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Hydrian Alante
The Loot Company
Posted - 2006.08.10 03:06:00 - [61]
 

You really donīt need any faction gear to fly level IV missions solo.

I can do them all alone with stnadrad tech II stuff.
And a target Painter helps more than a 4th hardener.

Tyler Lowe
DROW Org
Brotherhood of the Spider
Posted - 2006.08.10 03:57:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Tyler Lowe on 10/08/2006 04:03:50
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 09/08/2006 19:47:41
Originally by: Tyler Lowe
Tech II only fitting:

6x Siege II
2x Dual Light Beam Laser II

1x Target Painter II
1x Large Shield Extender II
3x Invulnerability Field II
1x Large Shield Boost II

1x BCU II
4x PDS II

5x Medium Drones
5x Light Drones

Target paint battlecruisers and cruisers and pop them in 2 volleys. Target paint battleships and do as much damage per hit as a 2x BCU setup. Use the beams to help drones take down frigs *fast*.


Extenders on PvE setups make Baby Jesus cry. And nossies are a lot more useful than small guns in the spare highs. And with nos and a gist boosters you can exchange some of the PDUs for more BCUs and a potentially life-saving damage control. And lastly target painting Battleships does not change the damage against Battleships at all, while two painters allow you to kill all cruisers up to around 80K bounty (and even some higher ones if they have a large sig) in just one volley.

As for Precision vs Javelins, assuming the Guided missile precision skill at 4, a cruiser with a sig radius of 125m takes 203.125 base damage from Precision cruise and 187.5 from Javelin torps. That is an 8.3% difference, not 45%. Add a target painter which every mission running torp Raven should have and the damage is almost equal. Add a second painter and the Javs are superior. Just like against anything bigger than a cruiser, and in the frequent occasions where you hit enemies while they MWD towards you. (I am purposefully neglecting the rate of fire difference here as that one second is usually lost in target switching anyway).
So while Precisions might have a small edge in theory, in practice Javelins pwn.


Ignoring the vulgarity in the first statement, extenders are a buffer. They are a cheap fit cpu wise for what they accomplish. 6 siege isn't about to fit on a Raven with 2 nos without fitting mods, and aside from this, I rarely need to activate my shield boost as is. NPC battleships have a smaller target sig than a torp's explosion radius typically, so there is, point in fact, an increase in damage. Tell you what though. I'll happily continue soloing level 4's all wrong, because if there's a way to make it easier than sitting still at the warp in point obliterating anything that locks you so fast you don't need to hit your shield boost, I don't want to know about it.

<edit>
Oh, and the entire point of the fitting offered was to avoid spending a billion credits on a ship, so the Gistii mods really don't work with that theme. Nice as they are, they're not neccesary. Level 4 mission running is more about how much you know about the mission, than how much you spend on your ship.

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2006.08.10 07:39:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 10/08/2006 07:39:29
I did not mean to be vulgar, if that baby jesus phrase is vulgar I apologize, thought it was just a way to poke fun at someone doing something the wrong way (english is not my native language). And you really don't need the buffer you get from the extender in PvE at all. That is a PvP fitting element misplaced in a PvE fit, and such a fitting error seems funny to me seeing how so many PvPers think of themselves as something better than the mission runners. The only Battleship I would fit extenders on is a passive tanked Rattlesnake.

Alas, of course being able to simply 'do' lvl4s does not require even a T2 fitting. Not even a Battleship or HAC, you can do many of them in AFs and BCs. But the ship & fitting is what determines how fast and convenient you can do them. To me, how fast I get to the interesting part, the looting. And your fitting is certainly on the slow side of things.

But of course everyone is free to make it harder for themselves if that is more fun. It is also less people to drive up the price of the good stuff :)

Lord Drachenfels
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.10 08:21:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Lord Drachenfels on 10/08/2006 08:21:47
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 10/08/2006 07:39:29
I did not mean to be vulgar, if that baby jesus phrase is vulgar I apologize, thought it was just a way to poke fun at someone doing something the wrong way (english is not my native language). And you really don't need the buffer you get from the extender in PvE at all. That is a PvP fitting element misplaced in a PvE fit, and such a fitting error seems funny to me seeing how so many PvPers think of themselves as something better than the mission runners. The only Battleship I would fit extenders on is a passive tanked Rattlesnake.

Alas, of course being able to simply 'do' lvl4s does not require even a T2 fitting. Not even a Battleship or HAC, you can do many of them in AFs and BCs. But the ship & fitting is what determines how fast and convenient you can do them. To me, how fast I get to the interesting part, the looting. And your fitting is certainly on the slow side of things.

But of course everyone is free to make it harder for themselves if that is more fun. It is also less people to drive up the price of the good stuff :)


The debate regarding shield extenders vs shield boost amps are very old and some people prefers the first and some the other but I have never seen anyone come up with the proof of what would be the better fitting! Razz
I myself prefer the Shield ext instead of the shield boost amp as you increase your passive tank with the shield ext Cool
My med slots are: 3 x active hardeners, large shield extender, cap recharge and XL shield booster.
All tech 2 Wink And it is working perfectly for me Very Happy

Shinshi Casoyako
Posted - 2006.08.10 10:03:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Ohmy Fugod

This is to answer the rest of you guys:
<snip>



A small reply to all what has been said below this quote.

Refitting: If you try and do the vengeance mission in your all cruise setup and 5 mil relevant skills in the guristas version you probably will not make it. Also even with a good kite and your gist setup some tripple BS + loads of cruisers waves are not doable if you do not warp out or refit so you can drop the BS down first. Refitting takes 5 minutes at most and if you do it once every day and do it for one month (aka 31 days its 2 hours and 35 minutes) which cost you what? Just make your insta dock at your homebase if you didnt do that allready.

