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Ares Helix
Gallente
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2006.08.08 20:28:00 - [1]
 

Recently I 'graduated' to flying Tech 2 ships. I'm still learning about them, but I've had my paws on a Deimos for quite a while & was going to train towards it...

...that is until I realised that if I lost my deceptively fragile Deimos, I'd be repayed a whoping tenth of the price I paid for it!

Likewise, I lost my first Ishkur yesterday & was repayed 3 out of 22 million isk with full cover.

I understand inflation as much as anyone (cept the NZ government maybe) but the Supply - Demand economics shouldn't factor into insurance. I'm happy to pay more to insure my ship, as long as I get back what I payed for!

What you guys think?

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.08 20:31:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/08/2006 20:32:12

IMHO, insurance is fine. Losing T2s should hurt more. You do pay the price for all the goodies. Insurance only insures the basic mineral price. Very Happy

Aeaus
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
Posted - 2006.08.08 20:33:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/08/2006 20:32:12

IMHO, insurance is fine. Losing T2s should hurt more. You do pay the price for all the goodies. Insurance only insures the basic mineral price. Very Happy


T2 is elite, it gives you the edge. If it insured fully everyone would have it and it wouldn't be so "elite," anymore =]

Flash Landsraad
coracao ardente
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2006.08.08 20:34:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Flash Landsraad on 08/08/2006 20:34:17
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/08/2006 20:32:12

IMHO, insurance is fine. Losing T2s should hurt more. You do pay the price for all the goodies. Insurance only insures the basic mineral price. Very Happy


Agreed, insurance is fine as it is.

The advice is 'don't fly what you can't afford to loose', not 'don't fly what you can't afford to insure'.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.08 20:34:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/08/2006 20:35:53
Originally by: Aeaus
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/08/2006 20:32:12

IMHO, insurance is fine. Losing T2s should hurt more. You do pay the price for all the goodies. Insurance only insures the basic mineral price. Very Happy


T2 is elite, it gives you the edge. If it insured fully everyone would have it and it wouldn't be so "elite," anymore =]


Elite ship == Elite price == Elite wallet == Elite heartbreak. Smile

Dethis
Caldari
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2006.08.08 20:35:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/08/2006 20:32:12

IMHO, insurance is fine. Losing T2s should hurt more. You do pay the price for all the goodies. Insurance only insures the basic mineral price. Very Happy


Agreed

Imode
Celestial Apocalypse
The Requiem
Posted - 2006.08.08 20:38:00 - [7]
 

Moreso than ever now, it needs to be said--

Fly only what you can afford to lose.

BootStrap
Veiled Justice
Posted - 2006.08.08 20:41:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Ares Helix

I understand inflation as much as anyone (cept the NZ government maybe) but the Supply - Demand economics shouldn't factor into insurance. I'm happy to pay more to insure my ship, as long as I get back what I payed for!

What you guys think?


Thats the point, insurance doesn't take supply and demand into account, the insurance payouts are fixed, based on the base price of the materials needed to make the ship. The supply and demand come on the purchasing side due, in part, to fixed amount of BPOs and long (36hr) build times.

Laboratus
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2006.08.08 20:47:00 - [9]
 

Yea, and if insurance covered t2 ships better, the price of t2 ships would rise to even more absurd hights.

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.08.08 20:51:00 - [10]
 

Nevermind the "elite ship" explanations. Here's cold logics.

Insurance need be done by computer algorithms
These algorithms cannot take into account what the ship was bought for considering that not all ships are bought
Thus the computer algorithms must take some other price into account - manufacturing price, which can be accuratly estimated.
This is what's done

If you wish "value" to be taken into consideration, arguing that it'd evaluate the avarage buy prices, then consider that it doesn't charge you extra because you are highly likely to lose the ship, and leave it at that.

Nebuli
Caldari
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.08 21:08:00 - [11]
 

Another thing to consider is that lets take I dont know a cerberus as an example.

Lets say the average market price for a given week was lets say a nice round 200mil, so CCP introduce a nice little system that takes the weeks average and changes insurances to suit.

So now we can insure our cerberus and get back 180mil when we lose it, great so far right?

So off we go to buy a new one off the market, wait a minute there arent any, wtf? whats going on, none for sale anywhere?

Whats happened is every cerberus producer has just built, insured and blown up their cerbs for the insurance money Laughing

Crellion
Parental Control
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.08.08 21:10:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Crellion on 08/08/2006 21:11:13
Nothing wrong with insurance.

Tech II market and resulting prices is a disgrace of course but that has been extensively covered elsewhere.

BTW Neb I am ta work so forum wh****g but wtf are you doing posting in every thread in here? Go kill something, attaboy Smile

Foulis
Minmatar
Spartan Industrial Manufacturing
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.08 21:12:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/08/2006 20:32:12

IMHO, insurance is fine. Losing T2s should hurt more. You do pay the price for all the goodies. Insurance only insures the basic mineral price. Very Happy


Yup.

