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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2006.07.04 16:12:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 04/07/2006 16:16:44
This is a post about a new target painter functionality. I largely started on this due to Minmatar complaints that their racial EW is worthless. Also I have some knowledge gaps, so please don't flame me right away but correct me first.

First a bit of theory.

Target painters as implemented today in EVE increase the signature radius of the painted ship by a certain % (depends on painter used, target painting skills and ship bonuses). As far as the functionality goes, this feature is usefull mostly to missile users and does very little to turret users. Secondary effect is faster lock time, but for that sensor boosters work better, and somebody has to have the ship already locked and is painting it.

How I imagine target painting.

Basicaly, the target painter paints an electronic mark (tag) on the painted ship, that should make it easier for the ship sensor (and targeting computer) to spot and hit. In the EVE world of today, what does not help you damage or cripple your enemy is not worth using as attack is considered to be better than defense (tanking). So the target painter should enhance offensive capabilities. 3/4 of the ships in EVE use turrets as their main weapons. Main exceptions are Caldari missile ships (and a few non-caldari missile ships) and drone ships (mostly Gallente). So we need to do something usefull for turrets in order to make TPs usefull.

Tracking is the key. There are some factors that affect a guns tracking, most important are tracking speed, optimal and falloff range, signature resolution. We already have modules (or skills) that help with the first 3 variables (tracking, optimal, falloff). And target painters as they exist now help with the last one a bit. And that's also the part I want to change. As of now, we have NO way of changing the guns signature resolution other than fitting a different class gun.

Imagine that a target painter would CHANGE THE GUNS SIGNATURE RESOLUTION to that of the painted ship. That would help very much with the tracking of the gun.

I think everybody now thinks "what about missiles" ? The answer is NOTHING !!! The new target painter should not affect missiles in any way. After all, there already exist precision missiles.

Now to the actual module itself. It should have following attributes:

minimal signature recognized - this means all targets ABOVE this sig will be affected by the painter
range - simple, how far can we paint
error margin - this is a % number that says what accuracy the painter has. basicaly if this is 50%, then the painter will adjust the gun signature resolution to 150% of the painted target sig radius
cap use per cycle
cycle duration

of course fitting

There should be target painters of various mix of attributes (this I would leave to the DEVs).

Skills and ship bonuses should affect: error margin (obviously lower it), range, cap use per cycle.

To protect small ships, there should be no target painter that affects signatures lower than 50m imo (or does have a high error margin). Also it does not affect anything except how guns see the target, so no locking time changes. If multiple TPs are used on the target, only the best one is considered and they do not stack/add up. Actualy to make it perfect, a random painter effect from the ones painting the ship should be selected.

flame away

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.07.04 16:27:00 - [2]
 

You know that sig radius is very important for guns hitting also?

There's a chance-to-hit modifier of sqrt(enemy sig radius / your gun sig radius) (it doesn't go above 1). This means if your battleship is shooting a frigate, it'll miss like 70% of the time. Painting lowers this chance to miss.

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2006.07.04 16:35:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Dark Shikari
You know that sig radius is very important for guns hitting also?

There's a chance-to-hit modifier of sqrt(enemy sig radius / your gun sig radius) (it doesn't go above 1). This means if your battleship is shooting a frigate, it'll miss like 70% of the time. Painting lowers this chance to miss.


Yes I know that (but I did not know the exact rule). However actual target painter have very little effect on that I think.

Lord Drachenfels
Caldari
Posted - 2006.07.04 16:45:00 - [4]
 

I think you should read this:Tracking guide Before you complain about target painters on guns.. They er equally effective to missiles and guns Wink

Haruko Red
Posted - 2006.07.04 16:48:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Haruko Red on 04/07/2006 16:52:12
Actually TP works exactly as you want them to work - they DO help to track your target.

It's all about chance to hit. The probability formula is something like (1/2)^( (Transv. Velosity/(Range*Tracking)*(Sig.Resolution/Sig.Radius)^2 ) )+ falloff part which is not important here. By increasing Sig.Radius TP increase your chance to hit.

Also, unlike you said, TP do increase damage. You see, the better tracking you have, the more "well aimed" and "excellent" hits you do with your guns.

