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Gronsak
Amarr
Posted - 2006.05.05 15:03:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Hugh Ruka

Nafri, Gronsak is playing the game of numbers, where the highest number wins for him. It's the same as saying mega has more dps than raven so mega should win every time. we know it's not true.

btw notice that he does not comment any other suggestions than his own ...


your a noob,
a raven should win a fight if it starts at 5km optimal vs a blasterhtorn?


and nafri yes he can only do 1 cycle but thats enough, and soon as he hits 500k SP he will be in a blackbrid and have no cap probs!

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
Posted - 2006.05.05 15:06:00 - [152]
 

Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 05/05/2006 15:07:19
Originally by: smallgreenblur
Edited by: smallgreenblur on 05/05/2006 14:52:24
Because eccm doesn't work as well as you think. If fitting one eccm meant that somebody with one multispec couldn't jam you, fine. It doesn't tho, so you have taken a valuable mid slot for something that doesn't really help you that much.

I use eccm on bs, and I get jammed less than I used to. Not much tho, still ain't good enough. Also, eccm is useless on ships with below about 20 sensor strength.

Edit - if you can fit eccm, a sensor booster, a tracking computer (pointless in most close range setups), and still have enough room to tackle your opponent, you're flying a different ship to me.

sgb


well ppl already complained about the same issue with wcs. how the hell should they find slots for one MORE scrambler while the wcs user is sacrificing at least 3 lows to be any way sure he can escape ?

you can't have it all ... there is always a weaknes ... so either defend against damage (with tank) or against EW (with eccm, sensor boosters, tracing comps,wcs), or use EW yourself ...

why don't you argue that you have to fit guns to kill an enemy while the drone carriers do not need them ? it's the same issue just different color.

EW does not kill you, it's the weapons that do. EW only disables some of your ships functionality ... that's the purpose of EW ... deal with it.

smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.05 15:08:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Christopher Dalran
Edited by: Christopher Dalran on 05/05/2006 15:04:29
Edited by: Christopher Dalran on 05/05/2006 15:02:12

Fly with someone in a EW ship with Projected ECCM or something. If they lock them so what, your the one doing all the dammage and if they jam you just use your ECCM while the other projects his onto you and you should be fine. Same applies to tracking and dampers.


Interesting idea. It's been said before, but you haven't read this thread (i know it's long). Now we are left with two problems. Who is doing the tackling while one member of the pair is entirely dedicated to stopping any ecm the other side might or might not bring. And who is bringing the eccm when i fly on my own? And who is bringing the remote tracking and remote sensor boosting? Are you seriously suggesting that for one ship to be effective against another it needs 3 support ships, each dedicated to resisting a different type of EW?

EW is not overpowered. ECM is. TomB acknowledged this, and what remains to be done is to find a way of reducing it's overall impact whilst keeping a role for specialist ships, and not making it useless overall. IMO a multi should be as useful as a RSD or TD. Right now, it ain't.

sgb

smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.05 15:11:00 - [154]
 

Edited by: smallgreenblur on 05/05/2006 15:13:26
Edited by: smallgreenblur on 05/05/2006 15:11:12
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 05/05/2006 15:07:19
Originally by: smallgreenblur
Edited by: smallgreenblur on 05/05/2006 14:52:24
Because eccm doesn't work as well as you think. If fitting one eccm meant that somebody with one multispec couldn't jam you, fine. It doesn't tho, so you have taken a valuable mid slot for something that doesn't really help you that much.

I use eccm on bs, and I get jammed less than I used to. Not much tho, still ain't good enough. Also, eccm is useless on ships with below about 20 sensor strength.

Edit - if you can fit eccm, a sensor booster, a tracking computer (pointless in most close range setups), and still have enough room to tackle your opponent, you're flying a different ship to me.

sgb


well ppl already complained about the same issue with wcs. how the hell should they find slots for one MORE scrambler while the wcs user is sacrificing at least 3 lows to be any way sure he can escape ?

you can't have it all ... there is always a weaknes ... so either defend against damage (with tank) or against EW (with eccm, sensor boosters, tracing comps,wcs), or use EW yourself ...

why don't you argue that you have to fit guns to kill an enemy while the drone carriers do not need them ? it's the same issue just different color.