The Gist-X cost you 400 mil. Howlong did it take to grind this item together? Lets say you make 5 mil an hour flat without and 7,5 mil with the item. To get to 1000 mil isk you would spend 200 hours without and 213 hours with the item to get to 1 bil. Break even would be at 300 hours. Meaning 1,5 bil isk. So after you earned 1,5 bil isk you will have your investment back in terms of time. Up to you if you find this a worthwhile investment for a starting mission grinder.

The drone issue. You use the drone damage type that is best against your enemy. Guristas take kinetic damage so you use kinetic drones against them. If you argue that the damage modifier is more important than your wrong. In pvp when you dont know how a ship is tanked you use the one that does generally most damage. But if you know that the NPC rat tanks thermal than you dont use thermal against them. 2/2/1 drone setup is more versatile and the 5 seconds it takes for the heavy drone to reach the target doesnt make the 0/5/0 setup do more damage. 2 heavy drones on a cruiser almost beats 5 medium drones on a cruiser. Put the meds and scout on a frigate and the heavies on a cruiser for even more optimal damage output.

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2006.08.10 11:05:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 10/08/2006 11:17:58
Originally by: Lord Drachenfels

The debate regarding shield extenders vs shield boost amps are very old and some people prefers the first and some the other but I have never seen anyone come up with the proof of what would be the better fitting! Razz
I myself prefer the Shield ext instead of the shield boost amp as you increase your passive tank with the shield ext Cool



If there was a debate for me, it would be between an additional hardener or a painter and an extender, not an amp. This comparison with a painter is kinda hard to quantify, but enemy ruisers dieing much faster reduces incoming DPS as well as finishes the mission faster, so I find it much more desireable than a few more shield HP. Comparing with an additional hardener is easy though. Due to the comparably bad base shield recharge rate combined with relatively high base shield strength, the addition of an extender does not affect the passive recharge nearly as much as on a BC. On the other hand, a 3rd 55% hardener reduces incoming damage of one type by 31.35%, giving A Raven with like 7500 shields effectively 2350ish more shield HP, while you get some 2700 from a T2 Extender. But the hardener also increases the effective HP gained by each shield boost in that manner, which the extender does not. So after just 2 XL-boosts you make up the gap, and the more you boost after that the more useful the hardener becomes over the extender. And the added resistance definitely helps your tank more than the slight boost to passive tanking. The advantage of the hardener is very big against rather singular damage NPCs like Guristas and Sanshas, and less against dual damage guys like Blood and Serpentis as well as multiple damage ones like Angels. But even with Invul fields, you get a 17% boost to efective shield HP both on the base HP and the boost amount, so after like 10 boosts the Invul field is better than the extender. And I am pretty sure in most missions you will use your booster more than 10 times.
The only point to shield extenders on battleships is PvP. You can't properly tank against specific damage types, so hardeners are less effective, and full passive tanks allow you to have a big buffer and to laugh at nossers. But mixing passive and active tanking in PvE, however comfortable you feel with it, is extremely inefficient.

Originally by: Lord Drachenfels
My med slots are: 3 x active hardeners, large shield extender, cap recharge and XL shield booster.
All tech 2 Wink And it is working perfectly for me Very Happy


If you think that works perfectly, you really have a very very strange idea of perfection. I don't think you are aware of what a Gist-boosted target-painting Javelin Raven can do?
Then again I guess there are people IRL too who enjoy cruising along the autobahn in a Fiat with 80 kph more than using a Ferrari at 250 kph. To each his own.

Lord Drachenfels
Caldari
Posted - 2006.08.10 12:05:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Leandro Salazar


If there was a debate for me... (snip)

I personally would never buy Faction modules! For the prize of one Gist XL shield booster i could buy a complete tech 2 fittet raven.. And one shield booster does not matter that much! I am very aware of the fact that increasing your DPS is a way of tanking.. IMO a very insecure one as there are not room for many errors Razz The extra shield has saved me many times when all enemies have aggroed and the massive DPS dealt by the rats have been way more than any shield booster can cope with.. It buys time to kill the warp scrampling rats and get away.. In fact it leaves room so you are not punished (so much) for your errors and if you are perfect and never makes any errors then good for you most people are just not built that way.. Razz
Besides that I think you need an attitude adjustment towards other peoples opinions ugh
I personally have a very defensive setup (Lows: 4 x PDU II and one good named Damage control) I know that! But that does not make it wrong! You just prefer a more aggresive setup and that is nice for you!
Besides i would be very sad if i lost my Navy Raven Razz

Ohmy Fugod
Posted - 2006.08.10 12:37:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Ohmy Fugod on 11/08/2006 03:24:54

  • The Gist B-Type XL


  • Originally by: Shinshi Casoyako
    The Gist-X cost you 400 mil. Howlong did it take to grind this item together? Lets say you make 5 mil an hour flat without and 7,5 mil with the item. To get to 1000 mil isk


    - First, I said Gist B-Type, where you're right, it's 400m. The Gist X-Type is the one that's about 900m. I don't think the whole setup even gets so close to the billion.

    - Second, I explained how I got the cash back in the first page of this thread, a couple posts below the original. Even clarified the faction Nos and boost amp came afterwards.

    - Third, I strongly recommended to get it, never said you couldn't run lvl 4's without it!. Where did you guys take that from??Very Happy

  • Drones


  • Originally by: Shinshi Casoyako
    You use the drone damage type that is best [..] Guristas take kinetic damage so you use kinetic drones against them.


    - Guristas frigs got the same resist % vs either thermal or kinetic. Also thermal drones deal about 15% more dmg than kinetic. So if the resist gap isn't larger than that, thermal's are still going to hurt the most. If it's about the same or a little biased towards kinetic, why bother to bring kinetic drones if the difference won't matter much anyway?
    Besides, gaps with other types widen a LOT.

    - Also, frigs are drones' #1 targets, those you pretty much never put a launcher on.

    Originally by: Shinshi Casoyako
    2/2/1 drone setup is more versatile and the 5 seconds it takes for the heavy drone to reach the target doesnt make the 0/5/0 setup do more damage.


