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Annushka
Posted - 2006.04.14 13:10:00 - [31]
 

Please stop trying to quote "supply and demand" as a real life justification for the high prices of tech 2 in eve. IT DOESN'T WASH.

Theres two parts to supply and demand, yes demand is high thus prices are high that is correct. HOWEVER any market in such an inflated price situation, 700% mark ups on some, the supply adjusts, more manufacturers come along prices come down. Problem in eve is that the supply can't grow thus the liited number of BPO holders have a monopoly and a bottomless wallet as a result.

So until we get to reverse engineer stuff to get BPs or more are seeded to increase supply to reflect the increased demand PLEASE STOP WITH THE REAL WORLD ANALOGIES to justify what is basically massive opertunistic profitering on behalf of the present BPO holders.

Jet Collins
Dynamic Endeavors
Posted - 2006.04.14 13:19:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Jet Collins on 14/04/2006 13:29:22
I just refuse to buy one at those prices. However I do wish I had bought a vaga when I though the price was to high and was only at 80 mil :(

Oh and persoanlly I don't think there are more than a handfull of people buildignthe vaga right now because I hardly see them on the Market.

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.04.14 13:24:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Jet Collins
I just refuse to buy one at those prices.


and you don't. you are excercising your right as a consumer. well done Very Happy

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.04.14 13:25:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Annushka
Theres two parts to supply and demand, yes demand is high thus prices are high that is correct. HOWEVER any market in such an inflated price situation, 700% mark ups on some, the supply adjusts, more manufacturers come along prices come down. Problem in eve is that the supply can't grow thus the liited number of BPO holders have a monopoly and a bottomless wallet as a result.


read my diamond analogy of the first page

Jet Collins
Dynamic Endeavors
Posted - 2006.04.14 13:32:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Jet Collins on 14/04/2006 13:32:56
Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Jet Collins
I just refuse to buy one at those prices.


and you don't. you are excercising your right as a consumer. well done Very Happy


Thank you Very Happy I'm hoping more will follow to bring the price down... But I know I'm just kidding myself so I'll be buying other stuff I think is worth while until I feel it is worth to pay the price for a vaga.

Ohh I have a buy order open in metro for one vaga at 120mil Wink. Fill it if you like. I was feeling generous when I put it up for 120mil.

Krulla
Minmatar
Miner Protection Guild
Posted - 2006.04.14 13:33:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Iberi
Originally by: Kai Jyokoroi
Economics lesson 1 - supply and demand

If people weren't willing to pay 250 mil for a cerberus, they wouldn't sell.

As it is, there are people constantly wanting HACs and the BPOs are running at full speed most of the time.

People want them a lot
There is more demand than supply
Prices stay high
But they still sell
BPO holders don't care.

THE END

Learn economic, please. Supply and demand rules work only when market is free and highly competitive. In eve we do not have either free market or competitive market. Price on some rare items is just dictated by producers(please, do not speak about evil semi-mythical resellers ). You will pay as many as they want. Because you have no choice.

And I do not know why CCP must be happy, when in fact HACs are eliminated form the PvP.


Evil-Semi Mythical resellers?

When I see a HAC on market or escrow, going cheaper than the average at the time, I snatch it up and resell it for proper prices without thinking twice about it. I have done so in the past and I will continue to do so.

Woot! I'm a mythical creature!

Krulla
Minmatar
Miner Protection Guild
Posted - 2006.04.14 13:35:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Krulla on 14/04/2006 13:35:39
Also, noone is forcing you to fly HACs.

This IS a simple case of supply and demand.

Supply is limited to 10-20 every day. Probably hundreds of people want a HAC at any given point. Ergo, the competition for those few HACs on sale rise, so the prices rise. This might not even be the fault of the producers themselves, it's mostly, I belive, the fault of evil resellers like myself. Razz

Agent2 Holtze
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.04.14 14:41:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: HippoKing
blah blah blah
Tell me, if you had a BPO, would you honestly put them on the market at 100mil?


I know a guy selling zealots at 85m.

But like everywhere else, waiting lists are a million years because of resellers.

Annushka
Posted - 2006.04.14 15:26:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Annushka on 14/04/2006 15:27:53
Ok diamonds as an example. Go back to the time of cecil rhodes and DeBeers controlled the vast majority of diamond supply and could set the price unilaterally. As we see now with HAC prices. Whats happened subsequently is other people came along and started diamond mines/companies. Supply adjusted to the demand the price FELL. Eve has an in built monopoly for the holders of tech 2 BPs that cannot be challenged and hence no competion and hence supply cannot adjust as it should, That is the problem. When we can tear a HAC or a tech 2 component apart and reverse engineer it, I don't think eve has a patent system, the market will adjust to a sensible level as more BPs come into circulation.

