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Blacklight
Caldari
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:18:00 - [241]
 

Originally by: Trac3rt
Attempting to forcibly removed us from the game for choosing who we decide to associate with isn't the same thing at all from attempting to dictate who we can be e-friends with in a game?


Originally by: Remedial
I am angry because I consider D2 to be like the worst sort of gamer. One who play Counter Strike and they lose complain about the other guy hacking. When they play ****ing WarCraft III or StarCraft theyíre the guys who quit as soon as they see a rush. If they canít win on their terms they donít want to play this game. So I say **** it, make it so they donít play this game. If we have to ruin their experience for them, to get them to quit, to get them to break down and cry and admit theyíre not good enough by ****ing camping them into a corner for a hundred hours straight, I say we do it.


Rolling Eyes

Anti Derivative
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:19:00 - [242]
 

Originally by: Furnok Dorn
Listen, the only way to settle this is through a kickboxing tournament Rolling Eyes


i'll send my supermodel girlfriend/dancer to fight for me. her ripped abs will deflect your weak and pathetic attacks.

Blacklight
Caldari
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:19:00 - [243]
 

Originally by: Grayton
So basically, you're saying you get to determine who is right and who is wrong in this game, and then can enforce your decisions by attempting to erradicate them?


Welcome to Eve where if you have the will and the wherewithal then yes you can enforce whatever you like.

EULA and Concord permitting of course.

Anille Kole
Gallente
University of Caille
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:19:00 - [244]
 

Originally by: Anti Derivative
Originally by: Anille Kole
They are insulted by your actions, and attacking you because of your offensive behavior. How could you possibly not understand that?

Where did you find any indication that we didn't understand this?
The fact that you're turning "We're attacking you because you've got members that are extremely offensive" into "We're GMs of EVE and we are dictating who you can have as friends."

Rebellion
Caldari
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:19:00 - [245]
 

The amount of verbal combat in this thread seems just about right for the beginning of the operation.

Our goal is not to make anyone quit from EVE. Our goal is just to blow up GoonSwarm ships anywhere we see them.

We will keep doing this until your more sensible members accept responsibility for what your immature members have been and are continuing on doing.

An event happening 4 months ago is not exactly old if the insult had been continually existing every day for those 4 months until after July 27 and no one in the goon alliance voiced any objection to it. Furthermore, upon exposure of it, goons posted WTB corpse threads. It is fortunate for you that these have been since deleted by the forum mods. There are several more goon threads that had been deleted by the forum mods because of their content. GoonSwarm members are polluting EVE.

At any rate, this is barely a week since the war started. We're perfectly alright with continuing this for another year, or two. We've done it before. Hope GoonSwarm pilots like the inside of stations.

Wherever you run to, we will find you. All those plans Remedial had for the greatness of your alliance? They will be impossible now. Learn to live with it. This is a game after all.

Grayton
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:20:00 - [246]
 

Edited by: Grayton on 02/08/2006 15:23:39
Originally by: Avon
Thing is though, in Eve it doesn't matter who is right, all that matters is who is left.


i see what you did there

Originally by: Blacklight
Welcome to Eve where if you have the will and the wherewithal then yes you can enforce whatever you like.

EULA and Concord permitting of course.



So you are agreeing that your alliance is determining who is right and who is wrong through your own statements and means of enforcement?

Sergeant Spot
Caldari
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:21:00 - [247]
 

Originally by: Grayton
Originally by: Sergeant Spot
I'm not dictating.

You're being held responsible for your decision.

Not the same thing at all (seriously, no joke).



So basically, you're saying you get to determine who is right and who is wrong in this game, and then can enforce your decisions by attempting to erradicate them?


You determine what is right and wrong yourself, and you are responsible for your decision.

In all the time I've been in BoB, through the conflicts with G, IRON, Stain, FA, VC, etc, etc, I've not bothered to post much on this forum. In all those cases, it was just wars, even if some of the methods were debated (and are debated...) fairly hotly now and then. Then there is the Goons. You want me to shut up? Don't sugar coat or minimize your decision. Stand by it, as it is, warts and all. Believe it or not, I concede that standing by corp mates is a virtue. Standing by them unconditionally, however, has some problems.

