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welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2006.07.19 00:16:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Noriath
The problem cannot be solved by only allowing ECM ships to use ECM. It would still be overpowered.


No it wouldn't.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.07.19 00:21:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Maya Rkell on 19/07/2006 00:24:17
Originally by: Sarmaul
1) Remove multispecs.
2) Racials have 0 chance to jam on the wrong ship.


Then basically you've removed much of the effectiveness of ECM, except against corps like PIE. Certainly you can't afford to have ships with multiple modules of a type on if they might be useless. Further, it's NOT a solution in any way, shape or form for the REAL problem which is it srops you hitting ANYONE while jammed.

Originally by: Sarmaul
3) My preference is to have ECCM give +2 relockable targets (i.e. if you get jammed all your locks are broken but you can relock 2 targets) for each module fitted, and Backup Arrays give +1 relockable targets.


So 1 module allways lets you bypass ECM by simply relocking using your nifty senspr booster and allowing you to continue focusing fire. Uhm..

Originally by: Sarmaul
4) Restrict ECM, Damps, Painter and Disruptor modules to their dedicated ewar ships. If people want to use the functionality outside of those ships then they should train up the relevant drones.


So basically, ECM is the ONLY EW relevant in larger scale combat, with the Scorp. Cruisers are inn general FAR too fragile for ths sort of environment - oh, the BB is marginally effective but the short range of the damps means a cruiser with those will be instakilled and the Arb isn't that tough, period. What this does to painters, well, might as well throw em away now.

What level is your cleric?

This combined with your other changes is a longwinded way of saying "remove ECM", as far as I can tell, rather than addressing the actual issues - and you're also trying to itnroduce the old, tired DikiMUD class-based mechanic into Eve, rather than actually focusing on how to balance the modules in question like ALL the other ones which have been looked at and balanced...it's lazy, it breaks VERY badly with the rest of Eve, it removes them from most battlefields ENTIRELY and it dosn't address the actual issues!


Rather than restricting fittings, reducing diversity and removing large numbers of modules from play, let's look at the actual issues (ECM stops you shooting ANYONE), and come up with appropriate answers (partial jamming), maintaining Eve's unique system of "fit anything, but better with certain things" rather than shoehorning Diku mechanics into the game.

welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2006.07.19 00:32:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Maya Rkell
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 19/07/2006 00:24:17
Originally by: Sarmaul
1) Remove multispecs.
2) Racials have 0 chance to jam on the wrong ship.


Then basically you've removed much of the effectiveness of ECM, except against corps like PIE. Certainly you can't afford to have ships with multiple modules of a type on if they might be useless. Further, it's NOT a solution in any way, shape or form for the REAL problem which is it srops you hitting ANYONE while jammed.


The real problem is people are flying armour tanking nos ships which deal ridiculous damage while jamming everything with multis.

So Sarmaul is in fact right.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.07.19 00:55:00 - [34]
 

Uh-huh. ONE ship fits that description. Domi.

Nerfing all EW in Eve into uselessness in most occasions is not the appropriate response. There are multiple factors there, quite apart from a better response to ECM, there are things which could be done to Nos to balance...or to drones, to armour tanking...

You're focusing VERY narrowly.

welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2006.07.19 01:07:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: welsh wizard on 19/07/2006 01:12:50
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Uh-huh. ONE ship fits that description. Domi.

Nerfing all EW in Eve into uselessness in most occasions is not the appropriate response. There are multiple factors there, quite apart from a better response to ECM, there are things which could be done to Nos to balance...or to drones, to armour tanking...

You're focusing VERY narrowly.


You know thats rubbish Maya, you're a clever person. Multispecs are too powerful because they're ridiculously effective on every ship in the game.

Make ECM 50% weaker across the board and give ECM platforms 10% oer level to ECM strength.

Bang! Problem solved.

"But everyone will fly Caldari you cretin!"

