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blankseplocked Bloggers #13, TomB's System Scanning
 
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Acerus Malum
Encina Technologies
Posted - 2006.06.27 22:56:00 - [61]
 

For future dev blogs, please continue to include Icelandic colloquialisms for our own cultural illumination. Thanks. Cool

Cpt Ghost
Tenacious Danes
Ka-Tet
Posted - 2006.06.27 22:57:00 - [62]
 

Ohhhh, im so gonna train for probeusage now! I really like the infoVery Happy

Niomi Kunst
Minmatar
Two Brothers Mining Corp.
Posted - 2006.06.27 22:59:00 - [63]
 

What about working in a scanning system that interacts with sovereignty. You could deploy "Scan Modules" at POS's if you have system sovereignty that would allow the same scanning system that probes give you but to anyone in the corporation/alliance. Even requiring the same skills that probes currently need would be wonderful.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.06.27 23:00:00 - [64]
 

Sounds nifty

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2006.06.27 23:01:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Scorpyn
Any plans for utilizing the space between solar systems some time in the (very) distant future?


I can't see that happening, for the simple reason that the space between solar systems simply doesn't exist within the server structure. Eve is really a collection of 5000+ tiny pockets of isolated space, the only connection being gates to teleport you between them, and certain shared services. The best approximation they could really get is to create pockets of extra-solar space. But those would essentially behave like the current solar systems, they'd just have no stars/planets etc, and would have some other in-game excuse for teleporting in and out of them.

xplosiv
Posted - 2006.06.27 23:32:00 - [66]
 

congratulations you have just made gank culture and the superblob and pos wars dominate the universe.

yes system scanning sux's atm, but im starting to wonder if all the dev's are not actualy in super alliances(bob, cough).
why do i say that?
becuase atm super alliances run 0.0
there are 2 ways to combat them, blob to blob them or gurrila raid them.
in case 1 this is mainly between 2 super alliances they aare contesting a system gaianst 1 another and they need to go to safe for 5min.
what do they do? war to the combat operations pos their alliance like any good 1 would have set up in the system.

in case 2 you have a 10man corp maybe vs a 300man active player allaince.
they have taken you little area of 0.0 and you want to fight back.
you can't put a pos up cus they will come bash it the same nighr and you can't meat them on open battle. so what do you do?

you pt a carrier at a safe and run ops with cruiser frig and hac's with fighter for backup
you can stop them using the system as a industrial basis for npc/mining cus your carrier is off scan probe angle.

well welcome to kali. no more of that it's unfair on the alliance who want the space but cba to keep a combat gang capable of containing the smaller hostile ships at a moments notice.

like i said scan probing was naff but this will make 0.0 boring for all but BOB, i mean alliances

Gierling
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.06.27 23:52:00 - [67]
 

Defense does need a bone here, Tomb how about a POS module that interferes with scanning in about a million km radius.

Either hiding items in that radius (by lowering thier signatures massively) or giving false positives to the pos.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.06.28 00:07:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Gierling
Defense does need a bone here,


Why? The current system dosn't do it, and this system is going to make using cloaked ships even more important for scouting as you have no idea otuside scanner range if a target's parked at a POS, frex.

Demangel
Gallente
Posted - 2006.06.28 00:18:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: Demangel on 28/06/2006 00:19:41
To me this "exploration" issue/feature was one of the things I always wanted in EVE, and while I'm happy for any and all improvements to it... I have major issues with the current methodology.

1: To me it seems silly that our ships do not have the ability to perform fairly effective scans without modules or probe ammo. IMHO Every ship should have a built in scanning system which is better or worse dpending on the nature of the ship. some ships should have shorter range scanning capabilities, while others should have longer. If an object is within this "scanning" sphere, the "little" battle happens, and you can warp to whatever it is you find.

The scanning feature should be "useful" to ALL players regardless of race ship choice, or fitting. I put useful in qoutes as a reminder that useful doesn't mean perfect or uber...

2: Not sure if this was ever changed, but last I cared to look, probes are all missile users toys... Sucks to be a non cloaker gallente lover then eh?

3: Probes and or special modules should INCREASE effectiveness of this feature, NOT enable it. For example probes should simply allow you to more easily scan places that arn't close to you. They should not be a requirement to scan effectively. the better the probe, the better it scans, the more specific the probe, the more specific the thing it can detect. Scanning modules should increase your ability to detect hard to detect things, and increase your scanning range.

4: Skills should be in place for people to not only allow the use of the stuff mentioned in point 3, but also to increase the effectiveness of the basic scanner in point 1.

