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Giganticus
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.07.15 23:28:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Giganticus on 16/07/2006 20:11:27
WE REPORT, YOU DECIDE!

Fixed Linkage for hawt Goon Drama action! (read every page - thanks to Yokohead and "Adar" for hosting)

Also this may be the first that Goons have actually heard of such a thing. So this may be news for them too!

*snip*

And as I took the effort to make this kid friendly, I would hope that mods clamp down on any nasty people posting in here, rather than on the actual thread.

Please keep it polite - Serathu ([email protected])

ISD Serathu


Caldari
ISD Interstellar Correspondents
Posted - 2006.07.15 23:44:00 - [2]
 

Thread unlocked.

I invite you to read the Forum Rules again before posting and adhere to them completely. We will be operating a zero-tolerance policy from now on in this thread.

You have been warned.

Raem Civrie
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.07.16 01:38:00 - [3]
 

Remedial the Autocrat.

There's a reason that was almost a swearword in ancient Rome. Glad to see my "Goonfleet is going to rip itself apart" predictions are coming true. Those have been a bit off recently.

Eldo Davip


Minmatar
ISD YARR
Posted - 2006.07.16 01:38:00 - [4]
 

Yes, please pay attention to Serathu. Also Abdalion is somewhere around, he's got a pretty large banhammer now.

Lorth
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.07.16 01:38:00 - [5]
 

/me runs through the thread with no pants screaming like a banshee

Quick, they are distracted, flame away while they'r not looking.


But seriously, how in the world does a corp run with so much desent in the higher ranks? I would think that with situations like this happening, it would be a deep a trouble some time for the goons. When leaders can't aggree, nothing gets done.

Stamm
Amarr
RHC
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.07.16 01:43:00 - [6]
 

Hmm. I've always seen Remedial as Goonfleet. At times he can't help himself from smacking. At other times his sense of humour is simply inspired.

It's not intentional, but since NBSI were defeated (we fought hard!) in Tenal, I've not been far from Goons.

I've killed a hundred or two of them, but I'm not in any sense of the word anything significant to goons.

What I have noticed is a lot of their names, a lot of who they are, what they do and what they are like.

And from what I've seen Remedial has done nothing except work for Goonfleet. There's Sefan and Mr Rooflez, and I'm reasonably sure they've been pleasant in local a few times when there's been a bit of good natured chat.

I should probably say I really do not like Remedial, but after spending so much time around Goonfleet, I can't help but have some respect for his dedication. It doesn't seem right to rip it all from him.

Abdalion


Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.07.16 01:47:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Lorth
Quick, they are distracted, flame away while they'r not looking.


I was actually over here Linkage when this thread was restored. I then spent a moment popping my eyeballs back in my head.

Please be respectful and understand the rules before posting in this thread or any other. It isn't necessary to attack others on the forums, or to perform concentrated protests in public view. We mods have a job to do, and we will do it.

If there is something you need to inquire about, mail [email protected] in the future.

By the way Lorth, I am considering an "inciting to flame" addendum to go into our warning generator system, and I am tempted to call it "To Lorth a thread is to ask people to flame". Smile

<3

This thread has now been placed back on topic.

Raem Civrie
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.07.16 01:58:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Stamm
Hmm. I've always seen Remedial as Goonfleet. At times he can't help himself from smacking. At other times his sense of humour is simply inspired.

It's not intentional, but since NBSI were defeated (we fought hard!) in Tenal, I've not been far from Goons.

I've killed a hundred or two of them, but I'm not in any sense of the word anything significant to goons.

What I have noticed is a lot of their names, a lot of who they are, what they do and what they are like.

And from what I've seen Remedial has done nothing except work for Goonfleet. There's Sefan and Mr Rooflez, and I'm reasonably sure they've been pleasant in local a few times when there's been a bit of good natured chat.

I should probably say I really do not like Remedial, but after spending so much time around Goonfleet, I can't help but have some respect for his dedication. It doesn't seem right to rip it all from him.


The problem is that he sees Goonfleet as "his". To an extent it is, but Goonfleet is essentially the people in it, the people that group up in three-hundred man blobs and zerg some people with frigates, the people that go where they're pointed to, and because of that Goonfleet isn't his anymore. It's an established entity now in the game, and like his two nemesii in those threads point out, he's little more than a ruthless autocrat with no regard for the advice of others. Goonfleet is simply at a point where a one-man leadership is more detrimental than beneficial, no matter how "strong and dedicated" that leader is.

Francois duPari
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2006.07.16 02:04:00 - [9]
 

Linking interal discussions is always lame, but honestly this isnt a big deal. Leaders argue about stuff all the time. There are a lot of very big decisions to be made and ideas and personalities will clash.

It is good for goons that their leaders are putting so much into this and trying so hard to take figure out the next steps.

Keep up the good work goons, your Progress is the measure.

