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Hoshi Masurao
Posted - 2006.04.13 09:32:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Hoshi Masurao on 13/04/2006 10:16:29
First things first, I'm not here to flame. It's just up for discussion Smile

From what I've read, there seems to be little that can rival Projectiles as a genre of turret. Until I got stuck into the forums and did some digging, I was under the impression a Blasterthron was king of close-range, but this apparently is better by the AC Pest. Also, I know the 1400 Pest hits considerably harder at range than a Railthron or Tach'd Apoc (althou range is little shorter).

So whats the main disadvantage to Projectiles of either type? Tracking (not a problem when sniping), or is it just the large additional ammount of skills required to fly Minmatar effectively?

Like I said, I'm not here to burn anyone, just after some advice from experienced players of each Cool

Tassi
Amarr
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2006.04.13 09:36:00 - [2]
 

Projectiles are indeed overpowdered.

madaluap
Gallente
Anthrax Foundation
Posted - 2006.04.13 09:38:00 - [3]
 

please change your topic title, because a lot of people dont even read posts just titles (aka trolls).

projectiles have great alphastrike, not only think bs size please, because people are gonna flame that the tachyon apoc has nearly the same alphastrike as a tempest and more dps overtime.

basically what nearly everyone is going to tell is that howi suck and need a higher dmgmod. this is not true. in a real pvp-situation they hit so damn hard and with damage types that arent on the most hardtanked dmg list.

i used to think railthron was better (more range and higher dmg but still some alphastrike). but when fighting in a normal situation i was 40 k out with AM shot 1 volley and they warped out, tempest would kill em all.


Hoshi Masurao
Posted - 2006.04.13 09:47:00 - [4]
 

Thread name amended.

I know all three BS ranged weapons are similar enough in terms of DPS, but across the board, it seems that frig and cruiser sized projectiles weapons are still hard to compete with for outright damage.

Doesn't make their ships any pretty tbh Razz

Hoshi Masurao
Posted - 2006.04.13 10:20:00 - [5]
 

bump'themz Rolling Eyes

Cypherous
Minmatar
Lions of Judah Incorporated
Posted - 2006.04.13 10:21:00 - [6]
 

Well projectiles have the advantage of being able to choose which damage types they do, the apoc can only do em and thermal, thron can only do kinetic and thermal, the tempy on the other hand can do whatever damage type it wishes due to the way projectile ammo works, EMP being the best example as it does 3 damage types.

Hohenheim OfLight
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.04.13 10:24:00 - [7]
 

Yep but the 10 second reload time is ***** 10 shots then 10 secs of watting it's hell.

Cypherous
Minmatar
Lions of Judah Incorporated
Posted - 2006.04.13 10:27:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Cypherous on 13/04/2006 10:28:17
Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight
Yep but the 10 second reload time is ***** 10 shots then 10 secs of watting it's hell.


Actually i think its about 12-14 rounds per 1400mm but yeah the reload time sucks for arty's, but the damage potential of a 1400mm is so very high that the small ammo use is balanced, i've managed to wreck for 1600 with a T1 stock 1400mm so they can be very scarey Shocked

If the ammo is an issue use AC's they give you more shots :)

*edit*

Also consider that 1400's fire about every 10 seconds so after shooting 12 rounds you have taken 2 minutes by which time most combat is over already.

SIGMA KAPPA
Posted - 2006.04.13 10:32:00 - [9]
 

Well people got to decide what they like about tempest. If its the long range alpha strike, then you DO not have different damage types. You only got Tremor L's two types, theres nothing for long range strikes that comes even close.

Also alpha strike is only slightly higher, you really need to one shot you enemy. Add to this their low tracking and the fact that you only have actually one viable large artillery gun to choose from, as 1200 sucks, and the alleged superiority fails quite quickly.

Kard Fater
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2006.04.13 10:35:00 - [10]
 

Changing damage-types is not that big bonus for Minmatar like Caldari have on missiles, IMHO its nearly a joke, ppl usually just stick with EMP and T2 in PvP.

It would be good to have a "Fast Reload" skill for hybrid and projectile, where projectiles could have the larger bonus per level, or have a larger original clipsize on projectile guns. Twice as much would be nice.

Cypherous
Minmatar
Lions of Judah Incorporated
Posted - 2006.04.13 10:37:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Kard Fater
or have a larger original clipsize on projectile guns. Twice as much would be nice.



You realise that the large AC's have a clip size of about 130 rounds right, if you double that you double the damage that an AC tempy can do and you have to tank it twice as long before they have to reload.

Sun Ra
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2006.04.13 13:42:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Cypherous
Originally by: Kard Fater
or have a larger original clipsize on projectile guns. Twice as much would be nice.



