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Kldraina
Posted - 2006.07.29 01:26:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Kldraina on 29/07/2006 01:49:25
Since Tux mentioned that we should try to figure out how to make the mentioned new Battleships balanced rather than complain about how they might make things unbalanced, I thought I would try to get people started on that.

First question: If there is no practical limit in PG or CPU, (I.E. the numbers are rediculously high) what setup would make the Abaddon into an OMGWTFYAARRBBQ ship?

Edit: In response to below post, I am assuming an 8-4-8 slot layout currently. Though it might also be nice to see 8-3-8 setups if 8-4-8 proves to be easily breakable.

Yoshimako
Posted - 2006.07.29 01:43:00 - [2]
 

without knowing the slot layouts we cant really say can we?

I did see that someone speculated on 8.4.8 which is probably fair.
A pvp setup (short term (ie needs heavy resupply)) could go sommin like this.

highs:
8x dual heavy pulse

meds:
1x web
1x scram
2x Large cap boosters with 800's

Lows:
2x EANM 2's
1x dmg control
2x LAR's
2x 1600mm rolled tungsten plates
1x HS2

Should be just about sustainable for aslong as you have cap charges. Will tank pretty damn well (130ish rep/s, 17-18000 armor hp's and nearly 70% resists across the board(all aproximate)) and (assuming it has a drone bay similar to that of the Geddon) should push out around 700 dps.


Captin Biltmore
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2006.07.29 01:59:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Captin Biltmore on 29/07/2006 02:13:52
Originally by: Yoshimako
without knowing the slot layouts we cant really say can we?

I did see that someone speculated on 8.4.8 which is probably fair.
A pvp setup (short term (ie needs heavy resupply)) could go sommin like this.

highs:
8x dual heavy pulse

meds:
1x web
1x scram
2x Large cap boosters with 800's

Lows:
2x EANM 2's
1x dmg control
2x LAR's
2x 1600mm rolled tungsten plates
1x HS2

Should be just about sustainable for aslong as you have cap charges. Will tank pretty damn well (130ish rep/s, 17-18000 armor hp's and nearly 70% resists across the board(all aproximate)) and (assuming it has a drone bay similar to that of the Geddon) should push out around 700 dps.




It won't have an 8x4x8 layout...that was in the dev blog "Whether it has one more slot than the Apocalypse isn't really decided but its quite clear that if it does then it will be a med slot.". So it will either be 8x5x7 (if it get's 1 more slot) or 8x4x7 (if it doesn't get the extra slot), OR 8x3x8 as the dev blog hinted at. Personally I think 8x5x7 would be my choice.

Oh, and to make it balanced...it MUST have a -50% reduction to energy turrets. For the second bonus....it needs to push the direction of the ship away from the geddon and apoc to make it unique but still balanced. I'd like to see a bonus to either Tachyon fitting (aren't amarr supposed to be feared for their Tachyons?? but no ship can fit a rack of them without serious fitting help), or possibly a 5% damage bonus. Damage bonus wouldn't use as much cap as a ROF bonus (also wouldn't give you as much DOT)...however with a damage bonus we could have more cap left over for other things (such as tanking, or ew).

Personally I'd rather have a dedicated Tachyon boat simular to the Tier 3 Caldari Rohk. One thing is clear though, if it has the grid to fit the tachs (a full rack) it would be overpowered, cause you could fit out megapulse and a huge tank no sweat...to fit a full rack it needs a fitting bonus. And that would be unique and balanced.

(I'm really not in favor of a damage bonus, but it's better than a ROF bonus when cap is your life)

Kldraina
Posted - 2006.07.29 02:08:00 - [4]
 

The dev blog was pretty clear about it having 8 highs and 8 lows.

Weirda
Minmatar
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2006.07.29 02:27:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Weirda on 29/07/2006 02:28:01
Originally by: Kldraina
The dev blog was pretty clear about it having 8 highs and 8 lows.


aye and the 'quite clear it will be a mid slot' was a joke referring to fact that it already had 8 highs and 8 lows. (so it would be 8.3.8 if it had same number of slot as apoc, or 8.4.8 if it had more) Laughing

Justin Cody
Caldari
T.A.L.O.N. Company
B4D W01F
Posted - 2006.07.29 02:34:00 - [6]
 

or *shudders with intense pleasure* 8/5/8?


Yoshimako
Posted - 2006.07.29 03:03:00 - [7]
 

lol you can garantee that it wont be 8-5-8.
I personally would quite happily use the setup i posted previous however, in that event you have pretty much rendered the geddon useless.

