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Mistrall
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.06.29 11:34:00 - [121]
 

TomB,

then thats fine cos I see some thoughts finally being applied to the Recon. Perhaps specialising this ship combined with the new 'Explorer' role whilst keeping the smaller frigate 'cov-ops' class to fast probing with the new probes

so far so good..keep up the good work

Mistrall

Steppa
Gallente
Posted - 2006.06.29 12:43:00 - [122]
 

Well, thanks for acknowledging the fact that carriers=suicide machines in fleet combat. As for scanning covert ops ships, perhaps you would need a special probe to find them, but the alt with a covert ops sitting in a system idle all day has long been the bane of 0.0 operations. Since I don't think CCP will address problems using alts (due to it's impact on the financial bottom line), this is the next best thing. Now all we need is some fair and balanced way of dealing with idlers that are using up bandwidth and we're golden.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.06.29 15:06:00 - [123]
 

"so why is it not plenty being able to scan it when it is decloak when it may be actualy doing something to you other than putting you off mining because it's in system and you can't tell if he is afk or not just waiting for you to go do something like npc hunt.

god dam you don't deserve to be in 0.0 if you can't tactical lure it out and kill it with bait and your brains"


You can reverse this whine very easily -- if someone expects to be able to just put on a cloak and go afk for hours in 0.0 safespot perfectly safe, they "god dam don't deserve to be there" in the first place.

So they may have to move around every now and then. Noes.

Kyguard
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.06.29 16:28:00 - [124]
 

I need new pants and I need em now! Shocked

Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
Posted - 2006.06.29 17:52:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Donna Darko
OK, I've see 0.0 blobs jump through a gate in front of me quite often, and most of them lacked covert ops. My question was adressed to players, I was curious how many of you do it. You might just be the only person I know who only flies covert ops and scans every day. Anyway, faster scanning and specialization is not really what I have a problem with, but the Astrometrics skill change is.


You don't see them? Dude, that's the whole point Laughing

Seriously though. Blobs in 0.0 have coverts out. They're not with the blobs, because they're scouting ahead, but they're there. And if they're any good, you won't see them, even if you're looking for them. And while a lot of them don't bother with probes, many do. Going out without a prober is a drawback, but going out without a covops at all is suicide.

solidshot
Posted - 2006.06.29 19:19:00 - [126]
 

will it be possible to scan for drones, cans ect as well?

Gorion Wassenar
Caldari
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2006.06.29 20:16:00 - [127]
 

I am quite worried about the scanner spamming situation of anyone detecting a COVOP and just warping away. How are they supposed to sneak up on people? How about they do not show up on the ship scanners and just probes.

Bearclaww
Posted - 2006.06.29 22:53:00 - [128]
 

Scan for Cargo Cans....for all the one missions runners leave behind. It might be worthwhile sometimes

What about that

Maxlis
Caldari
Max Enterprises
Posted - 2006.06.29 23:34:00 - [129]
 

Wow, scanning is taking a turn for the awesome. I'll be glad to see this in game :)

Medici
Posted - 2006.06.30 01:10:00 - [130]
 

Cloaked ships turning up on a scanner?
Regarding Co-Ops and Recon,not sure its fitting for a dedicated stealth vessel to show up at all on any scans,for intelligence gathering and creating jump 2 warp in points,you want both suprise and stealth,which from reading the blog will go if they show up at all.
Maybe instead just allow for ships using Proto/Improved Cloaks to send back a register,it could be explained as something like ,"due to the inefficiancy of the Proto/Improved cloaks certain signal leakage is to be expected" so whilst invisible to the eye they emit small particles that to a varying degree and can show up on scans.
Regarding Cloaked zombies in your system all day,annoying yes but so are gatecamps,bubbles,100man gank fleets for 1 frig,macrominers,scammers,spys,corp theifs,moles,suicide kessie alt,log on traps,log off miner pansies,and a whole host of other things.
Please don't hit the skill specific Covert roles Tomb,there must be some kind of way keeping them stealthy?