EW does not kill you, it's the weapons that do. EW only disables some of your ships functionality ... that's the purpose of EW ... deal with it.


I will reiterate my argument. In small words. EW is not overpowered. ECM is. Currently a small ship with a multispec on has a relatively good chance of ENTIRELY taking a battleship out of the fight, with the beleagured pilot not even able to deal with the jamming threat effectively.

TomB has acknowleged this. We now need to seek solutions, not more arguments.

Oh look, this is the same post as I made above. And above that. And above that...

Couple of edits: I use EW myself. I can happily wtfpwn a bs or two in a BC and a couple of cruisers, without even taking damage cos the poor sod is jammed 90% of the time from a couple of multispecs. This isn't balanced.

Other such problems (wcs etc) gimp your setup so as to make you considerably less effective. If anything, ECM makes you considerably more effective. This isn't balanced.

sgb

Lucian Corvinus
Gallente
Expert Systems
Posted - 2006.05.05 15:33:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Gronsak

your a noob,
a raven should win a fight if it starts at 5km optimal vs a blasterhtorn?



No of course not, the raven should always lose, I mean there is nothing that can justify a blasterthron losing to a raven at 5 kmRolling Eyes


without
Posted - 2006.05.05 15:34:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus
Originally by: Gronsak

your a noob,
a raven should win a fight if it starts at 5km optimal vs a blasterhtorn?



No of course not, the raven should always lose, I mean there is nothing that can justify a blasterthron losing to a raven at 5 kmRolling Eyes




exactly, very good, your learning

smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.05 15:34:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus
Originally by: Gronsak

your a noob,
a raven should win a fight if it starts at 5km optimal vs a blasterhtorn?



No of course not, the raven should always lose, I mean there is nothing that can justify a blasterthron losing to a raven at 5 kmRolling Eyes




No, however with the blasterthron right in its optimal, and still getting pwned by the raven, something might be wrong...

Back on track and topic please.

sgb

Lucian Corvinus
Gallente
Expert Systems
Posted - 2006.05.05 16:03:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: without

exactly, very good, your learning


I'll give you a hint little fella, ship fittings do not have to be what you read on the forum, you can surprise an opponent by fitting radically different.Wink

now back on track, I'm really looking forward to see what tux can come up with.

smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.05 16:08:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus
Originally by: without

exactly, very good, your learning


I'll give you a hint little fella, ship fittings do not have to be what you read on the forum, you can surprise an opponent by fitting radically different.Wink

now back on track, I'm really looking forward to see what tux can come up with.


Yup, me too, I was kinda hoping for a reply in this thread indicating the current direction but I guess that's me being hopeful Rolling Eyes

Plus I did kinda steal tomB's original thread at the top.

sgb

Xanther
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.05.05 17:41:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 05/05/2006 15:07:19
Originally by: smallgreenblur
Edited by: smallgreenblur on 05/05/2006 14:52:24
Because eccm doesn't work as well as you think. If fitting one eccm meant that somebody with one multispec couldn't jam you, fine. It doesn't tho, so you have taken a valuable mid slot for something that doesn't really help you that much.

I use eccm on bs, and I get jammed less than I used to. Not much tho, still ain't good enough. Also, eccm is useless on ships with below about 20 sensor strength.

Edit - if you can fit eccm, a sensor booster, a tracking computer (pointless in most close range setups), and still have enough room to tackle your opponent, you're flying a different ship to me.

sgb


well ppl already complained about the same issue with wcs. how the hell should they find slots for one MORE scrambler while the wcs user is sacrificing at least 3 lows to be any way sure he can escape ?

you can't have it all ... there is always a weaknes ... so either defend against damage (with tank) or against EW (with eccm, sensor boosters, tracing comps,wcs), or use EW yourself ...

why don't you argue that you have to fit guns to kill an enemy while the drone carriers do not need them ? it's the same issue just different color.

EW does not kill you, it's the weapons that do. EW only disables some of your ships functionality ... that's the purpose of EW ... deal with it.


