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Adun Torivas
Posted - 2006.07.23 23:45:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Adun Torivas on 24/07/2006 01:22:27
The inital reason i am posting this, is basically that apart from rat strength and ore type the sec ratings 0.4-0.1 have no real meaning, so i was thinking why not to do the following:
in 0.4 u can attack in T1 Frigs and Destroyers without Concord interfering;
in 0.3 u can attack wit T1 Cruisers and T2/T1 Frigs & Destroyers;
in 0.2 T2 Cruisers and BC + all ships smaller can attack and finally,
in 0.1 BS, T2 BC's and everthing smaller can do what they want.

in 0.0 anything goes...

while many pirates might cry now, dont u think that this might lure more people into low sec. and also get more people to do more pvp?

Also in 0.1-0.4 space the attackers sec. rating should only be affected by podding...


comments?

talonXI
MASS HOMICIDE
Posted - 2006.07.24 00:27:00 - [2]
 

what I've always wondered is why it's all or nothing - IE .5 is "safe" while .4 is totally unsafe (barring turrets at gates and stations). I've thought perhaps having .4 and .3 be ship- but not pod- kills and I bet a lot of people would be more willing to venture out. I know I'd find it much easier to replace even a battleship than all my implants.

It wouldn't even be too hard from a storyline perspective - something about how concord is attempting to include these systems in their control and can only respond to the most dire of distress calls. On the other hand I'm sure by the time concord got there it would be too late 99.999% of the time.

Adun Torivas
Posted - 2006.07.24 01:25:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: talonXI
what I've always wondered is why it's all or nothing - IE .5 is "safe" while .4 is totally unsafe (barring turrets at gates and stations). I've thought perhaps having .4 and .3 be ship- but not pod- kills and I bet a lot of people would be more willing to venture out. I know I'd find it much easier to replace even a battleship than all my implants.

It wouldn't even be too hard from a storyline perspective - something about how concord is attempting to include these systems in their control and can only respond to the most dire of distress calls. On the other hand I'm sure by the time concord got there it would be too late 99.999% of the time.


precisely my point, it is one thing to rob somebody, killing somebody is something much more serious...

codepic
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.07.24 07:42:00 - [4]
 

Why not just make CONCORD response a bit more realistic

  • in 0.5 there is a slight chance that concord will not appear

  • in 0.4 there is a bigger chance that concord will not appear

  • CONCORD would still be overpowered but it would be easier to run from CONCORD and get away

  • CONCORD could and would follow the violators into a next system even though it would be lower sec or even 0.0

  • You could actually hurt CONCORD taking some of their ships down

  • If in some 0.5 system CONCORD would not be able to catch the outlaws repeatedly, also loosing a lot of ships, that system would become under a special condition when outlaws could try to gain control over the system and if they manage to do it, the security status of the system would be lowered

  • Similarly a 0.4 system could become a 0.5 system if CONCORD would be successfull there




Drizit
Amarr
Posted - 2006.07.24 07:44:00 - [5]
 

Although I agree, this is going to get hammered by the hardcore PVP players.

However, moving players down the scale in terms of sec rating is far easier in gradual steps. As it stands, taking the plunge into lowsec is a big jump that many are unwilling to take. Making this a gradual incline means that more will move into lowsec and realise their own potential in PVP. Losing a ship is hard but losing your pod as well is not something a first timer feels that they can face.

There's nothing stopping the pirates, they can still ransom the ship rather than the pod in 0.4 this way. As you move lower down, they can increase their demands to include the pod.

Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2006.07.24 08:07:00 - [6]
 

I wuld go for specialised pirate and carebear modules like;

-S.O.S. signal emitter;
You need to buy a special type of insurance or pay a regular bill to concord for additional protection.
Then, You wuld have a module or a deployable thingy, to use in truble. Effective sec status for You wuld then go up for You (how much - depents on how much You pay concord for it, and maybe skill and module version) and You have a chance of concord recue if You're still alive (or revenge if not). this wuld make systems 0.3 to 0.4 more survivable for those whu wuld like to count on concord help 15 seconds later. Pirates wuld gat a warning and perhaps see a flashing and destructible buoy (as deployable version).

