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Pyhrria Venus
Posted - 2006.04.14 08:24:00 - [1]
 

What the hell is wrong with you BPO holders? Produce Produce Produce.

Look at the price of HACs, they are rediculous, there is no reason for them to be so high. Prices on some HACs have gone up 400% over the last 5 months. Why? I know they cost more to produce now, but the profit margins are ******ed.

Perhaps if you reseed the HAC BPOs prices would come back down to battleship level prices and more people could afford them. For some the loss of a HAC is a loss of a week worth of work.

For those of us lucky enough to have high income ingame its just irritating to pay rediculous prices knowing that the ship has been through 4 or 5 middle men who all raise the price a bit.

sableye
principle of motion
Posted - 2006.04.14 08:26:00 - [2]
 

not all producerssell at them prices but its not producers fault anyway its demand if they sold them cheaper people would buy them up and re-sell for current prices, only way to make them cheaper is either people get less intrested int hem and demand lowers (not likely) or ccp release more bpo's there is not alot producers can do about either of those.

Kai Jyokoroi
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.04.14 08:32:00 - [3]
 

Economics lesson 1 - supply and demand

If people weren't willing to pay 250 mil for a cerberus, they wouldn't sell.

As it is, there are people constantly wanting HACs and the BPOs are running at full speed most of the time.

People want them a lot
There is more demand than supply
Prices stay high
But they still sell
BPO holders don't care.

THE END

Franny
Mentis Seorsum
Posted - 2006.04.14 08:34:00 - [4]
 

look, it's our weekly rant about HAC price... where the F is my horse?

ahh there it is
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.04.14 08:34:00 - [5]
 

if people are willing to pay >200mil for a HAC, they will do. If the producers sell them for less, other players will buy them and resell for the demand price. and if you can't meet the demand price, its going to be harder for you to get one.

Tell me, if you had a BPO, would you honestly put them on the market at 100mil?

David Hope
Gallente
Posted - 2006.04.14 08:36:00 - [6]
 

Mate, only about half of the ship bpos are producing ships for the general market. So you are talking about 10 BPOS per ship servicing the entire Eve community.

With good skills you will get about a HAC a day from a BPO. In other words, there are around *seventy* of each ship being built a week and put up on the open market. With numbers so small, are you really surprised that they go for so much?

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2006.04.14 08:38:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: HippoKing
if people are willing to pay >200mil for a HAC, they will do. If the producers sell them for less, other players will buy them and resell for the demand price. and if you can't meet the demand price, its going to be harder for you to get one.

Tell me, if you had a BPO, would you honestly put them on the market at 100mil?


No. I will put my Vagabonds at 400M in Market. Embarassed

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.04.14 08:41:00 - [8]
 

i'll build them for you!

Kel Shek
Posted - 2006.04.14 08:41:00 - [9]
 

do some people REALLY think that the people who have the BPO's aren't running them all the time? I can't imagine it'd just sit idle...

but does anyone NOT agree that there are not enough BPO's for many of these things?

Pyhrria Venus
Posted - 2006.04.14 08:50:00 - [10]
 

Ok so ya
1: I know all about supply/demand.
2: since yes people will pay those prices, including me cause i only fly HACs, thats simple math.
3: Obviously there is WAY WAY WAY more dmeand than supply so reseed the damn BPOs.

Is it that hard to understand CCP?

Pyhrria Venus
Posted - 2006.04.14 08:51:00 - [11]
 

And this will become more of a dialy rant than weekley now.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2006.04.14 08:53:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: HippoKing
i'll build them for you!


Hmmmm... let me think about it first. Wink

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2006.04.14 08:55:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Pyhrria Venus

2: since yes people will pay those prices, including me cause i only fly HACs, thats simple math.

Is it that hard to understand CCP?


There you go. You want I Win ship, you will have to pay for the I Win price. CCP knows this is a problem but can not do anything until Kali arrives. Pay or wait. Wink

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.04.14 09:07:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Pyhrria Venus
Ok so ya
1: I know all about supply/demand.
2: since yes people will pay those prices, including me cause i only fly HACs, thats simple math.
3: Obviously there is WAY WAY WAY more dmeand than supply so reseed the damn BPOs.

Is it that hard to understand CCP?


ok, explain this: what is wrong with the current prices? you are clearly willing to pay them, so the ship must be worth that much to you. Why does the price need to be dropped?