ECM doesn't take SOME of your functionality, it takes most, if not ALL of it. Drone carriers aren't hurt as bad as drones will auto acquire... Missile boats with fof missiles aren't either... everyone else has the choice of warp out or die, as you're useless. You might as well say you could duct tape all your fingers together and still type. Sure you can, but not as good as you used to.
ECM should hinder. Right now it cripples. The more I read this thread the more I think the idea is right to have a gentle ECM nerf and give EW specific boats a countering boost. Right now their main advantage is the slot layout... they have benefits for the electronics they're supposed to have specifically for EW hardware, but it lets them use the modules longer, or more of them, not better.
You don't see a raven and expect a salvo of tach beams, or a tempest and expect a massive armor tank, so why should ECM have such big nasty teeth on any ship that can sustain the modules?



Clavius XIV
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.05.05 20:14:00 - [161]
 

Edited by: Clavius XIV on 05/05/2006 20:45:52
Originally by: smallgreenblur

Currently a small ship with a multispec on has a relatively good chance of ENTIRELY taking a battleship out of the fight


More like it can reduce the damage output of a BS by 25% assuminging decent skills and the cap to keep the multi running (and ofc no eccm)

Quote:

Couple of edits: I use EW myself. I can happily wtfpwn a bs or two in a BC and a couple of cruisers, without even taking damage cos the poor sod is jammed 90% of the time from a couple of multispecs. This isn't balanced.



Of course, because whoever brings the greater tonnage to the fight should win (or have the better chance) This sort of thinking gets everone into battleships (with maybe some interceptors to tackle).

Quote:

Other such problems (wcs etc) gimp your setup so as to make you considerably less effective. If anything, ECM makes you considerably more effective. This isn't balanced.



ECM gimps your setup FAR more than wcs. What goes in mids? Propulsion, web, scram, only the 3 most popular pvp mods. You have to give one of those up to fit a single jammer on most ships.

The "imbalance" if any is that ECM is more powerful than damps and far more powerful than TD. But arguing for racial balance won't help because Minimatar still need the option to fit ECM since they don't get a defensive EWar of their own.

There are two compelling arguments that all EWar should be of the same utility:
1) Relative utility of different EWar types makes some dedicated EWar ships stronger than others. This is already somewhat balanced by the rest of the ship features. Yes the blackbird has the best defensive EWar, and the Arbitrator the worst, but the Arbi has the best dps. I'd say the defensive EW ships were already balanced taking the relative utility of these into effect.

2) Relative utility of different EWar types makes ECM the only choice in EWAR and reduce variety. I'd say its the prefered type for sure. Damps and TD are much more situational. Prefered in the right situations, but they are not as common.

smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.05 21:08:00 - [162]
 

Edited by: smallgreenblur on 05/05/2006 21:08:51
Edited by: smallgreenblur on 05/05/2006 21:08:11
Originally by: Clavius XIV

Originally by: smallgreenblur

Currently a small ship with a multispec on has a relatively good chance of ENTIRELY taking a battleship out of the fight


More like it can reduce the damage output of a BS by 25% assuminging decent skills and the cap to keep the multi running (and ofc no eccm)


By 25%? If a bs is jammed that's it, the drones go shoot random stuff and the bs can't shoot you. Hence, it has a decent chance of ENTIRELY taking a bs out of the fight

Quote:
Quote:

Couple of edits: I use EW myself. I can happily wtfpwn a bs or two in a BC and a couple of cruisers, without even taking damage cos the poor sod is jammed 90% of the time from a couple of multispecs. This isn't balanced.



Of course, because whoever brings the greater tonnage to the fight should win (or have the better chance) This sort of thinking gets everone into battleships (with maybe some interceptors to tackle).


So my bs should be THAT vunerable to 3 cruisers? Sorry but i don't think that skill, experience and better ships should really be that easy to kill. I should get at least one of those cruisers in an even fight. Your point of view encouraces blobing, already a severe problem in pvp.



Quote:
Quote:

Other such problems (wcs etc) gimp your setup so as to make you considerably less effective. If anything, ECM makes you considerably more effective. This isn't balanced.



