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Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.05.04 13:39:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Forsch
Edited by: Forsch on 04/05/2006 12:54:41

Originally by: Hugh Ruka
ppl want to either completely remove ecm or making it function in such a way that it is not worth over tracking disruptors/sensor damps.

Aha! Why SHOULD it be worth more than TDs/SDs?? If anything, it should be of equal use.
Right now, it's much much better. It cannot stay that way.


Compare ECM boats with the others...

als a tracking disruptor works wonders against a gunship Wink. The only problem thy have is their small range

Ishana
Minmatar
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2006.05.04 13:44:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Ishana on 04/05/2006 13:54:36
EDIT: oh I see you had me on that list aswell... well anyway I refined my "deactivate random modules" idea a bit to random offencive modules like I explain below:

Ok I had an idea to revamp the current EW to affect individual modules instead of the sensor lock.
Don't flame me for it, it's just an idea and numbers should be tweaked, but it would work something like this:

Multispectral jammer:

emitts jamming signals to disrupt a ships offencive systems.

activation cost: 120 Energy
optimal range: 30 km
activation time / duration: 20,00 sec
accuracy falloff :15 km
gravimetric strength: 4
ladar strength: 4
magnetometric strength: 4
radar strength: 4
max. effected OFFENCIVE modules: 4 (random number could be more/less)

Description: depending on the targets sensor strenght you have a chance to "deactivate" random OFFENCIVE modules for 20sec. (offencive meaning anything concord shoots you for)


With the current system when jamming someone you have the following outcomes:
a.) x% chance nothing happens
b.) y% chance 100% of the targets offencive modules are neutralised

With my idea only effecting offencive modules you would get:
a.) x% chance nothing happens
b.) y% chance 1-4 random offencive modules are "turned off".

So basiclaly it does the same as the current system, but it's more likely you will be effected a bit, but less likely every offencive module is effected. Using multiple jammers would result in a better spread over the complete list of offencive mods, but it would be hard to get all of em. (basicaly the jammer selects a random module of the complete list and checks if the jamm is succesfull)
Ofcourse after the jamming cycle is complete you don;t need to online your modules, like you would when you offline them yourself.

Just an idea.

Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2006.05.04 13:49:00 - [33]
 

fitting wise i'm a ewar n00b ... but ...

imho tracking disruptors and sensor dampeners got the problem that their counters are commonly used ... sensor booster and tracking computers ... now i'm wondering - how often are ECCMs fitted and how useful are they (besides of the backdraft that they take up a precious slot) ... does fitting an ECCM makes a notable difference??

Terrak2
Flora inc.
Posted - 2006.05.04 14:10:00 - [34]
 

Halve the strengths of all ECM modules, increase bonuses on EW ships, and make it so ECM doesn't un-lock, just stop him from activating modules (as someone else said).

ECM = fix't

Gronsak
Amarr
Posted - 2006.05.04 14:14:00 - [35]
 

atm its ******ed, every pvp ship in game is fitting ecm from frigs upto BS and if you dont then you loose!

the devs have seen this as a problem hence the EW suggestion thred they wrote

ecm needs to be at lest halfed in strengt, all types from tracking desrupters to damps to ECM

one mid slot tracking desrupter effecting 8 high slots and criping them with -65% range and tracking is just overpowered!! 3 damps which use very little cap completly stoping 8 high slots and offensive mid slots again way overpwoered. ability of ECM mod fitted on a FRIG shutting down 8 high slots and any offensive mid slots with a 85% chance within the fight for 20sec again stupidly overpowered

Scalor Valentis
Minmatar
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.05.04 14:18:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Gronsak
atm its ******ed, every pvp ship in game is fitting ecm from frigs upto BS and if you dont then you loose!

the devs have seen this as a problem hence the EW suggestion thred they wrote

ecm needs to be at lest halfed in strengt, all types from tracking desrupters to damps to ECM

one mid slot tracking desrupter effecting 8 high slots and criping them with -65% range and tracking is just overpowered!! 3 damps which use very little cap completly stoping 8 high slots and offensive mid slots again way overpwoered. ability of ECM mod fitted on a FRIG shutting down 8 high slots and any offensive mid slots with a 85% chance within the fight for 20sec again stupidly overpowered


this is not the problem

Problem is that the general intention of the "random" system is not workking out.

