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Grayton
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.07.17 09:53:00 - [181]
 

Edited by: Grayton on 17/07/2006 09:54:32
I mean the utmost respect to every alliance I mention in the following. None of this is meant in detriment, it is merely an analogy (which I know us goons love so much).

Eve is sort of just like one big giant high school. You've got the star football team (BoB) that like to go around doing pretty much whatever they want, you've got the super rich kids (ASCN) that like to drive their BMW's (Outposts) to school every day, you've got those hooligans that drive around each night hitting mailboxes with baseball bats and tp'ing houses (Burn Eden) that you can just never seem to catch, there's the foreign students who you're never quite sure what they're saying in that crazy language you can't understand (D2) but you know they've got something going on over at that lunch table they sit at, you've got all the clueless freshman just trying to survive their first year (Empire newbies) and some freshmen-no-longer that like to stick to what's safe (pure Empire residents), those weird European guys that always talk with their crazy accents that you can't always understand but they seem pretty cool so you always give them a "sup?" when you see them (E.R.A.), those crazy Russians (Red Alliance), the loner group of guys that will "take care of things" for a price (KIA) and the guys who will do the same but also seem to hang out with the football team quite a bit (MC), a whole slew of others I'm probably missing, and then you've got us Goons.

Now us Goons are like the mentally challenged class. We all stick together but because of what we are, we know that we will probably never get along with most of the rest of the school. We may make some pretty good friends like the Europeans and a bunch of smaller groups that hang out with us all the time and we're not really sure why but man do we love them for being our friends (TFC, VIDEO, SMASH, LIDY, MAGEL, DPG, and anyone else I'm forgetting!), but overall we don't really get along with most everyone else, just because of who we are. The thing is, though, that not all of us are on the same level. Those of us that have less crippling handicaps (Remedial and Hoegaarden for example) have risen up to try and help the rest of us grow and prosper in our own little mentally challenged way. They show us the sports fields and the playgrounds and all of the four square pads and make sure we get to play against the other kids. We may not win all the time, we may not lose all the time, but at least we get to play. The thing is, these guys can't always understand one another very clearly just due to their mental nature, and sometimes there's yelling and screaming until one of these guys transfers schools cause he can't take it anymore.

Due to who we are, it's very rare that people understand us, however. Often times what we say and do is misinterpreted- we meant to say one thing but it comes out the wrong way due to birth defects. Now, sometimes, this gets us into trouble, and we have to get ourselves out of it. Good thing we have an advantage, as the other groups think beating up a few mentally handicapped kids is pretty easy. They just don't expect the fact that we're so tight knit that we all come yelling and screaming at them. Sure, we may trip and fall and hurt ourselves. Sure, a lot of us will get beaten up since we can't match the physicality of our attackers. But we all go for it and we go for it as hard as we can to defend our brothers. So it doesn't really matter if no one else understands us. We understand each other and we'll come to each other's aid, no matter what the cost.






Or, to rephrase that entire thing, all it comes down to, is that GoonSwarm walks like this, while the rest of Eve walks like this...

Shimpu
Caldari
Sensory Overload
Posted - 2006.07.17 10:01:00 - [182]
 

Edited by: Shimpu on 17/07/2006 10:01:56
Originally by: Anita Haircut
Originally by: The Mittani
Imagine, if you will, a school bus full of special needs children doped to the gills on crystal meth. Now imagine that you've given them all sharp objects and a few handguns, and convinced them all that what they REALLY WANT is to die for Dear Leader and take someone with them in the process.

Then you take that bus, dump nitrous into the gas tank, supercharge the engine, lock the accelerator at full throttle and point that bus in the general direction of your enemies, and just before you leap out of it you put the most hyperactive of the meth-addicted tard kids behind the wheel and tell him to have fun and that he's an excellent driver.

That's what it's like being a Goonswarm director. It's not pretty, but the fireworks are spectacular. ^_^


This made me laugh SO HARD I spit beer out of my nose!!!!!!

