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Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.04.10 08:15:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Ithildin on 10/04/2006 08:22:14
Originally by: Ginaz
If NOS is affected by sig radius, everything would be fine. A Heavy nos would hit a cruiser somewhat like a medium nos, but on 22km range. A Heavy nos would hit a frig like a small nos but on 20km.
Fit a target painter and it's more effective.

Would also nerf Domi a little bit....

Everybody will be happy with a change like that and so we just have wcs left. Remove wcs from the game YARRRR!!

Actually, a Heavy Nos would hit a (edit, looked a bit closer) large cruiser (read: Gallente HAC or Caldari cruiser) like a small nos at 20km. Three Heavy Nos would hit a frig like a named small nos at 20km.

Princess Beefcurtains
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2006.04.10 08:16:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Princess Beefcurtains
Edited by: Princess Beefcurtains on 10/04/2006 07:47:26

I just wanted to add that things are not being changed now because they are new and unbalanced. NOS setups have been around as long as i can remember and the only reason they are being seen more is because, hey, guess what, there are a lot more players than there used to be and also people share setups. As soo n as a setup is discovered that works well it is nerfed and another setup then comes along that seems more ubar than the rest, so it is nerfed and so forth.
It will never end.

WELCOME TO THE GREAT CIRCLE OF NERF Laughing



I've heard this alot before but i'm not convinced it is true yet. For example compare rails and beam lasers. Is the balance perfect? No. Is it good enough? yes. Balance is possible to achieve if the devs know what they are doing. When was the last major nerf to a module? The missile "nerf" maybe, but that was more of a whole shift in balance paradigms. So while it did result in missiles becoming less than they were, it wasn't really a nerf. I'm actually seeing more buffs than nerfs. Awhile back blasters and autos got a buff, ship hp got a buff, etc. I'd say we are looking not so much at a circle of nerfs as a rise of buffs. Somthing gets buffed, then everything else gets slightly buffed to stay competetive. But somthing else gets buffed to much and everything else needs to get buffed more. This isn't a great situation either but it's better than a circle of nerfs.

EDIT: Thought of another example of a very well balanced game: Starcraft. You can only really name a couple balance flaws in it, and none of them are really game breaking.


The last nerf i can remember majorly affecting me was the stacking nerf which really was a nerf. Stacking nerf made it so that for exaple a ship with 3 sensor boosters and 3 tracking comps (or 2 tracking comps 2 tracking enhancer) is maxxed and almost completely unaffected by remote tracking links and sensor boosters which put a total cap on locking time and turret tracking which can only be broken by using ubermods. This made remote boosting pointless as you can now max a temps range with your own fitting.
Balancing in such a complex game is something that has so far taken almost 3 years from release and it seems from all the 'nerf' posts as if the game is, in the view of players at least, becoming more unbalanced (esp with the minmatar carrier/mothership for example). I hope I am wrong when i say I think it will go on for a long time.
Without EVEs problemns and imbalance i think a lot of people would quit lol, kinda makes it interesing. a lot of people live on whine + cheese.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.04.10 08:18:00 - [63]
 


Do we really want a pvp game where energy drain is the best offensive measure in the game? Anybody who fits nos in all the high slots will win vs somebody who tries to use turrets/launchers and fits no nos. Dominix with MWD and nos in all the high slots cant really lose once he gets in nos range vs another ship that tries to use turrets/launchers for offense.

Nos should have stacking penalties.

Ginaz
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.04.10 08:19:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Ginaz
If NOS is affected by sig radius, everything would be fine. A Heavy nos would hit a cruiser somewhat like a medium nos, but on 22km range. A Heavy nos would hit a frig like a small nos but on 20km.
Fit a target painter and it's more effective.

Would also nerf Domi a little bit....

Everybody will be happy with a change like that and so we just have wcs left. Remove wcs from the game YARRRR!!

Actually, a Heavy Nos would hit a smaller cruiser (read: Minmatar) like a small nos at 20km. Three Heavy Nos would hit a frig like a named small nos at 20km.

do what's wrong with it?
The Sig Resolution is up to the devteam and target painters will help alot. And Raven pilots with so poor poor because mid slot target painter should have a target painter anyways

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.04.10 08:20:00 - [65]
 

I'm gonna try and pull this one before Necro does.