Smile

booh
Posted - 2006.06.30 07:29:00 - [131]
 

Scanning for coverted ships is OK, it should take longer to scan for it though (maybe twice the normal time).

fuze
Gallente
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2006.06.30 08:21:00 - [132]
 

Scanning for coverts isn't that much affecting because they can move without any speed penalty. You'll still won't catch em, just scare them away at best. They still can keep moving around blobs at 2k or more distance without being found ever.

But what bugs me is the scientific theory behind this. How in Eve is it possible that a probe can scan a cloaked signature from several AU away? Some kind of subspace doppler radar with extraordinairy precision?
Then again Eve pretty much defies all know scientific theories.

How about adding beacons that give out false ship signatures? Make those special type of probes and you could have a nice chess game of ships trying to find eachother.

Scanning cloaked ships actually only affects proto and II cloakers since they can't move that fast. And pretty much makes them useless when being scanned.
So I agree that scanning coverts is hugely in favor of alliances and disfavors guerilla warfare. Its even in huge favor of any defensive group that can find all ships of an attacking smaller group and neutralize all ships.

It also is a huge problem with (older) storylines having cloaked jovian ships. Because they are all scannable now unless you come up with some advanced cloaking technology. But that sounds like an poor excuse to me.

I just don't like it when devs think out new stuff without thinking it through thorroughly because it affects the game too much and you have to come up with even more trainable skills tyring to undo the negative effects.
The new way of scanning is pretty much exciting but please keep in mind the effects of scanning cloaked ships. They are not to be taken lightly.

babylonstew
Caldari
Caldari Scouting and Intel Group
Posted - 2006.06.30 11:22:00 - [133]
 

well, being able to scan cloakers just kicked stealth bombers in the danglies, like they needed another kick
apart from the whole cloak thing, looks good

Donna Darko
Posted - 2006.06.30 11:24:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Originally by: Donna Darko
OK, I've see 0.0 blobs [...] and most of them lacked covert ops.


You don't see them? Dude, that's the whole point Laughing

Seriously though. Blobs in 0.0 have coverts out. They're not with the blobs, because they're scouting ahead, but they're there. And if they're any good, you won't see them, even if you're looking for them. And while a lot of them don't bother with probes, many do. Going out without a prober is a drawback, but going out without a covops at all is suicide.


Oh, come on, Joerd... Now you're just insulting my intelligence.

ArchenTheGreat
Caldari
Pulsar Nebulah
Army of Lovers.
Posted - 2006.06.30 11:41:00 - [135]
 

We all know there is some time to Kali. I have some questions than:

- will current probes be fixed before Kali comes out? I mean: make them all work like Deep Space Observator Probe - in full 3D.
- if you have no plans on fixing probes: will new probes work in 3D or like the old ones?
- please do not change meaning of Astrometrics skill, it takes a while to train it for lvl5 but it is worth it now, if you change it's meaning most of the time people will scan for only one group at a time (ships) making all those skillpoints useless
- will there be any tutorial "how to use scanner"?
- will you train GM in scanner use? I petitioned scan probes twice and got contradicting answers from GMs, the only way to learn how they worked was to train Astrometrics lvl5 (which costed me almost 15 euros only to find they are broken).

Medici
Posted - 2006.06.30 13:19:00 - [136]
 

Edited by: Medici on 30/06/2006 13:23:49
Originally by: booh
Scanning for coverted ships is OK, it should take longer to scan for it though (maybe twice the normal time).