There is to hig chanse of jamming despite sensor strenghts.

Gronsak
Amarr
Posted - 2006.05.04 14:47:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Scalor Valentis
Originally by: Gronsak
stuff


this is not the problem

Problem is that the general intention of the "random" system is not workking out.

There is to hig chanse of jamming despite sensor strenghts.


what?

Lusimdoor Lighitbrine
Gallente
Demonic Ripple
Posted - 2006.05.04 14:50:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Lusimdoor Lighitbrine on 04/05/2006 14:55:01
Originally by: Nafri
You have 6mio in gunnery, I have 6mio in electronics Razz



no honestly, all this talking about "omg, I jammed a geddon with a matari jammer" is rubbish.
Its a luck based system, so you can be lucky... or not.

For every story you may tell, I can tell you about how my 13 strength jammers missed to jamm a megathron for 3 cycles... although I was using 3 of them on him...

And before you want to have the old system back, back then I permajammed 4-5 BS easily Wink


This is true. its a game or chance and sometimes u get lucky and sometimes u dont. i have had a full rack of 8 t2 multis on my scorp and missed a BS 4 times in a row but got a Dread everytime. its a game of luck and you all cry about it becouse u say its to powerful but like someone said the old ways where like 1 jammer took a ship out of a fight for good now its MUCH better. if u want to counter ECM get better luck or run in a group with a jammer urself. So its something that it in eve like 10000 other things that people want to cry about. grow up and get over the fact that there are somethings that are around that not everyone uses but it powerfull when used right

god if the miners cried out that mining lasers should be able to damage ships top help themselfs protect themselfs from pirates u would all lough so i lough at all of u that cry about ECM, tracking disrupters, and dampners. its simple get over it and play the GAME.


now lets see how many spam haters try and flame me......why are there so many cry babies, and yes i lose ships to ECM/tracking/dampners all the time. like 1 ship a week so yes ik there ways on both side of the street.

Gronsak
Amarr
Posted - 2006.05.04 14:54:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Gronsak on 04/05/2006 14:55:06
Originally by: Lusimdoor Lighitbrine
Originally by: Nafri
You have 6mio in gunnery, I have 6mio in electronics Razz



no honestly, all this talking about "omg, I jammed a geddon with a matari jammer" is rubbish.
Its a luck based system, so you can be lucky... or not.

For every story you may tell, I can tell you about how my 13 strength jammers missed to jamm a megathron for 3 cycles... although I was using 3 of them on him...

And before you want to have the old system back, back then I permajammed 4-5 BS easily Wink


This is true. its a game or chance and sometimes u get lucky and sometimes u dont. i have had a full rack of 8 t2 multis on my scorp and missed a BS 4 times in a row but got a Dread everytime. its a game of luck and you all cry about it becouse u say its to powerful but like someone said the old ways where like 1 jammer took a ship out of a fight for good now its MUCH better. if u want to counter ECM get better luck or run in a group with a jammer urself. So its something that it in eve like 10000 other things that people want to cry about. grow up and get over the fact that there are somethings that are around that not everyone uses but it powerfull when used right




why are you posting, you dont have a clue about anything your talking about, at lest nafri knows that atm her ecm is uber and doesnt want it kicked in the balls

your talking some crap about non chance based system, which has nothing to do with this thred. ppl are saying increase ship sensor strength so its still chance based but not overpowered like it is

powerful when used right? is that a fact, then why do i dual account with an alt in a griffen with 4 ECM, took lesss than 2 weeks to train him, and he basicly shuts down who ever i am fighting, that isnt overpwoered??

now go away

smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.04 14:58:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: smallgreenblur on 04/05/2006 14:59:06
Originally by: Lusimdoor Lighitbrine
Originally by: Nafri
stuff


This is true. its a game or chance and sometimes u get lucky and sometimes u dont. i have had a full rack of 8 t2 multis on my scorp and missed a BS 4 times in a row but got a Dread everytime. its a game of luck and you all cry about it becouse u say its to powerful but like someone said the old ways where like 1 jammer took a ship out of a fight for good now its MUCH better. if u want to counter ECM get better luck or run in a group with a jammer urself. So its something that it in eve like 10000 other things that people want to cry about. grow up and get over the fact that there are somethings that are around that not everyone uses but it powerfull when used right

god if the miners cried out that mining lasers should be able to damage ships top help themselfs protect themselfs from pirates u would all lough so i lough at all of u that cry about ECM, tracking disrupters, and dampners. its simple get over it and play the GAME.