No, no they won't.

"But we'll feel hard done by because we're not Caldari and can't fly 'insert ECM platform of choice'!"

Be happy with your ludicrous comparitive damage output and remember the grass isn't always greener...

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.07.19 01:15:00 - [36]
 

Are they?

Well maybe, but it's NOT the jamming percentage which is the issue, it's the total jam. A partial jam system works a lot better, and a sligtly higher jam percentage suddenly makes a lot more difference.

Indeed, I'd also alter the racials to be no more than 20% better against that race, and 15% less effective against the other races, as well as slightly higher cap usage than the multis. (the low racial cap usage is VERY helpful for jamming frigs, you realise?)

I'd not alter the multispec percentages at all. But the odds are, in situations with multiple enemies, you WILL be able to shoot some of them. Maybe not the ones you most want, but that's how it goes. 1v1? You can fit ECCM!


Your soloution dosn't "solve" anything - it makes ECM useless on all but a few ships, and with high skills trained (BS5 is NOT common among younger players...indeed one has to assume skill 4, so it's an overall nerf), and what bonus are they going to give up for that ECM strenght...

welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2006.07.19 01:28:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Maya Rkell
Your soloution dosn't "solve" anything - it makes ECM useless on all but a few ships, and with high skills trained (BS5 is NOT common among younger players...indeed one has to assume skill 4, so it's an overall nerf), and what bonus are they going to give up for that ECM strenght...


If you want to use ECM you bring the right ships to the fight or your chances of jamming something are drastically reduced.

Want to dampen something? Then bring the right ships to the fight.

I fail to see the problem with this.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.07.19 01:34:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Maya Rkell on 19/07/2006 01:34:31

Because it's not consistant with anything else in Eve. If you want to do sometrhing "sub optimal" with other setups, you're welcome to - you can often get useful performance of them. You're proposing nerfing modules into uselessness and making them useful on a tiny subset of ships, reducing module diversity, removing non-ECM EW from viability in large combat, and so on. None of this has been addressed by yourself.

Moreover, you have NOT addressed the fundermental problem of the total jam, or that ECM's only viable counter is ECM.

welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2006.07.19 01:47:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: welsh wizard on 19/07/2006 01:51:55
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 19/07/2006 01:34:31

Because it's not consistant with anything else in Eve. If you want to do sometrhing "sub optimal" with other setups, you're welcome to - you can often get useful performance of them. You're proposing nerfing modules into uselessness and making them useful on a tiny subset of ships, reducing module diversity, removing non-ECM EW from viability in large combat, and so on. None of this has been addressed by yourself.

Moreover, you have NOT addressed the fundermental problem of the total jam, or that ECM's only viable counter is ECM.


So you bring those ships to a fight or you don't fight effectively! Same with the other races ships, they're better at different things. Utilise all of their advantages and you have the ultimate fighting machine. Don't, then suffer the consequences.

You want this module to be the standard on every ship when it absolutely should not be.

That is the problem. Everyone is using it on every ship because its so good and there is no reason not to. Take away that possibility and they won't....

Then the whining will cease.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.07.19 02:06:00 - [40]
 

"You want this module to be the standard on every ship when it absolutely should not be."

Rubbish. If the module is appropruately balanced, as I'm suggesting, then it becomes an OPTION. Bonuses on the specalist ships make it an better option for them.

If you don't alter the module and restrict what it runs on, then all you do is make those ships MANDATORY in any form of serious combat, since you MUST have ECM. Which is not the answer at all.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.07.19 08:06:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Clavius XIV
By that reasoning, weapons are classed as "Iwin" buttons since you need to fit them or fit against them.

....

I liken it more to you have to fit a tank, or someone with lots of gank will melt you with ease (or you could fit more gank... ). We have come to accept damage as being an integral part of combat, tackling as an integral part of combat... and we should realize that electronic warfare, in all its forms is an integral part of combat.


