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Damien Smith
The Insane Tormentors
Posted - 2006.06.28 11:16:00 - [91]
 

With regards to guerilla covops pilots disrupting your operations, the problem isn't that there's no way to locate them, it's that you shouldn't know they're there in the first place. The whole point of a covert pilot is that they're supposed to be unseen, able to move about at will collecting information, that's what they're for.

The only reason you know they even entered your system is because you see them in local, which is a different can of worms entirely.

Nerfing coverts by allowing them to be scanned for will kill them completely. What's the point of a cloaked ship that can't remain hidden?

Dufas
Amarr
freelancers inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.06.28 11:30:00 - [92]
 

Sounds great...long as we dont get screwed with probes that r to big to fit more then say 2 in cargo with no bps so we cant make them in .0 or some other hinderence

fairimear
Gallente
The Sp00Ks
Posted - 2006.06.28 12:21:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: fairimear on 28/06/2006 12:31:21


so tomb you are removind the ability to use a carrier in eve for anything but frontline(suicide work) and pos hugging?

that right no more carriers at ss deligating fighters.
and whats this no more carriers in 0.0 without a pos at all, why you ask?

o thats simple, because you can't cloak em any more to keep em safe from scans at a ss.
the nme now warp to it and becasue you are as slow as a brick there scouts with drone trails WILL fnd it.
and dont even think of trying to warp to another spot if they warp in, your forgetting you line up like a oil tanker.

less not forget the rest of your gang who strike poorly defened targets and then cloak at ss when a uber blob comes.
i mean it's all their fualt the alliance can't fight samll gang on small gang and win so you just hand their blobs a way to hunt down the small raiders and never let them do the work that keep's undeserving aliances from holding space.

heres a idea why dont you fix combat setups using wcs or the never balanced ecm/eccm, or the boring fleet fights of 100v1 ship repeated 100times untill it's over.

SCANNING CLOAKED SHIPS IS THE WORST IDEA IN THE LONG SAD HISTORY OF YOUR BAD IDEAS TOMB AND IT STINK'S OF FAIVOURITISM TOWARD LARGE ALLIANCES

Deakin Frost
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.06.28 12:23:00 - [94]
 

Oh god, I love you guys!

El Yatta
0utbreak
Posted - 2006.06.28 12:33:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 27/06/2006 21:31:30
Originally by: R3dSh1ft
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Will these new Probes be able to find off-plane safes? The ones made with the current Deepspace that just send you 100 AU straight up and such?


Linkage


[...]That have gone too far into space[...] says exactly nothing about my question. The current Deepspace Observer Probes can find them too - as long as you're on the same plane.

I want to know if these can find off-plane safespots too. Essentially, if this works in true 3D or not.


You can already do this with observators, a VERY good grasp of the scanner, and a bit of luck, as well as judicious (not constant) use of the other ranged probes. The good thing is that MOST PEOPLE DONT KNOW IT.

I have to say that the screenshot at the end of the blog is very sexy, and I want it lots. However, I'm concerned that they will take all the fun out of it, all the skill, that some of us have worked hard to acquire (and I acknowledge that I'm not even close to some of the scanning greats I've seen in action, but I can and will bust most spots in a system, including offplane deep-space multi-100 au spots).

I'm especially annoyed that they are removing the triangle of probes - this was the first hurdle that most people fell at when trying to probe, getting the target within a triangle, especially near a warpable object with no others around it (like a gate on the edge of a system). Still, true 3D and integration with the UBER scrolling view/solarsystem/map do make me happy.

D2O LightWater
D00M.
Posted - 2006.06.28 12:36:00 - [96]
 

About time fella

Deakin Frost
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.06.28 12:36:00 - [97]
 

The probe triangle is an urban myth.

Deakin Frost
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.06.28 12:39:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: xplosiv
you pt a carrier at a safe and run ops with cruiser frig and hac's with fighter for backup
you can stop them using the system as a industrial basis for npc/mining cus your carrier is off scan probe angle.

Gee, why don't we just make carriers baseline instead and have proxy warfare instead?

Deakin Frost
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.06.28 12:44:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Monica Foulkes
Does that screenshot mean that all backdrops from Kali and onwards will be the exisiting stars in the EvE galaxy plus a transparent cloud and not just some "suitable" texture image?

Lets hope so. Celestia can render 50000 stars (multipixel) and 300000 redshift plot points (single pixel) while still keeping a good framerate, while EVE would just need to render 5500 of them.

fairimear
Gallente
The Sp00Ks
Posted - 2006.06.28 12:45:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Deakin Frost
Originally by: xplosiv
you pt a carrier at a safe and run ops with cruiser frig and hac's with fighter for backup
you can stop them using the system as a industrial basis for npc/mining cus your carrier is off scan probe angle.

