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blankseplocked Bloggers #5, some words from Tuxford
 
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Lisa Payne
Posted - 2006.06.05 21:17:00 - [31]
 

Tux,

I strongly suggest you get us to try out all these great idea's on the test server..
why not organize some sheduled test events where we come down to try out different scenario's , loadz of ppl have good idea's here, and i would rather help you guys test out idea's than talk about it on the forums :)

Scorpyn
Caldari
Infinitus Odium
Posted - 2006.06.05 21:31:00 - [32]
 

Seems difficult... extremely difficult... I'd probably not dare to mess with most of that myself...

Does this mean that there will be more missile skills soon? Any chance you could release them within 5 days or so in that case?

Kurren
The Legion.
Requiem-Aeternam
Posted - 2006.06.05 21:55:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Scorpyn
Seems difficult... extremely difficult... I'd probably not dare to mess with most of that myself...

Does this mean that there will be more missile skills soon? Any chance you could release them within 5 days or so in that case?
Ech, just what missiles need... more skills...

Amial Starkiel
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.06.05 21:56:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Eli Bredeux
Edited by: Eli Bredeux on 05/06/2006 20:46:55
Well Tux - FWIW, boosting resistances/adding protection and/or reducing damage is not the way to make EVE combat longer or better IMO. Boosting resists or adding damage capacity can only lead to a situation where smaller ships are marginalized.

EVE combat is basically binary. You either kill the ship or you don't. Which means you either have enough DPS to overwhelm the target or you don't. [...]


I think there are some really nice ideas in this post by Eli.

I like the idea of letting combat be less of a DPS challenge. As a frigatte pilot I like the notion of frigattes harassing a battleship, crippling some of its systems in quick raids before getting out. To avoid systems becoming too vulnerable, the chance of crippling one could be diminishing rapidly once one or more is taken out. Hell, maybe it would not be permanently destroyed, but merely crippled for a few minutes. Your skill "crew relations" would decrease the repair time ... Wink

For a tactical aspect, adjusting damage on a ship depending on whether it's hit from its flanks or back is an interesting idea. Not suitable for small ships, but for big slow ones it would in one go make position on the battlefield an important consideration. Overall, letting armour and shields be direction-dependent would be very cool (turn your weak side away from the enemy), but probably a hassle to implement (and drones would be much more powerful).

/Amial

Kurren
The Legion.
Requiem-Aeternam
Posted - 2006.06.05 22:24:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Amial Starkiel
I like the idea of letting combat be less of a DPS challenge. As a frigatte pilot I like the notion of frigattes harassing a battleship, crippling some of its systems in quick raids before getting out. To avoid systems becoming too vulnerable, the chance of crippling one could be diminishing rapidly once one or more is taken out. Hell, maybe it would not be permanently destroyed, but merely crippled for a few minutes.
Thus effectively ruining any need or desire to train up to a battleship. If a frigate can come in and ruin me for a fight, why even waste my 90mil on the ship... let alone the skill to fly it? I'd rather just fly a friggate into battle... which would effectively null out any "hp boosts" given because I'm flying a friggate.

Roue
Rush Industries
Posted - 2006.06.05 22:35:00 - [36]
 

Tux.. in response to your last part.

Why not this simple fix.

Sensor booster becomes 2 modules

Sensor Range Enhancer
50% boost to range 50% reduction to scan resolution

Sensor Precision Enhancer
50% boost to scan resolution. 50% reduction to range

Weapons mods become 2 modules as well same principle

Mod 1
Rof+ dam-
Mod 2
Dam- Rof+

this way if you want to snipe you have to be vulnerable for a short while on all your locking. Or if you want to be super fast to lock that's fine but you will be easily dampened or even basically unable to engage at much range.

And also that would allow meaningful ship dynamics.

fast lock mid range alpha strikes. Long range slow lock obliterators that need tacklers to hold the target long enough to deliver the snipe

speaking of. wouldn't that helpw ith the whole snipe gank?

