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Auryn Darkblade
Caldari
Black whole legion
Posted - 2006.08.15 22:52:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Auryn Darkblade on 15/08/2006 22:53:08
I'm not sure why this thread has not received any response from CCP, but it is quite obvious that Amarr ships leave something to be desired generally right now.

Stated in This Thread (which has 62 pages by the way):

***********************************************************
1. the 2nd amarr bonus is crap. 10% to make guns useable is not a bonus.
2. ccp wants fights to take longer. so energized adaptive nanos are not going to be nerfed.
3. amarr have basically no capiblity of ew, so they need to be the hardest to jam.
4. the small and med laser guns are way to hard to fit. unless you have max skills you cannot fit a omen almost at all with 4 guns. similar issues with frigs.
5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety.
6. a amarr ship or any other ship should not be better with another races guns on it. example autocannons on maller and apoc.

***********************************************************

Please at least respond "we are looking at this" or "next patch will do so and so" or something. I have spent over a year training amarr skills for what? Ships that are brutally ineffective in PVP?


Pyxee
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2006.08.15 23:01:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Auryn Darkblade
5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety.


Could you expand on this please, because I have no idea what you're talking about.

Naughty Boy
Chronics of ordinary hate
Posted - 2006.08.15 23:07:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Naughty Boy on 15/08/2006 23:30:42
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade
1. the 2nd amarr bonus is crap. 10% to make guns useable is not a bonus.
By the same logic, the rof + damage bonuses for minmatar ships are crap too, since they are what make minmatar ships usable. In fact, amarr have it better than minmatar or gallente as you can work around bad ship skills more easily.
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade
2. ccp wants fights to take longer. so energized adaptive nanos are not going to be nerfed.
They need a bit of tweaking, which could be compatible with "not being nerfed".
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade
3. amarr have basically no capiblity of ew, so they need to be the hardest to jam.
Their weakness to EW is a good thing, since they have good damage and good tanks. What's broken however, on top of ECM, is the balance of low and mid slots and modules. With ECM balanced, mid/low slot layout on ships and mid/low slot modules balanced, shield tank would be seen more often, balancing the damage types. You want to adress the most obvious symptoms but the problem would stay, causing more problems on the way.
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade
4. the small and med laser guns are way to hard to fit. unless you have max skills you cannot fit a omen almost at all with 4 guns. similar issues with frigs.
Figures agree with you Razz
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade
5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety.
You don't really see "specific" tanks anyway, unless fighting npc'ers, so it's a bit moot. You could complain about the armor resistances of the muninn, but probably not as much as minmatar pilots, so... o.-
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade
6. a amarr ship or any other ship should not be better with another races guns on it. example autocannons on maller and apoc.
I'm not sure about what you mean, autocannons are terrible without two damage bonuses (or rof + damage) so if it works, it's only because you have lot of turret hardpoints... which means that lasers are still ahead (accounting for my previous answers, of course). I'm not saying that the maller is awesome though.

NB.

Asestorian
Domination.
Posted - 2006.08.15 23:08:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Asestorian on 15/08/2006 23:08:16
Originally by: Pyxee
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade
5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety.


Could you expand on this please, because I have no idea what you're talking about.


Well, for many of the posts in linked long thread, its basically saying that EM (especially on armour tanks, with EANMIIs) is an extremely easy damage type to tank against, negating almost completely high level of raw DPS the lasers do.

Auryn Darkblade
Caldari
Black whole legion
Posted - 2006.08.15 23:10:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Pyxee
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade
5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety.


Could you expand on this please, because I have no idea what you're talking about.


Certianly, ill go by race:

Amarr:
Racial weapon - lasers
EM & THERMAL damge only

Caldari:
Racial weapon - missles
ANY damage type
Racial weapon - Hybrids
KINETIC + THERMAL

Gallente:
Racial weapon - Drones
ANY damage type
Racial weapon - Hybrids
KINETIC + THERMAL

Minmatar:
Racial weapon - guns
ANY Damage type


Does that explain it enough?

To top it all off-
Amarr - armor tank
Gallente - armor tank
Minmatar - armor tank
Caldari - shield tank

most armor has VERY high EM resist natrually

so Amarr are screwed again

Guurzak
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.08.15 23:10:00 - [6]
 

The Amarr are unhappy because they only have 2 damage types on their guns. This sets them apart from the Caldari, who only have 2 damage types on their guns, and the Gallente, who only have 2 damage types on their guns. The Minmatar also have only 2 damage types on their guns if they use T2 ammo, although they do have more options at T1.