Gee, why don't we just make carriers baseline instead and have proxy warfare instead?


now theres a good idea, maybe some 1 responsible for balancing will look at the reasons why no one wants to put them on the front line.

Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
Posted - 2006.06.28 13:13:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: El Yatta
I'm especially annoyed that they are removing the triangle of probes - this was the first hurdle that most people fell at when trying to probe, getting the target within a triangle, especially near a warpable object with no others around it (like a gate on the edge of a system). Still, true 3D and integration with the UBER scrolling view/solarsystem/map do make me happy.


You saw the bit where you can't drop probes within the scan radius of other probes but that multiple overlapping probes increase accuracy, right? Depending on how the accuracy things are set up, you could find that you'll land out of grid unless you have multiple overlapping probes, requiring the multi-drop approach of the kind exemplified by the triangle, but where you can't just triple-drop probes in the same spot when you're close enough and get a perfect fix. There's slightly more depth to the system as described than is obvious on a first read-through.

Avernus
Gallente
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2006.06.28 14:16:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: MIstress Saki

Ahh the old „ gang up and catch them……“commentary. If it would be so easy. Maybe in your theoretical fantasy world against some stupid nops such “tactics” will be successful.
I the last year we had gain enough experience about what raiders are able to do.
...stuff


I have to respond... I'm sorry, but I have to take pity here, this is just pathetic. I can't believe that you are actually shutting down entire operations in the area due to some inty raiders, it's simply unreal. Then once you aren't actually doing anything, you (in your own words) then embark on a useless hunt.

/Slaps saki with a trout

Oddly enough, I do know what I'm talking about when it comes to defending against raiders. Near 3 years a resident of Querious. We have a history of daily raiders dating back to the Curse Alliance when they used our space as a training grounds.

Here is a 'crazy off the wall idea' Rolling Eyes
Instead of going 'Oh Noes, pirates!' and logging off in order to bore them to death, how about you take some people off their primary carebear duties in the op and instead put them in ships for Guard and Escort duty? I know... it's just crazy... YARRRR!!

PS. FA used to think the blob up or bore them tactic worked as well; it took the loss of their space to learn otherwise.

Azriel Dregg
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.06.28 14:31:00 - [103]
 

I'm sure this has already been suggested somewhere, but any chance of considering adding a new detectable object, let's call it "Ship Signature" for now, that lets you both detect and probe the location where a player was when they logged off?

Currently tactics to log off fleets at a SS in order to perform a logon trap are favored by some, and while increasing timeouts for ships to disappear or introducing a locking penalty after logon are good suggestions -- it would be nice to also include roles for cov ops scouts to detect them.

Probe their logoff position, send a gang with an interdictor and start a camp fire. Or just avoid the system with your escort/etc gang, since there's a high likelyhood of a logon trap when your scout sees 15 ship signatures in a pipe system.

This would force hostile incursions into deep alliance territory to utilize tactics to bring in POS for fleets to logoff at, since the signature would lead you to the place where they warped from when they logged off...

It would also allow defence of regions from gang incursions that simply log off once you get them locked down to a system and go for a few hour break. As preemptive comment for those who say "this will prevent small pirate gangs entering big alliance territory" -- why should you be able to roam around without fear in an alliance space that takes billions per month to secure, by simply login off when things get too hot?

Rewards vs Risks -- roaming gangs would need to use diversions and prepare to take few losses if they enter hostile space, not just press the close button and go for dinner.

CCP TomB

Posted - 2006.06.28 15:51:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: fairimear
so tomb you are removind the ability to use a carrier in eve for anything but frontline(suicide work) and pos hugging?

Carriers are supposed to be capable of frontline combat, have you ever wondered why they get these support bonuses? Making scanning a usable tool for finding things won't get cut off because this ship class ain't in the right state of balance.

R Dan
Infinite Improbability Inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.06.28 16:25:00 - [105]
 

Hey TomB great blog, couple of questions:
is it envisioned that these changes to scanner will start the process of moving towards an 0.0 space that doesnt have a mandetory local chat?
so rather than easily looking at local to see whos about you need to deploy probes? -maybe that have a GFX change when a new ship enters their scan radius?

Would being cloaked lower your chance of being reported by a scan?


I'm sure I've got others but cant think stright atm Cool

fairimear
Gallente
The Sp00Ks
Posted - 2006.06.28 17:19:00 - [106]
 

Edited by: fairimear on 28/06/2006 17:26:58
Originally by: TomB
Originally by: fairimear
so tomb you are removind the ability to use a carrier in eve for anything but frontline(suicide work) and pos hugging?