To be blunt, I see this more as just another module we're supposed to go wow over, one I won't get to use much because I don't care to bother with scan probes.

Being able to explore a system, be it for PVP or other purposes should be the right of every player, and every ship... Not a special ability only gained by those with missile slots they don't mind sacrificing for scouting abilities.

Modules and probes again should improve your ability to do what should naturaly be possible for all starships.

As a compromise I suggest reducing the effective scanning range of a ship to something much smaller, and have it be based on the ships design philosophy. The vexor is meant to be a space exploration vessel, as is the navitas... But the tristan is a warship, as is the Thorax. The tristan and thorax might have to put up with a crummy 1-2 AU max range scan sphere... While the Navitas and Vexor might enjoy a 2-3 AU scan sphere by default.

Then introduce a skill which boosts your scan range, and resolution and increment it by % like all other skills do...

To make true scout ships (cloakers etc) still important, make them the end all be all of scouting, with the longest scan ranges, fastest scan times, and most effective resolutions, then enable them (as they are now) to use advanced scanning tools (probes, and possibly other modules) even more effectively.

TBH though any improvement on exploration and scanning is a long overdue gift from above. But I would like one that empowers everyone, not just those who feel like shedding spare SP's into it. If it empowers everyone at a basic level equally, it's far easier to balance.

Anyway seriously, consider what I said, please. I weep at the thought of what a good exploration system could do for the tactical side of EVE, and the adventure aspect of EVE!

fairimear
Gallente
The Sp00Ks
Posted - 2006.06.28 00:40:00 - [70]
 

i think fair is fair and cloaks need to be totaly unerfed now.
balance must be maintaine dbetween the blobers and the anarchists.
to much protection for alliance that can't defened there space so don't deserve it.

Mistrall
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.06.28 00:41:00 - [71]
 

TomB,

Probe strength stacks with other probes if an object is located in both probe radiuses

Inaccuracy is stacked as well with even freakier results, "stacking" a probe with high inaccruacy and another one with low inaccuracy won't give the same results as if the low inaccuracy would have given you


I seem to already obtain the above features

There will be a probe with almost unlimited range, it's not the best but it will be able to find ships that have gone to far into space. And it will be able to work alone, like all probes will.

How will it differ from the current Observator Deep Space one?

Mny thks

Mistrall

Roue
Rush Industries
Posted - 2006.06.28 01:13:00 - [72]
 

WOAH!

In one fell swoop so much became awesome and then it was half ruined. Everything in the blog is great but the following.

CLOAKED SHIPS WILL BE SCANNABLE, IT WON'T UNCLOAK THEM BUT IT WILL BE SCANNABLE.

If that means that you can use the scanner to scan for cloaked ships, and even if that includes probes I still think that is crazy.

Basically the standard operations in any fleet now will be to set scanner to 150km and any cloaked ship signal a warp out. Forever eliminating any possibilithy for warp in tactics. Making covertops now lose half of their use in the game.

I'm sorry but that singular feature there is not a good idea. There is no reason why cloakable ships should be scannable and I'll explain why.

Covert ops ships it's half of their use. The other being probing and that will arguably be better done with recon cruisers leaving them as the faster cloaked solution for setting warp in points.

Beyond that using a cloaking device on any other ship is a valid tactic for avoiding being scanned. It's fair and balanced because not only do you lose a hi slot but you also take a 50% reduction to your locking type penalty. Which is severe enough as is.

I see no reason why cloakable ships should be scannable at all. Make the ability to find those who wish to accept the risk of being found easy, fast. This new system looks great. But if someone takes the penalty of losing a slot and that drastic of a hit to locking speed then they should be able to sit still in a location moving at a crawl and cloak. If you saw where they went you will find them.

Anyone willing to take an entire gank fleet and fit them with cloaks is also willing to realize a gank fleek going up against them could just snipe with 2x the locking speed. Fair enough to me

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2006.06.28 01:45:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: TomB
Originally by: Noriath
So basicly safespotting remains the Uber and anyone who has managed to create an off grid safespot 10 warps out from any point of the system is sill impossible to find and kill?

There will be a probe with almost unlimited range, it's not the best but it will be able to find ships that have gone to far into space. And it will be able to work alone, like all probes will.


50000AU probes?Very Happy

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.06.28 02:05:00 - [74]
 

I'm sorry but I'd like to say to all those complaining about a single attacker shutting down operations in a system -- you're not really thinking about the problem correctly. If someone is buzzing the system, then gang up everyone in the system and wait for them to attack someone. They yell for help in gang chat and everyone else warps in on top of them.