I'm not whining. I sincerely believe that ECM is currently overpowered. If you would like to look at my post, and indeed the rest of the thread, you will see that many people are in agreement with me.

Personally I use ecm, on every ship I fly with more than 4-5 mids. This doesn't change the fact that I think it needs a revamp. As you will see from the thread by TomB at the top of this page, also quoted in my origional post, there is a problem with ECM that needs adressing.

I have also adressed the issue that this is 'balanced' because there is a chance of ecm not working at all, however this doesn't change the fact that ecm appears to be an 'I win' button if you happen to be in a fight against larger numbers of ships.

In short, please read the threads, think about the topic, then post, and we can all sit down like adults (even if you're not) and have a nice chat about it, and maybe we can hammer out a solution.

Edit: 'go and play the game', whilst a cunning and well thought out argument, is currently impossible since i am in the middle of lots of essays at my university computer room, and using these forums as a welcome diversion every half hour or so. Final year sucks.

sgb

Lusimdoor Lighitbrine
Gallente
Demonic Ripple
Posted - 2006.05.04 14:59:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Gronsak
Edited by: Gronsak on 04/05/2006 14:55:06
Originally by: Lusimdoor Lighitbrine
Originally by: Nafri
You have 6mio in gunnery, I have 6mio in electronics Razz



no honestly, all this talking about "omg, I jammed a geddon with a matari jammer" is rubbish.
Its a luck based system, so you can be lucky... or not.

For every story you may tell, I can tell you about how my 13 strength jammers missed to jamm a megathron for 3 cycles... although I was using 3 of them on him...

And before you want to have the old system back, back then I permajammed 4-5 BS easily Wink


This is true. its a game or chance and sometimes u get lucky and sometimes u dont. i have had a full rack of 8 t2 multis on my scorp and missed a BS 4 times in a row but got a Dread everytime. its a game of luck and you all cry about it becouse u say its to powerful but like someone said the old ways where like 1 jammer took a ship out of a fight for good now its MUCH better. if u want to counter ECM get better luck or run in a group with a jammer urself. So its something that it in eve like 10000 other things that people want to cry about. grow up and get over the fact that there are somethings that are around that not everyone uses but it powerfull when used right




why are you posting, you dont have a clue about anything your talking about, at lest nafri knows that atm her ecm is uber and doesnt want it kicked in the balls

your talking some crap about non chance based system, which has nothing to do with this thred. ppl are saying increase ship sensor strength so its still chance based but not overpowered like it is

powerful when used right? is that a fact, then why do i dual account with an alt in a griffen with 4 ECM, took lesss than 2 weeks to train him, and he basicly shuts down who ever i am fighting, that isnt overpwoered??

now go away


Gronsak u cry becouse ECM take no training time at all. yes this is true. and yes a griffin/bb/scorp with ECM is EASY to train for but who cares. u use ECM to ur advantage just like about 10k other players so im not seeing how u can cry about something that everyone is doing/using and beside it WILL be nerfed like everything else in eve so its just a matter of time

Gronsak
Amarr
Posted - 2006.05.04 15:02:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Lusimdoor Lighitbrine


Gronsak u cry becouse ECM take no training time at all. yes this is true. and yes a griffin/bb/scorp with ECM is EASY to train for but who cares. u use ECM to ur advantage just like about 10k other players so im not seeing how u can cry about something that everyone is doing/using and beside it WILL be nerfed like everything else in eve so its just a matter of time


i told you to go away Evil or Very Mad

so from one, omg its ok and only good in certain situations to yeh mate i agree with you its powerfull and easy to train for so lets all use it and be happy

completly different song your sining,

tbh do you know what side you actually support. like i said go away dont post until you think for your own, then if by some ecm like luck you do have some thoughts come back and tell usRolling Eyes

being a ***** today but ppl saying ecm isnt overpowered just want to hold onto their toys for as long as possible!