-S.O.S. signal scrambler;
Counter to that, and also to normal concord response, that wuld simply come a bit later. Also as a deployble or module (depending od devs taste), this wuld give a real chance to pirate in 0.5, efectively making its yellow color meaningfull :)

Dutarro
Matari Munitions
The Fendahlian Collective
Posted - 2006.07.24 10:54:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Dutarro on 24/07/2006 10:54:38
Originally by: Adun Torivas
...in 0.4 u can attack in T1 Frigs and Destroyers without Concord interfering;
in 0.3 u can attack wit T1 Cruisers and T2/T1 Frigs & Destroyers;
in 0.2 T2 Cruisers and BC + all ships smaller can attack and finally,
in 0.1 BS, T2 BC's and everthing smaller can do what they want.

in 0.0 anything goes...



Not a bad idea, actually. In other words, player pirates are allowed to attack in ships comparable to the NPC rats found in that system's belts.


Cecil Montague
Minmatar
The-Forsaken
The Forsaken.
Posted - 2006.07.24 10:59:00 - [8]
 

If you did this it would have to include sentry guns too. If you are in 0.4 and attack someone with a T1 frig then no sentry help for the victim either as sentry guns don't shoot the NPCs at gates when they attack you.

Anything else would almost certainly spell the end of low sec piracy as i can't see them wasting time under those conditions.

Adun Torivas
Posted - 2006.07.24 12:37:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Cecil Montague
If you did this it would have to include sentry guns too. If you are in 0.4 and attack someone with a T1 frig then no sentry help for the victim either as sentry guns don't shoot the NPCs at gates when they attack you.

Anything else would almost certainly spell the end of low sec piracy as i can't see them wasting time under those conditions.


i would rather make the sentry guns shoot NPCs as well, since it is illogical that gallente sentries (even in high sec, with customs an concord) tolerate serpentis ships...

however i would deacitvate the general aggression timer for such attacks, since concord did not see and 'processed' you for commiting a crime.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.07.24 12:46:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Drizit
Although I agree, this is going to get hammered by the hardcore PVP players.

However, moving players down the scale in terms of sec rating is far easier in gradual steps. As it stands, taking the plunge into lowsec is a big jump that many are unwilling to take.


That's more because there are FAR too few links between 0.5 and 04...the interface is on MAJOR trade routes and straight line links to 0.0 entrances.

Make lowsec more dangerous with no corresponding increase in reward and you WILL make some people run for highsec. Increasing the reward will mean less do..but some still will.

Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2006.07.24 12:55:00 - [11]
 

More reward is all You need (besides love).
90% of lvl 4 missions to lowsec - even if You get them in high sec, they shuld be done in low. Its silly, that on daily basis whole big angel BS fleets enter high sec and noone notices that :) How they do this?
And make hemorphite and hedbergite more worth mining in isk per hour (now they seem to be only a double veld income. But not nercesarily in zyd and mega, that wuld make deeper 0.0 less worth mining.
And put more complexes there.
And more good traderoutes.

And a few conquerable stations perhaps :)

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.07.24 12:59:00 - [12]
 

You really need to make more 0.4-0.5 links before you make the mission runners go there... be a slaughter otherwise.

Zakgram
POW ZAP THWAPP
Posted - 2006.07.24 14:15:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Zakgram on 24/07/2006 14:24:50
Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon
More reward is all You need (besides love).
90% of lvl 4 missions to lowsec - even if You get them in high sec, they shuld be done in low. Its silly, that on daily basis whole big angel BS fleets enter high sec and noone notices that :) How they do this?


This doesn't feel like a reward; this just makes level 4 missions riskier since anybody with a probe can find ships doing missions in lowsec and warp to the gates. Since mission setups are totally different to PVP setups due to the inability for NPCs to think, why would we want to risk faction-fitted ships to easy ganks?

BTW - my agent notices them angel bs' and asks me to go get em.

Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon
And make hemorphite and hedbergite more worth mining in isk per hour (now they seem to be only a double veld income. But not nercesarily in zyd and mega, that wuld make deeper 0.0 less worth mining.


You could move crok to 0.4 but it still wouldn't make deeper 0.0 mining less worthy. 0.4 is just as bad as 0.0 when mining with the added disadvantage that most of the people appearing on local probably aren't friends but also how can you spot the pirates? At least in 0.0 you know when someone appears in local that shouldn't be there you can easily tell and decide to warp away or not.

Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon

And put more complexes there.


Having been attacked in complexes I can tell you that the risk/reward isn't worth it compared to missioning. Anywhere where 1 player with PVP setup can attack 1 player with NPC setup due to the complex/mission being in lowsec means that it's better to not bother. Fix the NPC to make them fight like players so we can then fit proper PVP fittings... then this might be workable.

Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon

And more good traderoutes.


That'd be nice - but doesn't scale. e.g. there are over 24,000 active players at one time - when I joined we were at about 13,000 active players. They'd have to double the number of trade routes a year to keep up with the number of players.

Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2006.07.24 14:47:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 24/07/2006 14:48:00
Originally by: Zakgram
Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon
More reward is all You need (besides love).
90% of lvl 4 missions to lowsec

This doesn't feel like a reward; this just makes level 4 missions riskier since anybody with a probe can find ships doing missions in lowsec and warp to the gates. Since mission setups are totally different to PVP setups due to the inability for NPCs to think, why would we want to risk faction-fitted ships to easy ganks?
BTW - my agent notices them angel bs' and asks me to go get em.


Yes, but thats a very little response to an invasion. There are game events in news where much smaller security breach is described and commented as a catastrophy. In the same time, hourdeds of angel BS fleets come freely to safe space, do there nothing and corps send single, private pilots to clear them out, will they succeed or fail, noone really cares. Dozens of angel BS fleets are a thing belonging to lowsec.
Anyways, mission running in low sec is relatively safe. I did it for weeks in 0.1 and nothing happend to me even when a war passed that place. I had few pvp encounters, but nothing realy dangerous. Noone ever took time to scanprobe mission runners, probes are not really so popular, they need that probing skill in 5 to be fully usefull, and need player skill, not only character, and even with that, most mission locations are outside biggest triangle. So, in a system with about 30 resident runners and a war, it was a rare case, battles at station and gate camps were dominant. So, still not much danger, but some thrill, and You can balance mission running speed with pvp self defense capability or do it in a gang.
Generally, theres no good reason for harders kign od missions, to be perfectly safe and perfectly boring activity.

Quote:
Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon
And make hemorphite and hedbergite more worth mining in isk per hour (now they seem to be only a double veld income. But not nercesarily in zyd and mega, that wuld make deeper 0.0 less worth mining.

You could move crok to 0.4 but it still wouldn't make deeper 0.0 mining less worthy.

Depends.
In 0.4 You cont care much for teritorial wars and have much better availability of stations and highsec is near. There are swarms of people who are not in ally and want not alliance life, but wuld live in 0.1-0.4 if it was worth it.

Quote:
Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon

And more good traderoutes.


That'd be nice - but doesn't scale. e.g. there are over 24,000 active players - when I joined we were at about 13,000 active players. They'd have to double the number of trade routes a year to keep up with the number of players.


NPC trade was nerfed heavily with a more reasonable pricu update mechanics lately. Anyways, in growing player base theres growing player market, but lowsec trade is not very popular and has generally low probabilty of becoming popular enough to use all lowsec traderoutes if we'd make a bit more there.

Diablo Venator
Dopehead Industries
FOUNDATI0N
Posted - 2006.07.24 15:10:00 - [15]
 

IMO, PVP should be encouraged..

So why is it that when we venture into semi low sec (0.4 and below) we loose sec status for attacking anyone with a sec status of 0.0 to -0.5...

Sec status is harder to come by than to loose..

So i propose this..

If you engage in PvP in 0.4 sec and below anyone you attack that already has a negative sec status, you will not loose sec status.. IF you atack first..

If you are attacked by someone that currently has a neg sec status and you have a positive, the sentrys will be on your side. (as sec status should count for something)

This way it would encourage PvP in semi low sec, without the fear of loosing sec status.. Personally i would be more willing to do more PvP if this were the case. But this is my opinion. For one fight you can loose so much sec status, it can take 2 or 3 days to regain.. Depending on how much you play of course.

Diablo..