ECM gimps your setup FAR more than wcs. What goes in mids? Propulsion, web, scram, only the 3 most popular pvp mods. You have to give one of those up to fit a single jammer on most ships.


Really? I was thinking that with a bunch of wcs on you couldn't fit a decent tank or damage mods, wheras one ecm per ship that has more than 3 mids makes a much bigger difference.

Quote:
The "imbalance" if any is that ECM is more powerful than damps and far more powerful than TD. But arguing for racial balance won't help because Minimatar still need the option to fit ECM since they don't get a defensive EWar of their own.

There are two compelling arguments that all EWar should be of the same utility:
1) Relative utility of different EWar types makes some dedicated EWar ships stronger than others. This is already somewhat balanced by the rest of the ship features. Yes the blackbird has the best defensive EWar, and the Arbitrator the worst, but the Arbi has the best dps. I'd say the defensive EW ships were already balanced taking the relative utility of these into effect.

2) Relative utility of different EWar types makes ECM the only choice in EWAR and reduce variety. I'd say its the prefered type for sure. Damps and TD are much more situational. Prefered in the right situations, but they are not as common.



So ecm is more powerful than the other types of ew? Really? Man i wish i'd pointed that out several times already.

What I am after is a balancing of ECM, nothing more. Your arguments just don't hold water.

sgb

Clavius XIV
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.05.05 22:37:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: smallgreenblur
Originally by: Clavius XIV

Originally by: smallgreenblur

Currently a small ship with a multispec on has a relatively good chance of ENTIRELY taking a battleship out of the fight


More like it can reduce the damage output of a BS by 25% assuminging decent skills and the cap to keep the multi running (and ofc no eccm)


By 25%? If a bs is jammed that's it, the drones go shoot random stuff and the bs can't shoot you. Hence, it has a decent chance of ENTIRELY taking a bs out of the fight


I was refereing to your example of one small ship with a single multi ii with decent skill vs a BS. Sensor strentgh around 20-25 vs jamming strengh around 5-6, so jamed for 25% of the time. Obviously the actual damage reduction would be less if drones come into play (and conversly there is the lock time of the BS to factor in which wasn't considered.. but you get the idea.. its not a total lockdown, its essentialy a dps reduction).

Quote:

So my bs should be THAT vunerable to 3 cruisers? Sorry but i don't think that skill, experience and better ships should really be that easy to kill. I should get at least one of those cruisers in an even fight. Your point of view encouraces blobing, already a severe problem in pvp.


If they are properly setup, why not. But at any rate, how many properly set up cruisers do you think it should take? If you think it should take larger numbers, how is my view encouraging blobbing?

(We may be working on different definitions of blobbing, when I hear blobing I generally equate it to "overkill", like pulling out 7 bs to counter 7 cruisers).

If your problem is that "you should have been able to kill at least some of them" then I'm sure you would agree that ceptor gangs are a FAR worse problem. Every time a ceptor gang engages a bigger ship, at least one ceptor in the gang should pop... yeah I could get behind that..Twisted Evil After roaming and ganking 4-5 people thered be no ships left! Cool

Quote:

Quote:

ECM gimps your setup FAR more than wcs. What goes in mids? Propulsion, web, scram, only the 3 most popular pvp mods. You have to give one of those up to fit a single jammer on most ships.


Really? I was thinking that with a bunch of wcs on you couldn't fit a decent tank or damage mods, wheras one ecm per ship that has more than 3 mids makes a much bigger difference.



Well obviously this is highly ship and situation dependant, but to kill anyone you need to hold them in place. You don't need to tank them, and you don't need to kill them super fast, altough doing those things well may let you kill a wider range of targets

But you basicaly are saying the same thing yourself, ECM is a great choice for a 4th mid, but there are 3 more generally useful modules. Wonderful if you are caldari, or flying a BS.

Quote:

So ecm is more powerful than the other types of ew? Really? Man i wish i'd pointed that out several times already.

What I am after is a balancing of ECM, nothing more.