    - Let's say Hammerheads deal 20dps and T2, 30dps. Ogres are exactly twice as that, without having the crappier tracking and larger sig resolution taken into account. So let's even ignore that and say:

    5 seconds * 2 ogres * 40dps (1 ogre = 2 hammers)= 400dmg loss. That's almost a frig, just because them ogres like to take their time. I humbly believe that's unacceptable.

    Originally by: Shinshi Casoyako
    2 heavy drones on a cruiser almost beats 5 medium drones on a cruiser


    - Where does this figure come from? Math wise, 2 heavies are exactly 4 mediums. And not to mention cruisers usually orbit farther than frigates, meaning an even longer arrival time and thus dps loss. As I said in my post, 2 meds, 2 heavies and 1 light equals 6 meds and a half. But 4 of those meds take too long to get anywhere, don't track as good and deal almost half dmg to frigs.

    Should I be flying a Dominix instead, with 5 heavies, then *that* would be worth sending vs. cruisers.

    Otherwise, and after doing the math, taking sig radius into account, and testing it thouroughly, 5 mediums are the best dps ratio vs drone's regular targets.

  • Refitting


  • Originally by: Shinshi Casoyako
    Refitting: If you try and do the vengeance mission in your all cruise setup and 5 mil relevant skills in the guristas version you probably will not make it. Also even with a good kite and your gist setup some tripple BS + loads of cruisers waves are not doable if you do not warp out or refit so you can drop the BS down first. Refitting takes 5 minutes at most.


    - I tanked Gs.Ext. bonus room each time I did it. That's 6 bs's, including a fat one, 3-4 ferox, 2 sentries, and a s**tload of frigs and dessies. Also tanked Angel pirate invasion, the 2 heavy bs spawns (7-9 bs's + 5-6 bc's + 4-5 cruisers) whole without an issue. Never a problem. Yeah, it was scary at first, still, no need to warp out. If you're around Aramachi, I'll let you know the next time if you want to come take a look :-)

    - I wish it took 5 minutes. Even with the accel gates dropping you right above the next one, that's at least 15 mins. Go ahead and time it bro :-)

    - Hey but if a particular mission justifies it, in a way the isk/hour ratio would actually be improved, I'd do that. Otherwise, not even by chance :-p

    Still owe you more answers, outta time tho Sad

    Leandro Salazar
    Quam Singulari
    Posted - 2006.08.10 12:51:00 - [69]
     

    Okay, you do have a point. Heres a disclaimer: If you are careless, lazy or stupid, or any combination of these, do not use any PvE setups I propose. They assume a competent and careful user who knows exactly what he is doing and does not make stupid mistakes. (Though a gist booster usually carries you even thru stupid mistakes)

    If you have a defensive approach, thats fine. But it is neither perfect nor efficient. It is just fitting your style. Which is nothing bad, but seems wrong to a perfectionist like me. So please bear with me if I lack empathy for inefficent safety setups.

    And really, if you fly a Navy Raven but do not use faction mods, it is YOU who has an attitude problem :P

    Tyler Lowe
    DROW Org
    Brotherhood of the Spider
    Posted - 2006.08.10 13:40:00 - [70]
     

    Originally by: Leandro Salazar
    Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 10/08/2006 07:39:29
    I did not mean to be vulgar, if that baby jesus phrase is vulgar I apologize, thought it was just a way to poke fun at someone doing something the wrong way (english is not my native language). And you really don't need the buffer you get from the extender in PvE at all. That is a PvP fitting element misplaced in a PvE fit, and such a fitting error seems funny to me seeing how so many PvPers think of themselves as something better than the mission runners. The only Battleship I would fit extenders on is a passive tanked Rattlesnake.

    Alas, of course being able to simply 'do' lvl4s does not require even a T2 fitting. Not even a Battleship or HAC, you can do many of them in AFs and BCs. But the ship & fitting is what determines how fast and convenient you can do them. To me, how fast I get to the interesting part, the looting. And your fitting is certainly on the slow side of things.

    But of course everyone is free to make it harder for themselves if that is more fun. It is also less people to drive up the price of the good stuff :)


    Open your mind, just a tiny amount, and you may see that fitting a ship differently from what you have determined as ideal for your playstyle and skillset, doesn't make it wrong, or mistaken.

    FireFoxx80
    Caldari
    Caldari Provisions
    Posted - 2006.08.10 13:42:00 - [71]
     

    Looks good so far. I think the main flames are cruise-vs-torpedos, and officer-vs-T2. The rest (target painters-vs-tanking, etc) are all elementary as they wholly rely on skills.

    Those two non-launcher slots. I notmally mount:
    1x Heavy Nosferatu
    1x Medium Beam Laser II (Microwave)

    Both have an optimal of around 20km, and the beam laser is a useful last-ditch defence against scrambling frigs or things that get too close.

    Sylaan
    Caldari
    Rakeriku
    Otaku Invasion
    Posted - 2006.08.10 13:53:00 - [72]
     

    Edited by: Sylaan on 10/08/2006 13:53:58
    Damn double posts.

    Sylaan
    Caldari
    Rakeriku
    Otaku Invasion
    Posted - 2006.08.10 13:54:00 - [73]
     

    Originally by: Shinshi Casoyako

    Refitting: If you try and do the vengeance mission in your all cruise setup and 5 mil relevant skills in the guristas version you probably will not make it.


    That's because you use the wrong approach for the final rat, Rachen. Yes, he has an insane tank. But that's not why he is so hard. It's because of his defenders, he fires them like crazy. What you need to do is get close. I personally use an AB, get close to him and once I am within 15km or so his defenders are useless. Then he goes down fast.

