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Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.04.30 13:16:00 - [1]
 

It's pretty common knowledge that the raptor and ares are the worst interceptors in the game and need fixing. Why, do those not in the know ask? Simple. Let's compare (Raptor first then Ares):

Raptor

CPU 150
PG 30
4/3/3 slot layout w/ 2 turret hardpoints and 2 missile hardpoints
Bonuses: 5% hybrid damage, 10% hybrid range, %5 sig radius and kinetic missile damage per level

Crow

CPU 150
PG 35
4/3/3 slot layout w/ 3 launcher hardpoints and 2 turret hardpoints

Bonuses: 10% Kinetic missile damage, 5% sig radius and 10% missile velocity

Compared to the raptor, the crow has the same slot layout, however, it has no split bonus problem that the raptor has, and much worse, the raptor has 5 less grid. The last is a key problem as there is no reason I can see that this should be the case. The Raptor has the same number of slots, same configuration of slots, and has the same number of slots to mount weapons in as the crow, but less grid to make use of them. In addition the raptor has 2 gun bonuses, but only 2 turret slots to make use of them. This again makes no sense. The crow is already the pre-eminent missile using interceptor, so there's no need for a second caldari interceptor that uses missiles as a primary weapon. The lack of turret hardpoints on this ship therefore limits it's utility to a great degree, thus causing the crow to be a far more popular and flexible ship.

So how do we fix this issue? I propose the following:

Raptor MK2

CPU 150
PG 35
4/3/3 slot layout with 3 turret hardpoints and 1 missile hardpoint
Bonus: Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 10% Bonus to Small Hybrid Turret range per level Interceptors Skill Bonus: 5% reduction in Signature Radius and 7.5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level

The above provides a long range (rail) based caldari interceptor with the bonuses and turret layout situated to support it. I believe that the above would fix the issues with the raptor and allow it to become the ship that it should be. Next, the Ares:

Ares

CPU 150
PG 30
4/2/4 slot layout with 2 turret hardpoints and 2 launcher hardpoints
Bonus: 5% small hybrid damage and tracking speed, 5% reduced signature and thermal missile damage per level

Taranis

CPU 150
PG 35
4/3/3 slot layout with 3 turret hardpoints
Bonus: 10% small hybrid damage per level, 5% sig radius and small hybrid tracking speed per level

Compared to the taranis, the ares suffers from many deficiencies. First, its' defined role is unpopular, that of a missile using interceptor. Gallente ships in general use either drones or hybrid weapons, and therefore gallente players have their skills focused in these areas. Any ship that uses missiles in general is unpopular. However this is the concept behind the ship and I really see no way to fix this without radically changing its' design. Second is the mixed bonuses again. Since this follows the idea of the ship I again see no way without a radical redesign to solve this problem. The third is the lack of grid on the Ares. Again, for no reason that can be easily seen, this ship is missing 5 PG when compared to the taranis, even though it has 1 more weapon using slot. The effect of this is that even though it has 4 low slots, one must be used for a MAPC for even anything over the smallest fittings or you run out of powergrid. This turns the one advantage you have over the taranis, the extra low slot, into no real advantage at all. I therefore propose the following fix:

Ares MK2

CPU 125
PG 38
4/2/4 slot layout with 2 turret and 2 missile hardpoints
Bonus: Same as before but 7.5% small hybrid tracking speed per interceptor level

Reasons: The powergrid and CPU are now identical to that of the tristan, which has the exact same high slot layout. This should fix the low grid issue and allow it to use the 4th low slot to maxiumum effect.

Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.04.30 13:19:00 - [2]
 

I don't think that the Ares will ever be popular, but at least it might be somewhat used under this plan because of the increased grid and ability to be more heavily plated than the taranis. CCP please place some thought into this and have a look at these 2 ships.

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.04.30 13:32:00 - [3]
 

I'd like the 3/3/4 Ares which was the initial suggested change, and was changed to getting a highslot rather than the mid at the last moment.

Gai Servos
Posted - 2006.04.30 13:38:00 - [4]
 

Raptor mk2 would only be better claw, so no. No über ships anymore to caldari. Those changes would overpower raptor.

Rocla2006
Posted - 2006.04.30 13:47:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Rocla2006 on 30/04/2006 13:47:26
Ares
High Slots 3 (2 turret)
Mid Slots 3
Low Slots 4
Drone Bay 50m3

Bonus: 10% Damage Bonus to light scout drone damage + hitpoints, 7.5% Bonus to Drone Tracking, 5% sig radius.

I dont know how balanced that would be, drone dps is still only about 140dps. Would be fun to have a drone inty though.