Anti Derivative
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:22:00 - [248]
 

Originally by: Anille Kole
The fact that you're turning "We're attacking you because you've got members that are extremely offensive" into "We're GMs of EVE and we are dictating who you can have as friends."


Those two things are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but rather in this case are logical consequences of each other.

Dinique
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:26:00 - [249]
 

Originally by: deadtear
Originally by: Traxio Nacho
Originally by: deadtear
Edited by: deadtear on 02/08/2006 08:49:23
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
Stuff


You're seriously the worst troll ever. You've tried to screw up several Swarm threads, and now you're actively trolling one not even made by us.




Edit: Blacklight, mind explaining whatever it is your keen sense of irony picked up?


Quite abit of irony in the post, the one bit I will comment on is the fact you lot were whining about BOB taking the game too seriously and that BOB were trying to get GS to leave the game and that was harrasment etc etc.

But your leader has said exactly the same thing, so its alright for you to do it but not other people?


What dear leader says and what we all think are different things, but I agree there is...some irony in the statement. Fortunately I can see the difference between EvE and reality and play for fun. Unfortunately, the most fun I can have right now is trying to drive BoB out. Really not even BoB as a whole. The majority of them didnt start this, just like the majority of GS didnt start the "incident".


If you follow Remedial, that reflects on you.

Simple as that.

Grayton
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:26:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: Sergeant Spot
You determine what is right and wrong yourself, and you are responsible for your decision.


The very act of saying you are holding us responsible for our decisions means you are saying what is right and what is wrong for us to do.

Ismern
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:26:00 - [251]
 

Originally by: Rebellion
Our goal is not to make anyone quit from EVE. Our goal is just to blow up GoonSwarm ships anywhere we see them.


Are you sure about that?

Originally by: SirMolle
Edited by: SirMolle on 02/08/2006 12:35:23
Originally by: Itzena

Sounds about right. Have BoB officially backpedalled from 'We want to eradicate Goons from EVE' yet?


No.



Your leaders seem to have other goals in mind.

Kelly O'Connor
Minmatar
Black Nova Corp
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:28:00 - [252]
 

Edited by: Kelly O''Connor on 02/08/2006 15:31:07
me thinks goons r falling apart :( and we didnt eve get 1 single fleet fight ... /me cries

on the other note ur spam in local seems to diminish over time and your enjoyment of beign t****d in a station must be astonishing ....

short example:

guy undocks in shuttle then redocks .... following with massive lol in local how bob sux coz they cant kill a shuttle ... good game lol u r teh my hero can i have ur teh X ?


thats end of story for me... ill not reply to any of flames etc.
EOT

DB Preacher
Minmatar
Reikoku
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:29:00 - [253]
 

Eradicating Goons from Eve has nothing to do with making people quit eve.

The same way eradicating PA, FA, SA, VC, IMP, CODA etc etc etc etc had anything to do with making their members quit the game.

Your history of eve is lacking and therefore your understanding of intention is lacking.

You'll learn though.
dbp

Blacklight
Caldari
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:30:00 - [254]
 

Originally by: DB Preacher
Eradicating Goons from Eve has nothing to do with making people quit eve.

The same way eradicating PA, FA, SA, VC, IMP, CODA etc etc etc etc had anything to do with making their members quit the game.

Your history of eve is lacking and therefore your understanding of intention is lacking.

You'll learn though.
dbp


Well said old bean.

Rebellion
Caldari
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:32:00 - [255]
 

We're not saying what is right or wrong. We're just saying that the things you have done so far have resulted in us deciding what we are doing now.

Regarding being responsible for your decisions, this is implied for any intelligent life form.

Why all the protests though? As I have said, it has barely been a week. Is GoonSwarm implying that they cannot take for a week what other have, at one time, endured for over a year? Surely your alliance is capable of much more than what we have delivered so far.

Anti Derivative
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:33:00 - [256]
 

Edited by: Anti Derivative on 02/08/2006 15:33:26
Originally by: Ismern
Originally by: Rebellion
Our goal is not to make anyone quit from EVE. Our goal is just to blow up GoonSwarm ships anywhere we see them.


Are you sure about that?

Your leaders seem to have other goals in mind.


I think the confusion is that we see ourselves as Goons regardless of eve, whereas they see us as Goons only insofar as the corp we belong to. So when they say eradicate goons from eve they mean GoonFleet/Waffe proper, and not the group people hailing from the somethingawful.com forums.