    Shinshi Casoyako
    Posted - 2006.08.10 13:57:00 - [74]
     

    Originally by: Ohmy Fugod
    Edited by: Ohmy Fugod on 10/08/2006 13:03:44

  • The Gist B-Type XL


  • Mistype on the X-factor. You do put it up as tips for raven pilots

  • Drones

  • The how to use your drones calculation =)

    Disclaimer: We do only use our drones if they are out of harms way so we dont use signature radius. We also do not take in account skills for these are the same for heavy as for medium bonus-wise

    Guristas rat is orbitting at 15km and has 120 shield 120 armor points: tanked 40% kin 60% therm on shield and 25% kin and 40% therm on armor. (I could not find the resistances site but I believe this is common for guristas rats)

    5 Hammerheads
    30 dps
    1,6 modifier to damage
    0,6 rad tracking
    1400 flight time
    RoF is 2 seconds

    10 seconds flight time. Engage time = 120/ (30 * 1,6 * 0,4) + 120/ (30 * 1,6 * 0,55)= 10,79 seconds total time 20,79 seconds

    5 Vespas
    30 dps
    1,45 modifier to damage
    0,68 rad tracking
    1600 flight time
    RoF is 2 seconds

    8,75 seconds flight time. Engage time = 120/ (30 * 1,45 * 0,6) + 120/ (30 * 1,45 * 0,75)= 8,32 seconds total time 17,07 seconds

    As you can see the difference 3,72 seconds of which 1,25 is based on speed and 2,47 is based on the tank of the rat. So even with a bonus of 1,6 to the damage you still get lower result due to tanking of the rat in question. And yes rats do have more than the base resistance. Lastly the 2/2/1 setup gives you 6 medium drones and a light drone (accourding to your own saying) and thus packs more fire power. In a battle with 12 cruisers flight time is a minimum when they are allready out into the open. Atleast if you handle your drones right.

  • Refitting


  • Warp out towards station 1 minutes, insta dock, refit 1 minute, undock, warp out to mission 2 minutes. 1 minute for lag etc. In a multiple step deadspace mission I can only say this. Those that need refitting have there gates pretty close to warp in and those that dont (extravaganza) require you to warp out anyways since you cannot hold enough cruise missiles to destroy all (I usually handle up to 4th gate with a near full belly) If you never have to warp out than I would love to have your cargohold.

    Shinshi Casoyako
    Posted - 2006.08.10 14:01:00 - [75]
     

    Originally by: Sylaan
    Originally by: Shinshi Casoyako

    Refitting: If you try and do the vengeance mission in your all cruise setup and 5 mil relevant skills in the guristas version you probably will not make it.


    That's because you use the wrong approach for the final rat, Rachen. Yes, he has an insane tank. But that's not why he is so hard. It's because of his defenders, he fires them like crazy. What you need to do is get close. I personally use an AB, get close to him and once I am within 15km or so his defenders are useless. Then he goes down fast.


    So you setup like OP but instead of a hardner you fit an afterburner. So in theory you say you fire cruise missiles, while tanking the sentries (which do hurt) the whole spawn, shooting at stuff so you leave rachen at the end, with afterburner setup you use through the whole mission? All I can say is that my m8's armor tanking apo had troubles tanking the spawn when we did it together last time. And he got this fetish about the tank of the apo =D Probs for being able to fly it like that.

    Sylaan
    Caldari
    Rakeriku
    Otaku Invasion
    Posted - 2006.08.10 14:21:00 - [76]
     

    Originally by: Shinshi Casoyako
    Originally by: Sylaan

    That's because you use the wrong approach for the final rat, Rachen. Yes, he has an insane tank. But that's not why he is so hard. It's because of his defenders, he fires them like crazy. What you need to do is get close. I personally use an AB, get close to him and once I am within 15km or so his defenders are useless. Then he goes down fast.


    So you setup like OP but instead of a hardner you fit an afterburner. So in theory you say you fire cruise missiles, while tanking the sentries (which do hurt) the whole spawn, shooting at stuff so you leave rachen at the end, with afterburner setup you use through the whole mission? All I can say is that my m8's armor tanking apo had troubles tanking the spawn when we did it together last time. And he got this fetish about the tank of the apo =D Probs for being able to fly it like that.


    Well, not exactly. You're right, sentries do hurt so that's why I take them out first. As soon as warp in I head towards them (only 1 AB pulse, I want to conserve cap). By the time I kill the 2 cruisers at warp in, I am in range. Yes, firing at the sentries will aggro everything but that's ok, I am tanked for ships damage (kinetic,thermal) but not really for the sentries (which also do EM). So I want them dead ASAP. After that I take out all ships (drones on frigates, cruise missiles on Bs'es and frigates).

    When only Rachen is left I just activate AB, I get in ramge, he dies.

    The RepoMan
    Caldari
    Red Horizon Inc
    Red Horizon
    Posted - 2006.08.10 14:40:00 - [77]
     

    lol Ohmy your flame gave me endless laughs, never in my wildest dreams did I expect such a angry and ignorant response lol

    I thought the idea of this thread was to give valid advice, and you took it personally, I'm very sorry for you.

    Anyways, I realize there's people new to the game that dont yet have the knowhow to separate fact from fiction. I realize the general population thinks that most of what I do is impossible, and the few threads I've posted about l4's especially are met with harsh angry irrational flames.

    But, since my interest was in educating noobs of all skillpoint levels, I'll go over some of your concerns/flame:


    First, you attack the credibility of my skillpoint levels at the time I started doing l4 missions... Unfortunately evemon drops completed skills, unless there's a log somewhere I can find. Though really you said it yourself, the only level 5 skill I needed was missile launcher op, it was my second l5 I had at the time, the only other was instant recall. The only other big skill was of course caldari cruiser 4, when added together those skills are about 750k - Today, even as I train for new skills, I have 72k in elec, 167k in eng, and 58k in navigation. That leads to just over a million, and that's after more than a month of training in those areas. I know I didnt have engineering 4 at the time, not sure if I had electronics 4 at the time either, both of which are obvious skillpoint hotspots. I only had the very base skills required to fit my my equipment and fly the raven when I started. If I had known I would throw out the cruise nos setup within a few days I probably wouldnt have ever trained for that either. Flying with under a mil is most definately possible, I think my just over a mil skillpoint setup was a fine starting point.