You realise that the large AC's have a clip size of about 130 rounds right, if you double that you double the damage that an AC tempy can do and you have to tank it twice as long before they have to reload.


Not quite, 800mm can only hold what 41 emp ? dual 425 hold 110-130, 800s need a better clip size cos 40-50 rounds isnt alot for a gun that shoots every 2.7seconds Razz

Krulla
Minmatar
Miner Protection Guild
Posted - 2006.04.13 14:04:00 - [13]
 

Projectiles overpowered?

They have the least DPS of any turret.
They need to reload, constantly.
Autocannons need tons of ammo.
Howitzers have horrid tracking.

And for what? A good alpha strike (as has been said, the tachypoc has only a marginally smaller one but much higher DPS), and the ability to choose your damage types (However, all the tech II ammo only does exp and kin, so this is partially moot).

Overpowered? Sure.

Twin blade
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.04.13 14:13:00 - [14]
 

People forget 1 tiny fact about proj ammo.

EMP is a lot weaker than AM since you cover 3 damage type's so when you compair it on armor AM will do a lot more but on shield EMP will only deal about the same damage as AM.

Wizie
Minmatar
Jibba-Jabba
Posted - 2006.04.13 14:45:00 - [15]
 

Projectiles are not overpowered, nor overskilled (WTF?)


Infact, I would say the highest dmg dealing autocannons in all sizes are next to pointless. 200mm, 425mm and 800mm. The 1200 has no use ingame either.


Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.04.13 14:47:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Cypherous
Originally by: Kard Fater
or have a larger original clipsize on projectile guns. Twice as much would be nice.



You realise that the large AC's have a clip size of about 130 rounds right, if you double that you double the damage that an AC tempy can do and you have to tank it twice as long before they have to reload.


800mm/425mm/200mm autos have a clipsize that can carry 40 EMP shells.

the number doubles (?) if you fit depleted since DU is like half the size of EMP

Gronsak
Amarr
Posted - 2006.04.13 14:48:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Krulla
Projectiles overpowered?

They have the least DPS of any turret.
They need to reload, constantly.
Autocannons need tons of ammo.
Howitzers have horrid tracking.

Overpowered? Sure.


you forgot to tell us about

almost zero cap use on its guns, giving it the ability to tank more and the ability to sustain fire indefinitly. lasers and hybrids cant sustain fire, they run out of capExclamation

AC probably the easiest Guns to fit on any ship they have such low CPU and PG requirmentsExclamation

Ability to choose damage type, surely that is a MASSIVE advantage over lasers and hybridsExclamation

DPS is lower if u look at fights that last 400years, if u look at a fight lasting 30sec the DPS is comparable or greaterExclamation [and most fights dont last more than 2minsExclamation


Originally by: Twin blade
People forget 1 tiny fact about proj ammo.

EMP is a lot weaker than AM since you cover 3 damage type's so when you compair it on armor AM will do a lot more but on shield EMP will only deal about the same damage as AM.


EMP is 2dmg weaker than AM. but iron is 20DMG vs carbonized lead 22DMG

CL is 10% more damage that Iron
AM is 5% more dmg than EMP carbonized lead lExclamation


they are competitive guns.

Hoshi Masurao
Posted - 2006.04.13 15:21:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Hoshi Masurao on 13/04/2006 15:21:51
Originally by: Wizie
Projectiles are not overpowered, nor overskilled (WTF?)


Thanks for reading the OP ugh

Like I said, I'm not here to flame Minny or Projectiles, and all of what I said was based on reading of forums and people posting that AC is better than Blasters, and Art better than Rails. I have never flown Minny, nor had extensive PvP with any.

The reason for the thread was to find out whats what.

Harry Voyager
Jolly Codgers
Posted - 2006.04.13 15:32:00 - [19]
 

You also have to be aware at various time ATC have been better than blasters and artillery have been better than rails.

Right now ATC are pretty solid, simply because blasters have so many issues, however, Artillery aren't all that, due to very poor dps, poor tracking, and an only mediocre alpha strike capability*.

You need to also consider that a long time ago, the Tempest was the best battleship in the game, and a great many people trained its T1 skills to lvl 5 during that period. As such, we have a significant number of people still running about with godly Tempest skills, which tends to influence things just a bit.

Harry Voyager

*Alpha strike capability is determined by the ability of a ship to one-shot opposing vessels. Since all ships had their HP increased a few patches back, artillery have far less likelyhood of dealing enough damage to kill., which means most damage battles become about sustained dps.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.04.13 15:32:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Hoshi Masurao

The reason for the thread was to find out whats what.


