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Gierling
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.05.04 17:39:00 - [91]
 

I'm a BIG fan of the idea to change ECM so that it affects offensive modules instead of locks.

That way Its not so frustrating, it still has the same NET affect, but you can get off a shot or a jam of your own while your doing it.

The important thing is that it needs to be per cycle.

So Say Nafri has successfully jammed me for say 12 points, and I'm in a Mega (22 point strength). SO every time my (Affected) guns are suppossed to fire (or ECM or Nos etc) there is a 54% chance of them not firing, in 5.4 seconds the gun rolls again and can fire if it passes.

Also there should be a limit as to how many modules an ECM can prevent at any one given time. That should be skill based, So if Nafri has a jam on me with the skill at 5, then 5 weapons or NOS or ECM will fail during that "Jam cycle". If he only has one jammer on me, the 5 guns fail, and any additional guns fire.

If he only has the skill to 3 then only 3 failures per jam cycle, so he'd need to put another jammer on me to do what he did with the one with the skill at 5.

This would lead to a decrease in the offensive power of the enemy ship, however it does not end thier fight immedietly, it still lets them fight back albeit in a limited capacity, and introduces an avenue for player skill through trying to bluff the jam, activate all your guns until youve failed 5 times, THEN hitting your nos on him.


smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.04 18:34:00 - [92]
 

Right, this seems to be the arguments so far, what should I do with the thread now? *pokes tux* read this so i can stop bumping it Smile

sgb

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.05.04 18:51:00 - [93]
 

I would really like to see them only effect guns or missiles ideally. Nos should work through a jamming just like they do through Tracking Disruption. Even with a cooldown timer I don't think it will help that much as 1 cycle of being jammed is more than enough to kill anything other than an ubertanked bs.

Final note on stats: Tbh consequtive or paralell isn't much of an issue. If I role a die 10 times the odds of rolling a 1 at sometime during that interval goes up with each role. The REAL issue is that often just 1 cycle of being jammed = death, while 2 cycles is overkil. Because of the way the odds stack when using jammers, the percentage chance to be jammed just goes up the more you use. This means that jammers get more effective the more you use, completely contrary to all other forms of EW that get less effective the more you use because of a stacking penalty.

Here is a link of a previous post on how to calculate chances of being jammed. It's an interesting read.

Nyxus

Clavius XIV
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.05.04 19:03:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Nyxus
Even with a cooldown timer I don't think it will help that much as 1 cycle of being jammed is more than enough to kill anything other than an ubertanked bs.



Shocked
What kind of fights are you having? If the other side has ECM as well things shouln't die that fast. I would posit that the problem is that things die in 20 seconds, not that jams last that long.

In fact what you are saying is an argument for more effective and widespread use of ECM if I ever saw one. If more people on each side are jammed, maybe people will actuly not die in 20 seconds.

Of course if only one side is using ECM, it can be a slaughter, but thats like one side not bringing tacklers.

I see damage and ECM as pretty balanced right now.. in small-mid scale(5-15 per side), short ranged fights. The only "imbalance" is that ECM is overpowered compared to other forms of EW, and ECCM is useless for the fitting on cruisers and frigs.

There are plenty of occasions I can recall where we went into an EW fight, where the enemy had more EW than we did, but not enough damage and as a result, they couldn't kill us fast enough even though from the fraps we were jammed most of the time.

BlackPrince
Trinity Nova
Trinity Nova Alliance
Posted - 2006.05.04 19:45:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: smallgreenblur
Edited by: smallgreenblur on 04/05/2006 17:16:39
Fair point, but the only similarity between battleships in eve and battleships in real life is the name. People have trouble getting their head around it, but any forum***** will back me up. Smile Just trust me on this one.

I'm glad you're a master of tatics, personally i'm a master of the '**** it, jump in guys' tatic that leads to a lot more fun (in my opinion at any rate) and lot more losses. As such I experience a considerably wider variety of battles than the average eve player, and can reliably testify to what is overpowered and what is not. I also regularly experiment with various wierd setups, including eccm and nanos and whatnot.