Anille Kole
Gallente
University of Caille
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:34:00 - [257]
 

Originally by: Anti Derivative
Originally by: Anille Kole
The fact that you're turning "We're attacking you because you've got members that are extremely offensive" into "We're GMs of EVE and we are dictating who you can have as friends."


Those two things are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but rather in this case are logical consequences of each other.
So, because they don't like your members and the fact that you won't remove them even though they are extremely offensive, and are attacking you because of that, makes them not only think of themselves as GMs, but as ultimate deciders of who you can befriend? If they are logical consequences, the logic involved is twisted beyond recognition. They are attacking you because they don't like your members. Would you consider yourselves the GMs of EVE if you attacked a group because they constantly flamed you? Or would you consider it personal vengeance? I think the answer is obvious, but you can't give up the charade because you need all the positive PR you can get, meaning you have to resort to "OHNOES BOB IS BEING A BUNCH OF BULLIES".

Ismern
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:36:00 - [258]
 

Edited by: Ismern on 02/08/2006 15:39:07
Originally by: DB Preacher

Your history of eve is lacking and therefore your understanding of intention is lacking.

You'll learn though.
dbp



My understanding of intention is quite clear. Your attempts at misguiding the public and covering up your true intentions are lacking.

You'll learn though.


Originally by: Anille Kole
Originally by: Anti Derivative
Originally by: Anille Kole
The fact that you're turning "We're attacking you because you've got members that are extremely offensive" into "We're GMs of EVE and we are dictating who you can have as friends."


Those two things are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but rather in this case are logical consequences of each other.
So, because they don't like your members and the fact that you won't remove them even though they are extremely offensive, and are attacking you because of that, makes them not only think of themselves as GMs, but as ultimate deciders of who you can befriend? If they are logical consequences, the logic involved is twisted beyond recognition. They are attacking you because they don't like your members. Would you consider yourselves the GMs of EVE if you attacked a group because they constantly flamed you? Or would you consider it personal vengeance? I think the answer is obvious, but you can't give up the charade because you need all the positive PR you can get, meaning you have to resort to "OHNOES BOB IS BEING A BUNCH OF BULLIES".


If we wanted the PR and the help we wouldn't have war-deced half of EVE.

Grayton
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:37:00 - [259]
 

Originally by: Rebellion
We're not saying what is right or wrong. We're just saying that the things you have done so far have resulted in us deciding what we are doing now.

Regarding being responsible for your decisions, this is implied for any intelligent life form.


I am not saying we do not hold ourselves responsible for our own decisions (and by responsible I do not mean "at fault"). I am merely trying to confirm that BoB thinks they can determine we are right or wrong in our decisions and then hold us responsible in their own ways, as this seems to be what Sergeant Spot is implying.

Dinique
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:37:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Alexi Kalashnikov

Sure the comment wasn't good to start with, but it was made on a private forums for the twisted humor of one man, to the which the rest of GS said was uncalled for.


Thats a blatant lie.

Judging by XZH local from last week, it was atleast 30 or so of your members, including your leader and some directors. Not to mention ships named things like "lol smoske lol". Didn't see anyone say it was uncalled for or wrong from GS, so its reasonable to assume the the general opinion of GS is that its acceptable and fine.

Anti Derivative
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:38:00 - [261]
 

Originally by: Anille Kole
So, because they don't like your members and the fact that you won't remove them even though they are extremely offensive, and are attacking you because of that, makes them not only think of themselves as GMs, but as ultimate deciders of who you can befriend? If they are logical consequences, the logic involved is twisted beyond recognition. They are attacking you because they don't like your members. Would you consider yourselves the GMs of EVE if you attacked a group because they constantly flamed you? Or would you consider it personal vengeance? I think the answer is obvious, but you can't give up the charade because you need all the positive PR you can get, meaning you have to resort to "OHNOES BOB IS BEING A BUNCH OF BULLIES".


I didn't say anything about being GMs, you did. If you really need to abstract it into grade school language then:
1. he said he is holding everyone belonging to GS responsible for being members of GS and that the punishment is his wrath.
2. i said that i don't care about his wrath and will do as i please.

Does this make it easier to understand?

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:38:00 - [262]
 

Originally by: Grayton
Originally by: Sergeant Spot
You determine what is right and wrong yourself, and you are responsible for your decision.