Pyhrria Venus
Posted - 2006.04.14 09:38:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Pyhrria Venus on 14/04/2006 09:42:54
Because I can make way more isk/hr than 99% of people i know who dont hold t2 bpos. I run 3 acounts to do so, people should not be forced to alt ***** to afford HACs easily imo.

Personally i think CCP is happy because so many people run multiple acounts now, making more real life money so prices in eve being inflated causing more people to use multiple acounts is what htey want.


an odd case of ingame economy guiding RL economy.

my .02


Isidriel
DV8
Posted - 2006.04.14 09:42:00 - [16]
 

*yawn*

Gronsak
Amarr
Posted - 2006.04.14 10:25:00 - [17]
 

although i love the current hac prices there is one thing that buges me greatly about the good t2 bpos like HACS

basicly, a cerb bpo. will get you more than 200mil isk a day. nearly 1.5bil isk a week. thats nearly 80bil isk a year!

80bil isk a year is just an i win button for any medium/small corp out there. gained by pure luck.

hac prices should stay, but there should be some way to spread out the isk made to more people. perhaps the new agent lottery system will permit the pooling of RP to get t2 bpos, where each RP you give gets you a bpc.

for example, if group A made a bid of 25mil RP for a HAC bpo, and i gave 0.25mil RP to that group. the bpo makes 365BPC a year so i should get (365*0.25)/25 about 3.65BPC of that HAC per year! that way, the bpo is in effect given out to many people. probably 60 or more infact. imo something like that would be much more fiar

it would keep current high prices , which is great, if hacs where 50mil everyone will be in hacs, but it will spread out the wealth of t2 to the general population!.

Tremain
Posted - 2006.04.14 10:44:00 - [18]
 

What is the complaint in this thread again? It seems to have switched every other post.

First it's the BPO holders price gouging, then people paying too much, then it's CCP's fault for not releasing BPOs and now it's unfair that the lottery is pure luck!

Does anyone care that someone makes 80b a year? I don't, I want that person to be me but it isn't going to happen so I get over it.

Why should CCP release more BPOs? They might well release more but nothing like enough to have an effect on prices - what if they released thousands of each BPO, so much so that the prices dropped to near T1 prices?

Hey - lets make it even simple, remove hacs and give t1 cruisers the same specs? Ah but now everyone has them so they're nothing special.

Simply fact is, there is too much isk in the system, ratting, missions, mining - it all makes too much isk once you get to a certain level which makes silly prices like these perfectly feasible.

Zekk Pacus
Caldari
RPS holdings
Posted - 2006.04.14 10:44:00 - [19]
 

I'm glad one of these threads popped up, because I've been thinking about it, and here come my 0.02iskies...

Number one: Basic supply. There are only 20 HAC BPOs for each ship type. Of those probably a quarter and in some cases up to a half are either inactive (player's gone on holiday or got bored and gone to play WoW or something) or being used solely by an alliance to keep their fleet up to strength. That means a very limited supply and more and more people can or will be able to fly HACs very soon. And after training cruiser for a month they want to fly one NOW, dammit!

Number two: Advanced supply. The HACs take a long time to produce and it's not a case of just cooking minerals - there are a lot of components that go into it. For starters you need the t1 ship, then you need the RAM, and then you need various t2 components that themselves require trade goods and/or moon minerals to build. If any part of this supply chain breaks down you can't produce a ship. Setting up a supply chain takes time, effort, and ISK.

Number three: Production limits. As I stated there are only a certain number of BPOs producing and they can't produce fast. It takes me 4 hours to produce a ferox but it'd take me a day and a half to produce a cerb. This means a max of 40 ships a week or so. With more and more people able to fly the things and more and more people able to lose them in combat we're still looking at a shrinking supply pool.

Number four: Market forces. If they drop the price, you'll buy the HACs, and re-sell them for the market price. This is simple economic theory. People will pay the price therefore why shouldn't someone charge the price. If the producers don't, someone else will.

The only way to fix all this is to wait for Kali with the BPCs and reverse engineering. For now, stop complaining and buy one from a production corp. There's a waiting list but the price is a lot lower (I have a Cerb on order from BIG and it cost me 67mill - not exactly a ripoff).

Iberi
Posted - 2006.04.14 10:49:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Kai Jyokoroi
Economics lesson 1 - supply and demand

If people weren't willing to pay 250 mil for a cerberus, they wouldn't sell.