Cruz
Out of Order
Posted - 2006.04.30 13:49:00 - [6]
 

I can't believe after all these years they still haven't fixed the raptor....

Mr Bondy
The Hoodie Mafia
Cosa Nostra.
Posted - 2006.04.30 13:50:00 - [7]
 

The Ares was at least useable before the missile patch - where you could have 2x 125mm and 2x standard launchers

but now unless your planning on fitting 2 MAPC's its really difficult to get anythign worthwile out of this ship

Having said that - Ares gets the most 'bang for your buck' at only 6mil each

p.s both these ships need makeing better Very Happy

Artica Silverfox
Arctic Productions
Posted - 2006.04.30 13:53:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Rocla2006
Edited by: Rocla2006 on 30/04/2006 13:47:26
Ares
High Slots 3 (2 turret)
Mid Slots 3
Low Slots 4
Drone Bay 50m3

Bonus: 10% Damage Bonus to light scout drone damage + hitpoints, 7.5% Bonus to Drone Tracking, 5% sig radius.

I dont know how balanced that would be, drone dps is still only about 140dps. Would be fun to have a drone inty though.


It is a Roden Shipyards design. They rarely have drones and always have missiles. Unless you want to change the model it will stay a missile inty.

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.04.30 13:53:00 - [9]
 

That Raptor would certainly be used a lot, but it should be noted that the tracking bonus isn't appropriate on a ship that's meant to be long ranged. I fail to think of a better, more appropriate, bonus, though.

The Ares is still lacking. The reason for this is that more powergrid simply isn't going to help it. 2 mid slots is absolutely useless now a days since everyone seems to fit at least 2 stabs on their ships. What needs to be done is to pimp it's damage even more, or to change it to be just-another-interceptor with three mid slots.
Maya, 3-3-4 would make it usable, but not useful. Need more than that.

I say:
High - 5 (3T 3L)
Mid - 2
Low - 4
PG - 40
CPU - 160
Mass - 1,000,000 KG (this is an effective 6% increase in agility and MWD/AB effectiveness)
-- This increases damage output a lot, and makes it slightly easier to choose which damage mod type you want to emphasize on with the other sort of weapon system as additional backup. It should be slightly ahead of the Taranis in terms of dps, but then again, it's missing a mid slot and as such still isn't quite as useful/dangerous.

That said, Tuxford needs, when he gets time, to take a serious look on the whole Interceptor frigate design concept. They all need balancing, and they all need to be adapted to modern EVE (they were the first T2 ships to be released)

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.04.30 13:55:00 - [10]
 

Raptor is a nicer ship many people give her credit for, but requires Interceptors skill at lvl.5 to reach full damage output, while more popular inties can do with just l.4 ... so often when you encounter her, she's handicapped.

That said, the tight grid is kind of issue since Raptor has to mount more turrets than Crow, and the railguns use at least as much grid as standard missile launchers or even more (for 150mm ones) ... so she winds up quite harder to fit :/

Shaemell Buttleson
Posted - 2006.04.30 15:32:00 - [11]
 

^^Agree plus the Ares isnt that bad either. PPL said for ages the Stileto sucks as well compared to Claws but I'm seeing more of them used all the time these days. All that was needed was a little lateral thought.


Sarmaul
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.04.30 15:36:00 - [12]
 

I've got a corpmate that beats most ceptors in his raptor Embarassed

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.04.30 15:41:00 - [13]
 

The Oneiros is a Roden design and has no launchers, and the biggest drone bay of it's class. There's three Roden ships in game, all of them ****ed. Devs certainly need to do something about it.
Roden is the perfect corporation for CCP to use as the BLASTER specialist corporation (Roden SHOULD have been the designer of Deimos, Astarte, Enyo, etc). CreoDron is obviously DRONE specialized (Ishkur, Ishtar, Eos, etc). Duvolle... no one can explain why Duvolle designs ships considering their description states they are more of a think-tank R&D corp than actually aplied knowledge. Thus Duvolle is the perfect choice for the WEIRD ship designs (Stealth Bomber, Logistics, Recon, etc)
Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson
^^Agree plus the Ares isnt that bad either. PPL said for ages the Stileto sucks as well compared to Claws but I'm seeing more of them used all the time these days. All that was needed was a little lateral thought.

Oh, it is that bad, only worse!

The stiletto is a VERY GOOD interceptor because it has enough mid slots to tackle people these days. Ares doesn't have the luxury of being good without loads of damage (and incidentally, Arse doesn't have loads of damage nor even good speed!)

Sarmaul
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.04.30 15:42:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Ithildin
Arse


nice nickname for the ship Wink

Lygos
Amarr
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2006.04.30 16:09:00 - [15]
 

I would love to improve the Raptor a little bit midwise, but at the same time, why design it to fill a role already occupied by the Stiletto?