The problem with Amarr damage types is not that they have too few options; they just don't like the ones they have, because everybody resists EMP.

Pyxee
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2006.08.15 23:13:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Pyxee on 15/08/2006 23:15:26
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade
Originally by: Pyxee
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade
5. they are also to easy to defend against due to the lack of damage variety.


Could you expand on this please, because I have no idea what you're talking about.


Certianly, ill go by race:

Amarr:
Racial weapon - lasers
EM & THERMAL damge only

Caldari:
Racial weapon - missles
ANY damage type
Racial weapon - Hybrids
KINETIC + THERMAL

Gallente:
Racial weapon - Drones
ANY damage type
Racial weapon - Hybrids
KINETIC + THERMAL

Minmatar:
Racial weapon - guns
ANY Damage type


Does that explain it enough?

To top it all off-
Amarr - armor tank
Gallente - armor tank
Minmatar - armor tank
Caldari - shield tank

most armor has VERY high EM resist natrually

so Amarr are screwed again


Do you even play this game?
Sticking by the whole "GALLENTE USE DRONES LOL" thing still is shortsighted. Any race can use drones and there are actually very few Gallente ships that get bonuses to drones. Hence, drones count for all races which automatically renders your entire point moot.
I might add that any ship that does get bonuses to drones, gets "nerfed" in another area.

As for your second little list, you do know that Minnies tank both shield and armor, right, depending on the ship?

Originally by: Guurzak
The Minmatar also have only 2 damage types on their guns if they use T2 ammo, although they do have more options at T1.


Might also add that the ammo types that do three types of damage do considerably less damage per type than the other race's ammo, which unfortunately makes 1/3 or 2/3 depending on the ship and ammo automatically tanked by whatever you shoot at.

So ACTUALLY, the ones who SHOULD be complaining, are Minmatar newbies. :)

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2006.08.15 23:14:00 - [8]
 

last problem you forgot abt: khanids

inSpirAcy
The Solopwnmobiles
Asomat Drive Yards
Posted - 2006.08.15 23:14:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: inSpirAcy on 15/08/2006 23:14:42
Originally by: Guurzak
The problem with Amarr damage types is not that they have too few options; they just don't like the ones they have, because everybody resists EMP.
The problem came about not because everyone wanted to resist EM, but because the DC fix and introduction of compensation skills made 2xEANM + DC a better tank than 3xActives.

Few would bother armor hardening against EM if it weren't a side effect of EANM and DCs.

Auryn Darkblade
Caldari
Black whole legion
Posted - 2006.08.15 23:18:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Pyxee
Edited by: Pyxee on 15/08/2006 23:15:26
Do you even play this game?
Sticking by the whole "GALLENTE USE DRONES LOL" thing still is shortsighted. Any race can use drones and there are actually very few Gallente ships that get bonuses to drones. Hence, drones count for all races which automatically renders your entire point moot.
I might add that any ship that does get bonuses to drones, gets "nerfed" in another area.

...



you are seriously trying to argue that Gallente don't favor drones as a weapon type? lol!


Pyxee
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2006.08.15 23:21:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Auryn Darkblade


you are seriously trying to argue that Gallente don't favor drones as a weapon type? lol!




If you're going to refute my claims, I would like something more constructive than "lol!".

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2006.08.15 23:26:00 - [12]
 

That thread only got so long because its full of half-baked whining followed by equally weak counter-whining. Its not exactly proof of anything, and probably why it doesn't deserve any dev commitments whatsoever.

There is nothing wrong with Amarr. Just because you may find the whole 'zap zap zap' mode of play boring doesn't make it any less effective.

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.08.15 23:29:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Pyxee
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade


you are seriously trying to argue that Gallente don't favor drones as a weapon type? lol!




If you're going to refute my claims, I would like something more constructive than "lol!".


While I don't approve of unspecific whining without suggestions, I do feel the need to point out that Gallente not only have drone specific ships, they have larger drone bays in general than thier racial counterparts. Megathron/thorax are good examples of gunships that have large dronebays and thusly, more ability to vary damage type.