You missed the point. When I fit a tank it helps me against ALL weapons. Drones, missles, lasers, projectiles, rails, blasters, smartbombs. It's a general equipment.
ECCM isn't. It is of absolutely no use against tracking disruptors, sensor dampeners or *cough* target painters.

Again, claiming you "need" to fit against ECM is just like you having to have to fit specifically against drones, specifically against missles, ..., each time with a module which helps you nothing against other damagesources.

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2006.07.19 08:27:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Clavius XIV
By that reasoning, weapons are classed as "Iwin" buttons since you need to fit them or fit against them.

....

I liken it more to you have to fit a tank, or someone with lots of gank will melt you with ease (or you could fit more gank... ). We have come to accept damage as being an integral part of combat, tackling as an integral part of combat... and we should realize that electronic warfare, in all its forms is an integral part of combat.


You missed the point. When I fit a tank it helps me against ALL weapons. Drones, missles, lasers, projectiles, rails, blasters, smartbombs. It's a general equipment.
ECCM isn't. It is of absolutely no use against tracking disruptors, sensor dampeners or *cough* target painters.

Again, claiming you "need" to fit against ECM is just like you having to have to fit specifically against drones, specifically against missles, ..., each time with a module which helps you nothing against other damagesources.


Aramendel this is not a relevant argument, because we can twist and turn various situations to suit the opposing argument. And as such it is a pointless discussion. Like why to fit a tank if you can bring anough damage to kill any opponent first ? Or how do tracking enhancers help against ECM or webs or warp scramblers ? Or WCS against target painting ?

The problem with ECM is lack of skills/specialisation. I agree it is a very powerful feature to make your opponent helpless. However when this is coupled with no sacrifice or skill investment on your side, it becomes overpowered.

IMO everybody can pull triggers with low skills. Or tank or move around. However highly effective things such as ECM should require a great ammount of specialisation untill that effect is justified by the expenses needed to achieve it.

Take the industry side of the game as example. It is a very rewarding skill path, however it requires many sp to achieve good levels. Everybody can be average in mining with very few skills invested. However the best miners have tons of SP dedicated JUST to mining.

I'd like ECM to be just as that. A highly difficult yet at the end very rewarding specialisation. Take t2 turrets as example. They take aprox 6 months to train but when you arrive at the end, you are fielding the most damaging weapons of the respective class. And nobody will call you overpowered because they know what amount of time was spent to achieve the status.

SO I think the solution to the whole ECM problem is also that simple. To introduce a skill tree and modules system that takes like 3,4,5 months to train to justify the great effect. Of course you can be mediocre in it with 1 month of invested sp, however that won't mean much.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.07.19 08:54:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Aramendel this is not a relevant argument, because we can twist and turn various situations to suit the opposing argument. And as such it is a pointless discussion. Like why to fit a tank if you can bring anough damage to kill any opponent first ? Or how do tracking enhancers help against ECM or webs or warp scramblers ? Or WCS against target painting ?


I fail to see your point.

Quote:
I'd like ECM to be just as that. A highly difficult yet at the end very rewarding specialisation. Take t2 turrets as example. They take aprox 6 months to train but when you arrive at the end, you are fielding the most damaging weapons of the respective class. And nobody will call you overpowered because they know what amount of time was spent to achieve the status.


Wrong - that would just transfer the problem to a point in the future. A long training time does not make a too strong effect justifyable.
Also, t2 turrets (which take to the large version from the scratch a little bit over 2 months, btw) are not a huge boost on their own. T2 ammo is. And guess what many people call too strong?

Aequitas Veritas
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.07.19 09:42:00 - [44]
 

If you were to introduce a partial jam thingy, then ships like scorpion would need to be redefined as it has no place on the battlefield if it cant shut down other ships completely.

I for one would rather make ECM lots more skill intensive to use and lower its impact on non ECM ships rather than change its effect.

