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Kate Foxwood
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2006.06.07 07:36:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Kate Foxwood on 07/06/2006 07:37:11
When Kate Foxwood heard that CBD & Ishukone - a "practical" and a "liberal" corporation in the Caldari state - were both working together with the Amarr to research Slavers, she wasn't surprised.

The nature of mega-corporation rule means oligarchy, which means, in turn, that the few who rule always act on fear or pride. Either its aiding the Amarr slavers (something that might get a Gallente executed) because there's always an advantage needed in an uncertain world, or it's get uber-patriotic and reminisce about taking Caldari Prime, and conveniently ignore how the Caldari colonies that were a matter of dispute were in violation of this thing called "law" and that the Caldari that started hostilities on Caldari Prime killed a number of Gallente out of impatience (see here for more).

To be individualistic like the Gallente, for Kate, is not the worst thing. Yes, it might mean that the Gallente blur the line between populism and tyranny, as the Periclean Foiritan demonstrates through his holding of power. But the Gallente make mistakes from fulfilling their wants. The many desire, and sometimes those desires are actually legitimate. Far wiser for the many wishing to be fed to be the basis of rule, as opposed to the paranoia and fantasies of the few.

Sure, Kate could defect to the Gallente, and live there. But the inhumaneness of the Caldari for her deserves almost the same attention that is given to Minmatar slavery. What goes on with the Minmatar is absolutely unacceptable, but it should be shocking that a number of Caldari, for all their "pride," could care less. Which is worse - to endure slavery, as many Minmatar do, or to not even recognize it as an evil?

Political change in the Caldari State must occur through the corporate sector. The same things that make the Caldari proud: military virtue, cutting edge-weapons, a devotion to the Caldari people - all these must be made manifest in a corporation that is unlike anything the Caldari have ever seen. That corporation should work to foster better ties with the Gallente. That corporation should encourage its employees to take pride in being individuals. That corporation should refrain from unethical practices against anyone, and work to be an ambassador for the best the Caldari have to offer as people, not as warriors or providers of tech.

And so Kate takes her work as CEO of her little corp. very seriously, and is happy to have a Gallente and Minmatar serve as her chief aides. For to lead in the Caldari State is to lead by example, and her example, however small, is there, and making the money and producing the tech that will put it on the radar someday...


Regat Kozovv
Caldari
Alcothology
Posted - 2006.06.07 21:00:00 - [2]
 

Being of Caldari descent myself, I have often found myself at odds with some of the Caldari’s decisions as well. However, issues such as these are rarely clear-cut and simplistic, and the current state of EVE is no exception.

-The Gallente, for all of their high ideals, are not perfect. Their republic system is large and bureaucratic. The people are far removed from their elected representatives. Furthermore, that a nation of billions can only put forth just a few candidates to rule as First Citizen, who are largely there due to their connections and resources, hardly makes for a truly perfect system as the Gallente would like you to believe. Remember that the Caldari were once part of the Gallente nation, and they share the same capitalistic roots as we. They are not ignorant to the power of the ISK.

Also note that their noted sympathy for the plight of the Minmatars is not necessarily out of pity or some higher humanitarian mission. While I’m certain that every Gallente would feel some sort of sympathy for them, to the extent that they would go to fight for them had they not held a large voting block in the Gallente republic seems murky to me. For all of their talk of their moral obligations, catering to the Minmatar is a powerful political weapon in the Gallente system and they are a voting block that cannot be ignored. Had the Gallente been that concerned, they would have declared war on the Amarr long ago. That they have not done so shows that practical concerns trump moral concerns, and this is the situation the Caldari are in.