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.05.04 15:04:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Testy Mctest
Originally by: Dark Shikari

2. Jammers prevent you from activating modules on enemies, NOT locking them.



I like that, too. Makes them a bit less powerful but still lets them do what they do. Makes frigs with Jammers less ridiculous when they get lucky jamming a battleship. Avoids battleship pilot having to go make a cup of tea while he relocks.


I completely agree with something along these lines.

It's really frustrating when I get a massive bonus to tracking disruptors, yet fit a jammer over a TD almost 90% of the time. Jammers work on both missiles, turret and drone ships (if you are fast), even when you miss it takes them forever to lock you again, no stacking penalies, jammmers prevent all types of offensive modules including nos, jammers prevent defensive locking as well; i.e. projected eccm, remote armor/shield mods.

Where is the drawback? If you can mount more than 3 you are pretty much guaranteed to shut down ANY offense. The real trick is to make sure that the Scorp, BB, etc. are all still perfectly suited to jamming and keep jamming useful.

PS - make TD's effect missile explosion radius. That way it works on all ships. They can still nos you Crying or Very sad.

Nyxus


smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.04 15:04:00 - [44]
 

Unusually for me, I'm in agreement with Gronsak. Please go and read the thread before posting. Also, please post an argument not a flame.

And thirdly (and this applies to you too Gronsak Razz) please for the love of god learn what the 'shift' and 'enter' buttons are for.

sgb

Rockadeus
Posted - 2006.05.04 15:05:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Gronsak

if you throw a coin in the air there is 50% chance it gets a heads.
what is the chance that you get at lest 1 head in two throws? its 75%.


Erm, no, it's 50%.

Lusimdoor Lighitbrine
Gallente
Demonic Ripple
Posted - 2006.05.04 15:05:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: smallgreenblur
Edited by: smallgreenblur on 04/05/2006 14:59:06
Originally by: Lusimdoor Lighitbrine
Originally by: Nafri
stuff


This is true. its a game or chance and sometimes u get lucky and sometimes u dont. i have had a full rack of 8 t2 multis on my scorp and missed a BS 4 times in a row but got a Dread everytime. its a game of luck and you all cry about it becouse u say its to powerful but like someone said the old ways where like 1 jammer took a ship out of a fight for good now its MUCH better. if u want to counter ECM get better luck or run in a group with a jammer urself. So its something that it in eve like 10000 other things that people want to cry about. grow up and get over the fact that there are somethings that are around that not everyone uses but it powerfull when used right

god if the miners cried out that mining lasers should be able to damage ships top help themselfs protect themselfs from pirates u would all lough so i lough at all of u that cry about ECM, tracking disrupters, and dampners. its simple get over it and play the GAME.


I'm not whining. I sincerely believe that ECM is currently overpowered. If you would like to look at my post, and indeed the rest of the thread, you will see that many people are in agreement with me.

Personally I use ecm, on every ship I fly with more than 4-5 mids. This doesn't change the fact that I think it needs a revamp. As you will see from the thread by TomB at the top of this page, also quoted in my origional post, there is a problem with ECM that needs adressing.

I have also adressed the issue that this is 'balanced' because there is a chance of ecm not working at all, however this doesn't change the fact that ecm appears to be an 'I win' button if you happen to be in a fight against larger numbers of ships.

In short, please read the threads, think about the topic, then post, and we can all sit down like adults (even if you're not) and have a nice chat about it, and maybe we can hammer out a solution.

Edit: 'go and play the game', whilst a cunning and well thought out argument, is currently impossible since i am in the middle of lots of essays at my university computer room, and using these forums as a welcome diversion every half hour or so. Final year sucks.

sgb


Smallgreenblur we can sit downlike adults and yes we can find a answer to this "problem" but in the end u give it like 2-3 months tops and u will see,CCP will nerf ecm/tracking/dampners and mostlikely mining EQ next. its just a matter of time before everything is "perfect" the people that take this game like a job. its a game and in EVERY game there things that people dont like but they are left alone until to many people cry about it becouse they die to it and take advanage of the low skills needed. So i just see this as another way for people to conplain about something that most of these people do themselfs, becouse like most of eve and other games things are nerfed and made "fair" when all that has to be done is they have to get friends and do things in groups and stop trying to be superman and going solo

Gronsak
Amarr
Posted - 2006.05.04 15:07:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Gronsak on 04/05/2006 15:06:51
Originally by: Rockadeus
Originally by: Gronsak

if you throw a coin in the air there is 50% chance it gets a heads.
what is the chance that you get at lest 1 head in two throws? its 75%.


