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Kesslar Znel
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.07.17 07:26:00 - [151]
 

Edited by: Kesslar Znel on 17/07/2006 19:27:43
I intended this post as a way of saying, "Hey guys, no one meant any harm, we just have poor taste." That's not how it was taken, so I'm editing it out.

MacDuncan
Minmatar
Evoke.
Ev0ke
Posted - 2006.07.17 07:55:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Kesslar Znel
Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte

you remembe remedials "joke" about a player who died??




The worst thing about Remedial's joke about smoksie was that it wasn't as funny as it should have been.

Seriously, goons love to make fun of dead people. If Remedial died it would be 10 minutes before we'd be photoshopping his autopsy photos. If dead people want us to stop making fun of them they should stop dying.

Again...you're showing the lack of any sense at all...which seems to belonging to the majority within GS...

geewiz
Caldari
Intergalactic Logistics
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:02:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Kesslar Znel
Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte

you remembe remedials "joke" about a player who died??




The worst thing about Remedial's joke about smoksie was that it wasn't as funny as it should have been.

Seriously, goons love to make fun of dead people. If Remedial died it would be 10 minutes before we'd be photoshopping his autopsy photos. If dead people want us to stop making fun of them they should stop dying.


Classy ....real classy Rolling Eyes

Body Count
Minmatar
Necrosys Syndicate
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:03:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Kesslar Znel
Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte

you remembe remedials "joke" about a player who died??




The worst thing about Remedial's joke about smoksie was that it wasn't as funny as it should have been.

Seriously, goons love to make fun of dead people. If Remedial died it would be 10 minutes before we'd be photoshopping his autopsy photos. If dead people want us to stop making fun of them they should stop dying.
This boys and girls is called a mistake. Making fun of dead players who ran the first eve killboard and was so respected that his mates named a station in his honour is a bad move.

Darcuese
Amarr
Destructive Influence
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:13:00 - [155]
 

Edited by: Darcuese on 17/07/2006 08:13:57
Didnt read whole thread, didnt read whole log...but what i understude (i might be wrong) some ppl dont like Remm cause of the way he acted as dictator or something.

I dont get you guys. What kind of game you think you playing? Bridge with old grannies?

There is no democracy....only dictators with better or lesser skills with convincing their pilots that decision was made thanks to their opinionLaughing (others are only leaders untill first danger come close by)


This game need more ppl like Remm...plenty of polite and boring diplomats anyway all over space

deadEd
Caldari
Ardent Spirits
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:14:00 - [156]
 

Edited by: deadEd on 17/07/2006 08:14:31
double post, ignore

deadEd
Caldari
Ardent Spirits
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:14:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Body Count
This boys and girls is called a mistake. Making fun of dead players who ran the first eve killboard and was so respected that his mates named a station in his honour is a bad move.


In case this hasn't become bleedingly obvious yet, "Goons" and "Class" don't go together. They never have gone together, they never will go together, and you know what? They don't want it to go together. If anything, watching everyone flip their lid over it will make them that much more inclined to joke about it in the future.

Whether it's concentrated hilarity or a total affront to your sensibilities really doesn't matter a whole lot, since they generally aren't going to try to please anyone but themselves with that sort of thing.

Body Count
Minmatar
Necrosys Syndicate
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:20:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: deadEd
Originally by: Body Count
This boys and girls is called a mistake. Making fun of dead players who ran the first eve killboard and was so respected that his mates named a station in his honour is a bad move.


In case this hasn't become bleedingly obvious yet, "Goons" and "Class" don't go together. They never have gone together, they never will go together, and you know what? They don't want it to go together. If anything, watching everyone flip their lid over it will make them that much more inclined to joke about it in the future.

Whether it's concentrated hilarity or a total affront to your sensibilities really doesn't matter a whole lot, since they generally aren't going to try to please anyone but themselves with that sort of thing.
Actually you saving that it reminds me of a british phenomenon I've been told about. Could goons be the first "chav" alliance?

Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:24:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Darcuese
Edited by: Darcuese on 17/07/2006 08:13:57
Didnt read whole thread, didnt read whole log...but what i understude (i might be wrong) some ppl dont like Remm cause of the way he acted as dictator or something.

I dont get you guys. What kind of game you think you playing? Bridge with old grannies?

There is no democracy....only dictators with better or lesser skills with convincing their pilots that decision was made thanks to their opinionLaughing (others are only leaders untill first danger come close by)


This game need more ppl like Remm...plenty of polite and boring diplomats anyway all over space




He ovbiusly has some kind of WW2 tick, his ingame picture is Adolf ****** and tbh, he acts on his forums like him.
Same for some other goon alts out here, talking about euthanism and other stuff.

Its just disgusting.

Vile rat
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:25:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Body Count
Actually you saving that it reminds me of a british phenomenon I've been told about. Could goons be the first "chav" alliance?


My apoc is kitted with burberry.

ZaKma
Gallente
Body Count Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:26:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Darcuese
Edited by: Darcuese on 17/07/2006 08:13:57
Didnt read whole thread, didnt read whole log...but what i understude (i might be wrong) some ppl dont like Remm cause of the way he acted as dictator or something.

I dont get you guys. What kind of game you think you playing? Bridge with old grannies?

There is no democracy....only dictators with better or lesser skills with convincing their pilots that decision was made thanks to their opinionLaughing (others are only leaders untill first danger come close by)


This game need more ppl like Remm...plenty of polite and boring diplomats anyway all over space



There is a fine line between just messing around or smacking and between insults that go beyond the game into real life.

He crossed it. And no this game doesn't need more people like him. I don't mind smackers at all, or if someone insults me. But when you read that from most, you know that it's just for fun and since this is a game we can have fun.

The insults in those 3 pages were not written in that manner. They were downright personal attacks and insults.

I for one would never work with someone like that, especially considering that they all just want to help their corp and he hits them down like that.

Kesslar Znel
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:30:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: ZaKma


I for one would never work with someone like that, especially considering that they all just want to help their corp and he hits them down like that.

Solution: Don't join Goonfleet.

Anita Haircut
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:35:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
Imagine, if you will, a school bus full of special needs children doped to the gills on crystal meth. Now imagine that you've given them all sharp objects and a few handguns, and convinced them all that what they REALLY WANT is to die for Dear Leader and take someone with them in the process.

Then you take that bus, dump nitrous into the gas tank, supercharge the engine, lock the accelerator at full throttle and point that bus in the general direction of your enemies, and just before you leap out of it you put the most hyperactive of the meth-addicted tard kids behind the wheel and tell him to have fun and that he's an excellent driver.

That's what it's like being a Goonswarm director. It's not pretty, but the fireworks are spectacular. ^_^


This made me laugh SO HARD I spit beer out of my nose!!!!!!

I love GOON. You guys are awesome in my book. Those arrogant D2 "we have more SP than you and have been in alliances forever so listen to us or die" types need to be put into their place. Their time has come and gone. Time for GOON to wipe them out.



ZaKma
Gallente
Body Count Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:35:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Kesslar Znel
Originally by: ZaKma


I for one would never work with someone like that, especially considering that they all just want to help their corp and he hits them down like that.

Solution: Don't join Goonfleet.


Rolling Eyes

Virtuality
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:39:00 - [165]
 

Edited by: Virtuality on 17/07/2006 08:39:39
Originally by: ZaKma

I for one would never work with someone like that, especially considering that they all just want to help their corp and he hits them down like that.


Notice what Remedial's big vision is though.

GoonSwarm made a promise to back Sparta who have allied themselves with GoonSwarm and Remedial wants us to do everything we can to do that. Some of the other directors voiced their concerns over being over extended or putting ourselves in a bad situation. You can't fault a man for wanting to remain loyal.

NOObbody
Caldari
The X-Trading Company
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:39:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Anita HaircutI love GOON. You guys are awesome in my book. Those arrogant D2 "we have more SP than you and have been in alliances forever so listen to us or die" types need to be put into their place. Their time has come and gone. Time for GOON to wipe them out.