As it is, there are people constantly wanting HACs and the BPOs are running at full speed most of the time.

People want them a lot
There is more demand than supply
Prices stay high
But they still sell
BPO holders don't care.

THE END

Learn economic, please. Supply and demand rules work only when market is free and highly competitive. In eve we do not have either free market or competitive market. Price on some rare items is just dictated by producers(please, do not speak about evil semi-mythical resellers ). You will pay as many as they want. Because you have no choice.

And I do not know why CCP must be happy, when in fact HACs are eliminated form the PvP.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2006.04.14 11:01:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Iberi
Originally by: Kai Jyokoroi
Economics lesson 1 - supply and demand

If people weren't willing to pay 250 mil for a cerberus, they wouldn't sell.

As it is, there are people constantly wanting HACs and the BPOs are running at full speed most of the time.

People want them a lot
There is more demand than supply
Prices stay high
But they still sell
BPO holders don't care.

THE END

Learn economic, please. Supply and demand rules work only when market is free and highly competitive. In eve we do not have either free market or competitive market. Price on some rare items is just dictated by producers(please, do not speak about evil semi-mythical resellers ). You will pay as many as they want. Because you have no choice.

And I do not know why CCP must be happy, when in fact HACs are eliminated form the PvP.



ROFL. No competition? Maybe. No free market? Not really, depends on how you define what a "free market" is.

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.04.14 11:11:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: HippoKing on 14/04/2006 11:14:06
Originally by: Iberi
Originally by: Kai Jyokoroi
Economics lesson 1 - supply and demand

If people weren't willing to pay 250 mil for a cerberus, they wouldn't sell.

As it is, there are people constantly wanting HACs and the BPOs are running at full speed most of the time.

People want them a lot
There is more demand than supply
Prices stay high
But they still sell
BPO holders don't care.

THE END

Learn economic, please. Supply and demand rules work only when market is free and highly competitive. In eve we do not have either free market or competitive market. Price on some rare items is just dictated by producers(please, do not speak about evil semi-mythical resellers ). You will pay as many as they want. Because you have no choice.

And I do not know why CCP must be happy, when in fact HACs are eliminated form the PvP.


what the **** are you takling about?
I know prices are dictated by resellers. I've seen stuff go on the market too low, and i've shifted it up and made myself 100mil in an hour for 2mins work. It happens. If you come to my region, and put HACs on the market at 100mil a piece, i'll make a fat profit by bumping them all up to 200mil. Assuming i get there first, which is unlikely. Resellers are not evil, and by no means are they mythical. They are just the ones who understand the market.

Our market is as free as a real market for semi-rare things. Take diamonds. They have a huge profit margin, because the supply is limited, and controlled. Why would the deBeers or whoever it is sell them for less than people will pay? it just eats their profits Confused. Economics is about making the most money possible, not making people happy. You extract the most money you can from your resources. You (the customer) pay as much as you will pay. If HACs hit 400mil there is no way i would fly them. At the moment i can afford to fly them. I know my limits on prices. The prices will hit the highest they can go where every unit sells.

You have all the choice in the world. You can buy, or you can not buy. That is all the choice you need.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.04.14 11:14:00 - [23]
 


The eve hac market can be compared to the swedish fuel market. Prices are quite equal no matter where you fuel your car. Anyone believe these companies actually compete against eachother? Because if you dont, you must also agree that there is no "free" market.

Its likely that the handful of hac producers in the game are working together instead of competing. And since supply has a production limit, even if one of them wanted to sell their ships cheaper, the competition would buy them and re-sell them.

CCP wants the hac market to work this way, and thats fine. Rich people need toys too.

Mikal Drey
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2006.04.14 11:15:00 - [24]
 

hey hey,

250mil for a hac is nothing to 300k for a Valkyrie II ! or 150k for a Warrior II !

or having to buy specific items off WEBSITES !!!!!!!!!!!!! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !! ! ! ! ! ! ! !! as the TII fashion seems to have become.

but yes if your willing to pay the high prices then you shouldnt complain. if you want a BPO then enter the lottery, if your lucky enough to have high income then maybe you should :

1) remember the little people
2) remember when isk was actually hard to come by and it took a few months to buy a BS or even mine for it.
3) EvE seems to be suffering from inflation average wallets are 50mil + and the market has adjusted accordingly
4) Player greed and the ever growing desire for wealth drives prices up :(


Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.04.14 11:20:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Mikal Drey
hey hey,

250mil for a hac is nothing to 300k for a Valkyrie II ! or 150k for a Warrior II !

or having to buy specific items off WEBSITES !!!!!!!!!!!!! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !! ! ! ! ! ! ! !! as the TII fashion seems to have become.

but yes if your willing to pay the high prices then you shouldnt complain. if you want a BPO then enter the lottery, if your lucky enough to have high income then maybe you should :

1) remember the little people
2) remember when isk was actually hard to come by and it took a few months to buy a BS or even mine for it.
3) EvE seems to be suffering from inflation average wallets are 50mil + and the market has adjusted accordingly
4) Player greed and the ever growing desire for wealth drives prices up :(




The richest corporations are also the most powerful corporations, because money equals power. Just as in the real world. Its not just about collecting money. Its about being a force to be reckoned with in the eve universe. I guess that is something most corporations want.

Rosalina Sarinna
Intergalactic Syndicate
Nulli Tertius
Posted - 2006.04.14 11:20:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Iberi
Originally by: Kai Jyokoroi
(please, do not speak about evil semi-mythical resellers ).


Sorry just have to pick you up on this... I am a reseller, and its not that uncommon. Reselling can make big ISK, especially with ships like this.

Hinik
Grumpy Old Farts
Gruntfuttocks
Posted - 2006.04.14 11:38:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Iberi
Originally by: Kai Jyokoroi
Economics lesson 1 - supply and demand

If people weren't willing to pay 250 mil for a cerberus, they wouldn't sell.

As it is, there are people constantly wanting HACs and the BPOs are running at full speed most of the time.

People want them a lot
There is more demand than supply
Prices stay high
But they still sell
BPO holders don't care.

THE END

Learn economic, please. Supply and demand rules work only when market is free and highly competitive. In eve we do not have either free market or competitive market. Price on some rare items is just dictated by producers(please, do not speak about evil semi-mythical resellers ). You will pay as many as they want. Because you have no choice.

And I do not know why CCP must be happy, when in fact HACs are eliminated form the PvP.


oh please! no choice? ofc you have a choice... you can pay and have a HAC... or you can not pay... and not have a HAC.

NOBODY is forcing ANYONE to pay the stupid prices (and they are stupid) like someone said, if you have the patience and fresight to buy from BIG or Naga before you can fly the damn thing, you wouldn't be forced to spent all your hard earned iskis on it when you CAN fly it...

I'm sorry if I sound annoyed... it's because I have seen this argument so many times, and you know what? it doesn't change a thing. not one iota.

funny, that.

Neon Genesis
GoonFleet
Posted - 2006.04.14 12:15:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Pyhrria Venus
Ok so ya
1: I know all about supply/demand.
2: since yes people will pay those prices, including me cause i only fly HACs, thats simple math.
3: Obviously there is WAY WAY WAY more dmeand than supply so reseed the damn BPOs.

Is it that hard to understand CCP?


Listen to this, because it's fact.

You can't expect the hand of god to implement more BPO's because the price has gone up. It's unrealistic.

You understand only the demand part of the equation, rather obviously. It dosn't go, 'people want more hac's and therefore cheaper prices, therefore seed more BPO's', it goes 'people want more hac's and therefore the producers raise the price because people are willing to pay'.

It's really, really, really, painfully simple. Can people just get it and stop posting ******ed opinion?

Fredbob
0utbreak
Posted - 2006.04.14 12:43:00 - [29]
 

The price on the market is fine, ppl are paying it then complaining, thats their problem..


But limited BPOs and increasing players? That's a problem. If it's "balanced" now, how is it balanced in x months time when the producers can't make any more than they can now, but there are 1000s more players training for ship x from said supplier? That'll lead to backlogs of months and months or even a year, constantly growing as more people place their orders. Which I can't see as healthy for anyone (well maybe the lottery winners)

More BPOs just puts the problem off a bit, I hope they can "fix" it somehow, not by making hacs ten a penny, not by lowering their build cost to tech1 and buildtime to 25mins, but by ensuring that the production scales somehow with the rest of the game.

The fact producers can sell a vaga at 1bil a peice isn't the main problem at all imo.

HippoKing
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.04.14 13:07:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Fredbob
The fact producers can sell a vaga at 1bil a peice isn't the main problem at all imo.


bull**** can they


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