I am still of the opinion that ECM is overpowered and needs at the least a slight tap from the nerfbat.

sgb



No offense but it seems to me that your thinking on the matter is that since your Ship is bigger and more expensive than theirs, it should always win. That's not how the game is played and by allowing yourself to think so you will continue to lose ships unnecessarily.

As for the "Forum *****s" as you put, if it wasn't obvious already, my opinion on them is that most couldn't pour **** out of a boot with the diretions on the heel. They'll jump all over the flavor of the week idea (This week its individual ECM modules jamming individual weapons systems), next week it will be something else.

The idea of letting ECM jam offensive modules is, quite frankly, stupid. Unless on EWAR specific ships you allow a massive increase of EWAR specific medium slots to allow them to accomplish their job. EWAR is not a 1:1 trade off, and it never should be. That's bad math, you'd be better off just adding one more gun bunny to the fleet with tracking disruptors and sensor damps at that point. EWAR's big advantage is that it allows a skilled, properly equipped, and intelligently played ship to take out a large number of unprotected enemies. Once those enemies begin protecting themselves the success rate of the Jammer goes down dramatically. Folks here want to be able to block with one or two modules the power of 6, and that's just absurd. You want to be completely Jam proof against 6 jammers? You should be forced to use 6 ECCM modules (well, not really, the current reality of the situation is 2 modules will cut his effectiveness against you by 40% and 3 modules can take it down to 10% success if done right).

I am curious as to what, if any, ECCM modules the majority of these people who get their Dreagnaughts locked down in one attempt by a frigate with noob skills are using (we'll ignore the fact that their stories smell like bovine fecal matter for the moment).

Go test, fit some modules against ecm, and take screenies of you getting jammed and keep an accurate count of how many times it happens versus what modules you are using.

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.05.04 19:56:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: Ithildin on 04/05/2006 19:56:10
Here's a novel idea about ECM.

Problem: ECM works too well in smaller quantities
Naive approach: Reduce effectiveness of ECM
New problem: ECM done by dedicated ECM boats will be severely and unnecessarily nerfed

Solution: Sensor strengths are boosted by at least 50% across the board. ECM modules are unchanged in strength, but also do sensor damage when activated on a target (regardless if *hit* or not). Thus, if multiple ECM systems are activated on a single ship, the chance of ECMing that ship will increase for each jammer.
A ship that is hit by several ECM systems, especially correct racials, should be jammed no matter what.
Additional, optional, modification: Protect ships from "lucky hit" jammings by introducing a removal of jamming chances below 5% chance. This can be done by either introducing an if-then statement (or similar) or mathematically reducing the chance of being jammed by a flat 5 percent units.

smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.04 19:59:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: smallgreenblur on 04/05/2006 20:00:45
Well I have to say that the majority of the people who post regularly on these forums know what they are talking about, and can back that up with the math.

I have no intention of jumping on the ewar should shut off individual modules bandwagon. In fact i have no intention of jumping on any bandwagons. My purpose in creating thread was to bring together some ideas for any devs that are looking at ECM to read.

You still don't appear to have accepted that eve != real life.

And i'm not saying that because my ship is bigger, more expensive, and generally better that theirs it should always win. I'm saying that if my ship is bigger, better, more expensive and piloted by a skilled pilot, it should generally win.

sgb

Cummilla
Posted - 2006.05.04 20:00:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: TheKiller8
Are you implying there is something wrong with my ability to jam a carrier with a single wrong racial jammer?


As a matter of fact, yes. Not a flame, and coming from me as one who has fed at the EW trough for a long long time, still it's just something that "shouldn't happen."

I think carrier's being jammed are a source for alot of the angst that's welling up against the current EW system. We're talking sensor values of 100+ being jammed consistently! That's just wrong and a carrier pays the price of it's entire role being compromised by this particular fact. It cannot support in it's combat support role anything if it's jammed to hell and back.

smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.04 20:02:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Cummilla
Originally by: TheKiller8
Are you implying there is something wrong with my ability to jam a carrier with a single wrong racial jammer?


As a matter of fact, yes. Not a flame, and coming from me as one who has fed at the EW trough for a long long time, still it's just something that "shouldn't happen."