[/quote



Maybe you should come and visit Deklein to see who is getting "wiped out"? And the help SPR received from GS so far,is... pathetic.

cheru
Gallente
Starlancers
Insurgency
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:42:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Kesslar Znel
Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte

you remembe remedials "joke" about a player who died??



The worst thing about Remedial's joke about smoksie was that it wasn't as funny as it should have been.
...

Even with a "Take it easy" approach there are still borders that simply are not to be crossed.

Joerd Toastius
Amarr
Octavian Vanguard
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:44:00 - [168]
 

Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 17/07/2006 08:45:35
Originally by: deadEd
Originally by: Body Count
This boys and girls is called a mistake. Making fun of dead players who ran the first eve killboard and was so respected that his mates named a station in his honour is a bad move.


In case this hasn't become bleedingly obvious yet, "Goons" and "Class" don't go together. They never have gone together, they never will go together, and you know what? They don't want it to go together. If anything, watching everyone flip their lid over it will make them that much more inclined to joke about it in the future.

Whether it's concentrated hilarity or a total affront to your sensibilities really doesn't matter a whole lot, since they generally aren't going to try to please anyone but themselves with that sort of thing.


Which basically brings us to the real root of most of the issues that the existing community has with GF, which is that they're not really part of the Eve Community and, it seems, don't want to be. They're bona fide outsiders, they seem to have no real intention of "integrating" and, to make it worse, they're using their "outsider" status to gain significant advantage over existing alliances by leveraging the huge SA userbase to field swarms of cheap ships.

Whether this is a justifiable response or not is up to you. This isn't real life, it's a game. But despite the fact that they're playing in the same space, I'm not sure that GS, certainly under Remedial, are playing the same game as the rest of the cluster. Again, is that bad? I'm not sure. But it again goes some way to explain why other alliances don't like them. Briefly under Hoe it seems that they were playing Eve in a way the rest of us recognise, and playing it damn well, but it looks like that phase may have passed. What happens next? Who knows. But the problems will continue...



Originally by: Darcuese
There is no democracy....only dictators with better or lesser skills with convincing their pilots that decision was made thanks to their opinionLaughing (others are only leaders untill first danger come close by)


I suspect with a lot of people the issue with Remedial's leadership style is not that he's running GS as a ruthless dictatorship, but that he appears to be doing it badly. Castro vs Mao - the analogies are all fairly obvious if you think about it properly for a few seconds.

ZaKma
Gallente
Body Count Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:52:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Virtuality
Edited by: Virtuality on 17/07/2006 08:39:39
Originally by: ZaKma

I for one would never work with someone like that, especially considering that they all just want to help their corp and he hits them down like that.


Notice what Remedial's big vision is though.

GoonSwarm made a promise to back Sparta who have allied themselves with GoonSwarm and Remedial wants us to do everything we can to do that. Some of the other directors voiced their concerns over being over extended or putting ourselves in a bad situation. You can't fault a man for wanting to remain loyal.


His vision is fine. Goons goals are fine. I never said otherwise.

What is not fine is the way he acts. And no matter what he accomplishes in EVE, even if he wipes out all other alliances and claims all space, all I will ever remember him for are his insults. There are lines that you do not cross, video game or not.

Darcuese
Amarr
Destructive Influence
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.07.17 08:53:00 - [170]
 

Edited by: Darcuese on 17/07/2006 08:56:15
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Darcuese
Edited by: Darcuese on 17/07/2006 08:13:57
Didnt read whole thread, didnt read whole log...but what i understude (i might be wrong) some ppl dont like Remm cause of the way he acted as dictator or something.

I dont get you guys. What kind of game you think you playing? Bridge with old grannies?

There is no democracy....only dictators with better or lesser skills with convincing their pilots that decision was made thanks to their opinionLaughing (others are only leaders untill first danger come close by)


This game need more ppl like Remm...plenty of polite and boring diplomats anyway all over space




He ovbiusly has some kind of WW2 tick, his ingame picture is Adolf ****** and tbh, he acts on his forums like him.
Same for some other goon alts out here, talking about euthanism and other stuff.