The very act of saying you are holding us responsible for our decisions means you are saying what is right and what is wrong for us to do.


So?

Society judges its members all the time, it is the nature of the beast.


Anyway, why are you so hung up on e-morality in a meaningless internet spaceship game?

Sergeant Spot
Caldari
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:39:00 - [263]
 

Originally by: Grayton
Originally by: Sergeant Spot
You determine what is right and wrong yourself, and you are responsible for your decision.


The very act of saying you are holding us responsible for our decisions means you are saying what is right and what is wrong for us to do.


We're expressing our opinion on your decision. No matter how you debate it and mince word, YOU make your own decisions, and you are judged on those decisions, always.

I'm something of a fanatic on the concept of free will. Closest thing I have to a religion.

When you finally arrive at a decision STAND BY IT, warts and all. And don't try and hide the warts, that only makes them worse.

If you find you can't stand by a decision when it is expressed "warts and all", both its virtues and flaws freely shown and acknowledged, then you should probably abandon the decision.

Tiggus Maximus
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:41:00 - [264]
 

Originally by: Kelly O'Connor
Edited by: Kelly O''Connor on 02/08/2006 15:31:07
me thinks goons r falling apart :( and we didnt eve get 1 single fleet fight ... /me cries

on the other note ur spam in local seems to diminish over time and your enjoyment of beign t****d in a station must be astonishing ....

short example:

guy undocks in shuttle then redocks .... following with massive lol in local how bob sux coz they cant kill a shuttle ... good game lol u r teh my hero can i have ur teh X ?


thats end of story for me... ill not reply to any of flames etc.
EOT


You guys are hilarious, the only reason a goon would be in SU right now is if they want to taunt you in local, maybe engage in some suicide antics for a quick giggle.

Those who actually want to do other stuff have 5984859405040954 other systems to do it in....You would need a force many times the size of goonswarm itself to actually accomplish your stated goal of keeping us "locked in station playing spin the ship".

Get over yourselves, you're not fooling anyone pretending all of goonswarm is languishing in SU with nothing to do, quite the opposite in fact, we are out trashing the universe and spilling martinis on the rug in cheap hotel rooms having a great time :)

Grayton
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:41:00 - [265]
 

Edited by: Grayton on 02/08/2006 15:47:55
Edited by: Grayton on 02/08/2006 15:46:53
Originally by: Avon
So?

Society judges its members all the time, it is the nature of the beast.


Anyway, why are you so hung up on e-morality in a meaningless internet spaceship game?


So you are saying that BoB forms the basis of society in this game then, as you seem to be the ones bringing forth this judgement?

I am not "hung up" on anything; I'm merely trying to get a better understanding of BoB's actions in this meaningless internet spaceship game.

Originally by: Sergeant Spot
We're expressing our opinion on your decision. No matter how you debate it and mince word, YOU make your own decisions, and you are judged on those decisions, always.

I'm something of a fanatic on the concept of free will. Closest thing I have to a religion.

When you finally arrive at a decision STAND BY IT, warts and all. And don't try and hide the warts, that only makes them worse.

If you find you can't stand by a decision when it is expressed "warts and all", both its virtues and flaws freely shown and acknowledged, then you should probably abandon the decision.



I am not arguing that BoB cannot judge us for our actions. Judging is an inherent part of society, as Avon pointed out a few posts up. Nor am I arguing that we should not stand by our decision. I stand by it (whatever "it" even is anymore as the entire issue of this has been convoluted beyond belief). Nor am I also arguing against the concept of Free Will, as I too support that. I am merely trying to establish how exactly BoB sees itself in the Eve community.

Also this thread is moving so fast I fear that by the time I get back from taking a shower, three more pages will have been tacked on to it already.

Anille Kole
Gallente
University of Caille
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:48:00 - [266]
 

Originally by: Anti Derivative
Originally by: Anille Kole
So, because they don't like your members and the fact that you won't remove them even though they are extremely offensive, and are attacking you because of that, makes them not only think of themselves as GMs, but as ultimate deciders of who you can befriend? If they are logical consequences, the logic involved is twisted beyond recognition. They are attacking you because they don't like your members. Would you consider yourselves the GMs of EVE if you attacked a group because they constantly flamed you? Or would you consider it personal vengeance? I think the answer is obvious, but you can't give up the charade because you need all the positive PR you can get, meaning you have to resort to "OHNOES BOB IS BEING A BUNCH OF BULLIES".


