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Gyfrex
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.08.15 22:23:00 - [1]
 

Hi there,
I've been a turret user for most of my eve life and flew a tempest until recently when i found a new love for the Typhoon, needless to say my missile skills are poor and as such my typhoon's damage output is quite poor aswell. I prefer to use Torpedos to increase my damage output against larger targets and use ACs and drones to hurt the little guys. As such i have been looking at tech 2 torps and looking at some of the down sides to the tech 2 torps (particularly the rage ones -20% cap recharge per launcher) i was wondering if the time taken to train for these is truly worth it.
Any advice given is most appreciated.
(sorry for the long post and poor paragraph structure :P)

Eleni Shakira
Citizens of E.A.R.T.H.
E.A.R.T.H. Federation
Posted - 2006.08.15 22:24:00 - [2]
 

Javelin Torps are considered overpowered atm.

Wrayeth
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2006.08.15 22:31:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Eleni Shakira
Javelin Torps are considered overpowered atm.


By who? Have you ever tried to kill a heavily-tanked HAC with normal torps? It doesn't work very well. With javs, it's possible.

Oh, and turret ships don't have to use tech II ammo to kill a HAC. AC tempests, blasterthrons, and even megapulse 'geddons that fit a web all generally have no trouble ripping a HAC apart.

Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.08.16 00:08:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Wrayeth
Have you ever tried to kill a heavily-tanked HAC with normal torps? It doesn't work very well. With javs, it's possible.

Oh, and turret ships don't have to use tech II ammo to kill a HAC. AC tempests, blasterthrons, and even megapulse 'geddons that fit a web all generally have no trouble ripping a HAC apart.


Don't compare T1 torps without web to T1 turrets with web ... T1 torps on a webbed target work fine. ;-)


Wrayeth
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2006.08.16 00:50:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Lazuran

Don't compare T1 torps without web to T1 turrets with web ... T1 torps on a webbed target work fine. ;-)




It's not the velocity that's the issue vs. HACs (T1 torps can do 2800m/s or somewhere thereabouts) - it's the signature radius. The low sig radius of cruisers makes them take some pretty drastically reduced damage in the first place, then you add in HAC resists. This is where javelin torps help a lot, since they have the explosion radius of cruise missiles (300, as opposed to the 400 of torps), though they're still not affected by Guided Missile Precision.

Constantinee
Caldari
Nex Exercitus
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.08.16 01:04:00 - [6]
 

hey gy,

I use the jav torps on a daily basis and love em to death. if u are a raven or typhoon user they come in handy very much. Now for the fact that they are over powerd.....ARE U INSANE?!?1?!?!

Javs are no where near being overpowerd. if uoir saying that torps should not be able to at about 200km range and turrets only can then you are dead wrong. the torps deal most t2 turret damage at that range making it about the same as anyother turret boat in fleet....rather any engagments what soever. the sig radius is needed against ships like HACs as wrayeth already pointed out. Torps are no where near over powerd man.

Drunken Claptrap
Caldari
VMF-214 Blacksheep
Posted - 2006.08.16 01:06:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Drunken Claptrap on 16/08/2006 01:06:21
Originally by: Wrayeth
Originally by: Lazuran

Don't compare T1 torps without web to T1 turrets with web ... T1 torps on a webbed target work fine. ;-)




It's not the velocity that's the issue vs. HACs (T1 torps can do 2800m/s or somewhere thereabouts) - it's the signature radius. The low sig radius of cruisers makes them take some pretty drastically reduced damage in the first place, then you add in HAC resists. This is where javelin torps help a lot, since they have the explosion radius of cruise missiles (300, as opposed to the 400 of torps), though they're still not affected by Guided Missile Precision.



Totally agree with Wrayeth. T2 Torps are fine at the moment. They work, and are balanced imo.

Imode
Celestial Apocalypse
The Requiem
Posted - 2006.08.16 01:49:00 - [8]
 

Quote:
[ 2006.08.11 03:16:48 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Mjolnir Rage Torpedo hits Minmatar Control Tower [CLS-F]<ASCN>, doing 1075.7 damage


Sooo worth it! Very Happy

Aegis Osiris
Gallente
Peanut Factory
Posted - 2006.08.16 01:59:00 - [9]
 

To answer the OP in a word: yes.


'nuff said

fkingfurious
Posted - 2006.08.16 02:01:00 - [10]
 

Javs are more effective against smaller targets but less effective against faster targets. But theyre not what u want on a phoon neway.