I think carrier's being jammed are a source for alot of the angst that's welling up against the current EW system. We're talking sensor values of 100+ being jammed consistently! That's just wrong and a carrier pays the price of it's entire role being compromised by this particular fact. It cannot support in it's combat support role anything if it's jammed to hell and back.


wts - sarcasm detector...

And yes, carriers being regularly jammed by racials indicates a rather grave problem with the current jamming system.

sgb

Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.05.04 20:02:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Cummilla
Originally by: TheKiller8
Are you implying there is something wrong with my ability to jam a carrier with a single wrong racial jammer?


As a matter of fact, yes. Not a flame, and coming from me as one who has fed at the EW trough for a long long time, still it's just something that "shouldn't happen."

I think carrier's being jammed are a source for alot of the angst that's welling up against the current EW system. We're talking sensor values of 100+ being jammed consistently! That's just wrong and a carrier pays the price of it's entire role being compromised by this particular fact. It cannot support in it's combat support role anything if it's jammed to hell and back.


I tried to jamm something with 100 sensor strength once, I didnt manage it with 7 jammers within 10 cycles Razz

but my padawan in a blackbird did it :(

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.05.04 20:15:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/05/2006 20:15:50
smallgreenblur,

Please read the thread title. See the word "nerf". Right.

"seems to", right. I don't believe it IS broken, and you're the one asking for a change. It's for you to justify said change, not for me to defend what exists and works.

You're asking for a nerf. I have ideas for it working *differently*, like Partial Jams in the proper stickied thread, but they're not nerfs.

(Partial Jam: tweak the stats and have less of a difference between Frigate and BS sensor strenghts. Then adjust jammers so they will on *average* jam a couple of targeting channels on a BS. If you have 8 targets, and get jammed for 2 then you have a 25% chance of losing and being unable to regain for the EW cycle, and you max locks is now 6)


Gronsak, so you want them to never ever be used because they wouls be utterly and compleetly useless? That's a mild overreaction. How would you like it if I said "halve weapon damage"!!! Right.


Originally by: Gierling
I'm a BIG fan of the idea to change ECM so that it affects offensive modules instead of locks.

That way Its not so frustrating, it still has the same NET affect, but you can get off a shot or a jam of your own while your doing it.



If you're a BS, sure. Especially ones with lots of guns. Amarr BS will love you. The Tempest, with its 6 turret highslots? Um. Let alone the flying trashcan. That's why I prefer doing on total avaliable LOCKS, as per my partial jam idea.

smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.04 20:21:00 - [102]
 

Edited by: smallgreenblur on 04/05/2006 20:28:11
Edited by: smallgreenblur on 04/05/2006 20:22:34
My apologies for my wording maya. What i mean is a 'slight nerf', along the lines of making it maybe 20-30% less effective overall. I'll change the thread title for you.

What you propose is also a nerf, in that it will make ECM less effecitve overall. Good idea tho, i'll go put it up in the top.

Edit: i'd love a halving of all weapon damage, would make more fights longer and therefore more fun :) I'm so gonna get flamed now...

sgb

Cummilla
Posted - 2006.05.04 20:25:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Ithildin
Edited by: Ithildin on 04/05/2006 19:56:10
Here's a novel idea about ECM.

Problem: ECM works too well in smaller quantities
Naive approach: Reduce effectiveness of ECM
New problem: ECM done by dedicated ECM boats will be severely and unnecessarily nerfed

Solution: Sensor strengths are boosted by at least 50% across the board. ECM modules are unchanged in strength, but also do sensor damage when activated on a target (regardless if *hit* or not). Thus, if multiple ECM systems are activated on a single ship, the chance of ECMing that ship will increase for each jammer.
A ship that is hit by several ECM systems, especially correct racials, should be jammed no matter what.
Additional, optional, modification: Protect ships from "lucky hit" jammings by introducing a removal of jamming chances below 5% chance. This can be done by either introducing an if-then statement (or similar) or mathematically reducing the chance of being jammed by a flat 5 percent units.


lol....good ideas ith. But basically this is back to what I would call a modified "old school" form of ECM. Interesting :)

Cummilla
Posted - 2006.05.04 20:27:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: smallgreenblur
Originally by: Cummilla
Originally by: TheKiller8
Are you implying there is something wrong with my ability to jam a carrier with a single wrong racial jammer?