Nukeitall
Gallente
Convergent
Firmus Ixion
Posted - 2006.07.16 02:06:00 - [10]
 

I've always thought that internal discussions should remain..er..internal.

Lorth
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.07.16 02:13:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Francois duPari
Linking interal discussions is always lame, but honestly this isnt a big deal. Leaders argue about stuff all the time. There are a lot of very big decisions to be made and ideas and personalities will clash.



Well your right about the first point.

And to a degree about the second point as well. However, even though there are a lot of debates taking place in the directors area of the average corp, I've never seen anything that got as heated as this did. I'd also like to add, in every single sucesfull corp I know of, once someone makes a decision, the whole of the leadership supports that decision. Its called teamwork, and swallowing your pride for the good of the corp.

When situtations of like what happens in the above log, its a strong indication of trouble "a-brew'n." And a group of leaders who are as disgrunteled as these guys are, are the beginings of a major internal breakdown in most cases.

Raem Civrie
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.07.16 02:19:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Lorth
*stuff*


The best part though is that it got leaked, and it's fun to analyze and comment on it based just on those leaked internal forum posts. It's like some sort of political voyeurism

Amorti
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2006.07.16 02:31:00 - [13]
 

Goonfleet's director-level discussion forums and channels have been like that since day one. This is why there have been half a dozen significant directorship purges in Goonfleet's nine months of life. With over 2000 members, there are always new people willing to step up and spend a few months learning just what dealing with Remedial is like.

Early on, he was allowed to establish a cult of personality among the new recruits and this Mao-like worship coupled with the fact that the general membership so seldomly sees what a tremendously petulant child he turns into when he doesn't get his way is the only reason he's able to pull this kind of crap again and again and again.

The Protect Remedial! instinct is so great among the members who have no self respect that I would be shocked if this thread isn't spammed until locked yet again. Even now their internal forums are in a state of lockdown:

Originally by: Remedial
I am tired of seeing these threads. I am tired of seeing rampant speculation. I am tired of seeing goons going on Eve-O and attempting to "avenge" the corp in a ******ed way which makes us look [bad].

...

This is the only warning. If you make a post that continues, exacerbates, analyzes, or has anything to do with director tensions, potential drama from the CEOship, Remedial > Hoegaarden, or any other [unpleasant stuff], you will lose all of your forum rights. This is the only warning you'll get.


The saddest thing is that this threat will silence all but a tiny handful of lonely martyrs. Remedial will remain CEO and the entire general membership will stay with him. In two months, the new lieutenants who replace those who have just been purged will either leave or be removed from the corp in turn, and some of those who left on bad terms months before will return.

Let there be no doubt: D2 will still lose their war with Goonfleet, because outside of the minor dissent at the very top thanks to conflict between the dysfunctional personalities required to want to lead a 2000 member corporation, the goons are utterly unified in purpose.

Oliberto Stewart
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2006.07.16 02:37:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Oliberto Stewart on 16/07/2006 02:38:23
I do not see a point to this thread other than flaming Rolling Eyes

I believe several lordless members are former Goonfleet members that quit. So a third party (Lordless member) devoting a thread to "damning" private communications is obviously a flame.


deadEd
Caldari
Ardent Spirits
Posted - 2006.07.16 02:40:00 - [15]
 

It's leaked information that MAY contain information that allies and enemies alike of GS could be very much interested in. It's done with malice, but pretty much all information leaks and the like are.

guckfoons
Caldari
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.07.16 02:44:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: guckfoons on 16/07/2006 02:46:34
Originally by: Raem Civrie
Originally by: Lorth
*stuff*


The best part though is that it got leaked, and it's fun to analyze and comment on it based just on those leaked internal forum posts. It's like some sort of political voyeurism


i thought it was quite embarassing and pathetic really. would have prefered at least some more goon sekrets revealed.

only things i gathered were:

- KIA are going to attack D2 for free [not particularly amazing, they probably want to do something "fun" and dont like D2]

- Goons hired BE [well you could look at the BE kb for today and see that. smart move though]

- Goons got the password for a YouWhat POS [hahaha...a bit more interesting]


other than that, yawn.

Oliberto Stewart
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2006.07.16 03:12:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: deadEd
It's leaked information that MAY contain information that allies and enemies alike of GS could be very much interested in. It's done with malice, but pretty much all information leaks and the like are.


True, but posting a thread that showcases a private discussion, with the sole intent to create a DRAMABOMB sets a lousy precedent.

Or has this happened before?


Abdalion


Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.07.16 03:22:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Oliberto Stewart
Or has this happened before?


Unfortunately yes.

Red Six
Minmatar
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.07.16 03:25:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Oliberto Stewart
Originally by: deadEd
It's leaked information that MAY contain information that allies and enemies alike of GS could be very much interested in. It's done with malice, but pretty much all information leaks and the like are.


True, but posting a thread that showcases a private discussion, with the sole intent to create a DRAMABOMB sets a lousy precedent.

Or has this happened before?