I didn't say anything about being GMs, you did. If you really need to abstract it into grade school language then:
1. he said he is holding everyone belonging to GS responsible for being members of GS and that the punishment is his wrath.
2. i said that i don't care about his wrath and will do as i please.

Does this make it easier to understand?

It makes it easier to understand just how badly you are losing this argument by arguing my semantics. However, to counter your points:

1. He said he's holding them responsible because they are supporting the people that offend him, not because they are members of GS. Although I don't understand how this point even remotely supports what you are trying to say.
2. You didn't say you didn't care about his wrath, you declared him a dictator and crudely challenged his ability to judge others. I'm sure you wouldn't want people judging other people, that just wouldn't be fair.

Rebellion
Caldari
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:49:00 - [267]
 

Edited by: Rebellion on 02/08/2006 15:52:09
Understanding our actions is easy.

We enjoy blowing GoonSwarm ships up. Goon chaining is fun.

And why would goons go elsewhere? I thought the alliance was spoiling and eager for a fight with BoB? Or is this the GoonSwarm definition of a fight?

Armois Delgato
Caldari
Mean Corp
Mean Coalition
Posted - 2006.08.02 15:58:00 - [268]
 

Originally by: Dinique
If you follow Remedial, that reflects on you.

Simple as that.


Eh, for better or worse I've been on this train since the beginning and I'll most likely be on it once it reaches its final destination, whenever or wherever that might be- no matter how painful or pleasureable the ride there isn't really any getting off of this train I'm on. Rem has very little to do with my attachment to the same people I've been fighting among since November.

The first time I tried EVE I didn't last beyond two weeks in empire mining scordite off of a badger in Tourier and bluescreening every half hour. If it weren't for the fleet I'd have never bothered picking this game up again for a second chance. The Swarm deserves my loyalties if for nothing other than that.

All that said, it is well within anyone's rights to try to push someone out of 0.0 or force an organization to disband. It is EVE after all.

Sergeant Spot
Caldari
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.02 16:00:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: Grayton
Originally by: Rebellion
We're not saying what is right or wrong. We're just saying that the things you have done so far have resulted in us deciding what we are doing now.

Regarding being responsible for your decisions, this is implied for any intelligent life form.


I am not saying we do not hold ourselves responsible for our own decisions (and by responsible I do not mean "at fault"). I am merely trying to confirm that BoB thinks they can determine we are right or wrong in our decisions and then hold us responsible in their own ways, as this seems to be what Sergeant Spot is implying.



Your Decision has been tolerance and acceptance of repeated incidents extremely offensive behavior. You are being held accountable for that.

When this whole thing started, my first reaction was rage someone would do such things, tempered by interest in how your corp would deal with the issue (this was before I started posting).

Then I learned that the incident was not isolated. THEN I started posting.

Its been a continue thing, which is why your initial apology rang rather hollow. As stated above:

Originally by: Dinique

Judging by XZH local from last week, it was atleast 30 or so of your members, including your leader and some directors. Not to mention ships named things like "lol smoske lol". Didn't see anyone say it was uncalled for or wrong from GS, so its reasonable to assume the the general opinion of GS is that its acceptable and fine.



And that is just one system's local and ship names. It does not count incidents at other locations, the deliberate convos, etc.

Have you ever told other Goons that there are certain types of offensive behavior that are not acceptable, and MEANT it? Meant it to the point of "enforcing it", even if doing so would be painful?

Stand by your decision, as it is, warts and all (most complex decisions have warts, so its not unusual). Stand by it as it is, or find another decision to stand by.

Anti Derivative
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.08.02 16:02:00 - [270]
 

Originally by: Anille Kole
It makes it easier to understand just how badly you are losing this argument by arguing my semantics. However, to counter your points:

1. He said he's holding them responsible because they are supporting the people that offend him, not because they are members of GS. Although I don't understand how this point even remotely supports what you are trying to say.
2. You didn't say you didn't care about his wrath, you declared him a dictator and crudely challenged his ability to judge others. I'm sure you wouldn't want people judging other people, that just wouldn't be fair.

it's reeeeeally simple, and you're missing it. keep trying.


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