At present I buy HACs as i play this game for Fun and they are the ships i enjoy flying most so i pay the cost doesn't mean i have to like it

Joe
Umbra Legion
Shadow Empire.
Posted - 2006.04.14 15:26:00 - [40]
 

'T2 Ships why Price Gouge the crap out of them'

Buyers Dictate Prices.

There is more and more demand from buyers each week.

Producers build HACs for their corp and alliance. They dont care if the public gets any at all. The Dev's never mentioned that Tech II bpo owners have any obligation to supply the general public.

When producers sell at below the market average price (dictated by the buplic) they end up with waiting lists (I have proofWink)

Did i miss anything, or is my T2 pricing spam ready to be pasted into the daily HAC whine threads?


ps. to the other forum warriors: using poor excuses like 'component prices and building technicality' is incrediably transparent, and may cuase valid pionts in your posts from being dismissed aswell.


Angelus X
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.04.14 16:11:00 - [41]
 

Personally, i can't help touching myself when I'm rolling around in my 200mil+ pimp HAC. Embarassed

Isidriel
DV8
Posted - 2006.04.14 17:07:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Isidriel on 14/04/2006 17:07:29
*yawn*

I'll hate myself in the morning, but I'll actually type more than my usual yawn I guess.

For those clamoring about the OMGTHISAINTANYTHINGLIKERLTHEPRICESAREBORKEDANDTHERESNOCOMPETITION in terms of supply/demand, think of it in terms of limited/finite total resources. Granted, technically, HAC production will probably never cease unless the components disappear...but the analogy I'm about to attempt somewhat holds true (tenuously) since the current HAC production model has hard caps.

Think of HACs as fossil fuels.

So, start looking for alternative energy sources. Battleships, battlecruisers and cruisers ftw?

-----

One last point. Maybe one of the reasons there's so much of an outcry is because players have a mistaken sense of entitlement. "What? I signed up for Eve so where's my 40 Moon Acres and a HAC?".

Yeah, that's not quite how the game works, kids.

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2006.04.14 17:23:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Pyhrria Venus
What the hell is wrong with you BPO holders? Produce Produce Produce.

Look at the price of HACs, they are rediculous, there is no reason for them to be so high. Prices on some HACs have gone up 400% over the last 5 months. Why? I know they cost more to produce now, but the profit margins are ******ed.

Perhaps if you reseed the HAC BPOs prices would come back down to battleship level prices and more people could afford them. For some the loss of a HAC is a loss of a week worth of work.

For those of us lucky enough to have high income ingame its just irritating to pay rediculous prices knowing that the ship has been through 4 or 5 middle men who all raise the price a bit.


Look ******.


Naga, TRUST, and all the other T2 ship producers are charging moderate prices for the ships. Its the ****ing reselling players that are marking up the market. If you want a fair price, put an order in with the big producing alliances, dont go to the market.

Valea Silpha
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2006.04.14 17:56:00 - [44]
 

The thing is that its all about perspective. 200mil may seem to be a lot for a HAC, but even for me (lil mission runner that i am) i wouldn't say its exessive.

Whatever is you your mechanism for money making, 200mil isn't that vast of target if your an established player.

The problem people seem to have is that they want a HAC because they are looking for the next one up from a BS, but they don't want to pay more than cost for them. The HAC is very much the half million pound aston martin of the eve world. You might have a poster of it, you might consider buying one if you become an eminantly powerful buisnessman. But you would never see people screaming about prices on their forums, regardless of limited production runs and waiting lists. Until you have the financial power to get in your pimpmobile of choice, your raven still ganks and still tanks and is still full insurable.

Ngwee
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.04.14 18:20:00 - [45]
 

Ill say this only once.

The T2 BPO lottery (20 per item) worked ok for a smaller player base , that was over a year and 60k new subscribers ago. The fact that theres +120k subscribers now seems to have escaped most people who have replied. (Captive market for sure - no option except for the lucky few)

The T2 system is now borked because a huge amount of players are skilled enough now to fly HACS and want one. The whole T2 system was based around a lot less players than are now in game. So what do CCP need to do?