P.s. Congrats to BoB for winning the torney, although the final was a waste of space.. You won it in the semi.. Fantastic fight.. Very Happy

Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2006.07.24 15:27:00 - [16]
 

There is 0.0 for that.
Lowsec empire is by definition, a space with pvp available, but limited. We're here about encouraging people to ever go there, when they're in, happy combat situations will happen all the time :)

Dutarro
Matari Munitions
The Fendahlian Collective
Posted - 2006.07.24 17:11:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: talonXI
...I've thought perhaps having .4 and .3 be ship- but not pod- kills and I bet a lot of people would be more willing to venture out. I know I'd find it much easier to replace even a battleship than all my implants...


This is a very good idea. Running around .4 or .3 in a relatively cheap ship would be a route to get some PvP experience withing plunging in all the way with the full risk of a pod kill.


Adun Torivas
Posted - 2006.07.24 23:26:00 - [18]
 

actually that is part of the intial idea, which would make PvP for young chars more attractive and safer from griefers, but would also attract more miners to do some lowsec ops. this would be indeed very well balanced because the more saver it is the less profit u make...

ATM few people mount low sec ops, because only a fraction of the party can do mining, so the ore amount is drastically reduced, resulting in the approximately same profit like a high sec. mining op...

Vera Nosfyu
Minmatar
Duragon Pioneer Group
Posted - 2006.07.24 23:50:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Adun Torivas

ATM few people mount low sec ops, because only a fraction of the party can do mining, so the ore amount is drastically reduced, resulting in the approximately same profit like a high sec. mining op...

Not true. I've attacked plenty of people on mining ops in low sec. The reasons there's no many more people on ops in high sec are because:
1. You can do it with a smaller party or even solo. This makes it far easier for newer players and small corps.
2. There is no risk. Many miners do not like the concept of risking losing their ships. I'm not saying this to be mean, it's simply the truth, please also note that this is a generalization not to be applied to every miner. People in noncombat professions tend to be more averse to taking risks.
3. You can do it with macro scripts.

Adun Torivas
Posted - 2006.07.25 00:54:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Vera Nosfyu
Originally by: Adun Torivas

ATM few people mount low sec ops, because only a fraction of the party can do mining, so the ore amount is drastically reduced, resulting in the approximately same profit like a high sec. mining op...

Not true. I've attacked plenty of people on mining ops in low sec. The reasons there's no many more people on ops in high sec are because:
1. You can do it with a smaller party or even solo. This makes it far easier for newer players and small corps.
2. There is no risk. Many miners do not like the concept of risking losing their ships. I'm not saying this to be mean, it's simply the truth, please also note that this is a generalization not to be applied to every miner. People in noncombat professions tend to be more averse to taking risks.
3. You can do it with macro scripts.


Not entirely true..:

1. true, but doing it with a big party earns u as much isk/hour as a lowsec op with security detail
2. There is a risk, especially 0.5 rats can eat ur nice little barge pretty fast, if u r on ur own and illequiped/ -skilled
3. Sure u can but only if u go for veld or plag, things like omber and kernite are heavily mined, read hard to find and not worth macro-mining, not to mention ore thieves and npc rats, which are getting smarter..

Still i think that gradually tolerated PvP actions would make a lot of sense in terms of in-game logic and dev intention to get people to move into low sec...

DeckardIRL
The Randoms
Posted - 2006.07.25 10:37:00 - [21]
 

Low Sec is way more dangerous than 0.0. I have lost more BS in lowsec than I ever will in 0.0. Low Security is a mis-nomer, its 0.0 with a Sec Status hit. There is NO security there, pirates can tank the sentry guns at stations and gates so they are worthless. I think CONCORD should be more graduated from high sec down to 0.0. I dont see why pirates should get an easy time of it... Ganking highsec/ lowsec interfaces... I mean they only fight when they have overwhelming odds otherwise they flee... so getting kills a little harder for them I am all for... push them closer to 0.0 and let them take more risks for their easy kills...

Deckard

Duhmad IbnRa
Gallente
EvE Dynamo
Posted - 2007.05.26 04:38:00 - [22]
 

about sentry response: it is totally illogical atm. Any lowsec POS has ten times the firepower then the stations there, so it would be logical to beef up sentry power and numbers.
However, if as an example a frig attacks another ship outside the station in 0.4 the sentries could easily blow it to pieces in seconds, unfortunately the station commanders just dont give a **** about it..("sentry ammo is expensive ya know, plus we need it when da realy bad guys show up...")