Not intending to bait here Booh but why is it ok to be able to scan for Covert/Recon ships,I just don't get the devs reasoning to include this group also.
Taking these groups names in the strict sense,(Covert meaning hidden/secret and Recon/Reconnoiter* meaning to gather intelligence mainly military),just being visible and scannable for seems to nerf their named roles in Eve.
If these ships become scannable for with any probes,regardless of the fact they can still be cloaked and hard to catch,alerts a fleet to their prescence in a system.
If are then probed for the corp or alliance a rough position of the ship.
From here I would expect a fleet to start to adjust their strategies accordingly,which means whatever was you turn it a Covert is no longer hidden and a Recon is no longer picking up accurate information on a fleet/corps true movement/strategies as they are now alerted not only to position but also ship class.
Further impacted in this would be warp in points using Cov/Rec ships to drop jump in fleets onto targets,as above the fleet/corp would be aware of ship class and region and adjust accordingly.
Finally I don't see how making them longer to scan for helps either as intelligence gathering is can be fairly slow and time consuming anyway,so eventually your going to show up on the scans results and its back to square one.
Its not a flame Booh just trying to understand the Devs resons for including Cov/Rec class in scannable ship types,(other than the fact alliances/corps detest zombie Cloakers sat in their system all day)*.
Smile

booh
Posted - 2006.06.30 15:00:00 - [137]
 

Edited by: booh on 30/06/2006 15:02:56
Edited by: booh on 30/06/2006 15:01:46
Originally by: Medici
Edited by: Medici on 30/06/2006 13:23:49
If these ships become scannable for with any probes,regardless of the fact they can still be cloaked and hard to catch,alerts a fleet to their prescence in a system.

......

Finally I don't see how making them longer to scan for helps either as intelligence gathering is can be fairly slow and time consuming anyway,so eventually your going to show up on the scans results and its back to square one.


First point... If i got you right... you are concerned about enemy pilots being spotted in local because of probing?
If this is the case, there is now the local channel, where you can see enemy contacts, no matter if cloacked or not.


Second. Longer scans would be kind of explainable. There was some concerns about how the cloacked ships can be scannable...
I was thinking CCP could say they still have a scan signature, just a small one, which would result in longer scan times. Like scanning for anomalies in space (star trek style) Rolling Eyes

And scanning for cloacked ships would be kind of preventing people to go AFK at safespots for long times... And the longer scanning times would be some kind of protection for active cloackers (active as opposite for AFK).

Velsharoon
Gallente
Arcane Velshologies
Posted - 2006.06.30 17:05:00 - [138]
 

Hehe bye bye mission runners YARRRR!!

Semkhet
Dark Tornado
Ethereal Dawn
Posted - 2006.06.30 20:35:00 - [139]
 

Edited by: Semkhet on 30/06/2006 20:36:29
The point about letting cloaked ships appear on scanner will affect ships using proto and improved cloaks but not those able to fit cloaks II.

For cloaks II, since probes will deliver results affected by variable precision according to the type of probe and luck (randomness), and since the scan will not uncloak them, it will be pointless to attempt to decrease the error margin via successive scans till you get a viable warping target at let's say 15 Km because the CovOps or Recon will simply warp away still cloaked and you won't catch zilch.

However for all the other cloaks who require desactivation prior to warp, it becomes interesting and they will find themselves in a critical situation.

Therefore the new usual method will probably be to only attempt to pinpoint the location if the class of cloaked ship is different than CovOps or Force Recons.

Now if the new interface implemented in the scan dialog doesen't discriminate between roles but is instead based on generic ship classes, let's say by displaying only frigs, elite frigs, cruisers, elite cruisers instead of frigs, af, bombers, covops, cruisers, hacs, force recon, etc... then I can predict a lot of frustration and people will probably not bother to scan for elite frigs and elite cruisers since it could be a covops or force recon that will never get caught.

For the rest of the ships, the procedure will be simple:

Interdictor warps to hunting CovOps or Force Recon and releases a few bubbles around, and rest of the team warps in and brushes the area by flying through the zone with their drones orbiting so each ship can create a spheric uncloakable area according to the various default orbit distance of different types of drones.

