus
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2006.08.16 04:42:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: korrey
Edited by: korrey on 16/08/2006 00:24:52
Originally by: Pyxee
I hear the Zealot, Crusader, Malediction, Absolution, Damnation, Punisher, Arbitrator, Pilgrim/Curse, Prophecy and Armageddon are ****ty ships, can anyone confirm this?


Your mis-informed. Anyone who mentions that Amarr T2 ships are horrible deserve only the gallows. But T1 vs T1? Amarr will lose every time. The only VERY good T1 ships are the Pilgrim (with good skills) and the Armageddon which bonus's actually APPLY to something useful. The Apocs cap bonus is crap. Add a cap injector or CPR and your already doing better than the Apoc.




Since when was the Pilgrim T1? Shocked Do you mean the Arbi? Some Amarr ships are still quite good but the damage types are harder for Amarr pilots to utilize effectively than they are for other races.

Ecnav
Gallente
Unknown-Entity
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.16 05:01:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Ecnav on 16/08/2006 05:03:04
It's impossible for focused light to do kinetic and/or explosive damage. (unless you hit a minmatar ammo store or something)

Levin Cavil
Applied Eugenics
Posted - 2006.08.16 05:12:00 - [52]
 

Just do like everybody else and train Caldari.

Tel Bakhara
Posted - 2006.08.16 05:16:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Tel Bakhara on 16/08/2006 05:19:17
Edited by: Tel Bakhara on 16/08/2006 05:17:43
When u NPCing, u kill those of poor EM/Thermal DMG.
When U PvPing, your foe tend to have balanced DMG resis that dmg type make no sense.

Yes on random encounter if your foe know that you are Amarr ship u suk
But if u are in a frigate, if your foe know that you are frigate u also suk

Shall we reconsider all frigates then?

Mazer Kt'luthid
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.16 05:18:00 - [54]
 

Suggestion, what if all ships had their natural EM armor resistances lowered to about 45-50%. It'd still be higher than the natural thermal res, and Minnie T1 ships would have the extra flat 10% boost to their EM resistance, making it about 55-60%.

It would make EANMII tanks less effective at eliminating EM damage, and give back the Amarr's raw DPS superiority that they had prior to the armor resistance skills and the EANMII/DC tanking norm.

Tel Bakhara
Posted - 2006.08.16 05:21:00 - [55]
 

Hmm I guess this will make EM missles even more popolar

nahtoh
Caldari
Brotherhood of The Saltire
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2006.08.16 05:37:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Mazer Kt'luthid
Suggestion, what if all ships had their natural EM armor resistances lowered to about 45-50%. It'd still be higher than the natural thermal res, and Minnie T1 ships would have the extra flat 10% boost to their EM resistance, making it about 55-60%.

It would make EANMII tanks less effective at eliminating EM damage, and give back the Amarr's raw DPS superiority that they had prior to the armor resistance skills and the EANMII/DC tanking norm.


Fantasic idea...you missed the second part out mind you...increase base shield EM res to what ever amount you lowered the armour res by...Not touching the other ships that have a EM shiiled res...

Or how about GOOD GOD NO...

Serj Darek
Posted - 2006.08.16 05:39:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: DigitalCommunist

Just because you may find the whole 'zap zap zap' mode of play boring doesn't make it any less effective.


i'm assuming that by "'zap zap zap' mode of play" you mean our lack of versatility when it comes to dealing damage.

in that case your above statement is actually not entirely true.

being restricted in what you can throw at an enemy makes you predictable.
in the case of lasers it makes you predicatable and easy to counter.
(note: not talking about how you dont even need to spealize against laser damage to be tanked well against it.)

being easy to predict and counter does in turn make you "less effective" should you decide to fight against somewhat skilled/intelligent opponents.


seeing how your in charge of writing all those nifty little eon guides i thought you would actually know that much.