With regards to frigs jamming battleships etc. Someone posted something about letting the ships sensorstrength affect its ecm strength, if that were to be implemented then frigs ecm abilities would be lowered by lots except for the ecm dedicated frigs like griffin.

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2006.07.19 10:21:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Aramendel this is not a relevant argument, because we can twist and turn various situations to suit the opposing argument. And as such it is a pointless discussion. Like why to fit a tank if you can bring anough damage to kill any opponent first ? Or how do tracking enhancers help against ECM or webs or warp scramblers ? Or WCS against target painting ?


I fail to see your point.

Quote:
I'd like ECM to be just as that. A highly difficult yet at the end very rewarding specialisation. Take t2 turrets as example. They take aprox 6 months to train but when you arrive at the end, you are fielding the most damaging weapons of the respective class. And nobody will call you overpowered because they know what amount of time was spent to achieve the status.


Wrong - that would just transfer the problem to a point in the future. A long training time does not make a too strong effect justifyable.
Also, t2 turrets (which take to the large version from the scratch a little bit over 2 months, btw) are not a huge boost on their own. T2 ammo is. And guess what many people call too strong?


You fail to see the point because there is not point in your argument also.

And I am not wrong. Many ppl complain that their 10,20,30 million sp characters are helpless against 2 week old new chars with ECM. Well that will cure the problem.

Also given enough time everybody can train all the skills to their max levels. As much as that is only a theoretical scenario, there is a minimum of characters that happen to have more than 20m sp in the whole EVE population. And more, a good skill system can actualy limit the effectivnes of few modules being used also. You just fail to see how it can be modified. Or even consider the posibilities.

I did not mention t2 ammo anywhere. I said only that the weapons trained are the best ones. That holds true even if we remove t2 ammo from the game. Yes there are some faction weapons that are better, but they are out of the discussion as very rare and very very expensive.

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2006.07.19 10:23:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Aequitas Veritas
If you were to introduce a partial jam thingy, then ships like scorpion would need to be redefined as it has no place on the battlefield if it cant shut down other ships completely.

I for one would rather make ECM lots more skill intensive to use and lower its impact on non ECM ships rather than change its effect.

With regards to frigs jamming battleships etc. Someone posted something about letting the ships sensorstrength affect its ecm strength, if that were to be implemented then frigs ecm abilities would be lowered by lots except for the ecm dedicated frigs like griffin.


That was me :-) However it was argued that it makes the performance gap between frigs and larger craft even more wider and is not that good a solution. Like they already are much weaker than battleships and more susceptible to ECM without the slot options to fit defensive modules.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.07.19 10:26:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Maya Rkell
1v1? You can fit ECCM!



I dont see why people say you are intelligent when you post crap like this. Its obvious that equipping a multispectral of your own is much, much better than equipping a eccm module, because:

1) Even with eccm module, you have about 25% chance to still get jammed every 20 seconds.
2) If you pick a multispectral, you have the chance to jam the guy first, or when a cycle fails, giving you 30 seconds of not taking fire while firing at him. This gives you the chance to return the damage he may have caused to you if he jammed you first, and equal the odds. While the eccm would not help you at all with this.

So dont tell us to equip eccm because there is no situation when its superior to having a multispectral of your own when fighting 1 vs 1.

Wat0721
United Systems of the Allegiance
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2006.07.19 10:43:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Wat0721 on 19/07/2006 10:44:50
The reintroduction of Maya Rkell's partial jam idea into the thread suddenly gave me an idea:

What if successful jams removed a number of targets from the affected ship among that ship's selected targets with mods activated on them?

(kk, that was a little convoluted. Example time!)
For instance, let's say that Ship A is targeting Targets 1 through 4 and only using active mods against one of the targets, Target 2.