I love GOON. You guys are awesome in my book. Those arrogant D2 "we have more SP than you and have been in alliances forever so listen to us or die" types need to be put into their place. Their time has come and gone. Time for GOON to wipe them out.





I dislike Goon. But I hate you bandwaggoners. All this power to the people illusions. Rolling Eyes
Goons tactic is to throw meat at their hostiles. It's not about tactics but just about what every player who isn't clueless tries to avoid: the 'blob'. The normal Goon player is totally insignificant. Even directors get threated like dirt from Remedial. I don't know about you but I can imagine better things in a game than virtual facism.

Then we have a couple of dedicated players (aka directors) which organize the logistics part and other important things. In XZH they did a damn impressive job. But guess what: They bring that stuff with carriers and share their accounts to do it 24/7. So no low SP revolution here. I had some sympathy for goons and also expressed it on the forum. But after the XZH incident (yes, we will win! Twisted Evil) and the leaked "spank-a-director" thread, the impressions I got are enough to say: "End yourself Goonswarm!".

Joerd Toastius
Amarr
Octavian Vanguard
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.07.17 10:08:00 - [183]
 

Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 17/07/2006 10:10:42
Originally by: Degaal Valen
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Are you really, honestly surprised at all the negative reactions that you've got in light of this?


Who said we're surprised?


If you were expecting it, why the complaints?

Originally by: Jon Ominor
I don't know how you define "running it badly" but...well, I can't see how things are going badly at all. A dictatorship actually works great in this game. There are way, way too many difference between a real-life dictatorship and the ones in EVE to even begin comparing, but here's a key difference and a key similarity. The difference is that if you don't like the dictatorship in the game, you can just say "whatever" and go elsewhere, and no one's going to point a gun at your head demanding you stay. The similarity is that the dictator himself is usually an absurdly driven, selfish person (be it power, glory, money, etc).


I'm not objecting to intelligent dictatorship. However, if those logs are accurate, then he's trying to run a 2000+ player alliance while displaying a total lack of respect for and trust in his command staff. This, I think, is a spectacularly bad idea.

Up until a couple of months ago, the Goons were the Barbarians - sallying forth from secure strongholds, raping and pillaging, and then pulling back to regroup. Remedial's command style sounds pretty much perfect for this - generally all you need is enough ships and good fleet command skills and everyone's happy. However, now they're trying to play the Romans game - sallying out, laying waste to the target area and then trying to control it - and that's a whole different ballgame.

Which is why I personally am so disturbed by those forum logs. Ok, so Remedial fell out with a director. It happens, and if it was someone minor like a diplomat or a general or someone, big deal. However, from what I'm reading, he's fallen out with his logistics chief, who's now left the alliance. I sincerely hope he's got a fully-trained and fully-briefed replacement waiting in the wings, because if he hasn't he's probably about to lose the war he's currently fighting. As I said, welcome to Alliance Warfare 2.0.

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.07.17 10:09:00 - [184]
 

I'm really torn on this.

On the one side, the goons are a bunch of tasteless bastards, and Remedial is a crazy, childish autocrat.

However, on the other side, you guys are great for eve, seem to have a lot of fun, Remedial seems to be a damn good commander and alliance head, sometimes have an inspired sense of humour and Remedial seems to have the most loyalty of any commander I have ever seen in Eve. Plus, you do bring us the finest in drama Laughing

Floppy Disk
Minmatar
The First Foundation
SOLAR FLEET
Posted - 2006.07.17 10:14:00 - [185]
 

Edited by: Floppy Disk on 17/07/2006 10:15:07
Originally by: Shimpu
I dislike Goon. But I hate you bandwaggoners. All this power to the people illusions. Rolling Eyes
Goons tactic is to throw meat at their hostiles. It's not about tactics but just about what every player who isn't clueless tries to avoid: the 'blob'. The normal Goon player is totally insignificant. Even directors get threated like dirt from Remedial. I don't know about you but I can imagine better things in a game than virtual facism.
We were outnumbered in our major engagements with you 3:2. Also, we have incredibly talented FCs, some of whom taught by the best, a certain drunk Australian. If goons were insigificant, we would lose every time we're outnumbered and we aren't.
Originally by: HippoKing
Plus, you do bring us the finest in drama Laughing
We're thinking of getting our own show on TNT.

