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blankseplocked Design goal failed: Tempest made obsolete by T3s.
 
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Guurzak
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.08.03 14:14:00 - [1]
 

One of the design goals specifically stated by the devs was that the tier 3 battleships would not render any existing models useless. As we understand the designs today, that intent will fail with regard to the Tempest.

Let's start with the assumption that the Maelstrom is a better artillery platform than the Tempest. If it isn't, then the Mael not only fails in its designed role but has no role at all, since the devs have made it clear that the Mael is intended as a one-trick pony: if it can't do that trick, it's completely worthless. That leaves the Tempest as an autocannon platform.

The problem with that is that large autocannons are no longer a viable platform, due to imbalances with blasters.

* Blasters outDPS autocannons at short range.
* If the AC boat maintains range outside the blaster's killzone, the blaster is no longer scrambled and can disengage at will.
* With the introduction of the Hyperion, the AC boat cannot maintain range anyway.

Making the most damaging battleship also the fastest battleship turns the shortrange battlefield into a blasters win zone, destroying the Tempest's shortrange role. And the Tempest's longrange role is already coopted by the Maelstrom. What remaining role exists for this ship if the T3s are released as per current design?

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.08.03 14:16:00 - [2]
 


I think it would be better to not introduce the Hyperion at all, instead of trying to fix every ship that will be made useless by its introduction.

Soros
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.08.03 14:16:00 - [3]
 

By sayin he can hit out to scram range the b-thon is obviously gonna hav null fitted.
Take the fight to 500m and **** him. Whats the problem ?

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.08.03 14:21:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Soros
By sayin he can hit out to scram range the b-thon is obviously gonna hav null fitted.
Take the fight to 500m and **** him. Whats the problem ?


Er..and by what will you make the thron unable to simply switch the ammo?

Hllaxiu
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.08.03 14:21:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Soros
By sayin he can hit out to scram range the b-thon is obviously gonna hav null fitted.
Take the fight to 500m and **** him. Whats the problem ?


Null in blasters works better than anything you can put in an autocannon at 500m... I don't really see how this changes anything though, blaster boats are night useless now, and will likely continue to be a rare sight outside of ganking miners with the aid of a covert.

Twilight Moon
Minmatar
Tague Corp
Posted - 2006.08.03 14:27:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Twilight Moon on 03/08/2006 14:29:07

Tempest model was minging anyway, I flew one for about 3 hours before I re-sold it, I really couldnt stand to look at it any longer. At least the Maelstorm will be eye-candy even if I will relegate it to 0.0 NPCing duties. Very Happy

Looks before usefulness all the way baby.

Lucre
STK Scientific
Black-Out
Posted - 2006.08.03 14:29:00 - [7]
 

Matari have the same problem as the Amarr - new BS either renders the old one pointless or else isn't worth using.

I like the argument that Tempest and Maelstrom should be optimised for artillery and autocannon respectively - or quite possibly vice versa. Give the Tempest what it needs to be a fair match for the Hyperion in a close-range duel. And give the Maelstrom what it needs for an artillery fleet action - which probably means a some combo of damage bonus, tracking bonus, or resist bonus (shield or armour - both could work).

Amarr don't have the same short/long range disparity - but do have a damage type issue. So yes, make the Abaddon a missile/drone boat.

Mike Yagon
Minmatar
The Nest
Posted - 2006.08.03 14:32:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Guurzak
Let's start with the assumption that the Maelstrom is a better artillery platform than the Tempest. If it isn't, then the Mael not only fails in its designed role but has no role at all, since the devs have made it clear that the Mael is intended as a one-trick pony: if it can't do that trick, it's completely worthless.


What we know of the Mael right now is that it is failing that. Razz It needs to use its midslots to tank and snipe, and it's not getting enough slots from the sounds of it. Hence, a fair amount of people are concerned that it has already failed its goal.

Sarmaul
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.08.03 14:33:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Soros
By sayin he can hit out to scram range the b-thon is obviously gonna hav null fitted.
Take the fight to 500m and **** him. Whats the problem ?


The fact that autocannons track worse than blasters for starters, that both ships will be webbed so the traversal will be virtually none, and that blasters will rip the tempest to shreds before he breaks your shield at those ranges.

The way for a tempest to beat a blasterthron was to sit at 15-20km and slowly chip away at it. With T2 ammo this was made almost impossible, and now gallente will be getting the hyperion, a ship which will apparently be very agile the tempest doesn't really stand a chance.

The big issue is warp scramble range - unless you decide to invest in a set of pimp scramblers (and the game really shouldn't be balanced around that) you have to stay inside 20km.