The Caldari nation was created from the same freedom loving ideals that the Gallente so heavily promote. And as we are all aware, just because a nation says it operates under a Republican system doesn’t mean it necessarily functions as one. The Caldari state found itself a victim of exploitation, trade protectionism, and disrespect. That the Gallente chose to unite the Caldari worlds using force instead of respecting those nation’s right to self-determination shows that their moral principles can be set aside or ignored.
While it can be debated as to whether or not the Gallente and Caldari nations should be doing more to resolve their differences and reestablish relations, it is clear that nether side is currently willing to help each other on matters of trade or security. The Minmatar, while their plight is great, offer nothing were the Caldari to ally with them. They are hardly unified, and are known world-wide for their corruption and criminal activities. They are hardly idea business partners, and if I may be so forward to suggest that these traits may explain as to why even the Amarr were surprised to have gone through their territories so quickly.

This leaves the Amarr. While their ways are hardly justifiable, they have no disagreements or disputes with the Caldari nation. To infuriate them would leave us isolated; something we cannot do. Were the Amarrians to turn their ships against us, I have no doubt the Caldari Navy would eventually turn them back, but at a price. The Minmatar would be in no position to help and you can guarantee the Gallente would not lift a finger.

Our relations with the Amarr is one out of convenience. Yes, we are sometimes forced into deals of unethical nature. But is our greater responsibility to the Minmatar, or to our own citizens? Nations are self-serving; their interests are to their own first, and aliens second. We are no exception. Perhaps there will come a day when we can thumb our noses at the Amarr from on top of our high horse, but until then, we must do what is in the best interests of the state. Our citizens deserve no less.

Kate Foxwood
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2006.06.08 03:54:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Kate Foxwood on 08/06/2006 08:14:49
Edited by: Kate Foxwood on 08/06/2006 04:02:12
Edited by: Kate Foxwood on 08/06/2006 03:57:53
In character response follows.

Regat - Your answer, while detailed, does nothing but justify the status quo. It offers no moral basis for change, and argues that only idealism would constitute a properly moral stance.

Please do not term my analysis "simplistic" when all you can do is apologize for the worst that we Caldari are, and make no appeal to the best. "Nations are self-serving" is a statement of fear; a statement that a nation is a people becoming as opposed to merely being might have brought more sympathy from me.

- Kate

Out of character:

Thank you for a detailed and knowledgeable response. I wish you had linked to examples of Gallente abuse of Caldari, as opposed to alluding to them, and explained the causal chain thoroughly. A large part of me agrees with Kate in sentiment and reason, if not in tone.

I look at the Gallente and the Amarr as the good guys of this game. The argument about the Minmatar being criminal and corrupt isn't quite what excludes the Minmatar, though.


Linzii
Posted - 2006.06.08 10:45:00 - [4]
 

You Caldari and your polatics. You know how a Matari, a Brutor like me deals people that oppose my views? I KILL THEM!! *Linzii pulls a fist full of dogtags out a satchel slung across her shoulder and slams them down hard on the table* This is what becomes of foolish people that stand between me and my goals. Caldari, Amarr, and even Amattar, once proud Minmatar now poisoned by Amarians have died by my hand on my crusade against Amarr Holders. That is how a real human fights for something, not through polatics and rules.

What would anyone know of the plight that Matari slaves suffer unless you have pulled the nearly lifless bodies of slaves from the wreckage of Empire spacial structures? What would anyone know of how these people are treat unless one has lived it for themselves? I know of these travestries because I have seen them.... I have lived them!

My views are clear and unwavering. I ask for not pity and I welcome anyone to come between me and the freedom of my people. If you fight with me, fight not with mere words, fight with the technology that we have so loving build to bring this fight the cosmos. Fight with weapons of old or weapons of new but do not stop at words. Fight for what what truly matters, because under all the racial markings and color of skin we are all afterall.... Human.