Vile rat
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.07.17 10:18:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: Floppy Disk
We were outnumbered in our major engagements with you 3:2. Also, we have incredibly talented FCs, some of whom taught by the best, a certain drunk Australian. If goons were insigificant, we would lose every time we're outnumbered and we aren't.




Australian? oh god now you've done it.

Cmd Woodlouse
Minmatar
moon7empler
Ev0ke
Posted - 2006.07.17 10:21:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: Floppy Disk
Edited by: Floppy Disk on 17/07/2006 10:15:07
Originally by: Shimpu
I dislike Goon. But I hate you bandwaggoners. All this power to the people illusions. Rolling Eyes
Goons tactic is to throw meat at their hostiles. It's not about tactics but just about what every player who isn't clueless tries to avoid: the 'blob'. The normal Goon player is totally insignificant. Even directors get threated like dirt from Remedial. I don't know about you but I can imagine better things in a game than virtual facism.
We were outnumbered in our major engagements with you 3:2. Also, we have incredibly talented FCs, some of whom taught by the best, a certain drunk Australian. If goons were insigificant, we would lose every time we're outnumbered and we aren't.
Originally by: HippoKing
Plus, you do bring us the finest in drama Laughing
We're thinking of getting our own show on TNT.


the problem is that you talk bullcrap, i dunno where you take ur numbers but its either an outright lie or utter stupidity.

dont only take ur kb into account, cause its what it is, a pure killboard, most of the losses are missing.

Grayton
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.07.17 10:22:00 - [188]
 

Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: Floppy Disk
We were outnumbered in our major engagements with you 3:2. Also, we have incredibly talented FCs, some of whom taught by the best, a certain drunk Australian. If goons were insigificant, we would lose every time we're outnumbered and we aren't.




Australian? oh god now you've done it.


seriously how can you confuse nationalities like that Floppy I don't know how you could think that was Australian the only Australian I even know of is Kiwillian anyway

Stab Wound
Caldari
True Salvation
Posted - 2006.07.17 10:32:00 - [189]
 

Quote:

Goodluck getting any allies from now on that arnt desperate or users themselves.



Hate to break it to you, but all alliances do this. Most just don't admit it because political correctness wins. In my humble opinion, this game was made for Macchiavellian politics.

People seem to (want to?) read too much into this drama. Personally I think openness and saying what you actually think is good, even if it causes some drama (as long as it's a valid concern and not just to provoke/troll). Besides, I think the SA people are used to more drama than most internet communities.

On the other hand I feel sorry for the GF directors who feel like their efforts are wasted, but I want to wish good luck to goonfleet anyway. It's nice to have a new "big player" in this game and I personally much prefer more strong and self-sufficient alliances popping up, than just another weak alliance/corp who go into 0.0 to become a stronger alliance's mining biatches.

Jon Ominor
Caldari
Magellanic Itg
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.07.17 10:34:00 - [190]
 

Originally by: Joerd Toastius
I sincerely hope he's got a fully-trained and fully-briefed replacement waiting in the wings, because if he hasn't he's probably about to lose the war he's currently fighting. As I said, welcome to Alliance Warfare 2.0.


There's more than one person doing any one thing, yes. In fact I couldn't even tell you who exactly the "logistics chief" is or was, assuming there even was one. Roles seem to be filled as they're needed.

I dunno, maybe other alliances have like Local POS Fuelers 418 and only that union is allowed to put strontium into the POSes in their assigned region because if someone else does it they go on strike or something.

Joerd Toastius
Amarr
Octavian Vanguard
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.07.17 10:49:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Jon Ominor
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
I sincerely hope he's got a fully-trained and fully-briefed replacement waiting in the wings, because if he hasn't he's probably about to lose the war he's currently fighting. As I said, welcome to Alliance Warfare 2.0.