    Next you have the brilliant fitting argument:

    Originally by: Ohmy Fugod
    Then you say you went with torps. Siege launchers have insane fitting requirements for an unskilled Raven. If you want hardeners, BCU and PDU, a regular shield booster and amp, then you simply won't be able to fit them unless you relinquish your NOS or train Electronics and Engineering nicely.


    To this day I cant fit nos with my arb sieges, and I wouldnt want to, as I said in the beginning it's not a good setup for a low sk/isk char. I currently have a drone link aug and 250mm autocannon (I know, laugh it up, it helps with the serp tacklers in wc, and is the only thing I can fit) in my non launcher slots. If I could fit 2 link augs I would, but even with a co-processor (which I still need to fit for the amps and booster) I cant. I left them empty back then.

    Annnd then you get more angry, call me a noob a couple times, then drop this steamy pile:


    Originally by: Ohmy Fugod
    This one's a straight lie. 6/7 Reloads to shoot down a bs with cruise missiles at lvl 3 is simply impossible unless you shut down your launchers, wait for their shields to recharge, and start launching again.
    ...Or if you have reloading set to manual and forget to reload.


    lol and I'm sure you know this because you've tried it, oh wait, you wouldnt even try until you could use t2 ammo! lol j/k that was low... but seriously dont try talking about something you have never done. Hell most bs's I couldnt even come close to breaking their tank. I ran out of ammo quite frequently, even when I filled my entirely cargo hold with it. It was extremely time consuming and tedious. I didnt do too many missions with cruises, so I really couldnt tell ya which bs's specifically gave me these problems, I know that taking down even a weak bs would take me a few clips, that even 600k-ish bs's sometimes popped back from the abyss and recharged enough shields to keep em alive for awhile even when they were at 20% struct. It was NOT fun. The usurper at the end of guristas extravaganza, which I ran on my third day, I almost gave up killing because he took so long to take down and kept going on boost sprees all the way through armor and struct.

    The RepoMan
    Caldari
    Red Horizon Inc
    Red Horizon
    Posted - 2006.08.10 14:41:00 - [78]
     

    Nexxt... wow character limit is tight on these boards =/

    Anyhoo, next on your angry flame of craziness you attack my counter to your "omg defenders!" argument with weapons of ... well honestly I dont know, it was just silly lol.

    Originally by: Ohmy Fugod
    This is a whole bunch of nonsense. You contradict yourself. If they target the farthest missile, then even more so the need to use the fastest missile, and even then, still the most likely that a slow torpedo will get caught by a defender. Another missinforming lie.


    Ok now lets backtrack a little bit, in my post I explained that npc defender missiles do not work exactly like player defenders, in that they target the furthest/newest missile and not the closest one; as player defender missiles do. I said that to clear up that their slower speed does not make them any more vulnerable to defenders in that case. I mean I didnt even mention your inane argument of rate of fire and whatnot... but I didnt want to make you look silly, I just wanted to clear up the most obvious omissions and oversights.

    Anyways, I honestly cant find a shred of correlation between my post and most of your arguments, so I have to read into it a bit to figure out why your panties are in such a bunch. I assume your outlook on this issue is due to you not knowing the first thing about defenders, so I'll break it down.

    Defenders do bout 76 damage, cruise missiles have something like 50 or 60 hp, so they tend to get popped by 1 defender. Torps however have 240hp. Now if it's not clear yet, 240 is in fact a bigger number than 76, by quite alot actually! Now we know that npcs dont exactly play by the rules, and it's possible that they could have super ultra mega defenders of doom (t2!). However in my experience, even against defender heavy opponents (which are pretty rare), I havent ever seen em take down one of my torps. It's imporant to remember that npcs fire their defenders in sequence with a decent activation pause inbetween, and they also fire them immediately upon your first shot. So if you have any sence you fire in sequence and it's unbelieveably unlikely you'll take more than 1 defender hit per torp, which obviously will not stop it.

    Hmmm what next... oh yeah, you went on a little rant about shield tanking which I couldnt make any sence whatsoever... and then seemed to tie shield tanking to skills or something... anyways, to re-iterate... you shield tank the same way regardless of skills, I have no clue what you meant in that paragraph.

    Hm next... lol honestly your stuff is so silly and hateful I feel bad actually forming an argument here lol... but what the hell, lets get to what you call:

    Originally by: Ohmy Fugod
    Pinnacle of lies.
    hahahahah... ah, priceless, I laughed for a good few minutes and grabbed a drink when I saw that.

    Anyways, that was referring to the time it's going to take me to get to those skills. I'm amazed that you happen to know my exact skill training regimen, and I certainly applaud your efforts. I could say it'll be years before I get to those skills and it could well be true, I just might not train those skills. However the best part is that that's not the case, and I do in fact plan to get most of those skills as soon as possible, as they do help a whole ton. My current evemon schedule, which doesnt include most of them, is 91 days, now going on that the average month is about 30 days, hmmm that looks kinda like 3 months to me. Though im no expert clearly.

    Now, just to humour you, I made up a quick plan with ONLY the "required" skills in it. 65d 10h. And that's taking the low end of what you said was required. Ie No t2 drones, where you said 3 or 4 I chose mostly 3 .etc

    Next. Blah char limit.

    The RepoMan
    Caldari
    Red Horizon Inc
    Red Horizon
    Posted - 2006.08.10 14:41:00 - [79]
     

    Originally by: Ohmy Fugod

    Originally by: The RepoMan
    And I'm quite sure that in many months I still wont have a gistii anything unless I loot it from worlds collide or guristas extravaganza.



    Another lie. Yet another piece of misinformation. It's extremely rare if not impossible to get gistii stuff from those usually dangerous missions.


    Ok... so it's not possible... but it's rare... hmmmmm... sure buddy.

    Originally by: Ohmy Fugod
    But you'd love them newbie raven pilots to accept them and probably lose their ships by going after something that isn't there, right?