Regat Kozovv
Caldari
Alcothology
Posted - 2006.06.08 17:18:00 - [5]
 

Kate,
Thank you for your quick reply. However, I must disagree with you. The status quo is exactly what I am justifying, you are correct on that.
Morals are hardly clear cut however. Is it morally correct to take a stand against injustice and tyranny at the expense of the safety of one’s own people? Or is it more correct to turn a blind-eye towards those who openly inflict pain on others in order to safeguard one’s own nation? There are strong arguments on both sides. Neither choice is without its pitfalls nor its dangers; to neglect these would be folly.
I of course, support the latter argument, that as intolerable to one’s ideals as it may seem, we must play along with the Amarr for time. Time for what one may ask? Time until Caldari power eclipses that of the Amarr, or we put aside our difference with the Gallente to challenge the Amarr influence. (See below) Do not believe for a minute that the Caldari state justifies Amarr slavery or its conquests. However, we must not isolate our state as we currently have no other favorable allies. (see my previous post) To act in the interests of one’s own citizens is the supreme responsibility of a government, and in this the Caldari State does not fail. If we are to believe the concepts of utilitarian ethics, that the outcome ultimately decides the morality of an action, then the Caldari state acts ethically when it comes to the wellbeing of her citizens. To me, this is not an evil embedded in our society as you would suggest, but truly does show the good intent of our leaders and our representatives that we would place our own before all others. Just as a mother would protect her child above all else, so must we ensure our own survival before we concern ourselves with others. To act different would result in the destruction of both.


Notes: (OOC)
Kate,
Please see your link regarding the start of the Gallente-Caldari war. I draw from that mainly regarding Gallente interference and oppression. Notably,
-The demand that the Caldari worlds submit to Gallente jurisdiction without so much as a vote.
(The state of Texas voted to join the Union after it was settled, which was later approved by Congress. It was not forcibly made part of the U.S.
-The Gallente blockade precipitated the violence on Caldari Prime
(While it was unfortunate that the Caldari populace (which was in the large majority) felt the need to take their frustration upon ordinary Gallente citizens, it is important to note that a blockade is considered an act of war itself. See “The Cuban Missile Crisis” for an example of how dangerous this is, as the Kennedy administration wrestled with this problem, and ultimately decided to call it a “quarantine”, a dangerous gamble as far as international law was concerned)

While I would like to believe that there is no straight “good and evil” factions in this game, I hardly see how one would justify the Amarr Empire as “good”. For this, I recommend reading the excellent EVE novella “Theodicy” located under “Back-story”. Truly it would be hard to justify their actions after the examples presented henceforth.

I honestly fear that the EVE world is dividing into two camps: The Gallente and the Minmatar on one end, and the Amarr and Caldari on the other. A check on the standings of these four nations reflects this.

I was torn as to whether or not I should use real-world examples to justify my points as I did earlier, but I believe that real-world influences heavily shape how we perceive the empires, and to an extent, how they were drawn up in the first place. While I view the Amarr and Minmatar as simplistic concepts (tribal-structured, rich cultured, but technologically inferior race is conquered by an advanced, arrogant, empire) The Gallente and Caldari nations to an extent reflect the same concerns as many people do in the modern age:
(continued)

Regat Kozovv
Caldari
Alcothology
Posted - 2006.06.08 17:18:00 - [6]
 

-The Gallente Democracy, while ideal in concept, suffers from views that money corrupts, the people are far too removed from the democratic apparatus, and that elected officials are far to concerned with securing their elected offices than representing their constituency.

-The Caldari Capitalist system, arguably the ideal economic system, is portrayed as unethical, unfeeling, and indifferent towards the concerns of people, and that the pursuit of wealth is held above all morals and ethics.

Were I to so invite, I’m sure a very hearty debate on these last two points could be made and I could make a fairly safe bet as to where the conversation would lead. My concern is that the attributes of these two nations, most notably the Caldari, are taken too negatively. Even in the real-world, large corporations are seen as greedy, evil organizations, with many of the traits I listed above. I feel that most of that concern is unwarranted. (Not all, but most.) I would like to recommend Jagdish Bhagwati’s “In Defense of Globalization” as a critical look as to why those views prevail, how they come about, why some of those concerns are warranted, and why they are largely incorrect.

I ultimately believe that the Caldari state can be a force for good, and that given the chance, would break it’s ties with the Amarr state were they not necessary. In this, I hold some optimism, since CCP has indicated that it is the player base that will decide how the upcoming conflicts will play out. Hopefully we will be granted the freedom to help decide the courses of these Empires.