1 / Nothing? (f**k you - unless you can afford the hundreds of millions and the wait for an HAC? )

2 / Reseeed inactive BPOs?

3 / Seed new BPOs (see above)?

4 / create a real chance to reverse engineer ships or BPCs?

Id hope anything except 1.

Anyone who tries to compare this situation with an RL economic model doesnt know squat about politics. Their company would be first in line to be privatized.


Cool

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.04.14 19:10:00 - [46]
 

Look, i know prices have gone up. What i don't understand is WHY shouldn't they be high?

Sarmaul
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.04.14 19:13:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Sarmaul on 14/04/2006 19:13:14
Originally by: Angelus X
Personally, i can't help touching myself when I'm rolling around in my 200mil+ pimp HAC. Embarassed


you forgot to mention that bob get their hacs for 50m each :)

Originally by: HippoKing
Look, i know prices have gone up. What i don't understand is WHY shouldn't they be high?


prahaps you should tell us why they SHOULD be so high?

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.04.14 19:24:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Ngwee
Ill say this only once.

The T2 BPO lottery (20 per item) worked ok for a smaller player base , that was over a year and 60k new subscribers ago. The fact that theres +120k subscribers now seems to have escaped most people who have replied. (Captive market for sure - no option except for the lucky few)

The T2 system is now borked because a huge amount of players are skilled enough now to fly HACS and want one. The whole T2 system was based around a lot less players than are now in game. So what do CCP need to do?

1 / Nothing? (f**k you - unless you can afford the hundreds of millions and the wait for an HAC? )

2 / Reseeed inactive BPOs?

3 / Seed new BPOs (see above)?

4 / create a real chance to reverse engineer ships or BPCs?

Id hope anything except 1.

Anyone who tries to compare this situation with an RL economic model doesnt know squat about politics. Their company would be first in line to be privatized.


Cool


Is this really fair to the producers that have built their economy on building and selling these ships? Prices will drop to nothing with your suggestions.

I think ccp want the market to work this way. At least ive never seen a single post where they say they are thinking about changing it.

Mack Dorgeans
Camelot Innovations
Posted - 2006.04.14 19:51:00 - [49]
 

If anyone doubts the power of supply and demand, check out the market for command ships. My corp has sold or traded 48 of the 50 Astartes we have produced so far. I won the BPO on Dec. 20, but had to learn Cruiser Construction 5. While I was doing that and also for a short time later when we had some overstock, I added points of ME to the BPO. Otherwise, it's been in constant production. We've done a good job at advertising and adding extras (T2 blasters and ammo) to our Astarte packages, so we've mostly been able to sell ships competitively. Some of my competitors haven't had so much success. Why?

Look at the prices on an Astarte or Eos compared to a Deimos or Ishtar. They are barely above the HAC prices, and in some cases, they are actually sold for LESS. This is because most of the BPOs have yet to be sold to alliances who are producing most ships for their own members, and also the relatively low percentage of the population who have been able to train up the skills needed to fly command ships.

The simple fact is the supply of HACs does not meet the demand, whereas the supply of command ships is presently greater than the demand, or at best roughly equal at times. A HAC costs maybe 40 mil to produce, tops, vs. up to 80 mil for a command ship. Yes, component prices are up as a result of the greater demand for them with all the new T2 BPOs that were seeded, but if that were the only factor, command ship prices would be much higher than HACs.

Another thing affecting command ship prices is the estimated value in the eyes of prospective buyers. Even though they cost twice as much to build as a HAC, they aren't deemed twice as good in battle.

As it stands now, HACs are the best combat ships for the skill time and cost, and unless that changes, or supply increases, I don't see prices going down anytime soon.

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.04.14 19:59:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: HippoKing
Look, i know prices have gone up. What i don't understand is WHY shouldn't they be high?


prahaps you should tell us why they SHOULD be so high?


tech 2 was never supposed to be common. it was supposed to be an edge, the elite. You pay a premium for that extra bit of performance. It should be advantage, not the standard.

I don't want to see everyone flying HACs, and i want it to be a kick in the nads to lose one

Violent Sky
Posted - 2006.04.14 20:49:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor
I think ccp want the market to work this way. At least ive never seen a single post where they say they are thinking about changing it.



From Oveur's Dev Blog from 10 Feb. 2006:
Quote:
However it's accomplished, the goal is to enable you to get limited rewards - Limited-Run Blueprint Copies - instead of waiting for some jackpot. It's your work and dedication which gets you results, not the draw of the lottery. I'm not saying that the lottery will vanish, though - some form of lottery will probably still be in play.