On a phoon u want Rage torps with 2 target painter 2's. In combination with T2 autos and Hail and T2 heavy drones its awesome dps. Rage torps will hit for 1000 damage against a target whos sig is high enuff ( i.e. over 1000 ).

Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.08.16 02:32:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Aegis Osiris
To answer the OP in a word: yes.


'nuff said


Agreed.

Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.08.16 14:42:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Lazuran on 16/08/2006 14:43:42
(the forum bugs annoy me - 3 attempts to post something because it either didn't post, deleted my text or posted something else ...)

Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.08.16 14:42:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Lazuran on 16/08/2006 14:43:52

Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.08.16 14:43:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Wrayeth
Originally by: Lazuran

Don't compare T1 torps without web to T1 turrets with web ... T1 torps on a webbed target work fine. ;-)




It's not the velocity that's the issue vs. HACs (T1 torps can do 2800m/s or somewhere thereabouts) - it's the signature radius. The low sig radius of cruisers makes them take some pretty drastically reduced damage in the first place, then you add in HAC resists. This is where javelin torps help a lot, since they have the explosion radius of cruise missiles (300, as opposed to the 400 of torps), though they're still not affected by Guided Missile Precision.


Velocity is an issue too, esp. explosion velocity. This is 1 T2 siege on a phoon vs. a Deimos with perfect skills:

T1 bane on Deimos with 250m/s: 16.369 dps
T1 bane on Deimos with 500m/s: 5.469 dps
(quickfit chokes at > 500 m/s ... I wonder if the calculations are correct)
T2 bane javelin on Deimos with 250m/s: 21.825 dps
T2 bane javelin on Deimos with 500m/s: 21.825 dps

So the difference between T1 and T2 torps is noticeable, but it's only huge when the target is faster than the explosion velocity of the T1 torps and thus not when the target is webbed (in that case you win only the +25% from the explosion radius reduction).


xlop
Gallente
Appetite 4 Destruction
Posted - 2006.08.16 14:53:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Wrayeth
dont nerf my overpowered raven pls


dont jav torps mean that there is even a lesser reason to use cruise launchers, kill 50pvp ravens and 48 will have siege launchers


also stop your web crying, you only need 3 target painters in your WHOLE GANG to bump up a hac sig past 300 easy.


oh and is there ever a reason to use normal t1 ammo over javs ? well if the answer is no then u know its overpowered.

id use AM over null for more damage and AM over void for more tracking ect

make javs have 500sig!! and keep the speed or make them have 1/3 normal torp speed and keep the 300 sig!

Laythun
Viziam
Posted - 2006.08.16 14:55:00 - [16]
 

Wayreth..

why are you comparing torps on cruisers to megapulse on cruisers?
for that comparison u sohuld be using cruise...

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2006.08.16 15:02:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Lazuran
Velocity is an issue too, esp. explosion velocity. This is 1 T2 siege on a phoon vs. a Deimos with perfect skills:

T1 bane on Deimos with 250m/s: 16.369 dps
T1 bane on Deimos with 500m/s: 5.469 dps
(quickfit chokes at > 500 m/s ... I wonder if the calculations are correct)
T2 bane javelin on Deimos with 250m/s: 21.825 dps
T2 bane javelin on Deimos with 500m/s: 21.825 dps

There is something very wrong with that calculation. The target needs to go 1250m/s above explosive velocity to get 50% damage reduction, for t1 torpedoes tith level 4 velocity skill that means over 1500m/s, and to get the reduction you posted above the deimos would need to travel at around 2000-2500m/s.

Ozzie Asrail
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.08.16 15:09:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Hoshi
Originally by: Lazuran
Velocity is an issue too, esp. explosion velocity. This is 1 T2 siege on a phoon vs. a Deimos with perfect skills:

T1 bane on Deimos with 250m/s: 16.369 dps
T1 bane on Deimos with 500m/s: 5.469 dps
(quickfit chokes at > 500 m/s ... I wonder if the calculations are correct)
T2 bane javelin on Deimos with 250m/s: 21.825 dps
T2 bane javelin on Deimos with 500m/s: 21.825 dps

There is something very wrong with that calculation. The target needs to go 1250m/s above explosive velocity to get 50% damage reduction, for t1 torpedoes tith level 4 velocity skill that means over 1500m/s, and to get the reduction you posted above the deimos would need to travel at around 2000-2500m/s.


Uh now way dude.

The Explosion Velocity of a torp is 250m/s so anything faster than that gets a damge reduction. (and no skills affect that either)

Your getting mixed up with the simple velocity of a torp which is 1250m/s and makes no difference to the damage except for the fact that anyhting faster than 1250m/s will outrun the torp completly"

Liu Kaskakka
PAK
Posted - 2006.08.16 15:27:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Constantinee

I use the jav torps on a daily basis and love em to death....Now for the fact that they are over powerd.....ARE U INSANE?!?1?!?!...Torps are no where near over powerd man.