Reithan
Sick Tight
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2006.08.08 21:14:00 - [14]
 

The imbalance here is not with the insurance system, it's with the Tech2 crafting system.

The Tech2 lottery allows hoarding of BPOs, which in turn allows producers to charge somewhat rediculous prices for Tech2 items.

If anything, it's GOOD that the insurance system doesn't scale to that, because every time you lose a tech2 ship and you see the "100% payout" on it, it reminds you how much you got ripped off by your producer.

Durethia
Blackwater USA Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.08.08 21:16:00 - [15]
 


Insurance on T2 ships is fine. What's not fine, is the ammoral tendancies of those who own the T2 BPOs. The Insurance Returns on a platinum insurance plan shows how much those items should actually cost on the market, anything more is just reaching and as we all know.... T2 ships are far and above Platinum Insurance return.


Sveldt
Posted - 2006.08.08 21:18:00 - [16]
 

There's one issue w/ insurance that hasn't been mentioned here.

Upon opening the insurance window for the first time in a long time, we're bombarded by evemails noting that the insurance issued for date x through y has expired. Is it so difficult to tell us atleast the type of ship that is no longer insured?

Antodias
Ship spinners inc
Posted - 2006.08.08 21:20:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Sveldt
There's one issue w/ insurance that hasn't been mentioned here.

Upon opening the insurance window for the first time in a long time, we're bombarded by evemails noting that the insurance issued for date x through y has expired. Is it so difficult to tell us atleast the type of ship that is no longer insured?


The Dragon code coming in does that I think.

And as for the Original Point, as much as I feel like headbutting the monitor when I use a T2 ship, I think its probably best. Makes elite ships really 'leet'.

ragewind
Caldari
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
Posted - 2006.08.08 21:21:00 - [18]
 

the insurance spam mails are very anoying id rather it tell me the day the insurance ran out then 3 months later when im insuring a new ship.

as for the T2 insurance you do realise it cost less then the insuance payout to biuld the ships you are just being draged over a barrel at the hands of the producers thats the pit falls of player owned markets

Ryoka
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.08 21:23:00 - [19]
 

insurances in themsleves arevery fine, they are pretty much covering the building costs,

an insurance cant pay for an inflated price that only origanates by the finite spreading of t2 bpos...

meaning the a hac only takes some 40-45m in the making, the fact that they are sold for some 200m only results because the limited t2 bpos arent able (or the people owing them dont want to) cover the demand.

Sorja
11th Division
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2006.08.08 21:27:00 - [20]
 

Tech II is not elite, not in the slightest.
It's just the logical evolution from tech I.

The BPO lottery (or economics or whatever explanation floats your boat) is the problem since building HAC is around 37mill while they sell for 250+ for the most expensive.

An experienced pilot can raise 100mill a week without too much grinding, but when it comes to 300mill we are talking about powergaming which is not related to anything 'elite'. Not in the slightest.

Arkanor
Gallente
Ixion Defence Systems
Posted - 2006.08.08 21:29:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Arkanor on 08/08/2006 21:31:24
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/08/2006 20:32:12

IMHO, insurance is fine. Losing T2s should hurt more. You do pay the price for all the goodies. Insurance only insures the basic mineral price. Very Happy


QFE insurance is fine.

If you don't want to pay for a t2 replacement ship, don't lose your first one.

Brisi
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.08 21:34:00 - [22]
 

Insurance is not broken.

You should've been around when there was no insurance at all.

Ghoest
Posted - 2006.08.08 21:35:00 - [23]
 

Insurance is fine as is.

If you cant afford to lose your T2 then fly T1 with the newbs. T2 will still be there when you grow up.

Yakov Krasnov
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.08 21:55:00 - [24]
 

I think it should work like the real world... you can insure whatever you like, but the premiums could be brutal. Maybe the standard EVE insurance is like State Farm, but there could be a more expensive version like Lloyd's of London that would insure the whole value of your fully T2 fitted faction BS, and the premiums would be a mere 50% or so of the market value... every month.

Antodias
Ship spinners inc
Posted - 2006.08.08 22:03:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Yakov Krasnov
I think it should work like the real world... you can insure whatever you like, but the premiums could be brutal. Maybe the standard EVE insurance is like State Farm, but there could be a more expensive version like Lloyd's of London that would insure the whole value of your fully T2 fitted faction BS, and the premiums would be a mere 50% or so of the market value... every month.


Dealing with RL insurance is bad enough thank you. Making it more realistic will have me tearing my hair out...