So they do intend to implement something, its just not slated for arrival until Kali.

Personally, and I have suggested this before, I think they should allow more than one factory slot to work from a Blueprint. Make it skill based. Hopefully it wouldn't totally nerf the HAC prices, would allow the BP holders to keep making ships and isk (if they could keep up supply of building materials) rather than just handing BPs off to peeps that might not be able to build from em anyway.

But until CCP does make a change, the only solution that I see for HAC prices, is for peeps to STOP BUYING THEM or don't complain about it.

And btw, there is no such thing as 'price gouging.' Something is worth what someone will pay for it.

Khatred
ReallyPissedOff
Guinea Pigs
Posted - 2006.04.14 21:03:00 - [52]
 

Keep up the whines and one day you'd be lucky to even spot one on market/escrow.

Sarmaul
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.04.14 21:08:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: HippoKing
Look, i know prices have gone up. What i don't understand is WHY shouldn't they be high?


prahaps you should tell us why they SHOULD be so high?


tech 2 was never supposed to be common. it was supposed to be an edge, the elite. You pay a premium for that extra bit of performance. It should be advantage, not the standard.

I don't want to see everyone flying HACs, and i want it to be a kick in the nads to lose one


prove it. afaik, you weren't even playing when t2 was introduced.

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.04.14 21:11:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Sarmaul
prove it. afaik, you weren't even playing when t2 was introduced.


well, thats true, but t2 wasn't meant to be common was the impression i always got.
as for proof... err... only 20 HAC BPOs per ship? LaughingLaughingLaughing

Audri Fisher
Caldari
Burning Bush Enterprises
Posted - 2006.04.14 21:45:00 - [55]
 

I think the basic issue is that the supply/demand thing is flawed.

In a true supply/demand system, manufactures can always add manufactuing capability. This is simply not true in Eve currently.

Zero35
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.04.14 22:01:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: franny
look, it's our weekly rant about HAC price... where the F is my horse?

ahh there it is
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


now thats funny

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2006.04.15 00:01:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Khatred
Keep up the whines and one day you'd be lucky to even spot one on market/escrow.


^^ the man has spoken. Dont want to annoy him further, else he makes all HACs selling from 400M and above...

Very Happy

MajorPMS
Posted - 2006.04.15 00:19:00 - [58]
 

I logged in one day to see OMG tech BCU !! on escrow. They didnt exist and then they did, BPO's handed out overnight , no game update or expansion , they just seeded them out of the blue randomly.

Why cant they do this with HAC BPO's , just release 2 of eatch of the HAC bpo . Wait a month or 2 , see where the prices fall . Back down to 100mil like they should be? ok stop , dont release anymore . Wow that was easy , ye ?

Honestly ive had both my cerbs blown up , havnt flown one in 2 months now. just cant afford it. This leaves me with alot of time I spent on cruiser V and the other skills , but I didnt want to fly the caracal and moa the last couple months after it took so long to do my skills for a "nice" ship .

I've resorted to scamming escrow to afford a new ship, Im not very good at it tho . EmbarassedCrying or Very sadugh

nahtoh
Caldari
Brotherhood of The Saltire
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2006.04.15 01:36:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Sarmaul
prove it. afaik, you weren't even playing when t2 was introduced.


well, thats true, but t2 wasn't meant to be common was the impression i always got.
as for proof... err... only 20 HAC BPOs per ship? LaughingLaughingLaughing


The game also increased in size faster than predictions...when HACs where first launched we were lucky to break 8-9k at peak hours...now what its 25 k at peak?

If 20 BPOs where considered enuff to keep them for those that put the time in whats the number of prints (BPOs&BPCs) to keep the original ratio intact?

Yes I fly HACs, and no I am not complaining about the price...

Jet Collins
Dynamic Endeavors
Posted - 2006.04.17 16:10:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Haniblecter Teg


Look ******.


Naga, TRUST, and all the other T2 ship producers are charging moderate prices for the ships. Its the ****ing reselling players that are marking up the market. If you want a fair price, put an order in with the big producing alliances, dont go to the market.


I tried contacting All the "listed" builder for a vaga for thier prices and if they had any other options avaiable and "no" one replied.
So my only option is the Market. I tried contacting them to get a ship but I'm not going to jump through hoops just so they can make more isk with little effort.


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