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White Ronin
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.08.01 03:34:00 - [1]
 


Howdy all.
Just curious what you curse/pilgram pilots think will happen to the ship if they initiate the Nos/Nuet changes that they are throwing around.
Right now I believe that the one with the biggest following is having a base% of cap undrainable with this ammount to be increased by use of cap batteries.

I have seen so many people talk about these ships and how uber they are but they ALL rely on that Nos.

Will this make this ship unplayable?

Are there other setups that will make this a good solo ship or will the nos/neut nerf (not sure if they will nerf both nos and neuts or just nos) make this a fleet support only ship?

Murukan
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.08.01 03:37:00 - [2]
 

if the changes just affect nos then i don't think they will be the end all. If they affect nuets to that is dumb imo cause you lose as much cap as you drain (not taking into account curse/pilgrim bonii)

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.08.01 03:38:00 - [3]
 

It will seriously hurt them, yes.

(I'm in favour of a system modified on a low sig radius factor..cruiser sized nos will still hit even interceptors for arround 75% of their current capacity)

KilROCK
Minmatar
Insurgent New Eden Tribe
Deus Ex.
Posted - 2006.08.01 03:39:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Murukan
if the changes just affect nos then i don't think they will be the end all. If they affect nuets to that is dumb imo cause you lose as much cap as you drain (not taking into account curse/pilgrim bonii)


Not exactly, You drain more than you lose on a pilgrim.
It won't change the pilgrim and curse since you still get cap, and the last bit you won't be able to nos, you'll be able to neut it.

Foulis
Minmatar
Spartan Industrial Manufacturing
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2006.08.01 04:49:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Maya Rkell
(I'm in favour of a system modified on a low sig radius factor..cruiser sized nos will still hit even interceptors for arround 75% of their current capacity)


This would make sense I think.

Murukan
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.08.01 04:49:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: KilROCK
Originally by: Murukan
if the changes just affect nos then i don't think they will be the end all. If they affect nuets to that is dumb imo cause you lose as much cap as you drain (not taking into account curse/pilgrim bonii)


Not exactly, You drain more than you lose on a pilgrim.
It won't change the pilgrim and curse since you still get cap, and the last bit you won't be able to nos, you'll be able to neut it.


hehe i know you drain more than you lose, that's why i put the little parenthesis about the curse/pilgrim, was talking about nuets on the whole Very Happy

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.08.01 07:41:00 - [7]
 

The Energy Emission System skill also reduces the capacitor need of using neutralizers by 5% (but doesn't touch the amount that is drained). It means there's a hefty sacrifice to be made, but that the neutralizing ship still will have the upper hand.

Also, this is the reason Tuxford's said he would not like to see nerf to neuts.

Holly Hoover
Posted - 2006.08.01 07:45:00 - [8]
 

Better sell your ship now cause prices are going to PLUNGE if they go thru with this bad nerf! Shocked

Montero
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2006.08.01 07:52:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Holly Hoover
Better sell your ship now cause prices are going to PLUNGE if they go thru with this bad nerf! Shocked


have a look out your window for me, and let me know if the sky is falling.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.08.01 08:48:00 - [10]
 

Quite. Anyone selling umbrellas?

Anyway, the changes will just mean that you'll have to fit a one neut on your curse/pilgrim. A good named & at least lvl 4 in the ship and nos/neut skill and the cap recharge of the curse/pilgrim is enough to kill even the cap recharge of an apoc.
Add to this that said apoc also needs to do stuff like tanking and you'll get a very dry apoc.

They only problem will be that when your nosses hit the magic mark (speaking of this, has it been said where exactly that will be?) you won't get additional cap to support your tanking. If your target is smart enough to send it's heavy drones against you at that point and not earlier there might be complications.