But with the stacking nerf, 2 or 3 modules of the same kind got a buff while 4 modules stayed more or less the same as prior to the revamp. It was only excessive use (5+ modules) that got nerfed, and that meant remote boosters and complete gank setups. That remote boosting went away might've been a bit sad, but it's mostly a good sort of thing on paper in game it's slightly different a situation. Snipers aren't cute.

Twilight Moon
Minmatar
Tague Corp
Posted - 2006.04.10 08:20:00 - [66]
 

What exactly is stopping the OP from just staying outside NOS range? That is the best defence against it. If you dont want to be affected by NOS, dont fly that close.

No-one is forcing anyone to fit NOS, it just happens to be particularly effective at close range.

LUKEC
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.04.10 08:21:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor

Do we really want a pvp game where energy drain is the best offensive measure in the game? Anybody who fits nos in all the high slots will win vs somebody who tries to use turrets/launchers and fits no nos. Dominix with MWD and nos in all the high slots cant really lose once he gets in nos range vs another ship that tries to use turrets/launchers for offense.

Nos should have stacking penalties.



I invite you to try your uber setup on my ishtar. Or raven... Nosf won't kill anything.

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.04.10 08:24:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Twilight Moon
What exactly is stopping the OP from just staying outside NOS range?

Scrambling and webification range. Also, in non-Caldari frigates you can't do damage past 20km (well, maybe with Spike or Iron, but the prior nerfs speed so you don't want that and the latter does nearly no damage)

Princess Beefcurtains
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2006.04.10 08:25:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Ithildin
I'm gonna try and pull this one before Necro does.

But with the stacking nerf, 2 or 3 modules of the same kind got a buff while 4 modules stayed more or less the same as prior to the revamp. It was only excessive use (5+ modules) that got nerfed, and that meant remote boosters and complete gank setups. That remote boosting went away might've been a bit sad, but it's mostly a good sort of thing on paper in game it's slightly different a situation. Snipers aren't cute.


Heck I'm not saying it was a bad thing at all that it was ner***ed, just replying to the Q about that last nerf i can remember was. I think it was probably a wise nerf and accept it completely, just made me adapt.
Oh, and I'm quite cute when I have 1400s fitted Very Happy

Bazman
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2006.04.10 08:36:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Bazman on 10/04/2006 08:46:31
Originally by: kessah
Ive heard that excuse ALOT and in fairness its complete crap.



Had to respond to this tbh;

Drones are an absolutely rubbish defence, any frigate will just pop them first, even the light drones. Nosferatu's combined with a web is currently the *only* surefire defense against frigates attacking your battleship, and with that defense you still can't kill them without letting out your drones and using small guns.

Its the nosferatu-web-drones combination that makes frigate pilots cry, and i find it wholelly appropriate that a battleship that fits all of these things should be able to fend off a couple of frigates. He's still screwed if he's attacked by 3 or more competent frigate pilots anyway.

/me reads the rest of the thread now :P

edit: looks like I'm repeating some stuff in the pro-nos camp anyway, meh

Tetovo
Caldari
TwinSuns Industries
Tacitum Hostis
Posted - 2006.04.10 08:45:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Twilight Moon
What exactly is stopping the OP from just staying outside NOS range?

Scrambling and webification range. Also, in non-Caldari frigates you can't do damage past 20km (well, maybe with Spike or Iron, but the prior nerfs speed so you don't want that and the latter does nearly no damage)
Javelin is the one with the speed penalty, not spike.

Xeaon
Minmatar
Lollipops for Rancors
REIGN Alliance
Posted - 2006.04.10 09:03:00 - [72]
 

NOS are fine, you just need to learn howto counter them. Just like every other mod in the game Rolling Eyes

IDesert FoxI
Unknown-Heroes
Night Sky Alliance
Posted - 2006.04.10 09:07:00 - [73]
 

NOS are fine as they are. They are the only good defence for a bs against smaller targets. Why should a ship that costs a 5th or even a 10th of that of a bs, be able to cripple it?