Ship B comes in and gets a successful jam cycle on Ship A -- Ship A loses lock on Target 2, but retains locks on Targets 1, 3, and 4 while losing the ability to lock any additional targets, including relocking Target 2. The cycle time until relock remains long as it is now, meaning that Ship A is forced to either activate mods against other targets (who may or may not be friendly) or to wait out the relock time while completely disabled.

On the other hand, if Ship A had spread its modules amongst the other targets -- a friendly armor rep here, a sensor damp or two here, a painter there, some guns here -- then a number of targets determined by the level of the "advanced" ECM skill (Sensor Dispersion) would be removed; at Level 1 of the skill one target is jammed; at Level 2, two; etc. This is a skill requiring Electronics 5 and Electronic Warfare 4 -- common and otherwise-useful enough skills, but it also means that to use ECM successfully, you actually need to train for it (more on this way below -- I also think the ECM mods need a very slight change).

Here's where it solves more problems than just ECMs.

One big problem it solves is the issue with focused fire and combat being too short, solved because it becomes beneficial to not focus fire if the only locks that will break from ECM are the ones you use all of your mods on.

At the same time here, it also [at least slightly] boosts the role of logistics and cooperation in gangs -- because any active mods count, the single lock on the ship you happen to be armor repping gets dropped, but your guns keep firing long enough to get the final blow on that Iteron 5 YARRRR!! (<--GTU doesn't pirate </disclaimer>.)

It also makes Targeting skills more useful, because the ECM still disables further locking -- so, if you have more targets to choose from that you can afford to fire on, fire away! It leaves ECM as a defense against focused fire -- and I believe Electronic Counter Measures ought to be just that, defensive; if the enemies are using just a few ships that are fitted to gank without any gang support, punish them with the ECM and get that ship out to a nearby place of repairs.

Here's another one, it also encourages team play and fitting out ships to do more than just gank, because gank ships are hit hardest by ECM, instead of just every ship.

And what about an ECM counter? Well, here I like Sarmaul's idea for allowing x number of ships to be relocked -- but I also think that the existing modules need to differ from one another. Maybe leave the med slot ECCM with a huge increase in sensor strength that can prevent the jam from happening at all but change the low slot mod to allow for a small number of relockable targets (1 at T1, 2 at T2 with enormous CPU requirements)? Or vice-versa?

Support ships and ships with fast lock times might then fit the low version because they can afford to relock targets after the cycle or can simply move on to another target, but ships with long lock times might fit the medium version so as to try and avoid losing their lock at all.

About the "fitting a mod that's only useful against x ships"...tracking disruptor v. missile.

I don't, however, think that racial ECM should have 0 strength in the other departments or that multispecs should be removed, or that the chance to jam should be lowered.

In fact, with this idea, I think that ECM's strength should be significantly boosted, because it otherwise becomes a weak EWAR!

Max. char limit.

welsh wizard
0utbreak
KrautbreaK
Posted - 2006.07.19 10:46:00 - [49]
 

I've worked it out!

We all want different things and we all think we're right!

Wink

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.07.19 11:20:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Aequitas Veritas
If you were to introduce a partial jam thingy, then ships like scorpion would need to be redefined...


Why? If ECM is overpowered right now, and ECM is fixed to be balanced, then surely those ships are now balanced? Oh, they might need slight tweaking (better shields or whatever), but that's entirely dealable with compared to overpowered ECM.

Leaving ECM overpowered and limiting the ships it is on makes the SHIPS mandatory. This...isn't an improvement.

Also, sensor strenght is entirely defensive. Scan resoloution is the offensive counterpart. Using sensor strenght would be a BAD idea, considering the way some ships have insane sensor strenghts and others can bump it up using other modules. (i.e. scorps with ECCM low would suddenly become both far more effective jammers, and far harder to jam back, making the ECM problem far worse).


Jim McGregor, IN A PARTIAL JAM SYSTEM! I was refering to a particular case based on certain assumptions related to changes I wanted to make. Plus don't assume all ships have the spare CPU for ECM, or the midslots. Moreover, my partial jam system has shorter cycles and so on. Right now, you're right. I want to change "right now", however.