I approve of better scanners, but this was just a ridiculous complaint that showed a complete lack of lateral thinking.

Sir Juri
Caldari
Gangbus
Posted - 2006.06.28 02:20:00 - [75]
 

sweet cant wait for the new scanning system, oh no 2more skills to train Sad oh well still great Very Happy

Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
Posted - 2006.06.28 02:20:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Demangel
Being able to explore a system, be it for PVP or other purposes should be the right of every player, and every ship... Not a special ability only gained by those with missile slots they don't mind sacrificing for scouting abilities.


Probe launchers don't use a missile hardpoint last time I checked.




WRT the main discussion, I'd just like to throw this thought in:

Currently probes are one of the few areas of Eve in which personal skill and knowledge are absolutely crucial. The current system is badly-documented and badly-understood, and it's something of a black art. Further, even when you know how what you're trying to do works in theory, putting it into practice is still a challenge. As a result, I'd say that in many respects it's one of the best bits of Eve.

The current system does need an overhaul, some bits do need to be binned and other bits do need to be made easier. But it would be a huge shame if it stopped being an art and started being a science, because it would I feel take something important out of the game in the process.

Noriath
Posted - 2006.06.28 02:22:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Noriath on 28/06/2006 02:24:53
Originally by: James Duar
I'm sorry but I'd like to say to all those complaining about a single attacker shutting down operations in a system -- you're not really thinking about the problem correctly. If someone is buzzing the system, then gang up everyone in the system and wait for them to attack someone. They yell for help in gang chat and everyone else warps in on top of them.


What in the blazes are you rambling about? If you gang up everyone in the syste and expect them to be ready to warp on top of an enemy with a setup that can acctually counter the kinds of ships that intruders use your operations ARE shut down. You can't expect to win an engagement with the kinds of ships intruders who try to get cheap ganks and disrupt operations use if you just warp your ratting battleships there.

Besides, a smart intruder will never acctually atack anyone as soon as the gang is in the system and he knows he's being hunted. That's the part I am complaining about. You can't leave the system because then they will atack someone, but you can't combat them either because all they have to do in order to waste your time is not show themselves...

Idara
Caldari
Queens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.06.28 02:56:00 - [78]
 

Oh my god...I can't freakin' wait!

Avernus
Gallente
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2006.06.28 03:02:00 - [79]
 

Noriath, I had to look up what alliance you were in, because I'm becoming seriously disturbed by your alliances apparent lack of creativity in the pvp department.... from reading your descriptions of your alliances gang activities, and methods of response, it's like there is a mental block or an inability to cope any time you have to deal with hostiles.

Hours of camping, inability to think outside the box.. I've heard some horror stories concerning your alliances inability to deal with raiders, but this is sort of cementing my thoughts on it. The 'blob', and the will to camp is not the means to survival as an alliance; you can force out smaller opponents from their own space with tactics like that, but they are nearly useless in matters of defence against a near equal sized foe.

Hopefully, when Kali progresses, and constellation sovereignty kicks in and more automatic defenses come into play, you'll be able to hold your own against the small raiders, but based upon your views (if they are widely held) I wouldn't bet on even short term survival were one of the other big 2 to take a shot at you... with or without Kali.

Evolve man! And find some damn FCs who can be creative and aggressive.

Noriath
Posted - 2006.06.28 04:12:00 - [80]
 

Obviously I can't explain the exact circumstances of why we are having so much trouble with people safespotting and logging off in systems we should be able to defend a lot better, but trust me it's not pure incompetence. Wink

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2006.06.28 05:52:00 - [81]
 

Sounds promising, when can we test it?

MIstress Saki
Posted - 2006.06.28 06:45:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Avernus
Noriath, I had to look up what alliance you were in, because I'm becoming seriously disturbed by your alliances apparent lack of creativity in the pvp department.... from reading your descriptions of your alliances gang activities, and methods of response, it's like there is a mental block or an inability to cope any time you have to deal with hostiles.

Hours of camping, inability to think outside the box.. I've heard some horror stories concerning your alliances inability to deal with raiders, but this is sort of cementing my thoughts on it. The 'blob', and the will to camp is not the means to survival as an alliance; you can force out smaller opponents from their own space with tactics like that, but they are nearly useless in matters of defence against a near equal sized foe.

Hopefully, when Kali progresses, and constellation sovereignty kicks in and more automatic defenses come into play, you'll be able to hold your own against the small raiders, but based upon your views (if they are widely held) I wouldn't bet on even short term survival were one of the other big 2 to take a shot at you... with or without Kali.

Evolve man! And find some damn FCs who can be creative and aggressive.