I think the real reason Amarr is so predictable is beacause they think they're so much better than everyone else! Religious fundamentalists cleansing lasers!
Wink

Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
Posted - 2006.08.16 07:12:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Naughty Boy on 18/08/2006 17:05:12
I knew it was a bad idea to get involved in this thread, but whatever...
Originally by: Commander Thrawn
the only two viable ships in pvp for amarr ships is the zealot and the geddon(not talking about our drones ships) and they both have rof bonuses. a rof bonus is awsome. its a dmg bonus meaning your actually getting a bonus. our bonus is a 50 less cap use(assuming level5) so we can actually fire our guns. not really a bonus imo
[shameless troll] the only viable ships in pvp for minmatar ships have rof + damage bonuses or a double damage bonuses. Despite it, our ships have amongst the lowest if not the lowest dps of their class. not really a bonus imo. (See how I just repeated myself).[/shameless troll]
Originally by: Commander Thrawn
wrong, we have bad dmg since everyone even caldary with the exeption of a few ships armor tanks, and armor tank = eamn2 with massive em resistance. with the state of EW, "as you mentioned" as it is even a raven will armor tank and fit its mid full of jammers. Regardless, the majority of ship still armor tank.
Now as per amarr having good tank. right now we have no better tanks that any other race. our supposed great tanking ship(apoc) has a bonus to cap in order to run its tank. Since everyone is using cap booster to counter nos, the cap really makes no difference. to a ship that can't do any dmg anyways and works better using projectiles than laser. so really the apoc has no bonuses.
That was my point exactly. You get one of the best damage "out of the box", and if it wasn't for ECM and EANM t2, you'd have one of the best damage types. So, whatever you say, your damage is not bad and doesn't need improvement at all. The core issues are different. (See how I just repeated myself again).
Originally by: Commander Thrawn
your right everyone uses eanm2 tanks so everyone has 75-90% em resistance
You guns have abnormal range, damage and tracking, and are one of the reasons why people hate shield tanking due to the 0% shield EM resistance, and don't really like restricting themselves to the native 60% armor resistance (which is under what they get for most other resistances after fitting hardeners). That's not the main reason why people use the eanm t2 + dcu combo but pre-eanm t2, lasers had it really easy against most tanks. Most of your guns don't need any boosting, at all. There are a few exceptions in the small and med class, that is all.
Originally by: Commander Thrawn
he is right there are figure out there. atm do to eanm and the massive cap use of our gun, putting projectiles on amarr ships that do not have bonuses to dmg or rof if more effective
I've seen those silly figures and they are as misleading as figures can be. Most of those setups wouldn't even work on SISI FFA, let alone in any fight on TQ.

And this thread is really a bastard child of the other, the 62 pages long amarr thread, with the same kind of tired poorly though arguments, repeatedly defeated yet always coming back.

NB.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.08.16 09:20:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Naughty Boy
Their weakness to EW is a good thing, since they have good damage and good tanks. What's broken however, on top of ECM, is the balance of low and mid slots and modules. With ECM balanced, mid/low slot layout on ships and mid/low slot modules balanced, shield tank would be seen more often, balancing the damage types.


Problem here is even if every ship "designed" for a shield tank would use one we would have still about 66% armor 33% shieldtanks.

Mainly due to minnie ships being 50:50 armor:shieldtanks, gallente and amarr 100% armor and caldari 100% shieldtanks. Fixing the med/lowslot imbalance will reduce the problem significantly, but not totally solve it.

Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2006.08.16 09:39:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Wild Rho on 16/08/2006 09:39:59
tbh Amarr are fine overall.

The "EM damage only" argument falls on it's face in several places.

On the battleships the pilot also has a respectable drone bay and can also fit missile launchers to vary damage types. While the primary damage type remains unchanged you can adjust a significant portion of your firepower damage types easily enough.
Most ships that tank tend to have fairly even levels of resistance to all 4 damage types, not just EM. On a serious tank the differences between EM/Therm and the other types is a very small % and hardly significant.

I do believe the maller and omen could be looked at as it is extremely rare that you will see them involved in pvp operations compared to ships like the thorax, rupture and black birds etc. Also when you do see them they are very often using "non native" weapon systems such as projectiles or frigate guns.
This may be due to the fact the Amarr varients lack a niche role in pvp that isn't better performed by another races equivalent. The one exception to this would be the Arbitrator that is a great little cruiser when you learn to use it.
For the Maller I'd like to see it's skills more strongly directed at tanking (boosting rep amount per cycle/reducing cap use per cycle etc).
For the Omen I'm not sure.

The fitting requirements on some of the medium and small weapons could be looked at as well as they are very powergrid hungry, even with Advanced weapon upgrades 5.

Anywho that's all I'm going to say on it.


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