Wat0721, interesting. I'll analyse later but it looks like it has potential.


welsh wizard, yea, this IS a forum. I do disagree that making jam ships rather than jam modules mandatory helps though,

TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2006.07.19 11:32:00 - [51]
 

I think we should stop whining...

Lets see:

Nerf Raven
Nerf Missiles
Nerf Domi
Nerf Vagabond
Nerf EW
Nerf Stabs
Nerf Fighters
Nerf NOS

Anything u guys dont wanna nerf??


Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2006.07.19 11:32:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: TZeer
I think we should stop whining...

Lets see:

Nerf Raven
Nerf Missiles
Nerf Domi
Nerf Vagabond
Nerf EW
Nerf Stabs
Nerf Fighters
Nerf NOS

Anything u guys dont wanna nerf??




Nerf logging.
Nerf bubbles.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.07.19 11:37:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Maya Rkell

Jim McGregor, IN A PARTIAL JAM SYSTEM! I was refering to a particular case based on certain assumptions related to changes I wanted to make. Plus don't assume all ships have the spare CPU for ECM, or the midslots. Moreover, my partial jam system has shorter cycles and so on. Right now, you're right. I want to change "right now", however.



Cool, we agree. Smile

Alt99
Posted - 2006.07.19 11:38:00 - [54]
 

Whatever happened to running backup arreys to boost your sensor strength to prevent jamming?

It takes far fewer modules to counter all forms of EW than it takes to apply all forms of EW.

A tracking computer can negate the effects of both tracking disruption and sensor damping to an acceptable degree. A single backup arrey on a battleship can render an opponent using 3-4 multispecs totally inneffective.

Devoting 4 modules to anti-EW can render you immune to balanced EW ships that dont take counters into consideration.

Its pretty lame this arguement IMO. The counters exist, and work, and actually give you a distinct advantage in terms of undevoted slots, if you bring a counter to a EW fight.

So it looks like, imo, the arguement is simply coming from people who dont like to fly without packing their ship to the hilt with shield/armor tank.

You are getting owned by people with more of a clue than you, and you refuse to adapt.

You deserve to die, and will continue to do so.

Use the games mechanics and modules to give YOURSELF the advantage over your foe. Dont just sit there thinking of yourself 'the hardest ship in the universe' because you are running a tank.

Infact, wake up. Figuring out what your opponent is using, and getting away from him, allows you to adapt to his setup, and beat him at his own game.

Welcome to EVE.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.07.19 11:39:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: TZeer
I think we should stop whining...

Lets see:

Nerf Raven
Nerf Missiles
Nerf Domi
Nerf Vagabond
Nerf EW
Nerf Stabs
Nerf Fighters
Nerf NOS

Anything u guys dont wanna nerf??




You missed 3:

Nerf Tech 2 heavy drones
Nerf 160 km+ range
Nerf blobbing

ugh


TZeer
BURN EDEN
Posted - 2006.07.19 12:14:00 - [56]
 

LOL

Laughing

But yeah, I must agree to the modules countering EW.

It was given a good boost in last patch. Havent tried it yet.

But I can imagine it would be hard as hell to jam a person with 2/3 sensor backup arrays in the lows if u bring 2/3 multispecs.

I am a heavy EW user myself, and yeah, its very fun to jam people, but it`s a pain in the ass when u have a ship specialized for jamming, T2 jammers and none of the jammers get a jam.... You are pretty much ****ed.

So people running around in damagemod/WCS packed ships and getting jammed should get a clue.

The ships that are easiest to jam are minmatar and amarr, but they are also the ship who are often closerange with damagemods and stuff filled to the brink in the lows.
If u as a pilot are not willing/able to fit a sensor backup array or 2 to counter the EW... Thats your fault.