A tach boat would be sweet but very hard to implement. You give it a bonus to fit tachs and its damage is lacking, you give it a bonus to damage and most people probably wont fit tachs.

With the current idea the abaddon could run a good tach setup. Nice damage and a good passive tank(good for fleet). However because we have suddenly lost our cap use bonus, it can barely be sustained without constantly poping cap chargers left and right.

If i am right, lasers were, effectively, given an internal damage mod at the cost of high cap usage. This was then balanced by giving amarr ships, the cap reduction bonus, right? Only trouble is, as you all know, the damage bonus is now negated because of our damage type on people's resists. yet we are still using a ship bonus just to be able to use our 'high damage' weapons, which now do average to below average damage.

sort out our damage issue (either new dmg types, boost dmg mod on weaps, reduce cap use and give us new bonus's or sort out the resists.) and this ship will be perfectly fine as it is now. I can think of a number of good setups already, but most are negated by this issue.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.07.29 03:37:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Ath Amon on 29/07/2006 03:39:25
no limit?

ok
high
8 megapulse t2 (or tachs)

mid
1 cap injector
3 tracking comp or 1 tracking comp + 2 eccm

low
1 energized adaptive nano t2
3 heatsink t2
4 1600 plates t2

if for long range mid 3 (sensor booster/tracking comp and eventually low tracking instead of a plate)

gang/fleet dps machine, no rep but probably around 60-70% res and 25k armor imho quite a scaring ship

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.07.29 04:07:00 - [9]
 

well there's two things on this abbadon debacle that I still don't compreend:

1 - Tuxford said the ship was able to dish damage or tank and not both. Why people insist in trying to do both things at same time?

2 - cap stats haven't been released yet. the picture you guys saw is outdated by a few months. So why is people gearing up for the worse?

Yoshimako
Posted - 2006.07.29 04:12:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Yoshimako on 29/07/2006 04:16:10
It can tank just fine. It cannot however deal damage to a good enough level to warrant having no tank (it has 1 more gun then a Geddon).

As i said in my previous post a full gank Tach setup would be sweet, but having to pop boosters left and right to run a setup that does only marginaly better damage then the geddon is out of wack. The problem isnt nessicarily with the ship..

*edit* I will admit that it is possible they have counteracted the loss of the cap penalty to a degree, by boosting the cap ammount and recharge but i should imagine it would be by much.

Im not gearing up for the worst, im just worried that it cant do want ccp want it to and it will eith be pretty useless or actually make the geddon obsolete (see my first setup).

Kldraina
Posted - 2006.07.29 04:45:00 - [11]
 

Personally, I'm expecting it to be more like Ath Amon's setup in final use than Yoshimako's as Yoshimako is still trying to use cap for tanking, while Ath Amon is relying upon Hit points.

I wonder though, if Ath Amon's setup is dangerous enough to be a reason to limit PG/CPU specifically to prevent it. Often arguments to not raise PG or CPU on a ship, revolve around some setups that become possible, being too good. I'm kinda looking for that setup on the Abaddon. At what point does adding more PG and CPU make it too powerful? Obviously Capital equipment needs to be ruled out, but besides that, what is too powerful?

P.S. I'm guessing it will have similar cap to the Geddon.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.07.29 05:17:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Ath Amon on 29/07/2006 05:19:12
mah dunno if it will be overpowered... it could be...

basically with that setup you can sit at 50-60km, outside the range of all close weapons and near enought to give some tracking troubles to ships with long range setups.

not that it matters too much as you can outdamage even most close range gank setups in their optimal and do around 1/3 more dps than a raven (the ship that atm probably perform better at that rance)

the problem here are the EM resists so the "real damage difference" between the 2 ships is probably not that high...

Requiescat
Red Arsenal
Posted - 2006.07.29 05:37:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Justin Cody
or *shudders with intense pleasure* 8/5/8?


Avatar much?

Delene
Amarr
InNova Tech Inc
Ethereal Dawn
Posted - 2006.07.29 05:47:00 - [14]
 

give it a
+7.5% armor rep bonus (instead of rof)

give it a 5 missiles/5 turrrets layout

Yes, I know, stupid idea. Embarassed

Caesar Galactus
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.07.29 05:52:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Delene
give it a
+7.5% armor rep bonus (instead of rof)

give it a 5 missiles/5 turrrets layout

Yes, I know, stupid idea. Embarassed



If there's no cap usage bonus, 4 missile launchers instead of 4 turrets would be just fine by me. The 4 turrets would be using as much as 8 with a cap bonus anyway, freeing up the cap use bonus for RoF, resists, etc.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2006.07.29 07:23:00 - [16]
 

Abaddon is a mobile Yamato gun.