Erm, no, it's 50%.


is that a fact! Rolling EyesRolling Eyes

anyone want to tell this dude who is right?

smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.04 15:10:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: smallgreenblur on 04/05/2006 15:10:56
Originally by: Lusimdoor Lighitbrine

Originally by: sgb
Originally by: Lusimdoor Lighitbrine
stuff


I'm not whining. I sincerely believe that ECM is currently overpowered. If you would like to look at my post, and indeed the rest of the thread, you will see that many people are in agreement with me.

Personally I use ecm, on every ship I fly with more than 4-5 mids. This doesn't change the fact that I think it needs a revamp. As you will see from the thread by TomB at the top of this page, also quoted in my origional post, there is a problem with ECM that needs adressing.

I have also adressed the issue that this is 'balanced' because there is a chance of ecm not working at all, however this doesn't change the fact that ecm appears to be an 'I win' button if you happen to be in a fight against larger numbers of ships.

In short, please read the threads, think about the topic, then post, and we can all sit down like adults (even if you're not) and have a nice chat about it, and maybe we can hammer out a solution.

Edit: 'go and play the game', whilst a cunning and well thought out argument, is currently impossible since i am in the middle of lots of essays at my university computer room, and using these forums as a welcome diversion every half hour or so. Final year sucks.

sgb


Smallgreenblur we can sit down like adults and yes we can find a answer to this "problem" but in the end u give it like 2-3 months tops and u will see,CCP will nerf ecm/tracking/dampners and mostlikely mining EQ next. its just a matter of time before everything is "perfect" the people that take this game like a job. its a game and in EVERY game there things that people dont like but they are left alone until to many people cry about it becouse they die to it and take advanage of the low skills needed. So i just see this as another way for people to conplain about something that most of these people do themselfs, becouse like most of eve and other games things are nerfed and made "fair" when all that has to be done is they have to get friends and do things in groups and stop trying to be superman and going solo


Yes, ecm will be nerfed. Yes the players should have an input to this. Yes I use ECM myself. Yes I think it needs looking at.

Yes this thread is a way to address these issues.

Your argument currently consists of 'it's not worth arguing because ECM will be nerfed anyway'. Almost as good as 'stop arguing and go play the game', but not quite in the same league. Now post an opinion on ECM or shush.

sgb

Padaxes
Minmatar
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2006.05.04 15:13:00 - [49]
 

I still want it to go back to the old way :( *sniff*

Oh wait im not allowed to say that!

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.05.04 15:14:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Rockadeus
Originally by: Gronsak

if you throw a coin in the air there is 50% chance it gets a heads.
what is the chance that you get at lest 1 head in two throws? its 75%.


Erm, no, it's 50%.


No, that is incorrect.

Go the the ecm pages and look it up. Statistics don't work as common sense says they would. Here is an example of how to calculate it and why it doesn't work like you would assume.

How many dice must be thrown to give a better than 50% chance that at least one of the dice will show a one (1) (a single "snake eye")?
If one die is thrown, the chances of not rolling a one (1) are

5
--- = 0.8333
6

If two dice are thrown, the chances of not rolling a one (1) are

5 5
--- X -- = 0.6944
6 6

If three dice are thrown, the chances of not rolling a one (1) are

5 5 5
--- X -- X -- = 0.5787
6 6 6

If four dice are thrown, the chances of not rolling a one (1) are

5 5 5 5
--- X -- X -- X -- = 0.4823
6 6 6 6

So four dice give better than even chance (over 50% chance) of rolling a one (1).

