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Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.08.02 17:04:00 - [1]
 


Ok, after reading the latest tuxford blog, I think Maelstrom is basicly doomed to fail. Nuff said, really.

Hyperion with a mass reduction bonus will enable it to be really fast, specially fitted with those new internal stabilizers that decrease mass even more. And with that kind of damage up close, well, lets just say Im not taking my minmatar skills to battleship level until we have a proper battleship.

I have no idea why he doesnt say one word about the Rohk. Guess he feels its fine.

Add your comments please, always nice to see what people think.

Martyr 01
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.08.02 17:18:00 - [2]
 

"Maelstrom med slots, the argument I've seen so far is that it needs at least 3 slots for speed mod, webbie and a scrambler, anything less than 4 slots is too little to tank with. I recognize that logic but we intend the Maelstrom to be a shield tanking artillery boat, relying on other ships to tackle for you."

That made me want to cry.

Even if you consider it as solely an artillery boat how exactly does less than 7 slots make a viable long range + tank setup when you're using weps that need at least 1 but preferably 2 tracking comps to be effective and 1 to 3 sensor boosters to lock anything?

So imo even when forgetting about autos it still needs 7 mids to be effective, or it just becomes a confused tempest.

Confused

inSpirAcy
The Solopwnmobiles
Asomat Drive Yards
Posted - 2006.08.02 17:18:00 - [3]
 

I'm still dubious over how the Hyperion's bonus is useful in any practical sense. Give me a ship that does decent damage and a lot of spare lows and I'm just going to tank it to high heaven.

I can't think of any situations where I'd rather be zipping around (which, quite frankly, the Megathron does well enough at the expense of a lot of cap) than properly tanked. I'd rather get the warp point right in the first place if I'm that far away. An oversized Vagabond? I'd rather have a Vagabond, I can't see this thing's practicality coming close to it. Neutral

Agreed on the Maelstrom. I can see even fewer reasons to fly that thing...

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.08.02 17:19:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 02/08/2006 17:21:23
about the maelstorm:

instead a shield boosting bonus, add a shield HP ammount bonus?

let's say 10% per level?
Switching the RoF bonus for a straight damage bonus is interesting, but as Sarmaul (?) pointed out, 7000 alpha dmg with quake seems a bit unbalanced.


about the hyperion, I wonder how unbalanced it would be to have a RoF + dmg bonus? Hllaxiu posted a graph in the hyperion discussion thread, and near 1600hp in DOT is a pretty impressive. The graph also shows that even with a RoF bonus the ship gets oudamaged by everything at 15km and up.

Hllaxiu's numbers might not be correct however.

Dixon
Caldari
Hells Donkeys
Posted - 2006.08.02 17:21:00 - [5]
 

Why is the Maelstrom doomed? Did you put some bad voodoo on it?

Valea Silpha
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2006.08.02 17:23:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Valea Silpha on 02/08/2006 17:23:03
I dunno why he bothered talking about the mael since he jsut confirmed that it'll have too few mids to make it useable.

A long range ship that will use most of its slots to extend range further but still gets a shield boost amount bonus rather than anything else. Even like a lock range bonus or sensor strength bonus would be more practical.

Kyguard
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.02 17:23:00 - [7]
 

All I gathered is that Tux wants amarr to fail! We even promised him to stop using slaves to pedal our ships to warp, but he refused Neutral

Sarmaul
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.08.02 17:24:00 - [8]
 

My thoughts:

1) If the Maelstrom only needs 6 mids to be effective then so does the Rokh as they do exactly the same thing (except of course, the Rokh will no doubt get larger shields to begin and it's resistance bonus will fit perfectly for fleets)

2) With the Maelstrom replacing the Tempest for fleet and the Hyperion being able to dish out **** loads of DPS and move faster than the Tempest, we have just made 1 battleship redundant.

3) Same goes the Megathron really - Rokh will out-class it for fleet, Hyperion for close-range.

4) Gank battlecruisers = good. Thank you tux! Just don't give the Minmatar one an optimal range bonus.