Ahh the old „ gang up and catch them……“commentary. If it would be so easy. Maybe in your theoretical fantasy world against some stupid nops such “tactics” will be successful.
I the last year we had gain enough experience about what raiders are able to do.

Against experience raiders in small ship (mainly Interceptors) you have almost 0% to catch them or do you relay think he don’t know about the “warp to” button?
If raiders appear you must interrupt your current mining operations, you must fly to your POS to change ships and then a useless “hunt” begins which can take hours. As long as the attackers stay in the system you cannot return to normal work.
And what happens when you bring reinforcements? Yes they log out. Nice, isn’t it?

After some boring senseless “hunts” we discovered that the best way is to ignore the raiders and fight back with “boredom”. We log and play another game.

And please don’t call such game play “tactics” it is only insufficient game mechanics (easy savespoting, log out, insufficient (POS) scanning abilities (which will change I hope), local)

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.06.28 06:56:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Rod Blaine on 28/06/2006 07:09:24
A nice blog, and quite promising at that !

One problem though. It's going to be very easy to confuse enemies when they are trying to scan your ship down by hiding in between the derelicts in space.

I mean, faster scanning is all good, but without shiptypes to select and scan for you are going to potentially end up with results for every single left item in your region of space. I think that's going to have a serious impact on how usefull this is going to be in the end.

Edmund Khan
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.06.28 07:39:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Edmund Khan on 28/06/2006 07:42:36
Can we get some type of temporary bookmarks along with these changes?

We're all aware of the current bookmarks situation. It takes a lot of time to add a new one if you already have 10k of them in people and places, so this is not very cool when you're scanning down a system. And besides the timelag issue, you then also have a whole bunch of useless instas in your p&p...

I though of something like flags that only last as long as you're in system. Or as long as your probes are in space. After that they dissapear.
After i saw the devblog system scanning picture i simply had to edit it a bit and here it is:

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
These flags would be ofcourse warpable to and maybe even sharable inside a group. Maybe with some tooltips when hovering above them, with the name and description, visible on overview and in space...

BadIronTree
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.06.28 08:05:00 - [85]
 

are you going to fix recon ships?

so they can fit a Covert Ops Cloaking Device II and a Cynosural Field Generator I at the same time as they sould?

now 50% of the role of the ship is gone :/

recon ships are useless now :(

Grim Vandal
Burn Proof
Posted - 2006.06.28 08:09:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: TomB
Originally by: R3dSh1ft
I would also like to know about the possibility of scanning for a cloaked ship

Cloaked ships will be scanable, but they won't get uncloaked if they are found on the scanner.



omg perfect I really do love you now.

may I suggest the following, cloaked ships should be findable with probes however to really pin point their location you need to use the directional scanner and as soon as you get within 2km it will get decloaked and be ganked Smile.

cloaked alts ftl Cool


Mindlles
Posted - 2006.06.28 08:20:00 - [87]
 

Its sounds good, Some more tweaks and it will be great.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.06.28 09:13:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Rod Blaine
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 28/06/2006 07:09:24
A nice blog, and quite promising at that !

One problem though. It's going to be very easy to confuse enemies when they are trying to scan your ship down by hiding in between the derelicts in space.

I mean, faster scanning is all good, but without shiptypes to select and scan for you are going to potentially end up with results for every single left item in your region of space. I think that's going to have a serious impact on how usefull this is going to be in the end.


Considering the range of these probes, there must be a result filter of some kind, otherwise we do indeed have chaos on our hands.

Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
Posted - 2006.06.28 10:25:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Edmund Khan
I though of something like flags that only last as long as you're in system.


This is a great idea.


@Rod's comment, the obvious solution would be to allow you to filter your scan results using the overview settings. Not only does this allow you to keep the same functionality and reuse an existing set of presets etc, but it also means that you can run multiple filters on the same set of results, so you can do one scan, filter the results for frigs, and then filter it for BS without having to do a rescan. That would be nifty.

Elve Sorrow
Amarr
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.06.28 11:12:00 - [90]
 

One more tiny comment, which might seem unrelated but is rather relevant imho:

Can you make it so that entering a Force Field NEGATES any PvP Timer you are on? When you introduced PvP Timers, reasoning was that if you got yourself in trouble, pay the price:

Put up a POS to log or fit a Cloak. Cloaking is going to be scannable (Which is good), but logging at a POS STILL requires you to stay there for 15 minutes waiting for the Timer to finish. And with scanning being made easier, logging off at a POS while on PvP Timer will mean guaranteed death if the other side is paying attention. (It already is now, but meh)


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