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.04.10 09:37:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: IDesert FoxI
They are the only good defence for a bs against smaller targets.


This is what i dont like. Eve right now makes it quite hard for larger ships to hit smaller ships with their primary weapon systems. So everybody uses nos to counteract this. What is the point again?

Mercyless Ming
Posted - 2006.04.10 09:42:00 - [75]
 

You know, I almost bought the "This isn't a moan thread" line until I remembered that it was not only complaining about a mod in the game that someone doesn't like and therefore wants changed, but MOST IMPORTANTLY the thread title is directly titled at the devs and NOT the players for a response.

Either deal with it, or cancel your account. Since you obviously will not do the latter, I suggest you start training up the former.

KillmAll187
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.04.10 11:04:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor

Do we really want a pvp game where energy drain is the best offensive measure in the game? Anybody who fits nos in all the high slots will win vs somebody who tries to use turrets/launchers and fits no nos. Dominix with MWD and nos in all the high slots cant really lose once he gets in nos range vs another ship that tries to use turrets/launchers for offense.

Nos should have stacking penalties.




Well lets just see how many non dominix flying morons there are here. GFL fitting 6 heavy nosses at 2k grid per. And ya take a mwd'ing 4 RCU II Domi vs megat with some cap boosters/siege raven/autotempest/ and see what happens.

Aloysius Knight
Minmatar
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.04.10 11:24:00 - [77]
 

god im sick of all these nos whines

can't you people get over it?

its not nos that owns you

its the nos + web+ drones + guns +missiles that does!

wahts next stop bs from using more then 1 web cos its owning your firg too hard Rolling Eyes

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2006.04.10 11:30:00 - [78]
 

Wow... another NOS whine and no Maya Rkell yet? Or is Necrologic Mayas alt? He sure smokes the same stuff she does...

Though one idea for a nos nerf I read in here actually appeals to me a lot, and that is the stacking penalty. Would fix the nos in the area where I see a problem (predominant 'weapon' in BB PvP) and leave it more or less unchanged in the area where I think it needs to stay as is (frig/HAC defense for lowsec mission runners/NPCers).

Sun Ra
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2006.04.10 11:49:00 - [79]
 

Only time bs fitted with nos is a threat to small ships is when theres only 1/2 small ships attacking it, which is the way it should be, if you wanna take down a bs in inties you should have to do it in packs

Jessica Immensea
Posted - 2006.04.10 11:59:00 - [80]
 

Yes, I am lazy to read the whole topic. So I'm not sure if this ever came up or not.

As it is, NOS drain a certain ammout of cap per second, which is quite steady. What would be if a NOS increased the targets cap recharge time (zapping onto the recharge of the power core of the other ship) and decreased yours by the same ammount. This, if I am not missing anything would make NOS more dependant on ship class it's used against. For example, take the frigate and the battleship case. Battleship increases the recharge time of the frigate cap by, say, 50% (with 2 large nos working). The number of seconds the recharge time of the frigate is increased by is subtracted from the recharge time of a battleship. Those 20-30 seconds wouldn't help you a lot, would they? And the frigate would still have cap to work with.

[posted with my alt]

pardux
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.04.10 12:02:00 - [81]
 

no.

nos is balanced tbh =|

Eleis Machuron
Posted - 2006.04.10 12:25:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Drones aren't the best defence. Even 2 half-brained inty pilots will kill them while holding BS in place and then proceed to chew said BS. No nos=BS dead everytime 2+ intys gets to them.


Where's the BS pilot's backup then? Aren't I hearing every day that teamwork is the 'win button' in Eve?

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.04.10 12:50:00 - [83]
 

I'm begining to think that nos shouldn't affect cap directly at all, but instead mess up your cap regeneration. That'd change its role in combat, true, but it'd still be useful and it'd made neuts even more useful (you'd use a mix of them), plus it'd made cap injectors a REAL counter to nos.