5) I'm so glad I'm nearly fulled skilled for the phoon now that the pest is going to be made useless (especially with an ecm + nos nerf).

Soraya Silvermoon
State Protectorate
Posted - 2006.08.02 17:31:00 - [9]
 

we need 7 mids!!!

Merv Tring
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.08.02 17:36:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Merv Tring on 02/08/2006 17:37:44
Summary of the Mael part: "I know the shield boosting bonus is crap. It was crap on the Moa and we changed it. We hate Minmatar though so you get the crap bonus. Huhu. Also I have no idea how to fit long range ships."

EDIT: And what was that about Assault missiles needing more grid but less CPU? Are they changing the assault launchers (removing a decently effective anti-frig weapon from cruisers) or are they adding a whole new launcher?

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.08.02 17:36:00 - [11]
 

and yes, maelstorm needs 7 mids

Dixon
Caldari
Hells Donkeys
Posted - 2006.08.02 17:46:00 - [12]
 

could someone please tell me why you NEED 7 mids as opposed to 'would like to have'.

8-6-6
High - guns
Med - 2x SBII, cap injector, X-large SB, 2x invul II
Lows - 3x gyroII, 3x tracking enhancer II

no good? need more? Why?

and please realize that fitting the Rokh will probably be like wrestling an aligator... I mean 8x 425IIs on a caldari ship is going to need some RCUs or PDUs atleast

FFGR
Maza Nostra
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:05:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Sarmaul
My thoughts:

1) If the Maelstrom only needs 6 mids to be effective then so does the Rokh as they do exactly the same thing (except of course, the Rokh will no doubt get larger shields to begin and it's resistance bonus will fit perfectly for fleets)

2) With the Maelstrom replacing the Tempest for fleet and the Hyperion being able to dish out **** loads of DPS and move faster than the Tempest, we have just made 1 battleship redundant.

3) Same goes the Megathron really - Rokh will out-class it for fleet, Hyperion for close-range.

4) Gank battlecruisers = good. Thank you tux! Just don't give the Minmatar one an optimal range bonus.

5) I'm so glad I'm nearly fulled skilled for the phoon now that the pest is going to be made useless (especially with an ecm + nos nerf).


1) I quite like the idea of Maelstorm having 7 mids and the Rokh having 6.

4) It had been already said tons of times by a number of people that they will be more geared towards ganking, with less tanking capabilities. It would be kind of sad having the same flavour of ships in the same class, just one beeing better than the other

5) The usual Minnie ship ... 1m sp to fly it, 100m sp to fly it the way it must be flown Laughing

Valea Silpha
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:09:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Valea Silpha on 02/08/2006 18:09:38
Originally by: Dixon
could someone please tell me why you NEED 7 mids as opposed to 'would like to have'.

8-6-6
High - guns
Med - 2x SBII, cap injector, X-large SB, 2x invul II
Lows - 3x gyroII, 3x tracking enhancer II

no good? need more? Why?

and please realize that fitting the Rokh will probably be like wrestling an aligator... I mean 8x 425IIs on a caldari ship is going to need some RCUs or PDUs atleast


And fitting 8x 1400II on a matari ship isn't going to need fitting mods ?

You can't effectively fit a close range set-up on the mael becuase its just not suited for it, so you basically need to use 1400's. Then remember the tracking sucks HARD so using it outside of a sleet is pointless. Inside of a fleet, fitting an active tank is pointless because you either get instapopped or don't get shot, plus lag causes problems.

Dixon
Caldari
Hells Donkeys
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:18:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Valea Silpha
Edited by: Valea Silpha on 02/08/2006 18:09:38
Originally by: Dixon
could someone please tell me why you NEED 7 mids as opposed to 'would like to have'.

8-6-6
High - guns
Med - 2x SBII, cap injector, X-large SB, 2x invul II
Lows - 3x gyroII, 3x tracking enhancer II

no good? need more? Why?

and please realize that fitting the Rokh will probably be like wrestling an aligator... I mean 8x 425IIs on a caldari ship is going to need some RCUs or PDUs atleast


And fitting 8x 1400II on a matari ship isn't going to need fitting mods ?