Medici
Posted - 2006.06.30 21:05:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: Medici on 30/06/2006 21:07:02
Originally by: booh
Edited by: booh on 30/06/2006 15:02:56
Edited by: booh on 30/06/2006 15:01:46
Originally by: Medici
Edited by: Medici on 30/06/2006 13:23:49
If these ships become scannable for with any probes,regardless of the fact they can still be cloaked and hard to catch,alerts a fleet to their prescence in a system.

......

Finally I don't see how making them longer to scan for helps either as intelligence gathering is can be fairly slow and time consuming anyway,so eventually your going to show up on the scans results and its back to square one.


First point... If i got you right... you are concerned about enemy pilots being spotted in local because of probing?
If this is the case, there is now the local channel, where you can see enemy contacts, no matter if cloacked or not.


Second. Longer scans would be kind of explainable. There was some concerns about how the cloacked ships can be scannable...
I was thinking CCP could say they still have a scan signature, just a small one, which would result in longer scan times. Like scanning for anomalies in space (star trek style) Rolling Eyes

And scanning for cloacked ships would be kind of preventing people to go AFK at safespots for long times... And the longer scanning times would be some kind of protection for active cloackers (active as opposite for AFK).


My concerns are mainly about the Cov/Recon class of ships,and are centered around them showing up with any kind of probe.
I understand your point about local,what i'm trying to get at is that in their roles the fact they don't show up at all on scans is a huge benefit.
If they show up and the class can be confirmed,the target group I would expect to adapt accordingly.
So im not so concerned about them being caught,as to their roles of surveillance and intelligence gathering being impacted,as they are no longer totally invisible,and lose much of their effectiveness,as targets can now at least scan them down to get id.
To respond to your second point,I had also considered a longer scanning time,but I came to the conclusion again that if they show up on scans at all seems to nerf their roles.
But I think your idea that it could be like sig radius,where cov cause a very long time to give result to probe scans and evem then only to the most accurate ones,is probably what will happen.
After reading semkhets post it would seem this is the case :)
Yup I agree i'm left thinking the Devs want to disuade AFK cloaked at safespots,but it would be nice if they can clarify their reasons for making Cov/Recon scannable,tbh if they can't be caught then why even make them show up?

Smile

Bubba Zenetti
Posted - 2006.07.01 18:21:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Originally by: Donna Darko
OK, I've see 0.0 blobs jump through a gate in front of me quite often, and most of them lacked covert ops. My question was adressed to players, I was curious how many of you do it. You might just be the only person I know who only flies covert ops and scans every day. Anyway, faster scanning and specialization is not really what I have a problem with, but the Astrometrics skill change is.


You don't see them? Dude, that's the whole point Laughing

Seriously though. Blobs in 0.0 have coverts out. They're not with the blobs, because they're scouting ahead, but they're there. And if they're any good, you won't see them, even if you're looking for them. And while a lot of them don't bother with probes, many do. Going out without a prober is a drawback, but going out without a covops at all is suicide.


not really, a regular frig can scout. It's likely you can get out of most camps in a frigate if you have a lot of frigate SP's and experience doing it, even if there is an interdictor.

A sensor boosted huginn or lucid inty pilots severely decreases your chance of survival 8) Fortunately, either of these is rareLaughing

Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
Posted - 2006.07.01 23:39:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Donna Darko
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Originally by: Donna Darko
OK, I've see 0.0 blobs [...] and most of them lacked covert ops.


You don't see them? Dude, that's the whole point Laughing

Seriously though. Blobs in 0.0 have coverts out. They're not with the blobs, because they're scouting ahead, but they're there. And if they're any good, you won't see them, even if you're looking for them. And while a lot of them don't bother with probes, many do. Going out without a prober is a drawback, but going out without a covops at all is suicide.


Oh, come on, Joerd... Now you're just insulting my intelligence.


I'm just replying to what you said...