Anyway, if we keep the current system.. for sig radius, if you use that idea you'd want a factor of roughly X^4 in there (ask Naughty Boy about it).


Necrologic, they're a highslot energy transfer module :P

Iroquois
Posted - 2006.04.10 12:58:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: kessah
Edited by: kessah on 10/04/2006 03:52:01
rawr starting to really hate nos now. combat is becoming so predictable!

CCP sort it, please!


This thread is ******ed, nerf Nos based on one guy's opinion?

LOL. Laughing

Nos works fine, in fact I'm pretty sure Nos is the same for everyone which makes it balanced and equal.

Can't ask for much more than that.

kessah
Blood Blind
Posted - 2006.04.10 14:19:00 - [85]
 

Wow good lots of replies.

Necrologic Im glad you took the time to write all that. and i feel that the ones with the constructive feedback to offer clearly shows they read it all. Becus in fairness that was alot better than my argument.

Its clear to say tho imho that people in bs that say drones are the bs primary defence agaisnt frigs clearly havnt discovered nos drones *which do not benifit the host ship* ew drones, TP drones and tracking disrupting drones (the latter two not so useful)

SO people that complain about drones being crap vs frigs YOU find better ways to counter frigs and not the other way around.

CCP has giving bs pilots alot with drones.

Read all of Necrologic post the guy *is* making sense and my arugument altho not thought out no where as well and his is based on a real unbalance in the game. Thank again for you contribution Necrologic.


kessah
Blood Blind
Posted - 2006.04.10 14:43:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Masta Killa
I rarely see extremely dumb ideas in this forum but this is one of them.

If you wanna lose your bs to a punisher then feel free to, just don't drag us into it.


If you cant tank a punisher in a bs with out nos which im taking it happend to you? you shouldnt be flying one. Id say the mose idiotic post on these forums was when people wanted a boost to the zealot.

drones will kill any t1 frigs, be it light medium or heavy.

Ceptors either require nos drones or lights your able to split them into groups and jam multiple targets.

So either post constructivly burn eden, or bugger off.

Necrologic
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.04.10 16:28:00 - [87]
 

Quote:
The last nerf i can remember majorly affecting me was the stacking nerf which really was a nerf. Stacking nerf made it so that for exaple a ship with 3 sensor boosters and 3 tracking comps (or 2 tracking comps 2 tracking enhancer) is maxxed and almost completely unaffected by remote tracking links and sensor boosters which put a total cap on locking time and turret tracking which can only be broken by using ubermods. This made remote boosting pointless as you can now max a temps range with your own fitting.
Balancing in such a complex game is something that has so far taken almost 3 years from release and it seems from all the 'nerf' posts as if the game is, in the view of players at least, becoming more unbalanced (esp with the minmatar carrier/mothership for example). I hope I am wrong when i say I think it will go on for a long time.
Without EVEs problemns and imbalance i think a lot of people would quit lol, kinda makes it interesing. a lot of people live on whine + cheese.


Yeah, thorax and the stacking penalty were dfinatly nerfs, but i think both were needed and neither were over nerfed.
I agree on the whine + cheese thing, heheh.

Quote:
What exactly is stopping the OP from just staying outside NOS range? That is the best defence against it. If you dont want to be affected by NOS, dont fly that close.

No-one is forcing anyone to fit NOS, it just happens to be particularly effective at close range.


I wish there was a way to force people to read the whole thread...This is covered on the first page.

Quote:
NOS are fine, you just need to learn howto counter them. Just like every other mod in the game


You have to back this up for anybody to seriously consider it. Please do and i can give you a full response.

Quote:
NOS are fine as they are. They are the only good defence for a bs against smaller targets. Why should a ship that costs a 5th or even a 10th of that of a bs, be able to cripple it?


Read the rest of the thread.

Quote:
You know, I almost bought the "This isn't a moan thread" line until I remembered that it was not only complaining about a mod in the game that someone doesn't like and therefore wants changed, but MOST IMPORTANTLY the thread title is directly titled at the devs and NOT the players for a response.

Either deal with it, or cancel your account. Since you obviously will not do the latter, I suggest you start training up the former.