LWMaverick
Posted - 2006.07.29 08:37:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Delene

give it a 5 missiles/5 turrrets layout

Yes, I know, stupid idea. Embarassed




Mad NO!

BirdBleed
H A V O C
Posted - 2006.07.29 09:22:00 - [18]
 

How about change the bonuses to

5% large energy turret DMG
+50 to drone bay per lvl

have a 8/4/8

There it doesnt outclass the domi, it doesnt out tank the apoc, gedon still has its place, It can field all sorts of drones, including nos drones to help overcome cap problems. Its a bit more versatile than the current amarr BS.

thoughts ? :)



Imperial Coercion
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.29 09:35:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Imperial Coercion on 29/07/2006 09:35:32
8-5-7

Bonus : 10% bonus to Large tachyon capacitor use
5% damage to large tachyon per level




Cool



Brother Tycho
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.29 10:00:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Brother Tycho on 29/07/2006 10:46:38
I cant see this Abaddon working unless cap charge sizes are dropped down inline with ammo, amarr dont use ammo argument is bull**** fly a pvp fitted Geddon for a couple of years and say it again.

Atm i can carry the Grand total of fourteen 800 charges with Crystals.

To use a tanking Geddon with a full rack of pulses and maxed out skills takes 2 cap relays and 2 cap chargers, and then you can fire and tank, withought a cap injector.

If i was makeing the Abaddon from scratch it would have to be a 8/5/7 with -10% cap use on lasers and 5% resists.

I would change the Apoc to have a -10% cap use on lasers with 10% Opt range Bonus.

I would leave the Geddon Bonuses alone and give it a little more CPU and 1 launcher slot.

This imo would give the Amarr BS's 3 seprate roles, Geddon for close range DPS, Apoc for long range fleet combat and Abaddon as a Med Ranged Tanker with fair DPS.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.07.29 10:05:00 - [21]
 

I just find it strange that after the tux said that they want to make combat longer we get a BS which, in dps mode, is geared towards making combat as short as possible, because it cannot sustain it's dps.

Or that, after he said the tier 3 BSs are not supposed to make other BSs obsolete but add something new amarr gets one which makes, depending on fitting, BOTH it's previous BSs obsolete.

One "alternate bonus" idea which ran through my head was perhaps a similar Nos/neut bonus as the curse gets. A dedicated tank-breaking ship for the amarr fleets, so to speak. Would make sense IMO, since breaking tanks is one of the problems amarr have atm.

Alliandre Breton
Infinitus Odium
Posted - 2006.07.29 11:05:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: BirdBleed
How about change the bonuses to

5% large energy turret DMG
+50 to drone bay per lvl

have a 8/4/8

There it doesnt outclass the domi, it doesnt out tank the apoc, gedon still has its place, It can field all sorts of drones, including nos drones to help overcome cap problems. Its a bit more versatile than the current amarr BS.

thoughts ? :)




How will nos drones help it overcome its cap problem?

Madcat Adams
Amarr
Romulan Technologies Limited
Posted - 2006.07.29 11:41:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Alliandre Breton
Originally by: BirdBleed
How about change the bonuses to

5% large energy turret DMG
+50 to drone bay per lvl

have a 8/4/8

There it doesnt outclass the domi, it doesnt out tank the apoc, gedon still has its place, It can field all sorts of drones, including nos drones to help overcome cap problems. Its a bit more versatile than the current amarr BS.

thoughts ? :)




How will nos drones help it overcome its cap problem?


Perhaps to try to make the other guy run outa cap first? Won't actually make the Abaddon run longer, but if the other guy runs shorter it all works out. Cool

Darwinia
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.07.30 07:30:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Delene
give it a
+7.5% armor rep bonus (instead of rof)

give it a 5 missiles/5 turrrets layout

Yes, I know, stupid idea. Embarassed



Hmm..

Name: Abaddon
Class: Siege Battleship
Role: Anti-POS, Anti-Capital ships warfare, Support

Description:
With the introduction of more and more capital ships into combat, a new battleship was needed that could withstand the huge damage output of the modern fleet combat.

Yeah... who would want that.. stupid.



 

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