Projectiles rule when it comes to damage/cap.
Very Happy

Malena
Shiva
Posted - 2006.04.13 15:32:00 - [21]
 

Being exclusively dedicated to projectiles, I can tell you that I love em. So right away, you know I am biased. They are NOT overpowered. The advantage for artilleries lies in the alpha strike, or did, pre-Blood.
The trouble with them is that they take a LOT of skillpoints to use effectively. If you are using 1400s, then you are obviously going from a long range, which means you need a lot of tracking skill, long range targetting (cause you can usually shoot farther than you can target) and a huge amount of support skills so you can fit everything you need to be effective.

The advantage for AC lies in the ROF and the quickly adjustable damage type. I am not a knife fighter, so my use of them isn't as extensive as arties. The disadvantage lies in the tracking (with the same number of skillpoints, the tracking advantage easily swings to blasters and lasers) and the amount of ammo used/needed. They don't exactly do uber damage, they just do a lot of adequate damage. The trouble is that the volume on the ammo is so high that you are just starting to really hammer something when you have to reload. And if you tried to alpha strike, every gun is likely reloading at the same time. Plus, the volume requires a LOT of cargo space, which doesn't make for extended missions away from a home, or long combat viability.
And again, ACs require a lot of skillpoints, not to fit, but to increase the optimals and tracking, etc.

Twilight Moon
Minmatar
Tague Corp
Posted - 2006.04.13 15:54:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Gronsak
Ability to choose damage type, surely that is a MASSIVE advantage over lasers and hybridsExclamation


Nah, its not really as good as it seems, because the different damage type ammos have different ranges, therefore its range that dictates ammo type usage, rather than they type of damage you want to deal.

Sure, you could constantly swap it out mid fight, but with a reload of 10 secs, and the fact you'll have to adjust your orbit distance and keep at range distance mid-fight...you'll be toasted in no time by your enemy.

Xelios
Minmatar
Broski Enterprises
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.04.13 15:55:00 - [23]
 

I'd not call them overpowered at all. An AC temp may be better than a blasterthron, but that's because blasters are in need of some lovin. AC's also chew through ammo like you wouldn't believe. The fact that projectiles do all 4 damage types isn't as great an advantage as it sounds, most shells do 3 damage types so at best you can get maybe 60% of the damage specialized to one type. It takes at least 10 seconds to switch ammo, and in practical use much longer since you have to do it manually on each gun. This makes switching types in the middle of a fight iffy at best.

Projectiles have the lowest DPS of all guns, artillery does lots of damage up front but its slow ROF keeps DPS below average. Good for sniping but not for mid range fights. Tracking also becomes a problem at close range, a tracking comp is almost a necessity (there was a time when projectiles were almost useless without at least 2 tracking comps and high skills).

Most of this is talking about large turrets, but some of it (like the low DPS) translates to all turret sizes.

Zysco
Petition Inc.
Posted - 2006.04.13 15:55:00 - [24]
 

Nerf Projectiles tbh.

Wizie
Minmatar
Jibba-Jabba
Posted - 2006.04.13 16:03:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Zysco
Nerf Projectiles tbh.


I'm so gonna create a nerf Domi thread now :/

Wait.. I just need Gal BS 5 now :p

Nerf the proj!!!

Xelios
Minmatar
Broski Enterprises
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.04.13 16:06:00 - [26]
 

Quote:
Ability to choose damage type, surely that is a MASSIVE advantage over lasers and hybrids

As Twilight Moon said no, it's not a massive advantage. Switching ammo types takes at least 20 seconds, considering it's done manually on each gun. Not something you want to do more than once in a fight, if at all.

Usually when you switch ammo it's to accomodate a different optimal range, not damage type. I almost never switch ammo just for the damage type, if you can stay within optimal of EMP then you always use that since it does very good damage to both shields and armor, if you can't stay in that optimal you switch ammo. That's how the "advantage" is used in most pvp.

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2006.04.13 16:22:00 - [27]
 

Mix rounds in the turrets:

I got two loaded with EMP, 4 with Fusion. Both cruise launchers have EXP ammo loaded.

I do more damage than a therm/EM tac or a railboat any day.

Sarmaul
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.04.13 16:51:00 - [28]
 

this thread: red rad
me: bull

Originally by: Hoshi Masurao
From what I've read, there seems to be little that can rival Projectiles as a genre of turret.


Blasters at close range, lasers (can't remember which the close-range ones are at long range.

Quote:
I was under the impression a Blasterthron was king of close-range


It is. However, it is the king of close-ranged close-ranged combat, i.e. it dominates the < 10km range. The tempest (and ergo autocannons) work best in the 18km+ range. If a blasterthron lands 5km from a autopest, the autopest is ****ed. 15km it could go either way, and 20km+ the blasterthron is ****ed.