So, you can by proud of yourself - you think just like the EVE devs do, but, just a bit more straightforward. :)

As for minmatar opinion about TP, probably it's just a part of their nature - they prefer to grab as much guns and firepower as they can, instead of learning something about "a-strange-looking-laser-device-which-seems-do-not-help-at-all". ;)

Murukan
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.07.04 16:50:00 - [6]
 

Don't say the name of such a cursed module it is offending!!

Mudkest
Adventurers
Matari Visionary Coalition
Posted - 2006.07.04 17:10:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Hugh Ruka

Imagine that a target painter would CHANGE THE GUNS SIGNATURE RESOLUTION to that of the painted ship. That would help very much with the tracking of the gun.


imagine a dread shooting a frigate from 100km+ away so tracking isnt much of an issue but sig radius is, can you say ouch? o.O

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2006.07.04 19:22:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Mudkest
Originally by: Hugh Ruka

Imagine that a target painter would CHANGE THE GUNS SIGNATURE RESOLUTION to that of the painted ship. That would help very much with the tracking of the gun.


imagine a dread shooting a frigate from 100km+ away so tracking isnt much of an issue but sig radius is, can you say ouch? o.O


maybe you could read the remaining part of the post ? I did think about such a scenario

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2006.07.04 19:23:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 04/07/2006 19:23:34
Originally by: Haruko Red
Edited by: Haruko Red on 04/07/2006 16:52:12
Actually TP works exactly as you want them to work - they DO help to track your target.

It's all about chance to hit. The probability formula is something like (1/2)^( (Transv. Velosity/(Range*Tracking)*(Sig.Resolution/Sig.Radius)^2 ) )+ falloff part which is not important here. By increasing Sig.Radius TP increase your chance to hit.

Also, unlike you said, TP do increase damage. You see, the better tracking you have, the more "well aimed" and "excellent" hits you do with your guns.

So, you can by proud of yourself - you think just like the EVE devs do, but, just a bit more straightforward. :)

As for minmatar opinion about TP, probably it's just a part of their nature - they prefer to grab as much guns and firepower as they can, instead of learning something about "a-strange-looking-laser-device-which-seems-do-not-help-at-all". ;)


sig radius has no relation to hit quality (was tested not by me), only on hit chance.

painting the target above gun sig resolution has no effect.

Zed Nash
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.07.04 19:31:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 04/07/2006 19:23:34
Originally by: Haruko Red
Edited by: Haruko Red on 04/07/2006 16:52:12
Actually TP works exactly as you want them to work - they DO help to track your target.

It's all about chance to hit. The probability formula is something like (1/2)^( (Transv. Velosity/(Range*Tracking)*(Sig.Resolution/Sig.Radius)^2 ) )+ falloff part which is not important here. By increasing Sig.Radius TP increase your chance to hit.

Also, unlike you said, TP do increase damage. You see, the better tracking you have, the more "well aimed" and "excellent" hits you do with your guns.

So, you can by proud of yourself - you think just like the EVE devs do, but, just a bit more straightforward. :)

As for minmatar opinion about TP, probably it's just a part of their nature - they prefer to grab as much guns and firepower as they can, instead of learning something about "a-strange-looking-laser-device-which-seems-do-not-help-at-all". ;)


sig radius has no relation to hit quality (was tested not by me), only on hit chance.

painting the target above gun sig resolution has no effect.


More hits = More wreckings, more excellents.

TPs are decent mods, they help drones, they help turrets, they help missiles. They're just not mind-blowing in what they do, you get better results on more specialized mods.

Mudkest
Adventurers
Matari Visionary Coalition
Posted - 2006.07.04 20:19:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Mudkest
Originally by: Hugh Ruka

Imagine that a target painter would CHANGE THE GUNS SIGNATURE RESOLUTION to that of the painted ship. That would help very much with the tracking of the gun.


imagine a dread shooting a frigate from 100km+ away so tracking isnt much of an issue but sig radius is, can you say ouch? o.O


maybe you could read the remaining part of the post ? I did think about such a scenario


right, so replace frigate with cruiser, it'll stillb e pretty harsh that way


 

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