Xendie
Ad Astra Vexillum
Sc0rched Earth
Posted - 2006.08.01 09:24:00 - [11]
 

of course tuxford wants to nerf NOS and Neuts.
there is only one race Amarr that has a dedicated ship for those so why is it a suprise to some that he will nerf it?

tuxford is in the business of nerfing and making amarr ships useless all over the board, one after the other.

Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.08.01 09:36:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Xendie
of course tuxford wants to nerf NOS and Neuts.
there is only one race Amarr that has a dedicated ship for those so why is it a suprise to some that he will nerf it?

tuxford is in the business of nerfing and making amarr ships useless all over the board, one after the other.




no, neuts will stay the same, nos get a nerf cause they are much of a I-Win button, especially on domis -.-

Hydrogen
Enterprise Estonia
Session Changes
Posted - 2006.08.01 10:00:00 - [13]
 

Yarrr reminds me about those special situations:
1. in UO with the introduction of UO:R and then Trammel
2. in AO, when PvP zones were introduced and that nice plasma gun was removed from game
3. in DAOC when the carebears had the assassin classes nerfed (dual axe anyone?) - yarrr
4. in Shadowbane when prelates got nerfed - was about time as it was actually fun
5. in ...

Those situations got one thing in common: carebears crying for a nerf.

Well there is one funny thing to it: there is a pattern. Except DAOC (which was somehow a carebear's game by definition) all those games slowly died after those changes.

To me it goes somethign like this:
- there seems to be a group of hardcore PvPers for MMORPG's
- when decent PvP is possible, those hardcore PvPers rally in that game and make hell break loose (those people even got a forum :) )
- when hell breaks loose, a game becomes interesting: decent people offer decent suggestions and the game evolves by support of those special players. Also the community is sane, mature and cooperative which results in a decent community
- "The Swarm" of some filthy carebears realizes that there is a game where hell broke loose and people are actually having fun
- needless to say that those carebears join and start to voice their need to stop having fun. After all: messing with others game experience is the only thing those carebears have fun with
- the breakdown, which follows is obvious, or what does one expect if someone listens to stubborn kids who cant even write one correct sentence?

Julio Torres
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2006.08.01 10:29:00 - [14]
 

My Pilgrim should remain unaffected.
Neutralisers powered by Cap Booster


But these "leech" ships should be a exception to the proposed changes. They got no offensive capabilities, we depend on paralyzing our target.

I love this ship, the hunt is amazing.

Kunming
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2006.08.01 10:34:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Hydrogen
Yarrr reminds me about those special situations:
1. in UO with the introduction of UO:R and then Trammel
2. in AO, when PvP zones were introduced and that nice plasma gun was removed from game
3. in DAOC when the carebears had the assassin classes nerfed (dual axe anyone?) - yarrr
4. in Shadowbane when prelates got nerfed - was about time as it was actually fun
5. in ...

Those situations got one thing in common: carebears crying for a nerf.

Well there is one funny thing to it: there is a pattern. Except DAOC (which was somehow a carebear's game by definition) all those games slowly died after those changes.

To me it goes somethign like this:
- there seems to be a group of hardcore PvPers for MMORPG's
- when decent PvP is possible, those hardcore PvPers rally in that game and make hell break loose (those people even got a forum :) )
- when hell breaks loose, a game becomes interesting: decent people offer decent suggestions and the game evolves by support of those special players. Also the community is sane, mature and cooperative which results in a decent community
- "The Swarm" of some filthy carebears realizes that there is a game where hell broke loose and people are actually having fun
- needless to say that those carebears join and start to voice their need to stop having fun. After all: messing with others game experience is the only thing those carebears have fun with
- the breakdown, which follows is obvious, or what does one expect if someone listens to stubborn kids who cant even write one correct sentence?


Much agreed...

I thought the NOS nerf came when missles and projectiles were not using any cap anymore... the only thing ppl complain about is that a heavy BS-sized NOS has the same effect on a smaller size ship.

The balance I had in mind was reducing the effect of NOS on smaller ships, by giving it a sig radius like turrets (TUX stated that he was against this and I would like to know why really).