    Nope, and might I add you have a pretty warped mind to think such a thing. fyi, I've lost 3 ravens so far and all to bugs/disconnects. It's not easy to lose a bs, you have to try.

    Originally by: Ohmy Fugod
    Not to mention, that if it's actually true that you need many months to make enough cash to get any item of those while running lvl 4's, then you should actually spend your time mining veldspar or something.


    ...once again I have no clue where you're coming from on this. I didnt once mention money in my post, or the time to aquire such funds.. and I dont know much about mining... but I dont think mining veldspar is more profitable than running l4s.

    Ahhh almost at the end of this steaming pile of angst.

    Last, and mostly least is the drones argument... you get all up in arms, even using bold text when I point out that in missions where people complain of everything aggro'ing when using drones, it in fact only happens opon telling the drones to attack something within range. And you bring up the argument of:

    Originally by: Ohmy Fugod
    why would you release your drones if it's not to attack something, and thus generate said aggro?


    Well, as was mentioned just a few posts before mine, some people use them as cap batteries via nos, a intelligent use of drones, wonder why you didnt think of it... oh wait... ahh hehe sorry, another low shot, but you hit me much lower with your rediculous arguments, so it's only sporting.

    next:
    Originally by: Ohmy Fugod
    Not to mention, why then, are there so many reports about the issues using a Dominix brings when running missions?


    Probably because the dominix is a drone boat... so anything that totally screws it over no matter how much would be worth getting very vocal about? If there was a single major mission where another weapon type didnt work I imagine you'd get something along the same response.

    Originally by: Ohmy Fugod

    And last:

    Originally by: The RepoMan
    (hell I attack cans to get aggro in WC, raven aint fast.)


    A jewel, really. Because people want to get aggro from everywhere exactly in Worlds Collide. Right?


    I do quite frequently when farming wc in the main room, my torp range is just under my raven's targetting range, and it's a waste of time to fly to the guristas gate to get aggro, so instead I send my drones after a distant can to get their aggro while im taking out the approaching serpentis, who dont do any damage until in range, which they usually dont even make it to. Meanwhile the guristas are flying towards me, into my range. By the time the guristas bcs get in range I switch to them and start picking them off, 2.5 volleys each (serp bcs only take 2 - boom!). I can usually take them out before I need to warp, which leaves only 3 usurpers and mabye 1-2 core admirals, who will all be within range when I warp back 20 seconds later.

    Anyways, that's that. I really cant stress enough that people overskill in here and just dont learn the game. By waiting too long you're depriving yourself of challenging gameplay and alot more fun imo.

    And Ohmy, I have no idea why you took it personally, my post was objectively minded. Please remember you started the topic that's it, you dont own it. This is a forum, not a sycophantic hugfest, and the topic was to help people who want to do l4s... and how exactly did your flame attack on my post help people?

    Propogating the myth that you need x skills to do x does not help.

    Sylaan
    Caldari
    Rakeriku
    Otaku Invasion
    Posted - 2006.08.10 15:09:00 - [80]
     

    Originally by: The RepoMan

    Propogating the myth that you need x skills to do x does not help.


    You must've missed his point, I don't think he implied you *need* x skill. The point was that his setup and suggestions will help with *efficiently* running level 4 missions. And you can say what you want but the fact is that the less skill you have the less efficient you will be (warpouts and so on).

    Anyway, can't we all just get along Wink

    WakingTea
    STK Scientific
    The Initiative.
    Posted - 2006.08.10 16:15:00 - [81]
     

    Edited by: WakingTea on 10/08/2006 16:15:49
    Hi,
    So I'm going to be starting to be using my raven shortly. Just training up necessary skills at the moment. Just from reading the thread, I'm not quite sure how you guys are saying that you can kill those pesky interceptors. Cruise Missiles can kill them while they are mwding at you but I must imagine sometimes they might get to orbit if they start out close.

    Can Cruise Missiles kill the ceptors as they orbit you?
    - Will a Target Painter help but not gimp my tank with 3 hardeners.


    Are Drones the Only Option in this sitatuion?
    - What I've found is that if I've been webbed just after getting into the mission, I cannot be the 40km away from the remaining rats in the level. So How do I use drones in this sitatuion and not aggro the whole room.

    Thanks so Much
    Tea


    Ismern
    GoonFleet
    GoonSwarm
    Posted - 2006.08.10 20:22:00 - [82]
     

    I find that many L4 missions can be tanked with a few T2 hardeners (I personally use 2 mission specific and 2 invulns) and an XL SB II. Unfortunately, some missions will require you to run that booster non-stop at first and your cap gets slaughtered, so I fit the last mid slot with a cap booster and 800s for charges. Hasn't failed me yet and I'm stickin with it.

    The RepoMan
    Caldari
    Red Horizon Inc
    Red Horizon
    Posted - 2006.08.10 23:52:00 - [83]
     

    Originally by: Sylaan
    Originally by: The RepoMan

    Propogating the myth that you need x skills to do x does not help.


    You must've missed his point, I don't think he implied you *need* x skill.


    lol really, the 2 page flame he wrote saying everything I did was impossible or lies based primarily on skillpoints not imply that? =P

    Originally by: Sylaan
    Anyway, can't we all just get along


    lol always do, I have nothing against anyone personally and never will, simply the ideas raised. I'm sure others thought the same thing when they read my post, after all it is quite a popular thing to do as I pointed out in my posts a few times.

    I mean people sometimes forget what a forum is, literally, and it turns into a e-peen stroking fest for those who dont quite understand the concept, but I still dont hold it against em. Without balls or irrationality my post probably would have gone unnoticed, as most people would have just dismissed it simply because it goes against popular concensus. So if anything I'm more fond of him for that hehe.

    Ohmy Fugod
    Posted - 2006.08.11 03:02:00 - [84]
     

    Edited by: Ohmy Fugod on 11/08/2006 04:04:20

    @ The Repoman:
    Dude, I've been asked to not to feed the trolls... but anyway...