As a matter of fact, yes. Not a flame, and coming from me as one who has fed at the EW trough for a long long time, still it's just something that "shouldn't happen."

I think carrier's being jammed are a source for alot of the angst that's welling up against the current EW system. We're talking sensor values of 100+ being jammed consistently! That's just wrong and a carrier pays the price of it's entire role being compromised by this particular fact. It cannot support in it's combat support role anything if it's jammed to hell and back.


wts - sarcasm detector...

And yes, carriers being regularly jammed by racials indicates a rather grave problem with the current jamming system.

sgb


I know TK8 is being sarcastic. But, the existance of the outlandish jamming observation being referred to is one of the biggish problems with the current system. It should be used as the "whipping boy" in terms of getting peoples' attention.

Ter'duk Tarr
Posted - 2006.05.04 20:33:00 - [105]
 

There are defenses against jamming. I you don't wanna be jammed i suggest u use the mods that prevent it. Stop whining about jamming.

smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.04 20:43:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Ter'duk Tarr
There are defenses against jamming. I you don't wanna be jammed i suggest u use the mods that prevent it. Stop whining about jamming.


These posts are unhelpful to all sides, please read the thread and post constructively.

sgb

Mara Black
Posted - 2006.05.04 21:12:00 - [107]
 

Edited by: Mara Black on 04/05/2006 21:13:08
As a fairly new citizen of Eve I'll contribute my thoughts about the problems with ECM:

A. Lock prevention discourages tactics
Locking is an enabling condition for most combat tactics in Eve. Preventing locking prevents all of those tactics, and thus discourages tactical play. Not coincidentally, not being able to engage in tactical play tends to frustrate many players, hence much ECM hate. Its not just a question of balance, its also a question of fun.

B. ECM countermeasures are not useful in themselves
Tracking enhancers and sensor boosters have a benefit even when no one uses ECM against you, thus they are never a totally wasted a slot. If you fit ECM countermeasures, and nobody jams you, your slot is effectively wasted.

C. No natural countermeasures
ECM doesn't have generally available natural countermeasures. There are ways to counter an enemy that uses a tracking disruptors on you besides fitting countermodules. There are ways to avoid being warp scrambled (get out of range, shooting down the enemy, drain his cap etc. etc.). But for ECM there are no such measures available.

D. Large blanket effect
One module can (all other things being equal) have a huge effect on battle outcome, more so than any other *single* module in game. If you fit a tracking disruptor and your enemy uses missiles, you're out of luck. If you fit a multispectral, and your enemy has not prepared specifically to counter it, you might win the battle regardless of the rest of his setup.

If the solution solves all four above points, you're on the way.


smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.04 21:24:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Mara Black
Edited by: Mara Black on 04/05/2006 21:13:08
As a fairly new citizen of Eve I'll contribute my thoughts about the problems with ECM:

A. Lock prevention discourages tactics
Locking is an enabling condition for most combat tactics in Eve. Preventing locking prevents all of those tactics, and thus discourages tactical play. Not coincidentally, not being able to engage in tactical play tends to frustrate many players, hence much ECM hate. Its not just a question of balance, its also a question of fun.

B. ECM countermeasures are not useful in themselves
Tracking enhancers and sensor boosters have a benefit even when no one uses ECM against you, thus they are never a totally wasted a slot. If you fit ECM countermeasures, and nobody jams you, your slot is effectively wasted.

C. No natural countermeasures
ECM doesn't have generally available natural countermeasures. There are ways to counter an enemy that uses a tracking disruptors on you besides fitting countermodules. There are ways to avoid being warp scrambled (get out of range, shooting down the enemy, drain his cap etc. etc.). But for ECM there are no such measures available.

D. Large blanket effect
One module can (all other things being equal) have a huge effect on battle outcome, more so than any other *single* module in game. If you fit a tracking disruptor and your enemy uses missiles, you're out of luck. If you fit a multispectral, and your enemy has not prepared specifically to counter it, you might win the battle regardless of the rest of his setup.

If the solution solves all four above points, you're on the way.