On that last point, I’d like to elaborate a bit on the Caldari position. I believe as I have stated before, that the current relations with the Amarr are born out of necessity and not out of a mutual understanding or relationship. These two societies are not alike in governance or economics, and share no common ideals.
It should be notable that among all of the races in EVE, it’s the Gallente and Caldari nations that share the most common bonds. Both have free-market systems, and both have some form of democratic representation (The Gallente system is obvious, in a large corporation, CEOs are elected by a Board, who’s members are voted in by shareholders. While the immediate argument may be to say that this is not a fair method of representation; it is much more than one would have than if they lived in the Amarr Empire) The Caldari and Gallente nations share the same heritage and background. In addition, many private Caldari and Gallente pod-pilots fly alongside one another and frequently perform services for each others states.
I liken Caldari and Gallente relations to that of the United States and the British Empire after the War of 1812 but before WWI. While incidents such as the burning of D.C. were fresh in people’s minds, the cultural commonalities between these two nations helped keep them from drifting two far apart, and trade between the two was still lucrative, keeping relations from falling apart altogether. (Note that there are Caldari companies operating in Gallente space and vice versa) With WWI and WWII, leaders from both nations took these opportunities to cement their bonds and eliminate the last remnants of their disputes, (most notably in WWI, in which a minority, but nonetheless large block of U.S. citizens did not see any particular need to assist Britain against Germany than they did a need to assist Germany. This obviously, did not last)

(continued)

Regat Kozovv
Caldari
Alcothology
Posted - 2006.06.08 17:19:00 - [7]
 

In conclusion, I believe ultimately it will be up to the player base to ensure that the relations between the Gallente and Caldari are repaired. The Amarr will certainly look to thwart this, as they already respect the Gallente as a formidable force, and undoubtedly do their part in maintain relations with the Caldari should they suddenly feel closer to their Gallente brethren. The Amarr would then possibly feel quite isolated themselves, and in real danger should the Gallente shore up their relations with the Caldari, and decide to go on the offensive against the Amarr with the assistance of the free Minmatar.

Cletus Graeme
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.06.09 12:20:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 09/06/2006 12:35:42

Wow - cool thread - athough this is an RP thread so maybe it should be in that section ?

I totally understand Kate's frustration at the current situation & also her disgust at some of our own actions.

I'm a liberal myself (check the EVE chronicles for more info about the 3 Caldari corp blocks) but find it amazing that Ishukone are involved in such double dealing. I also highly suspect they stole the Merlin BPO to make the Harpy & may have used it as a base for their Moa/Eagle designs (Lai-Dai made the excellent Merlin then mysteriously switched to manufacturing missile boats which they have also excelled at)

Anyway, I'm getting side-tracked...

While my heart sympathises with the patriots (I'm Caldari first & a liberal second) another war with the Gallente will solve nothing.

The patriots clamour for the retake of Caldari-Prime but that would be just the start. Even if we accomplished such a feat our return to the Gallente home system would force them to mobilise & we would enter a conflict which would decimate both factions - although I'd expect the Gallente to be left standing at the end of it just because of their sheer size.

I don't believe another war will get us Caldari-Prime back. It must be regained through improved diplomatic/economic links. The Gallente have already recognised our sovreignty. They need to be convinced that it is is in their best interests to have us a close allies & trading partners instead of enemies.

As has been pointed out, Caldari & Gallente share many common ideals but this is often overlooked because of the harsh memories of the war which are still fresh in peoples' minds.

However, the split was inevitable exactly because of those shared ideals because both the Gaylente & the Caldari are fiercely independent & uncompromising as individuals.

Unlike the Intaki who decided to be completely absorbed into the Federation (& yet have still amazingly had a huge positive impact despite this) the Caldari Deteis & Civire are too restless & driven to accept assimilation. It was a case of too many roosters & it is a good thing that some of them flew the coop !

To me, being a liberal means being progressive & also being practical. There are 2 ways to end the Caldari-Gallente mistrust : Elimination of one of these factions from the game via a long, expensive & protracted war (which we are likely to lose in the long run) OR an alliance that puts behind us the savage recent history of our differences & accepts that a common future would be far more mutually beneficial.