Adapt or die.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.07.19 12:23:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 19/07/2006 12:24:21
Originally by: TZeer

But I can imagine it would be hard as hell to jam a person with 2/3 sensor backup arrays in the lows if u bring 2/3 multispecs.



With 2 backup modules in the lows, you still have about 20-25% chance to get target jammed every 20 seconds. You sacrifice tank and/or damage and the chance to get jammed is still very high if the fight lasts a minute or so.

You can also use the med slot version, which is twice as strong. So you have 20-25% chance to get jammed every 20 seconds anyway. If you put a multispectral there instead, you have the chance to jam the opponent when one of his cycles fail.

This means you get 30 seconds of time to return the damage you took when you were first jammed. Compare this with using a counter module. He will still be shooting at you if his jam fails, and you will gain nothing.

Therefore I think using target jamming yourself is the best defence currently.

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.07.19 13:05:00 - [58]
 

Part of the problem is the rediculous effectiveness of jammers vs td's and dampers, and the fact that they stack infinitely.

Dampers - 2 to 3 required to completely shut down a ship. Thats a a lot of mids. Only 3 stack (if you are lucky).

Tracking Disruptors - reduces turret effectiveness but leaves drones/missles/nos usable. Only takes 1.

Those seem pretty balanced.

Jammers - Completely shuts down all offense on a ship for 20 seconds, then makes them relock. Where 1 is good, 100 are better because the chance of jamming goes up the more you use. What good are ECCM mods when 5+ multis have a good chance of jamming you even if you have 2 of the best named midslot versions?

Jammers either need to do partial jams, of just break a lock on non-ewar ships similar to a targeted ECM Burst mod. Still usefull, but not uber. Scorps/rooks/BB's can get a shorter jam with the same cycletime that they have now.

1 mod on a non-specialist ship should not completely shut down your offence. Look at TD's and Dampers for good examples of how it should be done. Sacrifice multiple midslots to shut 1 ship down, or 1 midslot hampers but does not eliminate 1 ship.

Nyxus

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.07.19 13:34:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Hugh Ruka
You fail to see the point because there is not point in your argument also.


Great argumentation..not. You might want to lookup the differences between nonspecialized counters and specialized counters.

Tank or weapons are nonspecialized counters. You do not need a specialized defence to counter drones, one against missles, one against lasers, etc.

Vs ECM you can only use a specialized counter. ECM yourself or ECCM and hope it will be effective. It won't help you at all vs other EWar items.

If you think a nonspecialized counter is the same as a specialized counter you need a reality check or stop the denial.

Quote:
And I am not wrong. Many ppl complain that their 10,20,30 million sp characters are helpless against 2 week old new chars with ECM. Well that will cure the problem.


Exept that is not the problem. The problem is that independant from the SP ECM is too strong. Assume things are changed like you suggested. So if you max your skills you will have the same effeciency like today. Then we get as result:
10,20,30 million sp characters are helpless against 10,20,30 million sp characters with ECM.

Again, such a change would change zero, zip, zilch about the current situation. Doesn't matter if you have to invest 10k or 10 million SPs in it, it would stay an I-win button.

Quote:
I did not mention t2 ammo anywhere. I said only that the weapons trained are the best ones. That holds true even if we remove t2 ammo from the game. Yes there are some faction weapons that are better, but they are out of the discussion as very rare and very very expensive.


I completely agree here.

Problem is that this also makes it an ineffective example for your "need lots of SP to make ECM effective" idea. Without t2 ammo a t2 gun is at best 10% better than the best (non-faction) named.

Clavius XIV
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.07.19 16:37:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Wat0721

The reintroduction of Maya Rkell's partial jam idea into the thread suddenly gave me an idea:

What if successful jams removed a number of targets from the affected ship among that ship's selected targets with mods activated on them?



I'm not a big fan of Maya's version but this variation sounds like great idea! Need to bring this to the devs attention.


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