There's more than one person doing any one thing, yes. In fact I couldn't even tell you who exactly the "logistics chief" is or was, assuming there even was one. Roles seem to be filled as they're needed.

I dunno, maybe other alliances have like Local POS Fuelers 418 and only that union is allowed to put strontium into the POSes in their assigned region because if someone else does it they go on strike or something.


Meh. Sounds to me like a good way to lose a POS war, judging by what I've seen so far.

Temari Kurita
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.07.17 10:51:00 - [192]
 

I have only been playing this game for a month.

I enjoy losing my frigate in a suicide rush towards a T2 sniping battleship, and all I think about when I am killed is how quickly can I get into a spare ship and get back to the fight.
I enjoy fighting for conqueorable space, because this is the first game where winning the fight actually means something.
I really don't care too much about the politics of the game, becuase I am here to have fun.... That's why they call it a game.

I am a member of Goonswarm.


To Cmdr Woodlouse (and the rest of the D2 folks, incl. IRON, YW, RZR, etc): I look forward to fighting you in space. Sure you may kill me more often than I get you, but I'll always be back for another shot because somehow, someway, someday I will kill you too.

And then salute you as a gallant and worthy foe.

Floppy Disk
Minmatar
The First Foundation
SOLAR FLEET
Posted - 2006.07.17 10:59:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: Vile rat

Australian? oh god now you've done it.
I lack Geographic skills.

Calenth
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.07.17 11:38:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: Ismern
Most of our losses are missing? Haha! Laughing


There's a reason we've never posted a link to our killboards in the official killboard thread. Since so many of our players are new, we have a hard time getting everyone to always post every killmail and lossmail. So we've never claimed that our killboard is completely authoritative, although we do attempt to make it so.

Won Ton
Gallente
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.07.17 11:40:00 - [195]
 

Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse
the problem is that you talk bullcrap, i dunno where you take ur numbers but its either an outright lie or utter stupidity.

dont only take ur kb into account, cause its what it is, a pure killboard, most of the losses are missing.


You were never there. You were in the hospital with a collapsed lung, by your own account. How would you know either way what happened? Of course everybody knows that D2 is an alliance based on integrity, it's not like you guys would ever lie to further your own purposes! Maybe you should save the arguing for people who have a clue, Commander. Like, the people who were present for the battles. It's also a bit old to keep mentioning our killboard. Yes, everyone knows that GoonSwarm loses metric ****loads of ships, big deal. It's not about the process, it's about the result.

Piter Blake
Caldari
Rex Gloriae
Posted - 2006.07.17 11:40:00 - [196]
 

There is more drama in this thread than in the whole Eastenders series.

Microsoft Sam
Caldari
Pilots Of Honour
Aeternus.
Posted - 2006.07.17 11:51:00 - [197]
 


Izko Serca
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.07.17 11:51:00 - [198]
 

Edited by: Izko Serca on 17/07/2006 11:54:41
Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse

the problem is that you talk bullcrap, i dunno where you take ur numbers but its either an outright lie or utter stupidity.

dont only take ur kb into account, cause its what it is, a pure killboard, most of the losses are missing.

First of all, I would suggest re-reading what my fellow alliance member wrote. He was talking about gang size--not kills.

There is no bullcrap here. Any screenshots or videos of the 3 different days where D2 sieged our POSes, at the infamous loss of 9 dreads total, display a simple fact: D2 constantly outnumbered us on each and every engagement, only to leave after twice unsuccessfuly sieging a POS and once putting a non-critical POS into reinforced. Moreover, two of the (three) main D2 engagements occured during waning European primetime, many hours before US primetime.

GoonSwarm has always shown up to defend XZH, incindentally the sole obligation of a defender during war, when D2 has done what an aggressor's job and attacked. It is not our job--nor is it even common decency--for a defender to attack on terms beneficial for the attacker. You will find no evidence of such "tactics" anywhere in modern warfare, nor will you find such occurrences in the EVE universe. Such logic would make any military tactician roll their eyes so frantically their faces would resemble slot-machines.