Kenz Rider
J Club
Posted - 2006.08.08 22:21:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Durethia

Insurance on T2 ships is fine. What's not fine, is the ammoral tendancies of those who own the T2 BPOs. The Insurance Returns on a platinum insurance plan shows how much those items should actually cost on the market, anything more is just reaching and as we all know.... T2 ships are far and above Platinum Insurance return.




If everyone had a T2 ship, it wouldn't be T2 anymore. CCP designed a system to limit supply of the ship to make it special. When you pay 250 mil for a HAC, you are not paying for the minerals, you are paying for the right to use the HAC design. What is the value of that right? The market says about 200 million. Is that too much? Too little? Who is to say. Most agree that T2 ships are little too rare at the moment, that more people should be allowed the use of the ships. My feeling is that the cheaper the ships get, the more you will see the rich people fitting their ships with officer mods, or whatever else they can spend money on to give them an advantage. It is inherent in the design of the game that those with the most money will have an advantage.

Ricky Baby
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.08.08 22:38:00 - [27]
 

Insurence doesn't even take the manufacturing price in that correctly - it uses CCP's base prices for the mins


min | matari index price | CCP base price

Tritanium | 1.86 | 2.00
Pyerite | 3.78 | 8.00
Mexallon | 8.18 | 32.00
Isogen | 115.10 | 128.00
Nocxium | 386.06 | 512.00
Zydrine | 3,842.41 | 2048.00
Megacyte | 4,638.00 | 8192.00
Morphite | 15,238.48 | 32768.00

Archo X
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.08 22:46:00 - [28]
 

The problem with T2 is not insurance or T@ builders. The problem is poor people.

If I fit a Gist X-Type XL booster on a Raven and go pop I more than likely lost a mod worth 1b isk. Now that was probably cuz I was lagged to hell for 30 minutes (how else do you lose that???) but it is not insured. If I can't afford to replace my gear then I shouldn't be using it.

When mission running I always have a second fully-fitted Raven just in case. When I flew a fully T2 fitted Retri I always had a second. In the rare event that I lost both ships one right after the other I have a large barge and I'm not ashamed to mine.

As for the people whining about T2 builders... If I offered you 10m per for a unit of trit would you take it? Damn skippy you would. So what's wrong with pocketing the extra isk people throw at you? Every time there is a Cerb on the market for 50m (seen it before) it is bought up then put right back for 250m. So some luck kid gets 200m for nothing. Might as well give the builder the extra money.

Want cheaper T2 items? Stop buying them. When demand drops T2 builders will be forced to undercut themselves and the ships will be dirt cheap. As long as they can make 200m per ship they will.

Capitalism 4TW!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.08.08 23:09:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Nebuli
Another thing to consider is that lets take I dont know a cerberus as an example.

Lets say the average market price for a given week was lets say a nice round 200mil, so CCP introduce a nice little system that takes the weeks average and changes insurances to suit.

So now we can insure our cerberus and get back 180mil when we lose it, great so far right?

So off we go to buy a new one off the market, wait a minute there arent any, wtf? whats going on, none for sale anywhere?

Whats happened is every cerberus producer has just built, insured and blown up their cerbs for the insurance money Laughing


And the reason cerb producers would "scam" insurance for 180 mil when they can get 200 mil in the open market is?

Also nvmd that it does not work this way. A platinum insurance gives you 100% back from the ship price. But: it also costs 30% of the ship price. So, even if insurance would be based on average market value you will *never* get more than 70% of the money you could get from selling it.
Unless, of cource, the market prices have inflated drastically since you insured your ship (and if insurance would use the current average, not the one when you insured it).

Now, the real problem/loophole would be this: producer puts up a sell order for a silly price - for example 2 bil for an eagle, uses alt/2nd account to buy it multiple times. Average market price skyrockets. Producer is loosing lots of eagles trying to rat concord ships in jita.

Ares Helix
Gallente
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2006.08.08 23:17:00 - [30]
 

Cheers for the advice & I'll certainly be sure to rethink my flying a T2 ship in the future. You're right, it's all my fault & I should be killed for my lack of understanding & allowing myself to reason that the logical progression from a Battleship would be to an assault frigate.

My humblest & most sincere of apologies.

Right now I've replied in kind to all of you fabulous older players great words of encouragement & wisdom, allow me to be less, um, sarcastic.Evil or Very Mad

Thanks for pointing out where the flaw lies, as in lack of t2 bpo's. As much as I support free trade, maybe a margining system would be handy, however I can understand the principles behind the market valuation & importance of being able to set ones own prices.

I think a good example of this, from my own POV has been the price of Hammerhead 2 combat drones. When I first started purchasing these wonders of technology, they were priced at about 300k per unit. After watching their prices skyrocket over the past 6 months, I can honestly say that 1.4 mil for a drone, when they're not always garaunteed to return to their bay, tech 2 or not is steep.

So where to next?

& more importantly, anyone wanna buy a Deimos?
ugh


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