    - You came up saying some things were ridiculous and your whole post was full of arrogance. You didn't "beg to differ" but bashed instead, even without serious arguments to back up your statements, and a bunch of missdirections. So you got bitten back 'cause you showed your teeth first.
    Many people disagreed here. Only one discussion ended up like this. You go figure.

    And now you say you wanted to stand from the rest. Everyone here stood from the rest. If you need to come up with such a load of crap to be noticed, well...

    - Anyway, someone asked for a suggested skill list. I proposed my own as an example, that I've gotten in my way to the battleship (You didn't figure out people might have to make their way to a BS, did you? Of course not, you mindlessly rushed to it).
    Those (more than) 65 days allowed me to learn the game and go from total-newb-Ibis to Raven, with top of the line gear and a faction booster with it, in about 3 3/4 months. Including Adv. Learning to IV 'cept Cha, to Adv. III.

    - Add another month and chips and I find myself with 1.3 bill in my wallet. Not to mention I never lost a Raven.

    - But lo and behold, you lost 3 Ravens, due to lag. Yeah. Lag. Well maybe if you had "overskilled" a little, "lag" wouldn't have hit you so hard.

    - You had to use 5-7 volleys to kill bs's because your skills sucked too. Not because cruises suck.

    And before you reply, I never said torps suck, I just stated that their qualities don't make them the best choice for the efficiency or versatility running missions requires.

    - "It's either extemely rare if not impossible to get faction equipment from those missions" is a valid sentence that implies it depends on which mission you're talking about, since the conversation was about a couple and not just one.
    Get your reading comprehension skills up before typing.

    - Drone release. Intelligent use? Each time the issue was brought up, it was to warn about attacking. But it seems not everyone was able to get that.

    Even then, did you know that it's been reported that the entrance of another entity to a room has caused blob aggro? Release of drones or even an ally? Aye, thought so. Oh but you don't have a problem in stating that as a fact. Amazing.

    - I could say more but dude, you rushed to your ship, and you f*c*ed up thrice, and then you show up bashing a help thread?

    I'm just telling people about this safe and efficient setup I came across that made me dirty rich. If that pi*$es you off, not my fault.

    G'luck.

    Ohmy Fugod
    Posted - 2006.08.11 03:35:00 - [85]
     

    Edited by: Ohmy Fugod on 11/08/2006 04:32:36


    @ Shinshi Casoyako:

  • Drones


  • - Guristas Webifier and Guristas Kyoukan have exactly the same thermal and kinetic resists to both armor and shield.

    Source: www.eveinfo.com

    Check it out man.

    - Oh and I meant Signature Resolution btw, not radius... sorry my bad. Hope you got me now, will edit later.(*edited now*)

    - 2/2/1 Equals 0/6/1. Yes, raw dmgwise. However four of those six mediums take so long to travel that they represent a huge loss in dps.

    Also, even if we disregard the tracking speed, that sig resolution also means that vs frigs, they might actually become just a slower version of a Hammerhead I. Ouch!
    (Already said Ogres deal almost half dmg to frigs up there too, but reasons must have not been clear, I believe, 'cause I made the mistake of typing sig "radius" instead of "resolution")

  • The Gist B-Type.


  • OF COURSE! I'm going to name it as a tip! Why not? You might say: "Oh, right, let's recommend a full Estamel's setup then" but it wouldn't be like that, and I wrote why like three times already.

    Lookie!
    - Bought mine with my lvl 3's savings.
    - I never denied it's quite an investment - BUT!
    - Made back the cash so fast it's astounding.

    So, how the hell am I not going to recommend such a thing???
    I made the money for this setup outta lvl 3's while into the learning grind!
    So anyone can get there! With just a Ferox and half a clue!

    So well, even when it does require hard work to get, I honestly believe it sounds like a good idea for those who might have the chance and are still wondering whether the investment would be worthy or not.

    Oh and let me clarify once more I'm not saying it's required to run missions. It's just efficiency incarnated.

    Many people shun at faction mods thinking they're so expensive they'll either never make the cash back or just never help as much as it seems.

    Well, my intention was to explain why this case is different from popular belief and really worth every cent of it.

  • Refitting:


  • Told you bud, if it works for the isk/hour ratio or also if it's vital for mission accomplishment, then sure! But I tried it before and always took more than that, still it's cool.

    ************************************************************

    @ Waking Tea:

    - You'll mostly use drones to dispose of those. And they'll take care of them nicely. You just have to be sure you don't aggro the whole room, and never panic at their sight.

    - Don't use cruise missiles to kill inties unless:

    a) You're desperate.
    b) You know how to catch them while they MWD. This is cool if they're into the first group to aggro and you're not sure whether to deploy drones or not.
    Exception: Enemies Abound 1/5. Just don't shoot the frigs.
    This is a mission I still owe a walkthrough about.

    And always remember to make sure you know what you're going to find in there before accepting the mission!!

    Cheers

    Shinshi Casoyako
    Posted - 2006.08.11 08:34:00 - [86]
     

  • Drones


  • Thnx for giving the site man, did miss it in my earlier examples.
    Almost all frigs you mention (apart from laser users) have higher thermal resistances than kinetic resistances. Those thats use lasers have far less EM resistance over the whole board. This is only frigates I checked.

    Sorry to say but if 1 + 1 still is 3 for you than this is a non-discusion. You are wrong to advice thermal drones accros the board. You just given the prove of the resistances.

    Now we go to the heavy drones. My heavy drones have 800 speed, your medium drones have 1400 speed. This means that my drones will take 60% longer to get to there target. How long does your drone take to get to the target? right 10 seconds at most. This means that in the extreem case that the drones meet up at 15km it takes me 6 second longer to get there. Thats 6/3600 of hour. Now in the most extreem situation the frigate you name is orbiting at 7-9 km. This means that it would take me another 8 seconds longer to move my drones. So if I got 10 frigates targeting me and they are allways max away from each other it would take me 86 seconds longer to kill them. If the frigate goes down in 1 minute (nice estimate) and I do 1.5 * 0,6 (I do -40% dmg right) = 0,9 times dmg. This means that I take 1.1 minute per target and 86 second extra to fly. This means I take 12m 26s for killing the frigates. Do you kill the 3 battleships that are with this spawn in 12m 26s?