Amarr and Gallente are the most cap consuming 2 races out there, when I fit a Nos on my blasterboat its not to suck the enemy dry really, but more to keep my guns firing. But on the other hand we have ships using the Nos as an offensive weapon (like the domi/curse/raven) instead of just as a help to keep modules active, and deal their dmg with NON-cap-consuming weapons (drones/missiles), considering cap=life it IS overpowering.

It is 2 different worlds really, nerfing NOS will balance it for 1 side, while underpowering the other.

Sammiel
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.08.01 17:27:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Hydrogen
Yarrr reminds me about those special situations:
1. in UO with the introduction of UO:R and then Trammel
2. in AO, when PvP zones were introduced and that nice plasma gun was removed from game
3. in DAOC when the carebears had the assassin classes nerfed (dual axe anyone?) - yarrr
4. in Shadowbane when prelates got nerfed - was about time as it was actually fun
5. in ...

Those situations got one thing in common: carebears crying for a nerf.

Well there is one funny thing to it: there is a pattern. Except DAOC (which was somehow a carebear's game by definition) all those games slowly died after those changes.

To me it goes somethign like this:
- there seems to be a group of hardcore PvPers for MMORPG's
- when decent PvP is possible, those hardcore PvPers rally in that game and make hell break loose (those people even got a forum :) )
- when hell breaks loose, a game becomes interesting: decent people offer decent suggestions and the game evolves by support of those special players. Also the community is sane, mature and cooperative which results in a decent community
- "The Swarm" of some filthy carebears realizes that there is a game where hell broke loose and people are actually having fun
- needless to say that those carebears join and start to voice their need to stop having fun. After all: messing with others game experience is the only thing those carebears have fun with
- the breakdown, which follows is obvious, or what does one expect if someone listens to stubborn kids who cant even write one correct sentence?


Right, those nasty carebears always come and nerf the things you love. Or maybe its because the devs don't like how NOS works in that it is a no brainer for the most part when determining what to fit in extra highs and the best counter for NOS is more NOS. But I'm sure actually examining that is far beyond your ability considering the above rant.

My god, they will have to use neuts to drain 100% of cap. The horror. OMG TEH SHIPS R NURFED!!

As an example, the left axe nerf came as a result of a fairly in depth mathematical analysis of the style growth factors in DAOC by, *gasp*, a PvPer. But I guess its easier to just dream up some carebear conspiracy. Its also amusing that you call DAOC a carebear's game, considering so much of the post 50 experience revolves around PvP.

Skyly
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.08.01 17:45:00 - [17]
 

The problem with this idea, is that without the 3 nos, pilgrim's die.

IMO each race is entitled to at least 1 good ship (Vagabond, Dominix... 'easy mode' Caldari) and the curse/pilgrim is definately my current amarr favourite, as it brings originality to the eve battlefield, please don't give it a good spanking with the nerf bat, there is nothing wrong with it as it is.

It does no worse than ECM at the moment, and in fact, it takes far to long to drain certain ships. When Solo-ing in a curse/pilgrim I never engage anyone with friends in local, because, nevermind how slow their response time is, they will always get there before you finish the kill.

The other negative point is it is very difficult to defeat caldari. Not only do Tracking Disruptors not affect caldari, but when their cap (finally) die's, they can still pound on you, and with the resistances on the curse/pilgrim, 9 times out of 10 you die before they do, especially because of the Cap hungry EW (if you don't use TD's) and the dual rep most amarr recon's fit.

As I say, there is nothing wrong with Amarr recons, and each race deserves at least 1 good ship, especially with the short straw that is Amarr atm...

Nerf Caldari! YARRRR!!

\/Flame Here\/


Spleef
Posted - 2006.08.01 19:00:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Kunming

The balance I had in mind was reducing the effect of NOS on smaller ships, by giving it a sig radius like turrets (TUX stated that he was against this and I would like to know why really).