To view the problem in another way, note that the probability of rolling a one (1) is 1/6, ie, P(one) = 1/6. If you roll a die ("one dice") 60 times you will, on average, get 10 ones (1s). But that does not mean that if you roll a die 6 times that you will have to wait until the 6th roll to get the first one (1). Because 3/6 = 1/2 it might seem that on average the first one (1) would appear halfway between the first and the sixth roll:

1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th

but the middle is between the 3rd and the 4th!

Real world example but you can apply the calcs in the same way.

Nyxus


smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.04 15:20:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: smallgreenblur on 04/05/2006 15:23:56
Edited by: smallgreenblur on 04/05/2006 15:22:18
Edited by: smallgreenblur on 04/05/2006 15:21:03
Originally by: Rockadeus
Originally by: Gronsak

if you throw a coin in the air there is 50% chance it gets a heads.
what is the chance that you get at lest 1 head in two throws? its 75%.


Erm, no, it's 50%.


Lets just do a bit of statistics 101. From what I remember of my A-Levels:

Combinations of one coin thrown twice:

HH
HT
TH
TT

So the chance of you having 2 heads in a row (unless you have a very obliging girlfriend) are 1/4. The chance of getting one head is significantly more, 3/4.

However, should you be throwing two coins at the same time (2 jammers) the combinations are as follows:

H1H2
H2H1
H1T2
T1H2
T1T2
T2T1

Where H1 = coin 1 is a head.

Ergo we have the follwing change: Chance of getting one head 4/6 or 66.6%, Chance of getting 2 heads 2/6 or 33%.

Anyway, just a bit of stats for the unenlightened amongst you, I'm a bit rusty on the old formulae but combinations with few variables are easy enough to work out.

sgb

Edit: Nyx you are obviously better than stats than me but you are forgetting that the chances when you roll one twice and the chances when you roll two at once are different. And i think there's something wrong with my maths. Damn. I always hated that A-level.


Rockadeus
Posted - 2006.05.04 15:22:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Rockadeus on 04/05/2006 15:24:53
Originally by: Nyxus
Originally by: Rockadeus
Originally by: Gronsak

if you throw a coin in the air there is 50% chance it gets a heads.
what is the chance that you get at lest 1 head in two throws? its 75%.


Erm, no, it's 50%.


No, that is incorrect.


No, your math is incorrect for this situation. We're not dealing with parallel events, we're dealing with consecutive events. We want at least 1 success in two throws. First chance, 50%. If it's heads, we stop. If it's not, we toss again. Second chance, 50%. Either way, we stop, because we've now had two tosses. The odds would only affect each other if you had two jammers working in parallel.

edit: Goddamnit smallgreenblur. I'll have my revenge.

Gronsak
Amarr
Posted - 2006.05.04 15:30:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Rockadeus
Edited by: Rockadeus on 04/05/2006 15:24:53
Originally by: Nyxus
Originally by: Rockadeus
Originally by: Gronsak

if you throw a coin in the air there is 50% chance it gets a heads.
what is the chance that you get at lest 1 head in two throws? its 75%.


Erm, no, it's 50%.


No, that is incorrect.


No, your math is incorrect for this situation. We're not dealing with parallel events, we're dealing with consecutive events. We want at least 1 success in two throws. First chance, 50%. If it's heads, we stop. If it's not, we toss again. Second chance, 50%. Either way, we stop, because we've now had two tosses. The odds would only affect each other if you had two jammers working in parallel.

edit: Goddamnit smallgreenblur. I'll have my revenge.


what is the difference in useing 2 jammers at exactly the same time or the one for two cycles, its the same chance. 2 jammers if doing 50% each activeated at the same time gives a 75% chance of jamming. a single jammer put on once has 50% chance of jamming and then 50% again, so to jam at lest once in two goes again its 75%

Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.05.04 15:31:00 - [54]
 

probabilty math is a bit more complicated than most imagine


but you should alwas remember:

Dices have no memory, a dice doesnt care how many times its thrown ugh

smallgreenblur
Minmatar
Irrepressible Mirth
Posted - 2006.05.04 15:32:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: smallgreenblur on 04/05/2006 15:34:17
Originally by: Gronsak
what is the difference in useing 2 jammers at exactly the same time or the one for two cycles, its the same chance. 2 jammers if doing 50% each activeated at the same time gives a 75% chance of jamming. a single jammer put on once has 50% chance of jamming and then 50% again, so to jam at lest once in two goes again its 75%


Read my bit on combinations. Should explain it. It's stats, nasty math stuff.