Its just disgusting.


Disgusting or not...this game is role play game. Plenty of space for all. And since it is a game it should be opened for all type of roles, IMO. When you consider that majority of pilots is above 18 and 21, then their mind should be strong enough for not taking some things granted (as some things that in RL are considered bad, this is a game where "evil" is and should be part of it). If you are disgust with somebody in game, go out, kill it and get down with it/him/her.

Internal behaviour (inside corp orm alliance) is different. Pilots have option to step out from corp alliance if the dont feel comfort with...or overthrow leadership.

But in the end this is a game...and "barbarian" sort of leadeship and acting is only "+" for game in global.

If you read something on local that you dont feel comfort with..close local or dont read. If you get evemail with crap writen all over...petition it.

But telling someone how they should act and play this game is not something positive for game its self. This is only my opinion however, and i dont have problems with RL issue brought in game where i have control to handle with such

And about tactics or insults...no point to argue about it. You have input and output. Everything in between is variaty of ppl and their aproach. Final results count however, rest is just for forum whoring

Joerd Toastius
Amarr
Octavian Vanguard
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.07.17 09:06:00 - [171]
 

Whether comments like that should be "allowed" at all is a seperate issue. The main point is that comments like that will have consequences. Do the goons care that they're upsetting and angering an awful lot of people by doing so?

deadEd
Caldari
Ardent Spirits
Posted - 2006.07.17 09:11:00 - [172]
 

Edited by: deadEd on 17/07/2006 09:12:46
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Whether comments like that should be "allowed" at all is a seperate issue. The main point is that comments like that will have consequences. Do the goons care that they're upsetting and angering an awful lot of people by doing so?


I think the amount of people that Goonfleet's tactics and general behaviour bother to the extent of making tactical alliances impossible is being grossly over-exaggerated. People will be mad, sure, but mad enough to forget all the other important aspects of the game and just declare a never-ending vendetta against them? Not likely (not to mention anyone with skin that thin would probably work terribly with them anyway).

Not saying they don't cheese people off, but I think the much larger majority is comprised of those who can either put aside their anger for strategical/tactical benefit, or those that simply don't care one way or another. Ultimately, they know that (and most everyone else does too). They're organized as hell, generally smack-free, and will fight to death and beyond. That alone will make people want to deal with them.


Mokojn
Caldari
The Angeleyes
Posted - 2006.07.17 09:12:00 - [173]
 

Edited by: Mokojn on 17/07/2006 09:12:29
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Whether comments like that should be "allowed" at all is a seperate issue. The main point is that comments like that will have consequences. Do the goons care that they're upsetting and angering an awful lot of people by doing so?


No, we don't care. The truth is that we try to let our actions speak for us. Yes, we might be offensive and oafish but our allies see us risking anything and everything to help them in any way we can, and that we're not just doing it because of some political/personal goals, but because underneath the jokes we're incredibly friendly and want to help others succeed with us.

General Hansen
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.07.17 09:16:00 - [174]
 


After reading this thread I would buy lots of beers for Remedial if I ever met him.



Joerd Toastius
Amarr
Octavian Vanguard
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.07.17 09:17:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: Mokojn
Edited by: Mokojn on 17/07/2006 09:12:29
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Whether comments like that should be "allowed" at all is a seperate issue. The main point is that comments like that will have consequences. Do the goons care that they're upsetting and angering an awful lot of people by doing so?


No, we don't care. The truth is that we try to let our actions speak for us. Yes, we might be offensive and oafish but our allies see us risking anything and everything to help them in any way we can, and that we're not just doing it because of some political/personal goals, but because underneath the jokes we're incredibly friendly and want to help others succeed with us.


Which is exactly my point. TBH I think it's self-reinforcing to a degree - a vocal proportion of the community don't like you, so why should you care? But, at the same time, they don't like you because you don't care - you've turned up and ****ed in their cereals and then laughed in their face when they objected. Are you really, honestly surprised at all the negative reactions that you've got in light of this?