And the defensive EW ships that dont have ECM bonus are more powerful than the ones that do to balance it. I doubt that is a coiencidence.

They shouldn't be equivilant, they should be situational options. The problem is there are more situations that ECM jamming is useful. Perhaps if ECM jammers worked on everything BUT turrets you'd see a differnet usage distribution. Jammers vs missles and nos, TD vs turrets, and damps given insane range bonus to shut down those 175km snipers.

The problem is this screws with racial ewar ship balance, making Blackbird worse than Arbitrator overall.

smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.05 23:11:00 - [164]
 

cba quoting all that, but you're not really arguing the right points. My point about the bs is not that one multi reduces the bs's overall damage by 25%, over time i can agree with that. However, my main issue is with the fact that in a short battle - most battles do not last longer than 30 secs to a min - that frig and its multi has a good chance of taking a bs entirely out of that fight. With other forms of ew those bs can at least still do some things, however with ecm that pilot is COMPLETELY out of the fight, for 20 seconds + relock time. For 30 second fights, which are a good % of pvp, this is unacceptable.

Ergo, ECM needs balancing to bring it more in line with other forms of EW. This is the be all and end all of my argument, and in my opinion irrefutable.

sgb

Gronsak
Amarr
Posted - 2006.05.05 23:20:00 - [165]
 

people are arguing here that ecm shouldnt be nerfed , it is clearly gona get the bat up the ass. but the question is how will it get nerfed?

personally i think eccm skills that effect ur ship is a good way to go.

so stop talking about why it shouldnt get nefed as devs want ideas how to nerf it, they wouldnt want that if they where not gona nerf it now would they

and start talking about what kind of nerf!



imo introduce 3 skills

1: increases ship sensor strength by 20%
2: increases ships tracking computers resistance from outside interferance -7.5% to effectiveness
3: same as two but for damps

Lucian Corvinus
Gallente
Expert Systems
Posted - 2006.05.05 23:33:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Gronsak
people are arguing here that ecm shouldnt be nerfed , it is clearly gona get the bat up the ass. but the question is how will it get nerfed?

personally i think eccm skills that effect ur ship is a good way to go.

so stop talking about why it shouldnt get nefed as devs want ideas how to nerf it, they wouldnt want that if they where not gona nerf it now would they

and start talking about what kind of nerf!



imo introduce 3 skills

1: increases ship sensor strength by 20%
2: increases ships tracking computers resistance from outside interferance -7.5% to effectiveness
3: same as two but for damps


I'm gonna give you a hint little fella, they want to balance EW not nerf it, this means that they don't want to see thousands of dominix with 1-2 ecm modules jamming the crap out of everything, but want to see ships designed for using ecm still having the capabilities.

They are thinking about boosting the counter modules like the eccm modules, and if you look at the ew sticky, TomB is givin an example to make the jamming cycle for ecm modules 30 sec and a 10 sec cooldown. This would help ecm dedicated ships, and make it less useful for non ecm dedicated ships.

he was also thinking about adding low slot modules aiding the jamming ship.

smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.05 23:45:00 - [167]
 

balancing ew would mean nerfing ecm, one way or the other. get used to that idea.

sgb

smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.06 13:50:00 - [168]
 

Looks like this thread has run its course, thanks to everybody that made a valid contribution, which is a suprisingly large number of the posters. I am going to cross post the summary to the game development forum, hopefully it will be of some use.

Cheers guys,

sgb

Kaleeb
0ne Percent.
Posted - 2006.05.06 14:47:00 - [169]
 

Sorry I havent read everyones replies but i`ll post what I would do.

At present multispecs use whay 90 or 120 cap per cycle? Boost that up to 300 unless fitted to a jamming specific ship e.g rook/scorp etc same with dampners and the lachesis/celestis.

That stops everyman and his dog using them and if he does he has to pay a hefty price.

Basically they become like the covert ops cloak.

Selim
Akh'Vehlr Industries
Posted - 2006.05.06 15:04:00 - [170]
 

Quote:
Jammers prevent you from activating modules on enemies (ed - and friendlies?), NOT locking them. Jammers have 10 second cycle time. No relock reqired.