And while you're at it. Give us the single most useful module. the fighter warp drive that let's them follow you in warp. That single module would revolutionize this game. Hell give it to interdictors only if you want but it would be best to give close range engagers as much of a fear inducing threat as snipe/gankers.

The gank sniper you fear on their warp in. The close range w/pursuit warp module you fear on your warp out.

Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
Posted - 2006.06.05 22:49:00 - [37]
 

Thinking about combat length, in many respects it's hard to see why you'd want to make it longer, besides the aforementioned reinforcements issue. As it stands and in my experience, remarkably little of the outcome of combat has to do with what happens after someone opens fire anyway: given that maneuvers play a limited role during an actual engagement, most of the decisions to be made are just module activations and timings thereof. I don't see that there's any real time pressure here currently - outside of fleet situations (where this kind of discussion is largely academic as focus fire is always going to win short of a rewrite to alter fleet combat dynamics, rather than a simple combat length tweak), there are very few fights where you don't have time to switch things on. What's the objective of longer combat? To make things more tactically diverse? We've already got the time for that in most cases, we just don't have the tools - and if we had the tools, we wouldn't need more time anyway.

As I've experienced it at least, most of what determines the outcome of combat is already resolved at the point where someone opens fire. In this respect, altering the length of the fight in most cases merely draws out the inevitable and pre-determined outcome. This doesn't of course hold if you don't alter everything equally, but in that case you're not changing the length of fight but rather altering fundamental combat dynamics and relations, which is I'd suggest a whole different ballgame.


That said, if you do want to just make everything take longer, how about just halving all recharge times and doubling all module activation lengths? Bam - everything happens at half speed.

Fierce Deity
Gallente
Hera Star
Empire Research
Posted - 2006.06.05 23:19:00 - [38]
 

tux my shirt is broken, fix it goddmammit!!!!

Twisted Evil

Opai McTwist
Amarr
Domination.
Force Of Evil
Posted - 2006.06.05 23:32:00 - [39]
 

I like the idea of making combat occur at shorter ranges, annnnnd I like the idea of increasing HPs.

Shorter ranges = More fun to watch combat, and more hours of enjoyment. Am I the only one who read this as a reduction in overall combat ranges, as opposed to just reducing the "Optimal Range" stat for all items that have an optimal range? If I did this in error, I apologize.

More HP = more time to enjoy combat at close range. To those arguments saying more HP = marginalized frigates... I think you're reaching on this. If the increase is applies to all ships, then, it stnads to reason that even though the BS will be able to last longer against a frigate, or a swarm of frigates, the frigate with the increased HP also, theorhetically has more staying power as well.

Tux, I'll be more than happy to coduct Khanid Kingdom live fire trials with all the new Amarr hardware. Gimme that Tier 2 BC and I will run fedo-wild with it :D

Imode
Celestial Apocalypse
The Requiem
Posted - 2006.06.05 23:33:00 - [40]
 

subsystem: warp drive engine

Yes please.

ParMizaN
Body Count Inc.
The Requiem
Posted - 2006.06.05 23:54:00 - [41]
 

Sounds very good so far Very Happy

Manus Ghostface
Caldari
Oberon Incorporated
Prime Orbital Systems
Posted - 2006.06.05 23:57:00 - [42]
 

Hmm, as soon as I read assault missiles I had sudden images of Starfire's CAMS (Close Assault missiles). I wonder if anyone at CCP played Starfire, I see many similar themes, but drawing from common themese will often result in that.

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.06.06 00:10:00 - [43]
 


Everything there looks fine IMO... but this really cought my eye...

Quote:
Another rather large project we are looking into is the lowering the optimal range of weapons to bring the fight closer. I read a rather interesting suggestion on the forums about "nerfing" range so that small weapons have the range they have today, medium weapons have 1.5x the range of small weapons and large weapons 2x the range of small weapons. This is something we're willing to look into and there are some good reason for doing this but its not an easy task.


Tux, Please have my children.

I typically fight at less than 15km range. Closer range combat is something I've wanted for a LONG time.

You're my hero ♥


Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.06.06 00:17:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Verone

Everything there looks fine IMO... but this really cought my eye...