I think I can explain why, and we are very lucky Tux doesn't like a reduction of effect based on sig radius for everything, for in time EVE would become very broken. All the sig radius effect reductions do is 'normalize' smaller ships against any other type, which taken to the extreme (or as a general nerf technique) will mean a frigate can 1v1 just about anything.

The reason why this technique was used on missiles was because missiles are broken anyway, in the sense they cannot miss. As such a sig radius based damage reduction was the only solution.

Gunnery uses sig radius to determine chance of hit, which is a very different system. There is is no artificial and automatic damage reduction curve applied when engaging a smaller ship.

Hope that makes sense and you can see the game breaking nature of nerfing a bigger ship versus a smaller ship in all cases.

Erive Ila'Kanis
Posted - 2006.08.01 20:18:00 - [19]
 

The Nos is effective because it does several key things: It gives you cap, removes cap from your opposition and can potentially lockdown a ship to prohibit them from putting up a fight.

It can be noted that currently the races effected most by this are Amarr and Gally, as their primary weapons use cap to fire where Caldari and Mini generally don't. (Missiles/Projectiles)

So then, onto our question, are Nos overpowered? As many before me seem to have stated in this thread, the key nossing ships of present are the Nossing domi and the amarr recon ships. I know every ship can fit a Nos, but these tend to be your major Nos users.

A ship like the domi, a battleship using nos can easily lockdown a frigate or cruiser class ships by simply sucking them dry while its drones act as its weapon and take care of the opposition. To battleships this is a more risky thing which generally doesn't work well in fleet battles as far as I have seen. This has fair success in small engagements where they can have the time needed to drain their opposition.

Now, the amarr recon will be kept brief and be more opinionated. If the Gally one can scramble at 50km, the Mini one can web at 40km and the Caldari one can be a super jammer yet prettier version of the scorp, then the amarr recon should be free to be a happy nos machine.

From this you can say a Nos is like jamming, where rather then instant lockdown they allow the target time to give a ZOMG MY CAP! where, if they can not or choose not to avoid it, results in them being locked down unable to fight in a way jamming does.

Nos differs from jamming on several things, range plays a large factor where jammers work 50+km and you'll never get a nos over 25km without using officer stuff or a fancy ship such as an amarr recon ships. The other key difference is time, where jammers are instant sucking someone dry takes time. Yes I know a bs nos can hurt frigs/cruisers quick but we'll get to that.

So, do I think Nos are overpowered? Not really, they are good in small gangs but in fleet battles they are a poor choice compared to racial jammers or in some cases sensor dampeners/target painters. The real bone I have to pick with them is their ability to point and click cap off a frig/cruiser in one volley of several, or through a destabilizer which is silly. If they are to be nerfed, I believe the best way to do it would be a sig based thing like what happened to missiles awhile ago to reduce their I-win button some. To make a portion of ones cap immune to nossing would have been near on par with nerfing missiles by saying they can't shoot structure, go get some rail guns. Which is, effectively what would happen if you did that. That is to say, nos can't take that last bit, go get a destabilizer.

Dingleberry
Posted - 2006.08.01 22:13:00 - [20]
 

whatever changes they do make to NOS I just hope they dont nerf the amarr recons into big piles of wasted isk and skill training time.

If they implement the cap battery idea, then add a bonus to amarr recons that allows cap betteries to be drained, or at least alow neutralizers to kill the battery energy.

For a sig radius change, give amarr recons a bonus-per-level that gives a decreased factor of sig radius for NOS/Neut.

NOS does need a nerf, I totaly agree but I don't think that ships that are made to use NOS ie. have bonus's for NOS should be made useless. just the same as I dont think caldari ecm ships should be crap after the ecm nerf, they should be givin bonus's(hidden or not) that make theese ships nearly or just as good as before the nerf and keep theese ships usefull for what they are MADE for.