With Kali on the horizon time is running out. The patriots on both sides are clamouring for revenge & a declaration of war & while relations between the factions are at an all time high there is a lot of espionage & subterfuge still going on as neither side really trusts the other. The missions (Illegal Activity on the Caldari side) also bear this out.

The Gallente are on the brink of electing a new leader who could turn out to be a strong patriot himself with much anti-Caldari sentiment.
If that happens, it may already too late & war will come whatever we do. It if does, I will stand with my Caldari brothers until the bitter end, come what may. But until then I will seek to persuade, cajole & goad the more warlike among them from pursuing such a road as I can foresee it leading to only one conclusion......our eventual destruction.



Cletus Graeme
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.06.09 12:29:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 09/06/2006 12:34:11

As for the Amarr, much depends on who is in power. A benevolent emperor could be a massive force for good in the empire but he/she would still be ruling an old, established hierarchy, who will not be swift to accept change.

A united Caldari-Gallente front would force the Amarrians to wake up to the fact they aren't the only big power in empire space. They would have to act more diplomatically & tread more carefully. However, as long as the smaller factions remain divided they are free to expand aggressively and unopposed.

If that continues much longer then the Caldari will be forced to put any moral objections aside and make our peace with them to ensure our own continued survival. They don't like us but they do respect us & they have no reason to fear us. Despite our differences that makes us natural allies.

Indeed, if the Caldari were not so self-obsessed with the injustices of our own violent past our Amarrian connections could even exert a substantial positive influence on the empire. If we played our cards right as astute diplomats we could even be bridge builders to the Gallente for them.

Our potential is great because of our relatively unique position, small (unthreatening) size & strong defensive capabilities (which mean we are not pushovers). Whether we use this situational advantage properly remains to be seen.........


Zan Maruke
1st Khanid Rifles
Posted - 2006.06.12 16:52:00 - [10]
 

You underestimate the ambition and capabilities of your State, friend. When The Kingdom defeated The Empire to secure the righteous rule of Khanid II, praise God, it was through the auspices of the Caldari State that we had superior technologies in hand. Between them and the legendary valor of my people the outcome could hardly be in doubt.

Certain among the Khanid cyberknight peerage have wondered aloud what we must have given up in exchange for our ebon fleet? Few if any of the Kingdom's corporations are without Caldari advisors and technicians at the least and in many case full partnerships. While we are far more mercantile and practical in most matters than our cousins in The Amarrian Empire much of our trade flows through our shared border with The State. In many ways, it could be said, that even in this regard we may be too dependant on our allies.

For now there's little to be done about it and those Caldari entities involved in our affairs are inextricably intertwined and, thus far, have acquitted themselves honorably enough in their dealings. However it cannot be denied that The Empire is a larger potential market for Caldari profit taking. This, more than fear of self-preservation, is surely what drives the seeming convergence of interests of late. If The Kingdom alone could defeat The Empire then, surely, what would The State have to fear from The Empire with The Kingdom as loyal, centuries old, allies?

No, profit and exploitation drive the State and Empire together. And we, The Khanid, look on as the matchmakers, witting, willing, or otherwise.

Regat Kozovv
Caldari
Alcothology
Posted - 2006.06.12 19:25:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Zan Maruke
You underestimate the ambition and capabilities of your State, friend. When The Kingdom defeated The Empire to secure the righteous rule of Khanid II, praise God, it was through the auspices of the Caldari State that we had superior technologies in hand. Between them and the legendary valor of my people the outcome could hardly be in doubt.

Certain among the Khanid cyberknight peerage have wondered aloud what we must have given up in exchange for our ebon fleet? Few if any of the Kingdom's corporations are without Caldari advisors and technicians at the least and in many case full partnerships. While we are far more mercantile and practical in most matters than our cousins in The Amarrian Empire much of our trade flows through our shared border with The State. In many ways, it could be said, that even in this regard we may be too dependant on our allies.