Laughing

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.08.16 15:29:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: xlop
Originally by: Wrayeth
dont nerf my overpowered raven pls


dont jav torps mean that there is even a lesser reason to use cruise launchers, kill 50pvp ravens and 48 will have siege launchers


also stop your web crying, you only need 3 target painters in your WHOLE GANG to bump up a hac sig past 300 easy.


oh and is there ever a reason to use normal t1 ammo over javs ? well if the answer is no then u know its overpowered.

id use AM over null for more damage and AM over void for more tracking ect

make javs have 500sig!! and keep the speed or make them have 1/3 normal torp speed and keep the 300 sig!


I've seen a mix of ravens.
If you compare T2 torps with T1 cruises, then yes, they're better.
But the same comparison of cruises vs. torps still applies - torps work better against larger targets. Even a javelin torp doesn't really compare to a precision cruise. It's just about comparable to a 'normal' cruise, but the cruise is still better for signature and velocity.

Cruises do still get the FoF variants, and are still easier to fit than torps, and are still better against smaller ships.

(Unless you want to compare javelin torps against normal cruises, and then the comparison is much tighter.)

IMO the T2 torps are fairly well balanced - the penalty is present, enough that they're not used all the time, but not so much that they don't get used.

MrRookie
M. Corp
M. PIRE
Posted - 2006.08.16 16:01:00 - [21]
 



dont jav torps mean that there is even a lesser reason to use cruise launchers, kill 50pvp ravens and 48 will have siege launchers

I can come up with alot of reasons to use cruise launchers over sieges. Lets start with fitting requirements. Fitting t2 425s on a Mega is no where as hard as fitting t2 sieges on the Raven if you want something close to usefull in all your slots. Your ship becomes imobile... Not to mention the explotion radius and speed still isn't ideal to handle small ships. Oh and the cost...

also stop your web crying, you only need 3 target painters in your WHOLE GANG to bump up a hac sig past 300 easy.

Not everyone is flying around in gangs you know besides it's pretty obvious that any ship would benefit from that.

oh and is there ever a reason to use normal t1 ammo over javs ? well if the answer is no then u know its overpowered.

id use AM over null for more damage and AM over void for more tracking ect


I'd use regular torps over rage torps to hitt anthing smaller and faster than a station bla bla...


To the OP
Tech 2 torps are worth it just like Tech 2 guns not much to say there. If you like missiles and use a phoon you should get them. Half of the phoons slots are for missiles afterall.

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2006.08.16 20:11:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Ozzie Asrail
Originally by: Hoshi

There is something very wrong with that calculation. The target needs to go 1250m/s above explosive velocity to get 50% damage reduction, for t1 torpedoes tith level 4 velocity skill that means over 1500m/s, and to get the reduction you posted above the deimos would need to travel at around 2000-2500m/s.


Uh now way dude.

The Explosion Velocity of a torp is 250m/s so anything faster than that gets a damge reduction. (and no skills affect that either)

Your getting mixed up with the simple velocity of a torp which is 1250m/s and makes no difference to the damage except for the fact that anyhting faster than 1250m/s will outrun the torp completly"

Read what I wrote again. I didn't say faster than 1250m/s to get any damage reduction, I said faster than 1250m/s above explosive velocity to get 50% damage reduction. In his example the reduction was 67% which means he has to go 1500 m/s above explosive velocity. That means 1850 m/s velocity on his ship (I did make a small error in my estimate above of 2000-2500, calculated it exactly now).

At 500m/s the damage reduction would be 1% of the raven pilot had target navigation prediction level 4, 10.5% if he had level 0.

For the record the formula used is e^(-1(target velocity - explosin velocity)^2/1500^2) as discovered by ELECTR0FREAK.

Wrayeth
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2006.08.16 20:35:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Laythun
Wayreth..

why are you comparing torps on cruisers to megapulse on cruisers?
for that comparison u sohuld be using cruise...



Why? Pulses are the high damage laser type, and torpedos are the high damage missile type. Torps equate to pulse lasers and cruise missiles equate to beam lasers as far as damage outputs within their class go. :)

Kharak'khan
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.08.16 22:25:00 - [24]
 

Torps are good, Tech 2 or not. Just remeber even a tech 2 torp wont kill a hac so easy! But will pwnz a BS.

I prefer Torps over cruise! There is more YArr


 

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