Great post from a new character. Thanks for your imput.

sgb

Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.05.04 21:26:00 - [109]
 

Well, still the best suggestion I have seen were:


Dont loose lock, just prevents you from activating offensive modules

Stacking penalty on jammers, stop the zerging

Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.05.04 21:36:00 - [110]
 

The problem with fitting ECCM is its a defensive countermodule, as opposed to just fitting ECM and offensively countering while having a multi-purpose module handy. Considering it doesn't even make you remotely impervious from jamming anyway, ECCMs are a waste outside of the sequential stacking niftyness (which doesn't seem like a bug, to be quite honest).

Anyway, the main issues with ECMs currently are the lack of falloff/gaurantee points to minimize unreasonable luck and the long jam cycles and low sensor strengths. I'd love to see a bigger rework as much as the next guy, especially one that focuses EWar more on taking snipers on the equation and less on adding another danger to closerange combat.

But thats probably just me.

A good first step would anyway be to have more convenient ECCMs - preferrably a 60-80% lowslot variant and a 100%-120% midslot variant, both with activation animations for the love of god.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.05.04 21:38:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Nafri
Stacking penalty on jammers, stop the zerging


I think that's counter-productive. It means that dedicated EW ships have to suffer a penalty, and it's far more tempting to NOT use the dedicated EW ship, but to stick one jammer on each of your ships instead.

Also, the relocking heavily penalised BS over smaller ships, and I think smaller ship's sensor strenght would have to be raised a little to compensate if that change went through.


Oh yea, and - make ECCM systems have a secondary function. Make them ALL omni, and instead the different types have active functions like passive locking, autolocking, ship scanning and so on.

Lucian Corvinus
Gallente
Expert Systems
Posted - 2006.05.04 21:43:00 - [112]
 

There are ways to counter ecm, some of which are called eccm modules. Sure you might criple your fitting using them, but the same goes for fitting stabs, target disruptors and loads of other modules.

The only problem I see with ecm modules atm is that your chance for jamming is to large when only fitting 1-2 modules like on the dominix. these ships ought not to be able to jam so succesfully as they do atm.

The strenght should not be changed for ship designed for using ECM like the BB, scorp and rook, and all who whine about it ought to try some of the modules designed to counter it, they actually work!

Ter'duk Tarr
Posted - 2006.05.04 21:56:00 - [113]
 

Edited by: Ter''duk Tarr on 04/05/2006 21:59:23
Originally by: Lucian Corvinus
There are ways to counter ecm, some of which are called eccm modules. Sure you might criple your fitting using them, but the same goes for fitting stabs, target disruptors and loads of other modules.

The only problem I see with ecm modules atm is that your chance for jamming is to large when only fitting 1-2 modules like on the dominix. these ships ought not to be able to jam so succesfully as they do atm.

The strenght should not be changed for ship designed for using ECM like the BB, scorp and rook, and all who whine about it ought to try some of the modules designed to counter it, they actually work!



Wow someone w/ the same thoughts as me. Flame away whiners. Seriously, there are defensive measures u can take to not get jammed, all u don't wanna do is effect your setup. Well u can't have it both ways.

Mara Black
Posted - 2006.05.04 21:56:00 - [114]
 

Edited by: Mara Black on 04/05/2006 21:56:39
Originally by: Lucian Corvinus
There are ways to counter ecm, some of which are called eccm modules. Sure you might criple your fitting using them, but the same goes for fitting stabs, target disruptors and loads of other modules.


And the other ways except for fitting counter-modules are? Flee?

As I tried to explain, many other 'offensive/directed' modules have natural counters. A missile boat doesn't even need to counter an opponent with a tracking disruptor. A gunboat can use a multitude of other ways to reduce transversal of his target to counter the effect tracking disruptor. As I explained, tracking enhancers *also* have an effect regardless if your enemy fits a tracking disruptor. So its an unfair comparison even then.

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

The strenght should not be changed for ship designed for using ECM like the BB, scorp and rook, and all who whine about it ought to try some of the modules designed to counter it, they actually work!


If you reread my post a few post above this one, you see that the 'ability to fit countermodules' is not one of the core problems of ECM (at least IMO).

Lucian Corvinus
Gallente
Expert Systems
Posted - 2006.05.04 22:15:00 - [115]
 

Edited by: Lucian Corvinus on 04/05/2006 22:18:59
Originally by: Mara Black

And the other ways except for fitting counter-modules are? Flee?