Quote:
Another rather large project we are looking into is the lowering the optimal range of weapons to bring the fight closer. I read a rather interesting suggestion on the forums about "nerfing" range so that small weapons have the range they have today, medium weapons have 1.5x the range of small weapons and large weapons 2x the range of small weapons. This is something we're willing to look into and there are some good reason for doing this but its not an easy task.


Tux, Please have my children.

I typically fight at less than 15km range. Closer range combat is something I've wanted for a LONG time.

You're my hero ♥




Closer Combat + Lag = Many unhappy customers ugh


I prefer to stay at 100km in a fight, Reducing range so much, well it would make most longrange ships so inferior to closerange ships Sad

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.06.06 00:30:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Maya Rkell on 06/06/2006 00:30:39
Replied in ships and modules. But um... Sad

darkmancer
Posted - 2006.06.06 00:34:00 - [46]
 

Surely the answer with the cerb problem would be to change the flight time bonus to a explosin velocity bonus? Standard heavies would do a healthy 120km at full skill, and it would fit in with the reduced range theme.

Pepperami
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2006.06.06 00:50:00 - [47]
 

Shorten combat ranges? Do this and I'll hump your leg (in an affectionate way!)

Justin Cody
Caldari
T.A.L.O.N. Company
B4D W01F
Posted - 2006.06.06 01:05:00 - [48]
 

I enjoy fighting up close and in the face of the enemy, but I also like to use many of the principles of warfare in order to force my enemy to fight on my terms. One of those is dictating the range of combat. CCP please do not force us to fight in at close ranges if we decide that our choice of tactics is to fight at long ranges. Freedom is what I love about this game and yes its nice to be up close to see the pretty ships flying about in their deadly ballet, but there is a reason for long range (sniper/ECM) combat as part of support roles.

I beg of you not to force combat to become closer but to let us choose how we fight. If I want to be a warp core stabilizing sniper then I should be allowed to, if I want to be a hardcore inyourface PvPer then I should be able to choose to.


james126
Posted - 2006.06.06 01:27:00 - [49]
 

i think current fight lengths are fine, prolonging them only allows backup to get there befor you kill your oponent, thus gurrila tacktics are less effective. i dislike this, it was hit hard enough in the last HP boost.

ranges are good, if you want short range, short range ship + co-ops = all battles close range. shortening ranges will only stop peaple using artillary, unless the rest of there stats get compensated. why not just make a mid-range gun.

alpha strike is good, could we please keap it, mabey -25% ROF, +25% dammagemod. (or give us a long range scrambler).


Zyrtan Keb'Lektar
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Associates
Posted - 2006.06.06 01:56:00 - [50]
 

Dont change the range, and leave the poor artys alone for once. let minmatars have something that they can call their own

Fedaykin Naib
Celestial Apocalypse
The Requiem
Posted - 2006.06.06 04:52:00 - [51]
 

Who ever thought of lowering optimal range should be dragged out into the middle of the road and shot.

Torm Ilmater
No Quarter.
Vae Victis.
Posted - 2006.06.06 06:20:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: james126

ranges are good, if you want short range, short range ship + co-ops = all battles close range.


Originally by: Justin Cody
I enjoy fighting up close and in the face of the enemy, but I also like to use many of the principles of warfare in order to force my enemy to fight on my terms. One of those is dictating the range of combat. CCP please do not force us to fight in at close ranges if we decide that our choice of tactics is to fight at long ranges. Freedom is what I love about this game and yes its nice to be up close to see the pretty ships flying about in their deadly ballet, but there is a reason for long range (sniper/ECM) combat as part of support roles.

I beg of you not to force combat to become closer but to let us choose how we fight. If I want to be a warp core stabilizing sniper then I should be allowed to, if I want to be a hardcore inyourface PvPer then I should be able to choose to.