If anything, when you look at the range bonus as a damage bonus seeing as you can use next tier ammo at 13km or so, you can see that to keep up with the third guns of other platforms, a small increase in the bonus is needed, say 7.5% or it just needs a third gun mount option.

Really, the Raptor is not at all a bad ship for PvP, except anti-cepter duty owing to it's slowness. It's just not focused enough to do one particular task and it is weighed down by all those missile slots. I used to think cepters did too much damage, and should be brought down to the Stiletto's level, but now I'm not so sure. It's possible nothing would die if they didn't. Maybe the cepters all have a bit too much hp.

The Raptor is still a pretty good ship for killing other classes seeing as it makes use of those capless launchers. But it doesn't quite have the capacitor to run the 20km scram without backup. In my mind, three mids is the minimum for pvp, but you've got to have capacitor to support them. I believe all cepters should get a scrambling bonus, either to range, or to cap.

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.04.30 16:19:00 - [16]
 

i'd give the raptor a 4th mid but only 3 highs and leave it at that Very Happy

Tenchu Migoto
Posted - 2006.04.30 16:21:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Ithildin
I say:
High - 5 (3T 3L)
Mid - 2
Low - 4
PG - 40
CPU - 160
Mass - 1,000,000 KG (this is an effective 6% increase in agility and MWD/AB effectiveness)


To add to the conversation, this setup unfortunately wouldn't really work. All interceptors follow a 10 slot layout, so the 5th highslot would have to take away from something else.

And I see your thoughts about Roden, Creo, and Duvolle and I think they're interesting. Personally, I have always seen Roden as potential Rail-ships along side missiles. So far, I'm rather disappointed with their "missile intensive" designs...

I've always kinda pictured Creo as the logistic/tactical people, Duvolle as the close range people, and Roden as the mid-long range people, but lately, looking over new ships and old, I honestly don't know anymore...

Personally, I think the Ares could use more missiles... maybe a Crow layout of hardpoints for the Ares would work, you know, 3 Missiles, 2 Turrets, 4 highslots...

As for the Raptor, unfortunately, it's a Lai Dai ship, and Lai Dai's policy is to make ships hard to fit- I mean... to make them "balanced" ... I've never really liked "wishy washy" ships because they generally take VERY high level skills to fit properly, and with the Caldari's relatively tight capacitor, it's hard to keep turrets + tackle going at the same time... Maybe this ship should get some kind of capacitor bonus as opposed to that optimal range bonus... I personally have no thoughts on this ship, I generally use it as a Blaster/Rocket setup, so I never run into some of the problems (pg useage) that other people have...

Kamikaaazi
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.04.30 16:23:00 - [18]
 

yeah, fix ARSE and cRAPTOR

Jerick Ludhowe
Southern Cross Empire
Flying Dangerous
Posted - 2006.04.30 16:26:00 - [19]
 

All the Ares needs imo is a 10m3 drone bay and 5 or 6 more grid.

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2006.04.30 16:33:00 - [20]
 

FFS, inties shouldn't be goddamn DPS-driven machines.

most damage bonii on inties nee dto simply vanish, and get replaced with tackle bonuses. Even if it's things like +10% range to warp disrupters/jammers, or bonus range/effectiveness for webbers.

FFS I know inites irl are for hit and run, but in EVE they're tacklers, right now they're basicly the posterchildren for what all minmatar ships aspire to be (fast as balls with good dmg).Evil or Very Mad

3GG H34D
Caldari
Alts-R-Us
Posted - 2006.04.30 17:10:00 - [21]
 

Even if the raptor was given more usful slots its still very slow and handles like a brick compared to the other cepters, so any changes (unless to changes to agility) would still leave it behind other cepters.

I agree with the extra mid slot tho, caldari need those extra mids so i dont see why only the Minmatar stilleto should get 4. Changing to 3 high slots with the same turret/launcher ratio same as the stilleto also, some good ideas and would give caldari inty pilots a cost effective inty to fly..... before inevitable price hikes.

We could use another mwd/web -4 piont scrambling intercepter imo.

madaluap
Gallente
Anthrax Foundation
Posted - 2006.04.30 17:39:00 - [22]
 

allthough im not such a missile fan, especially for gallente, the ares IS and remains a missileboat, atleast make it usefull than so:

Ares MK2

CPU 150
PG 38

4/3/3 slot layout with 2 turret and 3 missile hardpoints
Fixed bonus (lvl 5 frig):
- 5% to Rof (thermal) light missile/rocket and
- 5% to missilespeed

Intybonus:
- 5% reduced signature
- 5% to explosion velocity missiles

seems good


madaluap
Gallente
Anthrax Foundation
Posted - 2006.04.30 17:39:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: madaluap on 30/04/2006 17:39:49
omfg wtf doublepost Neutral

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.04.30 18:06:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe
All the Ares needs imo is a 10m3 drone bay and 5 or 6 more grid.