Nyxus

Pyxee
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2006.08.15 23:36:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Nyxus
Originally by: Pyxee
Originally by: Auryn Darkblade


you are seriously trying to argue that Gallente don't favor drones as a weapon type? lol!




If you're going to refute my claims, I would like something more constructive than "lol!".


While I don't approve of unspecific whining without suggestions, I do feel the need to point out that Gallente not only have drone specific ships, they have larger drone bays in general than thier racial counterparts. Megathron/thorax are good examples of gunships that have large dronebays and thusly, more ability to vary damage type.

Nyxus



But the thing is, it isn't enough to list them as an ENTIRE ADDITIONAL SET OF DAMAGE TYPES, while leaving it out for every other race.

And as for missiles, you can either improve two types or use all four and gimp yourself in all, it's not even comparable because they only do one damage type each.

korrey
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.15 23:38:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
That thread only got so long because its full of half-baked whining followed by equally weak counter-whining. Its not exactly proof of anything, and probably why it doesn't deserve any dev commitments whatsoever.

There is nothing wrong with Amarr. Just because you may find the whole 'zap zap zap' mode of play boring doesn't make it any less effective.



If I hear another anti-amarr-complain from a non amarr soec'd player I think ill puke. And if you do use amarr then im sure your an "excellent" pvp'r. Rolling Eyes

Alright first. Gallente. Dominix. Vexor. Ishtar. And frigates dont count. So other than the vexor and domi and ishtar theres the thorax and mega and demios.(Im not uncluing the ships that suck at pvp like exequror.)

Thats 50% of Gallente ships that use drones. Id say that warrants Drones as one of their primary weapons dont you?

Next...Amarr.
Digitalcommunis. Tell me what 0.0 system to meet in and ill gladly come and own any amarr ship you have with a minmatar one. Why? Because your exp. resis sucks.

Or better yet do this. Get any amarr ship other than the Geddon and fit it with Lasers. Then go to 0.0 alone and try and kill ANYTHING your size. PvP = amarr sucks. PvE= Amarrs great...WONDERFUL! I spec'd in Amar so I could kill 6/10 plex's and 0.0 spawns! woo hoo!

fix it...

Mila Prestoc
Posted - 2006.08.15 23:39:00 - [16]
 

You do realise minmatar get a choice of damage (limited compared to missiles) due to low damage?

Short sighted whines like this topic and the other topic are why dev's won't reply. The few valid points are ruined by completely biased whines trying to make out the whole race is screwed up.

Quality > Quantity.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2006.08.15 23:46:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: korrey

Next...Amarr.
Digitalcommunis. Tell me what 0.0 system to meet in and ill gladly come and own any amarr ship you have with a minmatar one. Why? Because your exp. resis sucks.



I'd look out with this statement. Amarr still have Curse in their arsenal.

Pyxee
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2006.08.15 23:49:00 - [18]
 

I hear the Zealot, Crusader, Malediction, Absolution, Damnation, Punisher, Arbitrator, Pilgrim/Curse, Prophecy and Armageddon are ****ty ships, can anyone confirm this?

Kulmid
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2006.08.15 23:55:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Auryn Darkblade

Gallente:
Racial weapon - Drones
ANY damage type
Racial weapon - Hybrids
KINETIC + THERMAL



drone ships are pretty much limited to thermal and kinetic dmg when it comes to drones, the other drones DPS is just well, sad thus, making Gallente Kinetic/Thermal all the way


Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2006.08.15 23:57:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Pyxee
I hear the Zealot, Crusader, Malediction, Absolution, Damnation, Punisher, Arbitrator, Pilgrim/Curse, Prophecy and Armageddon are ****ty ships, can anyone confirm this?


Compared to ... ? Or maybe in their own class?

Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.08.16 00:01:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
That thread only got so long because its full of half-baked whining followed by equally weak counter-whining. Its not exactly proof of anything, and probably why it doesn't deserve any dev commitments whatsoever.

There is nothing wrong with Amarr. Just because you may find the whole 'zap zap zap' mode of play boring doesn't make it any less effective.



QFT

Amarr are fien the way they are , u dotn see caldari or gallante pilots whining about their 2 dmg types when they Shoot galalnet or caldari T2 ships who have insane resistas aginst kin and thermal , Adapt or just go play something else .