Exactly my sentiments.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.06.06 07:25:00 - [53]
 


Somebody explain the advantages of forcing people to be close to eachother in combat please.

babylonstew
Caldari
Caldari Scouting and Intel Group
Posted - 2006.06.06 08:18:00 - [54]
 

nerfing range = bad, i like the option of sitting wayyyyy over there, or getting in your face.
and, when do we get to play with the new ships, please, please, please make it sooner (tm) then soon(tm)

So'Kar
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2006.06.06 09:20:00 - [55]
 

Quote:
We still want to prolong combat. There are number of ways to do that like boosting resistance, lowering damage of weapons or simply by adding hitpoints. Boosting resistance and lowering damage basically does the same thing. It not only increases the time people would live but it also increase what they can tank. The difference is that if we lower damage too much we might end up with a situation where 1 vs. 1 battleship fight is simply unwinnable for either side if they have a decent tank, which isn't really what what we want. Boosting hitpoints is a bit better method to achieve this. There are however complications. This would affect ships with small capacitor more than the ones with large capacitor so we might actually increase capacitor size and the recharge time. So they would still be able to achieve the same cap/sec but would have more cap to begin with. Also, Artillery damage output needs to be looked at if the alpha strike has less impact in a fight.

You aint going to fix anything with increase of armor/shield or resist just make 1v1 slight more about dps. 1v1 last long enough and it's focus fire thats problem and some small boost to hit points isnt going to change that.

Quote:
Another rather large project we are looking into is the lowering the optimal range of weapons to bring the fight closer. I read a rather interesting suggestion on the forums about "nerfing" range so that small weapons have the range they have today, medium weapons have 1.5x the range of small weapons and large weapons 2x the range of small weapons. This is something we're willing to look into and there are some good reason for doing this but its not an easy task.


It's fine the way it is. Someone from 100km+ isnt going to scramble you.

Denrace
Amarr
PURE Legion
Pure.
Posted - 2006.06.06 09:27:00 - [56]
 

Sounds good guys!

As for the Tier 3 Battleships and Tier 2 Battlecruisers, please please PLEASE dont give the Gallente one some uber drone bonus so that it can beat anyone 1v1, has insane DPS, T2 drones which do all dmg types for no penalty and blah blah...etc

A Caldari rail BS would be sweet, but please....at least ONE damage bonus is needed, or it will simply suck.

Minnie Tier 3 BS would be cool if it was fast as hell. 280m/s base speed on a BS? Yes please.

Amarr BS would be nice with NO laser cap use bonus, this is totally wasted.... I want a ROF bonus and an ARMOUR HP bonus. Because im amarr, and i like fast lasers and thick armor YARRRR!!

My 2 cents

Den

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.06.06 09:36:00 - [57]
 

Yes, please give the Gallente Tier 2 BC an uber drone bonus. Well, not really. 10% damage/HP per level as per Vexor/Domi will suffice.

A BC w/ a drone and damp bonus would be neat :) +10% to drone damage/hp and +5% to damp effectiveness and cap use per level?

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.06.06 10:13:00 - [58]
 

And no info about the 2 BCs i realy care about, amarr/minnie... tux is a meanie Crying or Very sad

Heritor
Caldari
Hated Raiders
Posted - 2006.06.06 10:19:00 - [59]
 

I am very unsure abouit nerfing optimal range......I dont like the idea at all Crying or Very sadRolling Eyes


Mind
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.06.06 10:48:00 - [60]
 

Oh, i read an idea here that i immediately fell in love with:

ROF and DMG mods seperately (ie, +rof and +Damagemod is diffrent, not +rof AND +dmg as it is now) same goes for sensor boosters, +sensor res OR +Lockingrange, this will practicaly elimate the snipe-gank fleets, ie warp in lock and wait for X sec to fire, not like now 250km lockrange and almost insta-lock setups for LONG ranges, this will give interdictors and ceptors time to approach the target, unlike now instalock a mwding ship and pop in 1 salvo.

Same goes for the idea of Fighter-type modules, ie you have the inheret ability to follow a ship in warp with interdictors and/or interceptors.. make it so that you can select a person "follow in warp" once within 20-25km range of a enemy so that if he runs you still got a chance of taking him on later, this will also help with snipers alot and make it ALOT more fun to engage, risk vs reward anyone?


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