Carriers are supposed to be capable of frontline combat, have you ever wondered why they get these support bonuses? Making scanning a usable tool for finding things won't get cut off because this ship class ain't in the right state of balance.


should i be exectinga blog on balancing current ships within the next week then?
goodie i can't wait maybe we will get suport cruiser that people will fly to.

or is this just a way to explain off changes that affect ships as they are used now not effect ships as you would like them to be used at some point.
you have not said anything that makes me feel this is not going to tip the balance in 0.0 towards the big undeserving alliances that can't defened their space in any other way than brining a blob 4-5times the size as the hostiles every 3-12 hours then getting bored and going away again.

im still of the opinion this cloaking change only helps alliances who do not deserve space.

Deakin Frost
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.06.28 17:34:00 - [107]
 

You know, you could just use multiple safespots instead and stay aligned to a new one to get the hell out as soon something shows up on overview? Jesus Christ, put some frickin' effort in it. If people are supposed to die against your drones, then you should be vulnerable, too.

Get the hell out!

fairimear
Gallente
The Sp00Ks
Posted - 2006.06.28 18:02:00 - [108]
 

Edited by: fairimear on 28/06/2006 18:05:28
Originally by: Deakin Frost
You know, you could just use multiple safespots instead and stay aligned to a new one to get the hell out as soon something shows up on overview? Jesus Christ, put some frickin' effort in it. If people are supposed to die against your drones, then you should be vulnerable, too.

Get the hell out!



there is just no need to be able to find cloaked ships.
if you had any idea you would be aware you can't make anything die to your fighters well you cloaked becasue you see you can't controll them then.
to use them you have to be uncloaked and then you are vulnerable to normal scanning, thats fair i think.

but why is it fair that some 1 can scan you well you are cloaked and have a covert ops waiting at that safe for when you uncloak to deligate OR to refit a ally ship.

O and btw tomb carriers have the ability to deligate fighters for remote combat, hence they should not always have to be on the front line.

El Yatta
0utbreak
Posted - 2006.06.28 18:36:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Deakin Frost
The probe triangle is an urban myth.


It really really isnt - try some very advanced scanning and you will see. However, as Joerd said - I suppose if to bust harder-to-find ships you have to overlap some probes then thats still a good element of skill to it.

EzraFromBrooklyn
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.06.28 18:52:00 - [110]
 

please do not change the scan probes by that much, at the moment it is easy enought to find someone and actually takes a little bit of skill, making it an art. If you want to make it easier to find NPC and Stationary objects that would be gr8 to encourage exploration but if u make it all about skill points to find ppl in safe spots you will take a niche that is used by ppl who learned the tricks and turn it into entirely skill point dependant.

Noriath
Posted - 2006.06.28 18:55:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: TomB
Carriers are supposed to be capable of frontline combat, have you ever wondered why they get these support bonuses? Making scanning a usable tool for finding things won't get cut off because this ship class ain't in the right state of balance.


That just made my day, I'd love to see capital ships rebalanced to acctually be right up there on the front lines. I'm not entirely sure how it will be done so that they will not incur many more losses then they do right now, but this will be great!

Originally by: Avernus
Here is a 'crazy off the wall idea' Rolling Eyes
Instead of going 'Oh Noes, pirates!' and logging off in order to bore them to death, how about you take some people off their primary carebear duties in the op and instead put them in ships for Guard and Escort duty? I know... it's just crazy... YARRRR!!



So how is that any different from having all the defenders blob up? They still have to stop whatever they are doing and get on guard duty. Besides, the real issue here is not that it's impossible to defend your own from these kinds of punks. I like to refer to them as Darvin's little helpers because they usually only kill the people that aren't paying attention. The real issue is that there is hardly a way to kill a raider who knows when to atack and when not to. If you get defenders and escrorts out you will not even see a good raider within 500km of them, because they know that just by keeping the defenders on the miners they are costing them millions and millions in ratting money.

I have nothing against that per se, those kinds of tactics are perfectly valid, but the risk factor to invaders is just too low, and I don't think even with the new scanning system it will be possible to catch someone who has become very skilled at evasion.


Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
Posted - 2006.06.28 19:08:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: fairimear
there is just no need to be able to find cloaked ships.


Yes there is. Just because it's a problem for the current implementation of carriers doesn't mean it's not a good idea for everything else.

fairimear
Gallente
The Sp00Ks
Posted - 2006.06.28 20:03:00 - [113]
 

Edited by: fairimear on 28/06/2006 20:03:05
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Originally by: fairimear
there is just no need to be able to find cloaked ships.


Yes there is. Just because it's a problem for the current implementation of carriers doesn't mean it's not a good idea for everything else.