You can't effectively fit a close range set-up on the mael becuase its just not suited for it, so you basically need to use 1400's. Then remember the tracking sucks HARD so using it outside of a sleet is pointless. Inside of a fleet, fitting an active tank is pointless because you either get instapopped or don't get shot, plus lag causes problems.

Well if you don't need an active tank then you can slap a few tracking computers in the medslots and use the free lows for fitting mods. But if the fittings from the outdated t3 are anything to go by (and I'm not saying they are) the Mael will have no problems fitting 1400's.

Still haven't heard why you NEED that 7th med...

Sarmaul
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:23:00 - [16]
 

Because a 3 slot active tank in a fleet fight is absolutely useless?

Valea Silpha
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:25:00 - [17]
 

A 3 slot active tank in pretty much any situation is pretty pointless tbh ...

Dixon
Caldari
Hells Donkeys
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:25:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Sarmaul
Because a 3 slot active tank in a fleet fight is absolutely useless?


I'd like to see a tank that's not useless in fleet battles...

Merv Tring
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:25:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Merv Tring on 02/08/2006 18:31:52
Originally by: Dixon
Still haven't heard why you NEED that 7th med...
For the same reason that the Rokh does. Although if one listens to you the Rokh should probably get 6 lows, so it can use fitting mods and get a full rack on.

Originally by: Dixon
I'd like to see a tank that's not useless in fleet battles...
With EM/Thermal/Invul field tank, the Rokh will get all resists over 70%. That ship is taking 25% less damage than any other BS with the same tank, and survives 25% longer. That could mean another salvo or two with rails, or even survival depending on the scale of the engagement. No active tank in the world will save you at any scale above a few ships per side.

Wat0721
United Systems of the Allegiance
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:27:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Dixon
Originally by: Sarmaul
Because a 3 slot active tank in a fleet fight is absolutely useless?


I'd like to see a tank that's not useless in fleet battles...

Here's one.

</OT>

Dixon
Caldari
Hells Donkeys
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:31:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Merv Tring
Originally by: Dixon
Still haven't heard why you NEED that 7th med...
For the same reason that the Rokh does. Although if one listens to you the Rokh should probably get 6 lows, so it can use fitting mods and get a full rack on.


oh dear god...

Well I just asked as a person that doesn't ever fly minmatar. And if you don't have better answers than 'omg look at the rokh' there really isn't a point to this.

So screw this, give the maelstrom 5% resist bonus and 10% optimal for large hybrid and ofcourse 7 meds... now ain't that balance for ya

Sarmaul
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:33:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Dixon
Originally by: Sarmaul
Because a 3 slot active tank in a fleet fight is absolutely useless?


I'd like to see a tank that's not useless in fleet battles...


Shield extenders and invuls or crap-loads of plates. In a fleet fight you need to be able to absorb a lot of damage in a very short space of time, which makes hitpoint/passive tanks actually viable as opposed to active tanks which are all about tanking a steady stream of damage. If the Rokh gets 7 mids, it will be able to run 2 large extenders, 2 invuls and get another 25% shield resists from the ship bonus. It won't need a single tracking module as it can reach over 200km just with Caldari BS 5 and Spike ammo.

The Maelstrom on the other hand will still be needing sensor boosters, tracking computers and damage mods (and more than likely a fitting mod). For a ship that is supposedly designed as a tanked artillery platform it fails in almost every single way.

Serapis Aote
Minmatar
TBC
VENOM Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:34:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Dixon


Still haven't heard why you NEED that 7th med...


Because if they are designing the thing for fleet engagements then the boost bonus is useless...

So to take full advantage of the bonus for small medium gangs you need more then 3 slots for a proper tank given all the other stuff that is essential that goes into mids.

after your tank you are left with 2 slots. 1 for an ab and and 1 for something else. That is not enough. 1 more slot makes it just right.