For now there's little to be done about it and those Caldari entities involved in our affairs are inextricably intertwined and, thus far, have acquitted themselves honorably enough in their dealings. However it cannot be denied that The Empire is a larger potential market for Caldari profit taking. This, more than fear of self-preservation, is surely what drives the seeming convergence of interests of late. If The Kingdom alone could defeat The Empire then, surely, what would The State have to fear from The Empire with The Kingdom as loyal, centuries old, allies?

No, profit and exploitation drive the State and Empire together. And we, The Khanid, look on as the matchmakers, witting, willing, or otherwise.


Some astute observations Mr. Maruke. I have no doubt that you are correct in some of your conclusions; that it is profit that is part of the reason they have come together.
Power is not measured entirely in terms of amounts of battleships; these things cost money. A strong economy is essential towards funding a strong military in addition to providing the state with clout of it's own. Trade can be a powerful tool of it's own. In this, the Caldari would not want to be isolated anymore than it would want to find itself isolated militarlly.

I would guess that the Caldari State has gained a potent diplomatic weapon in supporting the Khanid. While I may no guesses as to how the corporations feel about your people's position with respect to the Empire, the State no doubt recgonizes that in the Khanid, it possesses a stick in which to meddle with Amarrian affairs. Should the Caldari not get what they want, or have reservations about an Amarrian course of action, they need mearly increase their support to the Khanid. Your people, commanding the respect of the Empire accordingly, can then cause enough trouble with the Empire to make them consider aquesing to Caldari requests. Note that the Khanid military need not engage in operations for this to work, a deal made public between the Caldari and Khanid may be all that's required. On the other end, the Amarr may make favorable overtones to the Caldari, requesting that they stay out of Amarrian affairs in return. (I'm certain that the Empire sees this as an internal matter, rather than admit that the Khanid is independent, and therefor, defied the will of the Emperor.)

Should the Khanid and the Empire make up and sign a piece, the Caldari will have lost a potent bargning chip.

Zan Maruke
1st Khanid Rifles
Posted - 2006.06.13 13:45:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Zan Maruke on 13/06/2006 13:46:28


I would be wary about describing the Kingdom of our lord Khanid II as merely a bargaining chip in the company of my less disciplined bretheren. You might arrive uncomfortably close to a demonstration of a cyberknight's own technological innovations and personal prowess.

And, in truth, is there a living man in all the cluster who has achieved so much as our King? While there is certain to be political skullduggery all about us make no mistake that Khanid is in the thick of it and, God willing, shall continue coming out on top. I believe it is no act of act of the restive so-called unionists amongst our people that has brought Empire and Kingdom closer together. The wise amongst our kind nod with approval at the strategy therein even as the youth eyes the gathering storm with anticipation.

Akikio Lankinen
Caldari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2006.06.15 15:55:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Akikio Lankinen on 18/06/2006 12:45:12
Edited by: Akikio Lankinen on 15/06/2006 15:56:41
Greetings Citizens...and others. I do agree on the matter of slavery being an evil but my argument is not moral but one of politics/economics. I belive that the best way to organize society, taking in to count the complexity and weakness of human nature, is a pure capitalistic system, ruled by the basics of a free market down to individual level. Slavery in such a system is destructive and unbalances the whole system. Even more, slavery is theft of property and capital! Everyone should have the equal right to step out on the market and aim for profit or at the least be valued by the free market forces. Because the only commodity we all really have from start is our labour, taking that from us is the ultimate theft. Stealing my ships, hacking into and draining my bank accounts or looting my hangars would all be unpleasant events and would take some effort to recover from but compared to being robbed of the basic rights of property and control of my own labour would be the ultimate crime and in a society built on the strictest free market principles it would even be called murder! *Takes a deep breath* ...Hrm, now what should this lead to in practise? In business dealings everything that in someway is a product of slave labour should be considered as stolen goods as a start. From this perspective at the slavery issue it is possible to fight slavery and be a loyal citizen of the State.



 

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