Edit - Yarr to Rock, you cannot beat my forum whorage skills today.

And stop derailing my 'how can we fix ecm' thread to stats discussions! Razz

sgb

Rockadeus
Posted - 2006.05.04 15:34:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Gronsak

what is the difference in useing 2 jammers at exactly the same time or the one for two cycles, its the same chance. 2 jammers if doing 50% each activeated at the same time gives a 75% chance of jamming. a single jammer put on once has 50% chance of jamming and then 50% again, so to jam at lest once in two goes again its 75%


Parallel events stack, consecutive do not. Your odds will never change in a consecutive event. Using your math, if I play the lotto with the same set of numbers 1000 times, my odds increase. They do not. My odds stay the same for each one, since the outcome is selected independantly on each one.

BlackPrince
Trinity Nova
Trinity Nova Alliance
Posted - 2006.05.04 15:42:00 - [57]
 

One blackbird fitted with projected ECCM can nullify 2 Scorpions. On top of that, Projected ECCM is bugged in several ways which make it far superior (end user wise) than ECM. When my Corp goes up against other's using ECM we just have every battleship in the fleet fit one projected eccm and either 1) passive eccm unit or 1) active eccm unit. While not foolproof, it cuts the jam rates down to something manageable (~20%). A skill commander can then successfully use this to counter anyone ship being jammed if he so chooses or, using the ProjECCM ("Dirtybird") boat can completely nullify the enemy's EWAR capability. Btw, this took myself and 5 corpmates 15 minutes to figure out and an additional hour of testing to perfect.

EWAR is fine, the problem is uncreative people who really haven't dedicated even a minimal amount of thought and time on how to effectively counter it. It's one more dimension on the battlefield that commanders need to consider beyond what they currently do. It adds a depth to this game (tactically) lacking in most others. I think the biggest complain most folks have is that in order to counter it they have to use up one of their precious slots. Considering most on these boards are the min/maxxing ubar flavor of the week I want a pwnmobile type, this is of course unacceptable. To anyone familiar with combined arms operations and the employment of actual tactics and countermeasures, it's fairly straightforward.


Xanther
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.05.04 15:44:00 - [58]
 

First of all, Lusimdoor Lighitbrine: stop posting, all you're doing is being flamebait. The stated point of this thread was to discuss changes that woudld be balance... most of what you've done is thrown crap like an angry monkey and attempted half successfully to derail the topic.

Now back to topic.

The more you change the more you risk killing ECM totaly. I am not a EW expert but I have used it enough recently to understand how it currently works. The most frustrating part is dropping target locks. and its the main part of how ships can still be unable to do anything. What I think happens now is that when the jam drops, you have to retarget... and by the time you do you get jammed again.
The system IS based on chance... I've gone from perma-lock to no jamming within the space of the same fight, I've also been jamed right after relocking.
What I'd like to see tested is that jaming prevents you from using any modules that affect other ships that would normally require targeting, but your keep your lock. If that's too powerful... you could have the targets stay locked but have a "reacquistion time" before you can open fire... perhaps 1/2 to 1/3 of origional lock time. This gets a ship back in the fight faster after the jam drops but still makes ECM a threat. If that's not enough, a short cooldown time could be added.

Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2006.05.04 15:48:00 - [59]
 

I quite liked j0sephines idea of making mid-slot ECM modules more of a defensive module - only breaking the lock of a ship targeting you.

Could always then revert the Scorpion back to being more of a Tier-1 Railgun boat.

And/or make a high slot 'offensive ECM' module that takes up significant grid/cpu. That would certainly knock these Nosferatu+ ECM Dominixs down a peg Wink




Nafri
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.05.04 15:49:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Gabriel Karade
I quite liked j0sephines idea of making mid-slot ECM modules more of a defensive module - only breaking the lock of a ship targeting you.

Could always then revert the Scorpion back to being more of a Tier-1 Railgun boat.

And/or make a high slot 'offensive ECM' module that takes up significant grid/cpu. That would certainly knock these Nosferatu+ ECM Dominixs down a peg Wink






Then I want my skillpoints back Razz


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