One of the better ideas tbh, the worst part about jamming is that by the time you eventually arent jammed, you still have to relock, during which you will probably be jammed again anyway.

Actually the worst part of jamming is that you're basically screwed if you're jammed even once. ugh

smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.06 15:08:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Selim
Quote:
Jammers prevent you from activating modules on enemies (ed - and friendlies?), NOT locking them. Jammers have 10 second cycle time. No relock reqired.


One of the better ideas tbh, the worst part about jamming is that by the time you eventually arent jammed, you still have to relock, during which you will probably be jammed again anyway.

Actually the worst part of jamming is that you're basically screwed if you're jammed even once. ugh


QFT...

Good idea about the cap thing above, i'll include that on my summary post.

sgb

Sebroth
Posted - 2006.05.06 15:52:00 - [172]
 

// this I think will do it
- higher sensor strenght for the ships all over (20-30%??)
- shorter cycel times = higher cap use, less likly to get that jam over and over.... using only 1 jammer
- lower strenght on the multis (20%??)
- lower strenght one the wrong sensor typ for racials
- let us install "wrong" sensorsystems on our ships = this will make it harder to know what ecm to use.

// what not to do
- stacking and the old fixed system = this will make it possible to get 100% succes when it comes to not get jammed. 2 friends using eccm will boost the strenght up to 40-50Shocked and w/ stacking you will have no way to get to that level.

I think its better to change lots of things a little then 1 thing alot. The cooldown system sound nice and if ccp going for a heating system ingame that might be the way to go.

Kernel Dagger
Posted - 2006.05.06 17:36:00 - [173]
 

Edited by: Kernel Dagger on 06/05/2006 17:54:50
Edited by: Kernel Dagger on 06/05/2006 17:40:59
I think you guys are approaching this from the wrong angle. You're out to change the overall balance by drastically changing the way the system works. By rebuilding the system from scratch, it will inherently require more balancing than just fixing the existing system through proper iteration.

Change the duration of the jam to be proportionate to the disparity in jam strength vs sensor strength. Don't change the way any of the jamming chance works. Don't nerf damage while using ECM.


Jam Chance = (Jam Str / Target Sensor Strength)
Jam Duration = Jam Chance * (X * Jam Cycle Time) (I suggest starting at 1.0 for X)

Focus on tweaking only the parameters in this function, Jammer strength, Ship Sensor Strengths, and Jammer cycle time.

Under this change, you reach a much more balanced outcome:

ECCM - lowers jam chance AND jam duration
Racial jammers - Better chance to jam with higher duration, but only works on racial ships.
Multispec jammers - End up with lower chance to jam AND lower jam duration than racial
ECM Ships - Ships with bonuses to ecm strength will now be more useful than any random ship + ECM

Doing a quick evaluation will show some pretty interesting results:
A non-ecm ship with a multispec against a battleship will have a roughly 20% chance to jam for only 4 seconds.
A scorpion on the other hand, with the appropriate racial jammer will have a closer to 50% chance to jam for 10 seconds.

Against larger targets, it becomes much less of a "i win" button, since per jammer, you're only looking at being jammed for a fraction of the frequency with which they can attempt to jam you per module. If you have enough ECM levelled at your head that you are still jammed continuously, then you are dominated anyway you cut it.

Possible further tweaks to this system then become changing the way the jamming works. Instead of breaking the lock forcing you to relock at the end of the timer, and in effect increasing the jam duration by their lock time, instantly resume the previous locks. This, unfortunately breaks a very interesting side effect of ECM, which is the fact that it can be combined with Sensor Dampening to effectively increase the potency of your jamming. I'm not sure how I feel about this possible change, since I think one of the best parts of this game is the emergent design behind simple systems. How combining different strategies ends up with something greater than the sum of the parts.

Another further tweak is not allowing subsequent ECM cycles to restart the jam time. This requires more diligence on the part of the jammer to manage the ECM effectively. It also makes getting jammed by a group more bearable, since there's basically no way they're going to be able to effectively manage it appropriately... and if they do, then you're dominated either way :)


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