As I tried to explain, many other 'offensive/directed' modules have natural counters. A missile boat doesn't even need to counter an opponent with a tracking disruptor. A gunboat can use a multitude of other ways to reduce transversal of his target to counter the effect tracking disruptor. As I explained, tracking enhancers *also* have an effect regardless if your enemy fits a tracking disruptor. So its an unfair comparison even then.



So if you go up against a missile boat and have fitted a tracking disruptor you are not unnecessarily fitted, and thereby have crippled your fitting?? same goes for eccm modules... you might win by having fitted one, you might strike out

Natural countermeasures do not always work, if you are webbed, how exactly are you gonna change/reduce your transversal speed? or how are you gonna counter a sniper sitting 150km from you?? flee??

so yeah, sometimes, if you don't have the right fittings, the only countermeasure is to flee

That is what makes this game so much fun, you really don't know what your opponent have fitted, and thereby have to take a chance sometimes

danneh
Amarr
V0LTA
Posted - 2006.05.04 22:15:00 - [116]
 

Meh, my ecm apoc is pretty pwn tbh.

Mara Black
Posted - 2006.05.04 22:33:00 - [117]
 

Ok, I'll take a stab at coming up with solutions, excuse me if I make proposals that are close to earlier rules, I only know (a bit) of the current system:

Passive ECM vs. Active ECM
When I just got here it seemed utterly weird to me that you actually had to target anyone to active your ECM. As if ECM 'did' something to your opponent's ship. That confused me big time. In my (simplified for the game) book, there are two kinds of ECM, Passive and Active.

Passive ECM is directed at your own ship, and its goal is dampen/disguise the signals you normally send out in order to confuse or make it hard for your opponent to bring his offensive options to bear on you. Major disadvantage of Passive ECM: works for your ship only.

Active ECM blankets your surrounding area with an overload of differing signals, indiscriminately trying blind anyone within range of your burst. Obviously, the jamming effect is strongest in the point of origin and falls off the further you get away from it. Major disadvantage of Active ECM: it generally jams all detection attempts in the blanketed area.

Passive ECM really belongs to the category of 'stealth ships'. I'll not go into that here.

I will consider active ECM as possible option: if you activate a module, it will blanket the area with signals of a certain kind (ECM modules may differ in their signal type/strength/falloff). Everyone near the center of the 'globe' or 'jam bubble' has maximum protection (including the ECM vessel itself), while the further you are out, the amount of protection diminishes.

This opens up much more tactical options, and requires much more coordination for fleets to pull off effectively. A possible counter would be to have frigs move into the globe to attempt an attack on the jammer, where the frigs know they are afforded the same protection by the blanket jam from the ECM ship.

Also, a radar sensor fitted fleet having one ECM ship with Ladar jammers has no problem targeting within their own blanket, but ships with Ladar sensors coming within the blanket will have trouble themselves.

Goading/forcing a ship slightly out of the center of the globe to have an easier time hitting it may also be a viable option.

You can have ECM vessels fly towards heavily beleaguered battleships to 'pull some of the heat off them', by disrupting their enemies offense by bringing the battleships within their jam bubbles.

Drone communication may be lost within the 'jam bubble' etc. etc.

My ideas are probably not really practical solutions, in that they stray to far from the established game use of ECM, but I feel that I am still a bit to unfamiliar with jamming gaming mechanics and history to provide such, so just threw in some (hopefully) novel ideas for inspiration.

Mara Black
Posted - 2006.05.04 22:46:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Lucian Corvinus

So if you go up against a missile boat and have fitted a tracking disruptor you are not unnecessarily fitted, and thereby have crippled your fitting??


I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say here, but if you play a lot of games you will notice that an active option of effect X is always better than a reactive option of effect X, since the person with the active option *knows* he is going to use it, while the reactive never knows if he reactive option will play into his hand. Therefore reactive options tend to be stronger than active options. This is true for damage mods vs. defensive mods in EVE (percentage damage increased per mod is much lower than percentage resistance increased) as it is with damage dealing and healing in magic.