There is only one RACE to RULE them all which is Jovians and no one will ever play with them as far as i can see !

inSpirAcy
The Solopwnmobiles
Asomat Drive Yards
Posted - 2006.08.16 00:09:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: inSpirAcy on 16/08/2006 00:10:05
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel
Amarr are fien the way they are , u dotn see caldari or gallante pilots whining about their 2 dmg types when they Shoot galalnet or caldari T2 ships who have insane resistas aginst kin and thermal , Adapt or just go play something else.
The fact you had to bring T2 in as your example pretty much says it all. Laughing

I'm not even going to comment on the two damage type assertion for Caldari, or the dismissal of Kin/Therm as preferable to EM/Therm. I'll just list the resistances for the T1 ship which best supports your argument (Gallente, let's take a Megathron) with the most common tank: 2 EANM, 1 DC.

EM: 80%
Expl: 54%
Kin: 67%
Therm: 67%

It's easy to make convincing sounding arguments in such a short space, but it's just as easy for me to debunk them.

Edit: Incidentally, I'm not in favour of or trying to elicit a dev response on the subject. I'm in the firm belief that they will comment when and if they feel it's worthwhile and ready, and if they don't I'll continue to play Amarr anyway. I just really, really hate bad arguments. Wink

Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.08.16 00:17:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: inSpirAcy
Edited by: inSpirAcy on 16/08/2006 00:10:05
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel
Amarr are fien the way they are , u dotn see caldari or gallante pilots whining about their 2 dmg types when they Shoot galalnet or caldari T2 ships who have insane resistas aginst kin and thermal , Adapt or just go play something else.
The fact you had to bring T2 in as your example pretty much says it all. Laughing

I'm not even going to comment on the two damage type assertion for Caldari, or the dismissal of Kin/Therm as preferable to EM/Therm. I'll just list the resistances for the T1 ship which best supports your argument (Gallente, let's take a Megathron) with the most common tank: 2 EANM, 1 DC.

EM: 80%
Expl: 54%
Kin: 67%
Therm: 67%

It's easy to make convincing sounding arguments in such a short space, but it's just as easy for me to debunk them.

Edit: Incidentally, I'm not in favour of or trying to elicit a dev response on the subject. I'm in the firm belief that they will comment when and if they feel it's worthwhile and ready, and if they don't I'll continue to play Amarr anyway. I just really, really hate bad arguments. Wink


Mmm whats wrogn with T2 ???

Based on ur mega setup u just mentioned although i am not sure of the stats but anywhooo Em is tough on armour fine but what about 0% on shields ? Amarr guns rip shields asap and then chew slower on armour, Hybrid guns will take lesser tiem to chew on shields due to basic resists on shields due to kin and thermal resists so it is balanced , dont see ur argument at all except that u want lasers to shoot all dmg types to be a cookie cutter which will never happen coz it will be an imbalance.

Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.08.16 00:21:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: inSpirAcy
The problem came about not because everyone wanted to resist EM, but because the DC fix and introduction of compensation skills made 2xEANM + DC a better tank than 3xActives.



NO ! I have compensation skills to LVL 5 and with passive hardners or EAN and DC it is still not more than active hardners only diff it will give u more survivability if ur being nossed in that case ur resists will not drop.

Byzan Zwyth
Firebird Squadron
Terra-Incognita
Posted - 2006.08.16 00:23:00 - [25]
 

I'm not sure about the "damage" issues but one obvious problem that canít really be argued against as far as I can see is fitting costs and cap use of lasers. I donít see that the advantage of not using amo makes up for that at all. crystals get very $$$ as well. So laser users end carrying a much greater investment into battle.

Then again I am fairly new to the game. I wanted to fly Amarr ships and zap people but I ran into this problem and gave up on amarr. Now with my skills trained up for another race That problem has vanished and I get a damage bonus for my ship skill and not a weapon cap reduction that did not really help. And the only drawback is that I have to stock up on amo when I dock... So what...

When in a fight a little extra cargo space is the last advantage you want.

inSpirAcy
The Solopwnmobiles
Asomat Drive Yards
Posted - 2006.08.16 00:23:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel
Mmm whats wrogn with T2 ???
Because I could pull out a T2 ship with insane EM/Therm resists as well and it'd prove nothing. The majority of fights in EVE are between T1 ships and that's where most gripes lie.

Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel
Based on ur mega setup u just mentioned although i am not sure of the stats but anywhooo Em is tough on armour fine but what about 0% on shields ?
This has been covered in another thread (search for "Amarr and PvP" to read detailed arguments) but it breaks down into two problems. 0% resist is low enough that a double Invul tank often warrants a specific EM hardener anyway, but that's not the primary argument. (nor particularly convincing for me)

At the moment the main argument is that EVE in its present state heavily favours armor tanked PvP, mainly due to the EW imbalances. Amarrians may have an advantage against shield tanked ships, but when they're primarily going up against armor tankers the argument is moot. This is a point raised earlier in the thread, that fixing the root of these problems - EW, mostly - is a better solution than fixing the symptoms (that EM currently sucks as a primary damage).

Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel
except that u want lasers to shoot all dmg types to be a cookie cutter which will never happen coz it will be an imbalance.
Now you're just putting words into my mouth that are patently wrong. I am completely against additional damage types for lasers.

Don't pick up some whiner's argument and put it forward as mine.

korrey
Amarr
Posted - 2006.08.16 00:23:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: korrey on 16/08/2006 00:24:52
Originally by: Pyxee
I hear the Zealot, Crusader, Malediction, Absolution, Damnation, Punisher, Arbitrator, Pilgrim/Curse, Prophecy and Armageddon are ****ty ships, can anyone confirm this?


Your mis-informed. Anyone who mentions that Amarr T2 ships are horrible deserve only the gallows. But T1 vs T1? Amarr will lose every time. The only VERY good T1 ships are the Pilgrim (with good skills) and the Armageddon which bonus's actually APPLY to something useful. The Apocs cap bonus is crap. Add a cap injector or CPR and your already doing better than the Apoc.

T1 ships though. Omen < Thorax, Omen < Vexor, Omen < Caracal, Omen < Rupture, Omen < stabber.

But dont fear Amarr pilots! I inform all of you through extensive testing that our prize ship, the Omen CAN and is EASILY capable of beating the Exequror in all its mining glory, the Osprey in its split system-ness and even the mighty augoror... Rolling Eyes **


**(Note that you must have a minimum of 10million skillpoints to take out the Osprey and possibly more to break the Exequrors structure tank...)


inSpirAcy
The Solopwnmobiles
Asomat Drive Yards
Posted - 2006.08.16 00:25:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel
Originally by: inSpirAcy
The problem came about not because everyone wanted to resist EM, but because the DC fix and introduction of compensation skills made 2xEANM + DC a better tank than 3xActives.
NO ! I have compensation skills to LVL 5 and with passive hardners or EAN and DC it is still not more than active hardners only diff it will give u more survivability if ur being nossed in that case ur resists will not drop.
I didn't say a passive tank gives you higher resists (although it does give you a higher average of resists).

The virtual capless factor was also a heavy encouragement in this direction. Here I'm just pointing out why few saw a problem with lasers until relatively recently, not that this is the root of the problems or related to a fix.

Sarah Aubry
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2006.08.16 00:35:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel
Originally by: inSpirAcy
The problem came about not because everyone wanted to resist EM, but because the DC fix and introduction of compensation skills made 2xEANM + DC a better tank than 3xActives.



NO ! I have compensation skills to LVL 5 and with passive hardners or EAN and DC it is still not more than active hardners only diff it will give u more survivability if ur being nossed in that case ur resists will not drop.


Normally on an armor tank (pre ean2's) people fitted 1kin 1exp 1therm t2 hardner. Now instead they fit 3x ean2 (which IS more than the actives) or 2x ean2+dc which is for a lot of purposes a more balanced tank.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.16 00:42:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist

Just because you may find the whole 'zap zap zap' mode of play boring doesn't make it any less effective.


i'm assuming that by "'zap zap zap' mode of play" you mean our lack of versatility when it comes to dealing damage.

in that case your above statement is actually not entirely true.

being restricted in what you can throw at an enemy makes you predictable.
in the case of lasers it makes you predicatable and easy to counter.
(note: not talking about how you dont even need to spealize against laser damage to be tanked well against it.)

being easy to predict and counter does in turn make you "less effective" should you decide to fight against somewhat skilled/intelligent opponents.


seeing how your in charge of writing all those nifty little eon guides i thought you would actually know that much.



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