Furthermore, GoonSwarm in no way intentionally hides numbers. While our own killboard may lack losses, its ratio of kill:loss representation is still much greater than D2's or YouWhat's. We do not hide behind our killboard. There is something grand in the idea of a relentless pursuit of our goals--and that is what our losses represent. No matter the odds or casualties, GoonSwarm will continue to fight for the things we want.

A few weeks ago we stumbled into a region that had fallen into disarray, that region was Cloud Ring. Once this was made public the boards were filled with comments by D2 and SteelViper pilots alike to the tune of "GoonSwarm will be gone within the week". We seized an opportunity, and we have defended XZH against everything you have thrown at us thus far: double-digit dreads, relentless sniping, and POS spamming (which we did not initiate, something that the EVEmails concerning what alliance erected what POS and when fully support).

What matters isn't who has the most killboard losses, or who lost the most dreads, or who lost the most POSes, or who stays up the latest at night. What matters is who is left in the system once the space-dust has settled. It may not be GoonSwarm in the end, but I know I'll be spending my time once downtime is over flying my frigate head-on into anyone that suggests otherwise.

I've had some good fights (although you were only in the first one), and plan on many more. Let's leave the killboard/lag/exploit/drama/whatever whining out of this and have some fun PEW PEWing each other instead.

EDIT:
By the way, this is my main. I'm a newbie and apparently my account is one of the many bugged accounts whose portraits don't show, etc.

Melchom
Caldari
PPN United
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.07.17 11:54:00 - [199]
 

Edited by: Melchom on 17/07/2006 11:56:52
Originally by: Izko Serca


What matters isn't who has the most killboard losses, or who lost the most dreads, or who lost the most POSes, or who stays up the latest at night. What matters is who is left in the system once the space-dust has settled. null It may not be GoonSwarm in the end, but I know I'll be spending my time once downtime is over flying my frigate head-on into anyone that suggests otherwise.



ahhh now comes the knowledge ^^

Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Gallente
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.07.17 11:57:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: Izko Serca

What matters isn't who has the most killboard losses, or who lost the most dreads, or who lost the most POSes, or who stays up the latest at night. What matters is who is left in the system once the space-dust has settled.



exactly Very Happy ... but it isn't over yet Twisted Evil

Izko Serca
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.07.17 12:04:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte


exactly Very Happy ... but it isn't over yet Twisted Evil


I thought that people on this forum had a knack for repeating things previously stated... now I'm sure of it.
Of course it isn't over yet, would you have preferred if my post smacked of elitism and arrogance? There is little point to speak in such a manner when it is the actions of one and of the people who fly next them that make the difference.

We were told that GoonSwarm in XZH had an expiration date of a few days--well over 2 weeks ago. We are here to party and have had the greatest fun in the history of our alliance (new as it may be).

Downtime is over, and seeing as I am a Euro too, I am going to hop into my frigates and cruisers and do some shooting, I expect to see you there.

Jacinto Naysmith
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.07.17 12:06:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse
the problem is that you talk bullcrap, i dunno where you take ur numbers but its either an outright lie or utter stupidity.


I've avoided posting in here, but I assume you're referring to the statement of us being outnumbered 3:2 in most of the major engagements? I've been at every battle in which we've killed dreadnoughts defending our POS's, and from what I recall the number in our gang has been significantly lower then half of the number in local. I also don't remember seeing you in local in any of those battles, so I'd question whoever told you that we outnumbered you.

Fighting on these forums is rather dumb and accomplishes nothing, I'll keep the fighting to in game whenever possible. Thankfully the actions of the pilots in game speak louder then the words of the forum warriors. Unlike a lot of posters on this forum, I've seen very little smack and complaining from the pilots (on all sides) battling these pasts weeks.

The ruthless never ending fighting in XZH has been some of the best fleet combat I've seen in EVE despite the nearly unplayable lag at some points. Its a shame we haven't seen combat like that recently, hopefully we'll see more in the future.