Good suggestion. It's beyond me why the dps monster Taranis gets drones as well.

Zaintiraris
Caldari
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.04.30 18:28:00 - [25]
 

Raptor is in a good place as an inexpensive inty. If you made it any better, that place would disappear, like the dodo.

Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.04.30 20:16:00 - [26]
 

So, your idea is to keep it so that it still stinks, so it's cheap? Might a better idea be to make it better so that there's less reason to buy a crow, and therefore make the crow cheaper?

Tenchu Migoto
Posted - 2006.04.30 20:21:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Kai Lae
So, your idea is to keep it so that it still stinks, so it's cheap? Might a better idea be to make it better so that there's less reason to buy a crow, and therefore make the crow cheaper?


True enough, but for those of us who have the skills to pilot the Raptor, I'd call it an advantage Wink

fkingfurious
Posted - 2006.04.30 20:35:00 - [28]
 

Why dont we give up on this whole " Caldari have to have a missile and railboat" thing. Make the raptor 3/4/3 2 launcher 2 missile, increased cpu slightly decreased power. Instead of just making 2 identical cepters that use rails or missiles with bonuses that amount to the same thing make 2 genuinely different ships. Compared to a crow decreaeds offensives but sperior EWAR/tackiling capablilities.

Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.04.30 20:35:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Kai Lae on 30/04/2006 20:35:48
Originally by: Ithildin
That Raptor would certainly be used a lot, but it should be noted that the tracking bonus isn't appropriate on a ship that's meant to be long ranged. I fail to think of a better, more appropriate, bonus, though.

The Ares is still lacking. The reason for this is that more powergrid simply isn't going to help it. 2 mid slots is absolutely useless now a days since everyone seems to fit at least 2 stabs on their ships. What needs to be done is to pimp it's damage even more, or to change it to be just-another-interceptor with three mid slots.
Maya, 3-3-4 would make it usable, but not useful. Need more than that.




In the realm of high speed interceptor combat I think you need the tracking bonus to ensure you can hit the target with long range, slower tracking weapons. Plus, as noted, for a gunship nothing else really fits - you won't get fig ROF as the devs don't like frig ROF bonii. As for the ares, I've used one pretty extensively on my alt and I actually like it. Of course, you MUST have good missile skills to make use of it properly (which my alt does). The huge difference you instantly notice though in one is that you have no grid to fit things and usually a lot of CPU (compared to a claw for instance). The CPU is actually nice however as you can fit 2 damage mods easily if you wish; however the almost absolute need to fit a MAPC if you use anything but 75mm, electron blasters, or rocket launchers. When you compare this to a claw, which allows fittings pretty easily in the PG department and thus gets full low slot flexibility usage out of the 4th low slot, it is a very glaring deficiency. For the point about stabs, well that's eve today. Bluntly the best way to get them these days is not to use interceptors to warp scramble at all, but to use a interdictor instead (works great lasts long time). I've been using a web on mine when I work with a 'dictor. It's either that or pack hunting, which I sort of prefer anyway. Oh and to your later comment on the Onerios it would be more accurate to say that it's the ONLY ship in it's class that has a drone bay - which is smaller than the base ship hull. It's not unusual for roden ships to have drone bays, see the lachesis for instance (though it's interesting that the taranis has one and the Ares does not).

On another note I also thought of something interesting with regards to interceptors. Why are rockets so slow? As the short range weapon of frigates, you would think they'd be effective against all targets, but this isn't the case. Rockets are so slow that unless you have a interceptor webbed they're useless. He'll just orbit you with his MWD on and laugh. Doesn't this create something of a balance issue where ships that are fast (interceptors and interdictors especially) are immune to a weapon type as long as they can keep their speed up? I would have thought that CCP would have removed this with the missile change.

Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.04.30 20:37:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: fkingfurious
Why dont we give up on this whole " Caldari have to have a missile and railboat" thing. Make the raptor 3/4/3 2 launcher 2 missile, increased cpu slightly decreased power. Instead of just making 2 identical cepters that use rails or missiles with bonuses that amount to the same thing make 2 genuinely different ships. Compared to a crow decreaeds offensives but sperior EWAR/tackiling capablilities.


Reason I proposed the above is simply that's the way CCP seems to want it. The idea in this case IMO is fairly sound but the ship just lacks the things it needs to fill the concept that CCP has given it. The changes I propose would change that I believe.


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