I'm not even sure there is solution to this any more - first impressions and all that. And no, I agree that this on its own probably won't cause GS overwhelming tactical or strategic problems on its own, but I do think it explains the attitudes of a lot of people towards GS...

Compliance
Caldari
The Greater Goon
Clockwork Pineapple
Posted - 2006.07.17 09:33:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: fmercury


Remedial is held in complete contempt by 100% of the non-goonfleet goon community. I can't think of a single goon outside of goonfleet that doesn't absolutley despise him.


Most of these folks were closely associated with him in other incarnations of Goon corps, and were left with a decidedly bitter taste in their mouths.


It's not a matter of despising him. After having been in every single corp that Remedial has led (not including Goonfleet although I had an outstanding invitation for 2 weeks), I can honestly say he is absolutely no fun to play the game with. For God's sake, he threw a hissyfit at his girlfriend and stormed out of his apartment over a TeamSpeak arguement at one point.

I've been playing for 3 years with Remedial and the other veteran goons, and I can honestly tell you that I don't hate Remedial on a personal level, but I would never, ever, trust him in a leadership position.

Degaal Valen
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2006.07.17 09:34:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Are you really, honestly surprised at all the negative reactions that you've got in light of this?


Who said we're surprised?

Inanna Sumer
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.07.17 09:41:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Happydayz
Someone needs to post a link to the goonfleet keyboard that was made up recently. Having spent some time on their teamspeak and in gangs I can assure you that it is pretty much an accurate reflection of what's said during ops and idle time


I don't think the language featured on a GoonFleet keyboard would go over too well with the local moderators.

Floppy Disk
Minmatar
The First Foundation
SOLAR FLEET
Posted - 2006.07.17 09:52:00 - [179]
 

Edited by: Floppy Disk on 17/07/2006 09:57:07
Damnit I had a long post written up and I hit back or some crap and it messed up. Long Story short:

We're not surprised that people don't like us, because Goons always have people that don't like them. Goons primary goal is to have fun, but to accomplish that we can be intensely serious when we need to be.

I don't want some "solution" to make people like us, I prefer to let people IN GAME play with us and see how we really are. Not based on some incredibly scewed perspective of the general Eve-O population. And please spare me the "Remedial is your CEO therefore if he is an ******* you are too". It's intellectually lazy and not at all true.

Jon Ominor
Caldari
Magellanic Itg
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.07.17 09:52:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: Joerd Toastius
I suspect with a lot of people the issue with Remedial's leadership style is not that he's running GS as a ruthless dictatorship, but that he appears to be doing it badly. Castro vs Mao - the analogies are all fairly obvious if you think about it properly for a few seconds.


I don't know how you define "running it badly" but...well, I can't see how things are going badly at all. A dictatorship actually works great in this game. There are way, way too many difference between a real-life dictatorship and the ones in EVE to even begin comparing, but here's a key difference and a key similarity. The difference is that if you don't like the dictatorship in the game, you can just say "whatever" and go elsewhere, and no one's going to point a gun at your head demanding you stay. The similarity is that the dictator himself is usually an absurdly driven, selfish person (be it power, glory, money, etc).

What sets Rem apart is that he is so intensely devoted to the success and well-being of this alliance. It's clearly not for money, and if it is for power or glory, that's fine with me because I couldn't ask for a better alliance to be in. And it's not like he's walking the path to power and glory on the corpses of his subjects. You're not going to get anywhere by trying to make 2,500 people who are playing an entirely optional COMPUTER GAME do things they don't want to do in the first place. And GoonSwarm just keeps on getting bigger, and it's not because there are a lot of non-GoonFleet corps being added to the alliance (there are, but corps like mine are a drop in the bucket compared to GF's numbers).

As for the "Well he made fun of someone who died" thing, EVE is a part of the internet, which is located entirely within the real world. If Leno made a joke about someone who blew himself up fishing with dynamite, would you be horribly offended? Probably not, but that person's family and friends sure would be. The only people who need to try and please everyone are real life politicians, and they're not very good at it despite their careers hinging on it!


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