    This whole example is based on the worst secenario you present me. And even than the whole situation is rediculious. In no situation will the drones fly the max distance possible. Never will you shoot the battleships sooner than the rest of the spawn.


  • The Gist B-Type.


  • You advice people to take it but the reason why you should not is because its your opinion that it is great. Advicing someone who just recieved his drivers lisens to get a ferarri and go 250 on the speedway just because your experience with it is good is stupid. The new driver will bound to get in trouble because of the lack of experience and might even hurt his ferarri. You get the point. If you invest your money into a module while you have alot less experience will get it blown up at some point. Boom 400 mil for a startiting lvl 4 mission runner and its bye bye player. If you dont get this than you dont get the process that players go through when they start lvl 4 missions.

    Also on the remark how much money you made per hour on lvl 3 missions? How much money did you make prior to getting the module on lvl 4 missions and how much time did the module drop for you for doing the drone harrasment mission?

    I think these answers will get my point clear.

  • Refitting:


  • Point taken

    Caol
    Minmatar
    Posted - 2006.08.11 12:33:00 - [87]
     

    Originally by: Ohmy Fugod

    - Anyway, someone asked for a suggested skill list. I proposed my own as an example, that I've gotten in my way to the battleship (You didn't figure out people might have to make their way to a BS, did you? Of course not, you mindlessly rushed to it).
    Those (more than) 65 days allowed me to learn the game and go from total-newb-Ibis to Raven, with top of the line gear and a faction booster with it, in about 3 3/4 months. Including Adv. Learning to IV 'cept Cha, to Adv. III.

    - Add another month and chips and I find myself with 1.3 bill in my wallet. Not to mention I never lost a Raven.

    - But lo and behold, you lost 3 Ravens, due to lag. Yeah. Lag. Well maybe if you had "overskilled" a little, "lag" wouldn't have hit you so hard.

    - You had to use 5-7 volleys to kill bs's because your skills sucked too. Not because cruises suck.

    And before you reply, I never said torps suck, I just stated that their qualities don't make them the best choice for the efficiency or versatility running missions requires.

    - "It's either extemely rare if not impossible to get faction equipment from those missions" is a valid sentence that implies it depends on which mission you're talking about, since the conversation was about a couple and not just one.
    Get your reading comprehension skills up before typing.

    - Drone release. Intelligent use? Each time the issue was brought up, it was to warn about attacking. But it seems not everyone was able to get that.

    Even then, did you know that it's been reported that the entrance of another entity to a room has caused blob aggro? Release of drones or even an ally? Aye, thought so. Oh but you don't have a problem in stating that as a fact. Amazing.

    - I could say more but dude, you rushed to your ship, and you f*c*ed up thrice, and then you show up bashing a help thread?

    I'm just telling people about this safe and efficient setup I came across that made me dirty rich. If that pi*$es you off, not my fault.

    G'luck.

    \O/ Completely agree with Ohmy \O/

    For those new to Eve who want to make a 1bil+ pile of cash to enjoy the game with in a span of time less than a month ... Ohmy has just shown you one path. Yes there are other paths, but the path of the Level 4 mission is here and clear. The only effort you have to do is a)work up your faction standing until you get a good level 4 agent and b)pocess the ability to learn.

    For me, the name of the game with the L4's is speed. Doing the missions as fast as possible making the most amount of ISK as possible in the shortest span of time. Looking at the debate so far it seems the main "disagreements" are over

    Arrow To shield booster amp or not to shield boost amp.
    Arrow To faction shield boost or to T2 shield boost.
    Arrow To large drone or to medium drone.
    Arrow To cruise or to torpedo.

    Whatever works for the people who use whatever then great. For the new L4 runner out there, try a mix and decide what you like and want to train for - simple. For missions your doing for the first time, always being aligned and ready to warp out is sound advice you have to be mad to flame.

    When I first started running L4's I didn't have a clue and had to warp in and out on many missions. At first I was against it but buying faction gear made things so much easier and quicker that my ISK making speed increased noticeabley because I fired my missiles faster, for more damage and I could tank better. Training for T2 gear also makes things easier in that you have more leway for error eg. lag, sneezing fit or whatever. A tip of my hat to the OP who has explained this principle repeatedly throughout this thread.

    The RepoMan
    Caldari
    Red Horizon Inc
    Red Horizon
    Posted - 2006.08.11 12:39:00 - [88]
     

    lol jeez man pop a midol.

    I dont want this to turn into a back and forth, my logic is on the table, you just gotta read it. I posted, you flamed, not the other way around.

    Seriously man, grow up.

    Bourg
    Posted - 2006.08.11 19:42:00 - [89]
     

    Re: Torpedoes vs Cruise Missiles

    What is the downside to fitting 3 of each?

    I'm going to be getting my first Raven soon (around 2.5mil SP) so am very interested in discussions like this.

    tiller
    THE PILLAGE
    Posted - 2006.08.11 20:21:00 - [90]
     

    Edited by: tiller on 11/08/2006 20:22:12

    I agree that speed is the key to mission running. Lets face it, after mission X comes up for the 20th time or mission Y repeats 3 times in a row.... I want it to end, get my rewards and do something else.

    Fit best tank you can
    Fit 2 BCU
    Fit cruise as most of your targets are cruisers and frigs
    Don't fit stabs (you don't need to run EVER)
    Fit officer gear if you can afford it as you can then web browse while running even the toughest mission and taking entire lvl aggro (you'll need two screens for this lol)

    Rince, repeat, enjoy (well, i'm not sure enjoy is right word)

    Lub Tiller x


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