Apply
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2006.07.02 02:07:00 - [143]
 

I dont like the simple scan idea because of
a.)
those, who learnt to use probes effectively will lose their advantage and this is just an "another RL skill removed" thing, which i dont like
b.)
agent runners in below 0.5 will be hunted, busted, etc (there will be whinefest on forums)

I like the simple scan idea because of the quicker scan makes battles more interesting, less safespotted fleets for hours.

The idea of finding cloaked ships is a "LOL. Erm, rahter OMG. Bad.", but the interface is awesome.

Grae Corvidus
Posted - 2006.07.02 02:34:00 - [144]
 

Ok, right upfront I'm very new to Eve so I don't know much about scanning at all.

But regarding the scanning of cloaked ships, why not make it so that it's only really viable when using a combination of probes, similar to the triangulation idea? Balance it so that tho odds of successfully scanning a cloaked ship only come into play from the overlap/stacking of multiple probes... then it would require a more concentrated effort and some skill to pull it off.

Given the limited understanding I have of the issue it seems like a reasonable compromise...

Halkin
Caldari
Locus Evolved
Posted - 2006.07.02 05:25:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Maxlis
Wow, scanning is taking a turn for the awesome. I'll be glad to see this in game :)


I agree, in part.

Scaning for cloaked ships is a bad idea imo, I just dont see why it should be possible. I understand from first hand experience that a cloaked covert can disrupt activity within a system but if you cant find a way to counter in then thats your fault.

How can a covert be a covert if it can be found, I can see multiple inties warping in on cloaked ship spots running around like idiots. As funny as this would be to watch I dont think it should happen, reasons why are elsewhere in this thread.

As for the the scanning improvements, i say gg.

Halkin
Caldari
Locus Evolved
Posted - 2006.07.02 05:27:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Apply
...there will be whinefest on forums...


Very Happy just a normal day then

Kage Getsu
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Posted - 2006.07.02 06:59:00 - [147]
 

This looks awesome.

booh
Posted - 2006.07.02 07:22:00 - [148]
 

Edited by: booh on 02/07/2006 07:22:52
Originally by: Halkin

How can a covert be a covert if it can be found, I can see multiple inties warping in on cloaked ship spots running around like idiots. As funny as this would be to watch I dont think it should happen, reasons why are elsewhere in this thread.


Have you ever tried this? It's not as easy as it sounds and the cloacked ship has very good chances to survive, specialy if it can warp while cloaked.
You must distinguish between ships with Covert Ops Cloacking Device and those with Prototype Cloaking or Improved Cloaking devices. Then it all makes sense imo. Because there is no way you can catch a cloaked ship with COCD if the pilot is not AFK.

Well, BS which cloack deserve to die Cool

Mnengli Noiliffe
Posted - 2006.07.02 12:02:00 - [149]
 

So you warp to your final result, which now has about 150km precision. That means that the cloaked target is anywhere within 150km bubble around you. Now tell me how do you find it, considering that it probably moves all the time. I think that even the cloaked BS has good chances to accelerate and warp when he notices company, provided that it is already aligned.

Also .. if you can affect the other person's scanning result by launching additional scan probes within his probe's radius, that probably means that not only gang members can assist by launching high precision probes, but the prey can interfere with scanning by launching low precision probes .. sound like fun. Need to bring lots of scan probe launchers though.

Medici
Posted - 2006.07.02 12:38:00 - [150]
 

Still have my concerns about Cov/Recon,I really would like to give this some hardcore testing on Sisi,and also see how it plays out on TQ.
I'll take a stab though just for the record,and say that I think it will hamper Cov/Recon stealth.
To be constructive and if you're reading this still Tomb,any chance you could enlighten us and expand on Semkhets post,and tell us just what kind of information a target will get back from using the Recon* probe,for Cov/Recon class ship that's moving constantly,(and not just sat zombie cloaking in 1 spot)?
Smile


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