Ona Lim
Posted - 2007.05.26 12:15:00 - [23]
 

I think in low sec you should get flagged with a "ticket" from Concord and you can pay the fine and make the sentry guns stop shooting you.

Could be cool to see it work in .5 as well for Concord.

"You have been caught participating in piracy. You will be assessed a security penalty. Your fine for this incident is 10,000,000 ISK. You have 10 seconds to pay"


adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2007.05.26 18:54:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: talonXI
what I've always wondered is why it's all or nothing - IE .5 is "safe" while .4 is totally unsafe (barring turrets at gates and stations). I've thought perhaps having .4 and .3 be ship- but not pod- kills and I bet a lot of people would be more willing to venture out. I know I'd find it much easier to replace even a battleship than all my implants.

It wouldn't even be too hard from a storyline perspective - something about how concord is attempting to include these systems in their control and can only respond to the most dire of distress calls. On the other hand I'm sure by the time concord got there it would be too late 99.999% of the time.


I like this idea, ship destruction but not pod kills i too believe would bring more people there, including me more often

Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2007.05.26 19:15:00 - [25]
 

What we need is a reason to fight other than shadenfreude. Carebears avoid fighting, seeing it as an unnecessary drain on resources, and PvPers fight just for the satisfaction of fighting. There's no real reason to fight in EvE. Wars accomplish nothing, unless you're in 0.0, which is such a mess that it barely bears consideration for the average player, so all PvP accomplishes is the explosion of a ship. Maybe you make a little money on the loot, but not as much as you'd have made if you spent that time running missions, and the risk is far greater, to boot.

Unless you're gate-camping in low-sec, which barely counts as a fight.

There's no good reason for anyone to have the fun kind of PvP in EvE.

Ryo Jang
Central Defiance
Insurgency
Posted - 2007.05.27 02:53:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader
so all PvP accomplishes is the explosion of a ship. Maybe you make a little money on the loot, but not as much as you'd have made if you spent that time running missions

you havent actually done any low-sec pvp have you?

Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2007.05.27 05:46:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Ryo Jang
you havent actually done any low-sec pvp have you?
I'm not a full-time pirate, but in my experience it takes a whole evening of belt piracy to find and ransom a Covetor, which scores about 15 million isk. Seriously, it was like two hours last time I successfuly found and ransomed a spaceship. The odd windfall CovOps cloak from a Buzzard that doesn't bother to cloak when it's approaching a gate (pre-WTZ) can't be counted on, although it does happen.

If you manage to find and defeat another actual combat pilot, the loot is good, but there's also the risk of losing your stuff in the bargain.

If by "Low-Sec PvP" you mean sitting at a gate in a tanked battlecruiser and ganking haulers, then scooping the loot with an alt, then no, I haven't done that, and I don't think it should be encouraged. It's among the lamest gameplay styles in EvE, and if there was any other way to get fights, I'd be vocal about getting rid of gate camping.

gnshadowninja
Caldari
We See Dead People
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2007.05.27 12:07:00 - [28]
 

I agree with most ideas here, it would be nice to see the games 'guards or police' be more realistic, we pay taxs to the country for police so why shouldn't we on eve? i think it should be a op, you either buy it and get protection or you don't and take a chance... but even if you do by it theres certain levels of protection like
High - 25% they will come
Medium - 15%
Low - 5%

This will make any pvper wonder aswell before attacking if concord will come or not.


Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2007.05.27 20:03:00 - [29]
 

How about if low-sec is just patrolled by faction police, and faction standings (of attacker and target both) determines the speed and fury of the response? If a neutral or even low-standing hauler gets waylaid in Caldari space by a +9.5 mission runner for the Caldari Navy, they'll make a little note of the attack in their logs, and maybe drop the standings slightly to show disaproval, but they won't really hold it against you.

Duhmad IbnRa
Gallente
EvE Dynamo
Posted - 2007.05.31 01:08:00 - [30]
 

also a nice idea, the original idea is pretty good as well. I think there are a lot option to improve low sec. most importantly though, the sheer number of different suggestions implies that low sec needs to be fixed.


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