Let me give a simpler example. In Monopoloy a 'get out of jail card' (a reactive option) is worthless if nobody puts you in jail, a 'put someone in jail card' (if it existed) would be worth a lot more in such a game, even though each counters the other perfectly.

Specific Offense always beats specific defense, since the first has the initiative.


Originally by: Lucian Corvinus
Natural countermeasures do not always work, if you are webbed, how exactly are you gonna change/reduce your transversal speed? or how are you gonna counter a sniper sitting 150km from you?? flee??


You are making my point for me. Of course natural countermeasures do not always work, they have countermeasures themselves, etc. etc. That is part of the beauty of EVE tactical combat, you have to think and adapt while you are playing, countering countermeasure with countermeasure. With ECM you don't have that options. You strike out or you don't, it has precious little to do with tactics. And I think many people here do play it because of the wealth of tactical options and the fact that their in-combat choices actually affect the outcome.


Originally by: Lucian Corvinus
That is what makes this game so much fun, you really don't know what your opponent have fitted, and thereby have to take a chance sometimes


That is certainly true, I agree, but I think it is only part of the fun. To use my magic analogy, not knowing what deck your opponent has built is part of the fun, but actually tactically playing against him is another big part. ECM makes it 'hard to play' sometimes.

smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.04 23:02:00 - [119]
 

Please do not dismiss this as a 'whining thread', I am trying to look for a solution to ecm being considerably more effective than any other form of electronic warfare.

Also please try and keep this discussion within the current frame of ecm in EVE, real world analogies and hypothetical situations are mostly useless.

It appears to me that very few people use ECCM wheras the vast majority of gangs have ECM on, this testifies in itself to the superiority of one of them. Surely it is better to fit a module to jam your opponent than a module that might stop him jamming you if he has jammers on...

sgb

Ishana
Minmatar
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2006.05.05 07:19:00 - [120]
 

Edited by: Ishana on 05/05/2006 07:20:44
Originally by: Gierling
I'm a BIG fan of the idea to change ECM so that it affects offensive modules instead of locks.

That way Its not so frustrating, it still has the same NET affect, but you can get off a shot or a jam of your own while your doing it.

The important thing is that it needs to be per cycle.

So Say Nafri has successfully jammed me for say 12 points, and I'm in a Mega (22 point strength). SO every time my (Affected) guns are suppossed to fire (or ECM or Nos etc) there is a 54% chance of them not firing, in 5.4 seconds the gun rolls again and can fire if it passes.


I like this. It was one of my problems with this system since there should be a solution to when excactly does the jamming kick in on offencive modules. this might work nicely.

Originally by: Gierling
Also there should be a limit as to how many modules an ECM can prevent at any one given time. That should be skill based, So if Nafri has a jam on me with the skill at 5, then 5 weapons or NOS or ECM will fail during that "Jam cycle". If he only has one jammer on me, the 5 guns fail, and any additional guns fire.

If he only has the skill to 3 then only 3 failures per jam cycle, so he'd need to put another jammer on me to do what he did with the one with the skill at 5.

This would lead to a decrease in the offensive power of the enemy ship, however it does not end thier fight immedietly, it still lets them fight back albeit in a limited capacity, and introduces an avenue for player skill through trying to bluff the jam, activate all your guns until youve failed 5 times, THEN hitting your nos on him.




Jup I agree completely. (see my earlier post)

The advantage of a system like this is also that it has a build in stacking penalty. (even from multiple ships) And it's also a much more balanced system when fighting ships outside your class.
example (numbers can be tweaked):
a frigate 1 jamms frigate 2. frigate 2 loses 3 (of 5) offencive modules. making him pretty dead just like currently.
However if the same frigate jams a BS chances are that he will jamm less modules due to the increased sensor strenght of the BS. Therefor if frigate 1 jamms BS1 then BS1 will only lose 2(of 9) offencive modules. And continue to wtf pwn the frigate.
Now if it would have been a BS vs BS fight it would still be very interesting to neutralise about 2 offencive modules on the hostile BS because it will definatly tip the scales your way. (but not as much as with the current system.)

With some tweaking I really thing this could be a great solution to the current EW problem. I would really love a dev to give his views on this system... but I always doubt they read threads like this... Sad


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