Untill ccp decides exactly what they want to do with nos, I'll be putting my recon ships skill to level 5 on hold tyvm.

Aberash
eXceed Inc.
Minor Threat.
Posted - 2006.08.02 01:36:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Aberash on 02/08/2006 01:36:00
dont change nos, a class of ship that is dependant on the damn things will just get borked and once again 2 more Amarr T2 Cruisers thrown into the "not so good" pile, along with the sac, please dont make me smash my head against the wall for training Amarr Cruiser V, if this change happens the only good amarr t2 cruiser will be the zealot (inflated market prices ftl).


Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.08.02 02:21:00 - [22]
 

A bot more "the sky is falling", please?

Changed Nos != useless Nos.

It really depends where this cap limit will be. If it's 50% it will become indeed pretty much usless, if it's 20% you can easily kill the last of the cap with a neut - especially if the other ship has to do other stuff with it as well, like tanking. Curse/Pilgrims bonus applies on those, too, you know?

Drused
The Scope
Posted - 2006.08.02 03:26:00 - [23]
 

Joy, another change to make battleships even more suspectable to being destroyed by small ships.

Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2006.08.02 03:40:00 - [24]
 

Will have 2 pilgrim pilots by the end of the year... I am not going to stop training the second just because something gets balanced. Only gits do that.

Hydrogen
Enterprise Estonia
Session Changes
Posted - 2006.08.02 07:41:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Sammiel
As an example, the left axe nerf came as a result of a fairly in depth mathematical analysis of the style growth factors in DAOC by, *gasp*, a PvPer. But I guess its easier to just dream up some carebear conspiracy. Its also amusing that you call DAOC a carebear's game, considering so much of the post 50 experience revolves around PvP.


I could now start to call lihp a carebear, but that could be a blatant lie ;)

Actually the carebear conspiracy theory is not that far away if you take a close look at those games. And yes, compared to the others (AO and UO before those changes) I consider DAOC a carebear's game.

Cryselle
Posted - 2006.08.02 07:52:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Cryselle on 02/08/2006 07:52:27
Next thing will be, that Tuxford removes the only med slot of the Retribution and calls "Amarr fixed". Very Happy

Is it surprising that he doesn't fly Amarr at all. Probably got killed by a Curse or Pilgrim.

Cullivan
Posted - 2006.08.02 08:03:00 - [27]
 

Personally I think Nos should have a reduced effect against targets with higher speeds. That way frigates could actually stand up to battleships for a while, at least until they get webbed.

mysts
Posted - 2006.08.02 08:06:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: mysts on 02/08/2006 08:07:24
Atm I am training for a curse, like its role in a gang, but as far as I see, everything that is able to do something against a frig/interceptor gets nerfed nowadays ... so new proposal to the devs :

- Why not just remove all the ship types beyond frigates ? it's obvious that will bring the much sought balance, and then, the game will become more like some of the devs think of it.

I mean come on, have you ever seen 1 (ONE) and alone (ALONE) x-wing destroying an imperial battleship ? or how many of you are watching star trek, anyone seen a small ship killing a Galaxy class ship (and no, I don't mean uber advanced tech, since jove ships are not yet in :p). That's like come on, have some common sense, every large ship has a mean to defend against smaller ships, otherwise even a Greenpeace life boat would be able to kill a well armed cruiser ( match the sizes, not the names), and that didn't nor will ever happen. Get some evality ( eve reality :p) checks, and leave those small ships where they belong.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.08.02 08:09:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: mysts
I mean come on, have you ever seen 1 (ONE) and alone (ALONE) x-wing destroying an imperial battleship ?


A A-Wing destroyed an Superstardestroyer... Razz
Either way, this is not Star Wars.

mysts
Posted - 2006.08.02 08:10:00 - [30]
 

nah, it just crashed into the command bridge, but as can be seen those controls can be rerouted to another deck :p

and yeah, ofc this ain't Star Treck or whatever, but the common sense is there to be used :)


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