Quote:
but this apparently is better by the AC Pest.


At closer ranges yes


Quote:
Also, I know the 1400 Pest hits considerably harder at range than a Railthron or Tach'd Apoc (althou range is little shorter).


Correct, however it has a massive 10 second rate of fire. Artillery are hit and run guns - big initial volley but very slow rate of fire. Rails and Tachs have a tracking, optimal range and damage per second advantage of artillery.

Quote:
So whats the main disadvantage to Projectiles of either type? Tracking (not a problem when sniping), or is it just the large additional ammount of skills required to fly Minmatar effectively?


You really need BS5 and Arti Spec 4 to get the most out of a an artillery tempest. tech1 guns are pitiful - you only get the huge damage mod with t2 and very good skills.

Disadvantages: Skills needed to be used effectivly (both), damage per second (all), tracking (all), optimal range (artillery, acs are always used in their falloff range), rate of fire (artillery), number of times you need to reload (all), etc.

I suggest you take a look at my thread called "Some Questions" for some "issues" with Minmatar and Projectiles :)

Solant
Minmatar
C A P S U L E
Posted - 2006.04.13 18:02:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Gronsak
Originally by: Krulla
Projectiles overpowered?

They have the least DPS of any turret.
They need to reload, constantly.
Autocannons need tons of ammo.
Howitzers have horrid tracking.

Overpowered? Sure.


you forgot to tell us about

almost zero cap use on its guns, giving it the ability to tank more and the ability to sustain fire indefinitly. lasers and hybrids cant sustain fire, they run out of capExclamation

AC probably the easiest Guns to fit on any ship they have such low CPU and PG requirmentsExclamation

Ability to choose damage type, surely that is a MASSIVE advantage over lasers and hybridsExclamation

DPS is lower if u look at fights that last 400years, if u look at a fight lasting 30sec the DPS is comparable or greaterExclamation [and most fights dont last more than 2minsExclamation




Have you ever used a tempest?
The fact that they can continue to shoot indefenitely is pretty moot considering fights rarely last long enough for it to be a factor. If you're in a tempest sniping, you only have a certain amount of volleys before you will have to gtfo, if your opponent is capable.
The low cpu/grid costs are a slight advantage, but really that is not a deciding factor on gun balance. If I could sacrifice more cpu and grid for a better gun that didn't take ages to reload and have weaksauce dps, I would. If you look at it that way, this is a disadvantage.
The ability to switch damage types is extremely limited, and as many people have already stated, if you're using t2 ammo, most pilots never even bother. I wouldn't call this a "massive" advantage... good try tho.
If you looked at a fight that lasted 30 seconds.. you would see the dps steadily drop every time the tempest has to reload. Yes, the burst dps is high, and obviously thats all 1400's really have going for them. The DPS is still lower, and you're a sitting duck while you reload.

I wouldn't necessarily say that projectiles are in need of a buff... maybe just a lateral change of some kind. Regardless, they certainly aren't overpowered.

Krulla
Minmatar
Miner Protection Guild
Posted - 2006.04.13 21:52:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Krulla on 13/04/2006 21:54:41
Originally by: Gronsak

almost zero cap use on its guns, giving it the ability to tank more and the ability to sustain fire indefinitly. lasers and hybrids cant sustain fire, they run out of capExclamation




Haha.

So you are telling me the Tempest tanks better than the Apoc? Yes, projectiles use close to zero cap, but the ships designed to use them have a LOT smaller capacitors to make up for it. Also, lasers use marginal cap when you count controlled bursts and the -50% cap useage from amarrian ships into it.
Also, ANY pilot which cannot sustain fire on a Megathron or Geddon with megapulses or rails without any cap mods needs to train his capacitor skills higher.

Originally by: Gronsak
AC probably the easiest Guns to fit on any ship they have such low CPU and PG requirmentsExclamation


Again, this is countered by the fact that the ships designed to use them. The Tempest has 15,5k base PG, whilst the apoc has 19,5k.

Originally by: Gronsak
Ability to choose damage type, surely that is a MASSIVE advantage over lasers and hybrids


Erm.... in PvP, a vast majority of ships have 50+% resistances to everything, so the ability to choose your damage type, while nifty, isn't that great. Also, you cannot really change your type mid-fight, or before the fight starts, as it takes 10 seconds to do so - 10 seconds you could have been shooting.

I'm not saying projectiles are underpowered - I think they are fine, but need more skills than hybrids or lasers to use effectively. I myself specialze in Gallentean ships.


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