COmE ON what way on earth is any non covertops (that can warp off from the safe cloaked any way) that is cloaked harming you.
why should you be able to stalk it waiting for it to decloak at it's safe when all it has done is sit there. it's can't fire at you without decloaking it can't do sod all.

so why is it not plenty being able to scan it when it is decloak when it may be actualy doing something to you other than putting you off mining because it's in system and you can't tell if he is afk or not just waiting for you to go do something like npc hunt.

god dam you don't deserve to be in 0.0 if you can't tactical lure it out and kill it with bait and your brains



Noriath
Posted - 2006.06.28 21:17:00 - [114]
 

Having a cloaked ship in a system is incredibly useful, because it allows you to watch local and thereby see who's moving into and out of the system. So it is hurtiing someone, good information is half the battle in Eve. Acctually more like three fourths the battle.

Also I don't see how it is so horrible if cloaked ships show up on probes. They won't be decloaked by it, so there is no way of even knowing wether your probe got an accurate reading or not, and decloaking ships once you are in the vincinity of them is not really that easy unless we're talking about a huge ship that can't move out of the way and is rather easy to bump into by accident.

Donna Darko
Posted - 2006.06.28 23:56:00 - [115]
 

Oh my god... I want to kiss him, but I want to kill him even more.

What I understand from the blog is that the Recons will be the new scan probes uber users, and there will be MORE skills to learn to use them. OK, I can do with learning the skills necessary for speeding up the scan probes, although, I can't think of any valid reason to introduce these and I'll explain later. But now I have to learn to fly a Recon ship (not too hard for me, maybe a week's time) and buy a 160+ mil ship to be able to do what only the Covert Ops was doing before: scan faster.

What happens to the Covert ops? Why did they have to lose their role as the fastest scanning ship?

I'm going to draw paralels to real life here, but when did you use a B-52 bomber (fatest plane that comes to my limited mind) to do recon work? Or that 260 pounds soldier?

I fail to see the reasoning for "support skills" for scanning, as this is not a skill/module someone uses THAT often in your pilot life. Take gunnery "support skills" (Motion prediction, that sort of skills). You use them, as a fighter, every time you fight. Missile skills, same deal. New drone skills, same. But scanning?

How many times in your life did you use the scanning skills?

And changing Astrometrics' role to find more groups of ships? Come on, pod my character without a clone while you're at it. It took a long time for my low intelligence and memory to learn that...

Why the hell do I have to spend yet more time to relearn a skill I had?

Finding cloaked ships... I hate it, but whatever. Scan, find cloaked ship, bring in the interdictor and launch a sphere. Bye bye covers ops/recon.

Obviously, I love the scan view and the fact that the probes are able to scan in 3D. I also kinda like having to only use 1 probe to find a ship, although that takes away from the fun of scanning.

A couple of more questions:

Will the BPOs for ALL probes be available on the market this time?

Has any of my scanner improvements suggestions been taken into account? (more important, the ability to quickly divide the scan range, a visual indication of where you're scanning in space, probes no longer display on the scanner and have the name of the ship we scanned for appear, rather than some meaningless ID)

When can we test this new system on Sisi?

I was looking forward to this, now I'm no longer sure.

Firefly Fox
Posted - 2006.06.29 02:28:00 - [116]
 

What the heck is wrong with the link? Both in Firefox and Internet Explorer if I click the link it opens to This post, but if I copy the link and paste it into the address bar I get the devblog like Im suppost to.

Alot of links on this site do this. Something to do with the referer maybe? Anyone else having this problem?

IsmaelYU5 Iluvatar
SteelVipers
Ev0ke
Posted - 2006.06.29 03:48:00 - [117]
 

ok im mostly happy with these features
but i foresee a huge problem: the result for finding everyone everywhere will be a ****load of more bm'sShocked

Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
Posted - 2006.06.29 09:19:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Donna Darko
How many times in your life did you use the scanning skills?


More than I can count. All the damn time, in fact. Don't use them much? Don't specialise in them. Some of us are looking forward to being able to get an edge in this area though...

CCP TomB

Posted - 2006.06.29 11:09:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Donna Darko
What happens to the Covert ops? Why did they have to lose their role as the fastest scanning ship?

Woopsie, the name "Recon Launcher" has nothing to do with Recon ships there, it's just called that atm, Covert Ops are still supposed to be equally or even more scan based than Recons. I'll get the name changed, thanks for pointing that out.

Donna Darko
Posted - 2006.06.29 11:25:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: TomB
[[...]Covert Ops are still supposed to be equally or even more scan based than Recons.


You just got a 50% chance increase in me kissing you rather than killing you :) Too bad the rest of the questions didn't get an answer.

Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Don't use them much? Don't specialise in them. Some of us are looking forward to being able to get an edge in this area though...


OK, I've see 0.0 blobs jump through a gate in front of me quite often, and most of them lacked covert ops. My question was adressed to players, I was curious how many of you do it. You might just be the only person I know who only flies covert ops and scans every day. Anyway, faster scanning and specialization is not really what I have a problem with, but the Astrometrics skill change is.


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