Nez Perces
Amarr
Metatron Inc.
Posted - 2006.07.17 12:06:00 - [203]
 

well there is a hell of a lot of goon pilots writing into this thread.... I think its great...what I really like is that the majority of them are actually coherent posts, often fairly amusing.. by the most part they seem an educated bunch, contrary to my original pre-conception of them being a swarm of mindless noobs.

Remedial may be an autocrat and have no manners.. but at he seems to have the loyalty of his enormous corp .. kudos to him. I love to see a new entity in EVE that believes so steadfastly in pvp and willingness to take orders, my kind of thinking tbh...

Looks like goonfleet are here to stay, we might as well get used to them Smile



Floppy Disk
Minmatar
The First Foundation
SOLAR FLEET
Posted - 2006.07.17 12:09:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: Nez Perces
well there is a hell of a lot of goon pilots writing into this thread.... I think its great...what I really like is that the majority of them are actually coherent posts, often fairly amusing.. by the most part they seem an educated bunch, contrary to my original pre-conception of them being a swarm of mindless noobs.
Terrible posters don't last long on somethingawful. Unless it's FYAD or you are Bigpeeler.

Wattish
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.07.17 12:13:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: Floppy Disk
Terrible posters don't last long on somethingawful. Unless it's FYAD or you are Bigpeeler.


He got banned its just FYAD now.

Zosh
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.07.17 12:16:00 - [206]
 

Edited by: Zosh on 17/07/2006 12:16:39
Originally by: Nez Perces
well there is a hell of a lot of goon pilots writing into this thread.... I think its great...what I really like is that the majority of them are actually coherent posts, often fairly amusing.. by the most part they seem an educated bunch, contrary to my original pre-conception of them being a swarm of mindless noobs.

Remedial may be an autocrat and have no manners.. but at he seems to have the loyalty of his enormous corp .. kudos to him. I love to see a new entity in EVE that believes so steadfastly in pvp and willingness to take orders, my kind of thinking tbh...

Looks like goonfleet are here to stay, we might as well get used to them Smile


Note that unlike every other alliance in the game, we didn't join goonfleet to play EVE, we joined EVE to play in goonfleet. So yeah, there are a lot of newbies all the time, I myself joined goonfleet 2 hours after I created my character 6 months ago. The game's just fun with goons, regardless of who's leading or what our objectives are. It's not really loyalty to Remedial, for myself anyways. He's a good leader and all but we're fighting for ourselves, for the alliance - for the existence and growth of goonfleet.

Also, you can read the propaganda from d2, or you can look at the results. We're still in XZH after they said they'd remove us weeks ago.





Vile rat
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.07.17 12:23:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: KIATolon
Edited by: KIATolon on 17/07/2006 12:20:55
Originally by: Lunas Feelgood
...stuff

And one goonswarm corp did about 30 bils worth of damage to d2 for about 200mils worth of losses (one of the small corps on every dread killmail)

Does that make then 12548.42% better than E-R at everything, including especially (but not exclusively) fooling about with stats to make themselves look good?

If you call losing the system AND 11 dreads a win, then I wish you many more wins in the future.


Spoken like a true Australian.

KIATolon
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.07.17 12:26:00 - [208]
 

Bonza

The Mittani
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.07.17 12:27:00 - [209]
 

Regarding the recent D2 smack posts, the perception seems to be like this:

Established alliances pvp in fleet battles, GoonSwarm blobs.

Established alliances contest soverignty of a system, GoonSwarm POS spams.

Established alliances soberly consider political realities, GoonSwarm is Machiavellian.

Established alliances use pvp skill and tactics, Goonswarm uses lag and exploits.

How long until this ridiculous doubletalk reaches the level of,

'Established Alliances find things, GoonSwarm loots things.'

Anyway, thank god that D2 is the only one of these 'established alliances' that seems to really believe this. It is heartening to see that some BoB posters are willing to give us the benefit of the doubt.

KIATolon
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.07.17 12:31:00 - [210]
 

Because there isn't really any doubt Mittani.

Everyone knows what's going on here, and people like Lunas insisting they've not lost a fleet battle EVER just reinforces that fact.


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