The other "win button" to help the pest vs blasterships is the multispec which we're not holding out much hopes for it remaining in its current form. Oh, there was also the 2 nos as well, but they're getting a nerf too.

Twilight Moon
Minmatar
Tague Corp
Posted - 2006.08.03 14:40:00 - [10]
 

Would a Typhoon be able to beat the Hyperion?

Sarmaul
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.08.03 14:44:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Twilight Moon
Would a Typhoon be able to beat the Hyperion?


I'm hoping so.

Guurzak
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.08.03 14:44:00 - [12]
 

What's the answer to the scramble range problem? Having blaster victory range >= scramble range at the battleship scale is obviously a balance problem for the ACpest. On the other hand, making longer-range scramblers readily available to fix that imbalance creates many new balance problems of its own on the frigate/cruise scale.

Here's one option: Give every battlecruiser or smaller an innate 0.9 warp stabilizer. Leave battleships at 0.0. Create a new battleship-class, longer range (50km?) warp disruptor with a 0.1 scramble rating and battleship grade powergrid requirements. This would let battleships scramble each other from much farther away, while leaving the existing balance untouched for smaller ships. I don't see any other way to make it work besides scrapping T2 ammo altogether (which has its merits but seems unlikely.)


Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.08.03 14:54:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 03/08/2006 14:54:55
Originally by: Lucre
Matari have the same problem as the Amarr - new BS either renders the old one pointless or else isn't worth using.

I like the argument that Tempest and Maelstrom should be optimised for artillery and autocannon respectively - or quite possibly vice versa. Give the Tempest what it needs to be a fair match for the Hyperion in a close-range duel. And give the Maelstrom what it needs for an artillery fleet action - which probably means a some combo of damage bonus, tracking bonus, or resist bonus (shield or armour - both could work).



tuning mass and speed of the tempest so that it can take advantage of the speed mods, while giving a dmg + shield hp increase bonus to the maelstorm is a nice start.

tempest becomes fast and the maelstorm becomes more durable.

it is just a start however, and it doesn't change the situation as much.

Hllaxiu
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.08.03 15:38:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Soros
By sayin he can hit out to scram range the b-thon is obviously gonna hav null fitted.
Take the fight to 500m and **** him. Whats the problem ?


The fact that autocannons track worse than blasters for starters, that both ships will be webbed so the traversal will be virtually none, and that blasters will rip the tempest to shreds before he breaks your shield at those ranges.

The way for a tempest to beat a blasterthron was to sit at 15-20km and slowly chip away at it. With T2 ammo this was made almost impossible, and now gallente will be getting the hyperion, a ship which will apparently be very agile the tempest doesn't really stand a chance.

The big issue is warp scramble range - unless you decide to invest in a set of pimp scramblers (and the game really shouldn't be balanced around that) you have to stay inside 20km.

The other "win button" to help the pest vs blasterships is the multispec which we're not holding out much hopes for it remaining in its current form. Oh, there was also the 2 nos as well, but they're getting a nerf too.


But heres the problem: How do you balance a bunch of ships that are all going to engage each other with different weapon systems and different tanking at more or less the same range? The Raven deals the same damage from 40km-0km, Amarr do pretty well from 10km up to 30km, Minmatar from 10km-30km and the Gallente from 0-15km. If the ranges were opened up there'd be far more room for each design type to have their own envelope where they do very well. Problem is that the only way to keep someone from closing to 10km of you is to kill them, be in a Rapier/Huginn, or rely on your friend with a mindlink (still only 13km or so), and disruptors only work out to 20km. As a result all the ranges overlap and you get a mess where the person with the most DPS on target wins - this is usually the Megathron (got in range) or Raven (always in range) when discounting ECM and nos... When counting ECM and nos its whoever brings the most and gets lucky fastest (or is in the Dominix and pressed the "attack" button before jammed).

Hllaxiu
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.08.03 15:39:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Twilight Moon
Would a Typhoon be able to beat the Hyperion?


Assuming that 4x AC, 4x Siege fitted...

Renox
Gallente
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.08.03 15:44:00 - [16]
 

a ship like the hyperion is a very specialized ship. I mean look at the boni. Yeah, I know they are looking into it and giving it another bonus. Then there's the short locking range. It can be helped, but will waste slots on that compared to a mega or tempest. Sure one on one it might win, but the other ships are more versitile and thus still have a large role in most situations.

Bigben
Kronloyal
Posted - 2006.08.03 15:46:00 - [17]
 

if the mealstrom had a + 5 damage to proj skil per level it would be less useless then it is


 

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