Try finding some of the FA releases of CA Teamspeak meetings from 2003. This has been going on since the start of the game. Espionage is as much a part of this game as anything, get used to it.

Trina Tron
Gallente
Contraband Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2006.07.16 03:33:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Trina Tron on 16/07/2006 03:34:07
I would act surprised or shocked or something but frankly I've known remedial far to long.

Logan Williams
Caldari
Bi-Polar Bears
Posted - 2006.07.16 04:27:00 - [21]
 

So lemme get this straight.......the corp and the IGA have been nothing but tools for Remedial. Because of their pride, the corp and the IGA will remain tools for Remeial.

Kids, this is what happens when an internet community allows kids to be their representatives.......elitist, twisted leadership leading to in-game hassles for all.

Stay tuned, I see a future showdown between MySpace and SA Rolling Eyes

deadEd
Caldari
Ardent Spirits
Posted - 2006.07.16 04:42:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Logan Williams
Kids, this is what happens when an internet community allows kids to be their representatives.......elitist, twisted leadership leading to in-game hassles for all.


It depends how you look at it...that's one way, and here's another way (note: Devil's Advocate is the only language I speak past midnight)

The only real issue here is that Goonfleet/GoonWaffe were operating in one way (directors/ceo making joint decisions) while Remedial wanted it another (dictatorship, act now talk later, directors help him achieve his goals for the corp/alliance). Either one of these can be made to work, but you kind of need to choose one over the other, otherwise they clash and lead to stupidity like everyone has seen in that forum leak.

Of course it wasnt helped by the fact that there was obviously plenty of bad blood before it all came to a head, and there will be people leaving over it, it won't seriously impact Goonfleet much, mainly because of Remedial's "grab the devil by the horns" style of leadership. There's a large core of people that would easily follow anything he asked.

So yeah, there's some kicks to be had out of reading it, and its sucked for a lot of people that got unfairly trampled by it all, but its certainly not definite death or anything for Goonfleet either (but by that token, its not guaranteed to all magically work out either).

Alaesa
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2006.07.16 05:07:00 - [23]
 

god damm stupid forums not accepting my post.

what is sad about this is the lengths people were goign to try and hide it.

posting the sick **** to getteh threads deleted.

NATMav
Caldari
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2006.07.16 05:09:00 - [24]
 

I'm just glad the mods allowed this thread to finally see light.

I was afraid a few immature idiots were going to keep it from going public.

Pan Crastus
Amarr
Anti-Metagaming League
Posted - 2006.07.16 05:24:00 - [25]
 

Remedial seems to be cool. Action is more important than rules and while both sides were unable to admit their (obvious) mistakes, at least he had results to justify his actions.


Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.07.16 05:45:00 - [26]
 

rofl

<3 for goons

Tuijabird
Gallente
Dark Angel Battalion
Posted - 2006.07.16 05:49:00 - [27]
 

Wow did everyone else miss the part of sparta dying and goon worrying about themselfs? Great allies I guess was rooting for sparta too in this.

Liet Traep
Minmatar
Dark-Rising
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.07.16 05:57:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Liet Traep on 16/07/2006 06:11:05
E-R has a policy of not commenting on things that happen in the corps and alliances section. So I will refrain from commenting and instead munch on some popcorn.

DeltaH
Gallente
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.07.16 06:33:00 - [29]
 

I thought Remedials post were hilarious. Come on ... the picard line is golden.

Kaldaine
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.07.16 06:38:00 - [30]
 

The only surprising thing to anyone who knows the Goonfleet directorate are the people Rem ****ed off. Cefte, Hoe and Neccette are some of the best directors that GF has and some of the people who worked the hardest for them. They are very levelheaded and extremely dedicated.

Really its not that big a deal. This is one of the few times it has reached such an extreme point but for the most part the directors yell at each other and call each other names as much as possible. I doubt anyone else in this thread has any clue what its like to run a medium/large corp let alone a 2k+ member alliance. I would be more dissapointed if they didnt wonder whether/not SPARTA would hold up and how they would come out of it if they didnt.

Goonfleet is not run like an ordinary alliance. The directors work to keep everyone happy as much as they possibly can. They debate endlessly and work extremely hard so the members have as much fun as possible. The logistics involved in doing anything in an alliance that size are incredible. New techniques have to be thought up frequently to combat the enormous disadvantages and odds that are stacked against them. How to overcome low SP, member ambivalence, few FCs, logistics, lack of capships etc. Most FC's and directors do not even have 6 million SP. Let that sink in. A majority of the people running the corp would have trouble getting into many 0.0 alliances.

Yet Goonfleet is able to set up logistics for 1500 people in a system 20-30 jumps away within a day or two and fight an effective war. Outfitting 1500 pilots who dont have corp hangar access with frigates is no small task. Keeping them outfitted is even worse.

Running such a corp is an extreme challenge and some of the decisions that are made are bitterly contested. To make much of this is foolish and to underestimate Goonfleet even worse.


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