Merv Tring
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:36:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Dixon
oh dear god...

Well I just asked as a person that doesn't ever fly minmatar. And if you don't have better answers than 'omg look at the rokh' there really isn't a point to this.

So screw this, give the maelstrom 5% resist bonus and 10% optimal for large hybrid and ofcourse 7 meds... now ain't that balance for ya
I admit I did not communicate my point, that being that neither ship needs 7 mids. However, the Mael is forced to use a shield tank unless we want to waste a bonus, and if we're going to be forced to use 4 slots for a decent tank we'd very much like a couple to play with.

Vader Crane
Minmatar
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:38:00 - [25]
 

and me who was dreaming about a AC ship that could tank ugh

Heartbreak Harriet
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:41:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Heartbreak Harriet on 02/08/2006 18:42:53
Edited by: Heartbreak Harriet on 02/08/2006 18:42:16
Sounds like the Maelstrom probably isn't getting another mid. Gonna be a shame to see such a sexy-looking ship go to waste. I honestly don't get the point of an active shield tanking artillery boat; it's kind of like giving an AC/missile BS that only has four turrets a bonus to optimal range. Sure, you can use both bonuses, but it's not the best way to apply the ship because of it's design. Come to think of it, that analogy is strangely familiar...

The Maelstrom isn't also going to have an unsually strong structural integrity for a Minmatar ship, is it?

EL TITAN
Caldari
Red Sky Morning
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:44:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Dixon
Originally by: Merv Tring
Originally by: Dixon
Still haven't heard why you NEED that 7th med...
For the same reason that the Rokh does. Although if one listens to you the Rokh should probably get 6 lows, so it can use fitting mods and get a full rack on.


oh dear god...

Well I just asked as a person that doesn't ever fly minmatar. And if you don't have better answers than 'omg look at the rokh' there really isn't a point to this.

So screw this, give the maelstrom 5% resist bonus and 10% optimal for large hybrid and ofcourse 7 meds... now ain't that balance for ya


tracking computers?

Dixon
Caldari
Hells Donkeys
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:45:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Merv Tring
Originally by: Dixon
oh dear god...

Well I just asked as a person that doesn't ever fly minmatar. And if you don't have better answers than 'omg look at the rokh' there really isn't a point to this.

So screw this, give the maelstrom 5% resist bonus and 10% optimal for large hybrid and ofcourse 7 meds... now ain't that balance for ya
I admit I did not communicate my point, that being that neither ship needs 7 mids. However, the Mael is forced to use a shield tank unless we want to waste a bonus, and if we're going to be forced to use 4 slots for a decent tank we'd very much like a couple to play with.


Believe me when I say that I feel you incoming pain, I've been flying a raven for a looong while now and I know how annoying it is to not have spare meds (and I also specced in amarr, so no free meds for me). But from what I've heard already from you ppl the Mael will need free meds to be of any use in medium-gangs, what does that make the raven?

The sheild tank that this bonus makes possible is going to be damn near unbreakable while cap lasts, and while I realize that guns (projectiles especially) need some form of med support like tracking computers or at least a web. But I still feel like Tux is doing the right thing here, this ship will have great damage and a massive tank... giving it 3 out of 3 might be too much.

Sarmaul
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:48:00 - [29]
 

Except it has quite poor dps and not enough slots to run the tank...

Soraya Silvermoon
State Protectorate
Posted - 2006.08.02 18:51:00 - [30]
 

7 slots because: 4 for tank, sensorbooster, cap injector web/scrambler.. autocannons

but as an AC boat I suspect it`ll suck anyway becaseu it`ll be to slow..

fleet: irrelevant as tanking is pointless and any imbalace between med/low will be sorted out by the pilot using tracking enhancers or tracking computers whatever slot is free..

only place I see this ship really outdo any of the others is npcing. (wich isnt that great tbh) and to really rock at it you`d like to have 7 slots full tank. but then again I dont know how much cap probs it`ll have so might have to use one slot for cap recharge anyway.





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