We are dealing. Getting it changed is how we are dealing with it.

Quote:
god im sick of all these nos whines

can't you people get over it?

its not nos that owns you

its the nos + web+ drones + guns +missiles that does!

wahts next stop bs from using more then 1 web cos its owning your firg too hard


here you go...

Quote:
-Nos are overpowered. They are not a win button as has been previously stated, but they are overpowered. They are overpowered because they take no skills to use (sp and player) and have 100% predictable results. They are the only offensive module in the game that behaves this way.


Quote:
Wow... another NOS whine and no Maya Rkell yet? Or is Necrologic Mayas alt? He sure smokes the same stuff she does...


I think i started the first major thread asking for a nos change but correct me if i am wrong. Maya and I agree on many things but overall our ideas and style are different.

Quote:
Only time bs fitted with nos is a threat to small ships is when theres only 1/2 small ships attacking it, which is the way it should be, if you wanna take down a bs in inties you should have to do it in packs


Here you go...

Quote:
-Nos are overpowered. They are not a win button as has been previously stated, but they are overpowered. They are overpowered because they take no skills to use (sp and player) and have 100% predictable results. They are the only offensive module in the game that behaves this way.

Necrologic
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.04.10 16:34:00 - [88]
 

Quote:
Yes, I am lazy to read the whole topic. So I'm not sure if this ever came up or not.

As it is, NOS drain a certain ammout of cap per second, which is quite steady. What would be if a NOS increased the targets cap recharge time (zapping onto the recharge of the power core of the other ship) and decreased yours by the same ammount. This, if I am not missing anything would make NOS more dependant on ship class it's used against. For example, take the frigate and the battleship case. Battleship increases the recharge time of the frigate cap by, say, 50% (with 2 large nos working). The number of seconds the recharge time of the frigate is increased by is subtracted from the recharge time of a battleship. Those 20-30 seconds wouldn't help you a lot, would they? And the frigate would still have cap to work with.

[posted with my alt]


Quote:
I'm begining to think that nos shouldn't affect cap directly at all, but instead mess up your cap regeneration. That'd change its role in combat, true, but it'd still be useful and it'd made neuts even more useful (you'd use a mix of them), plus it'd made cap injectors a REAL counter to nos.


This is another solution that would work.

Quote:
This thread is ******ed, nerf Nos based on one guy's opinion?

LOL.

Nos works fine, in fact I'm pretty sure Nos is the same for everyone which makes it balanced and equal.

Can't ask for much more than that.


There are atleast five people in this thread agreeing that nos should be changed. The number of people disagreeing is greater, but they have yet to come up with any real argument for keeping nos how it is except for "it's fine, noobs".

Quote:
Wow good lots of replies.

Necrologic Im glad you took the time to write all that. and i feel that the ones with the constructive feedback to offer clearly shows they read it all. Becus in fairness that was alot better than my argument.

Its clear to say tho imho that people in bs that say drones are the bs primary defence agaisnt frigs clearly havnt discovered nos drones *which do not benifit the host ship* ew drones, TP drones and tracking disrupting drones (the latter two not so useful)

SO people that complain about drones being crap vs frigs YOU find better ways to counter frigs and not the other way around.

CCP has giving bs pilots alot with drones.

Read all of Necrologic post the guy *is* making sense and my arugument altho not thought out no where as well and his is based on a real unbalance in the game. Thank again for you contribution Necrologic.


Thank you Kessah, i'm glad my efforts are appreciated.

Excellent point about the drones too. Your drones arn't enough to defend you? Go make your own thread and campaign for a drone buff. Just because one thing may be broken isn't a reason not to fix another.

Mercyless Ming
Posted - 2006.04.10 16:38:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Necrologic
There are atleast five people in this thread agreeing that nos should be changed. The number of people disagreeing is greater, but they have yet to come up with any real argument for keeping nos how it is except for "it's fine, noobs".


Maybye the hint was too subtle........

Because Nos IS fine and you are whiny brats.

Necrologic
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.04.10 16:46:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Necrologic on 10/04/2006 16:46:38
Originally by: Mercyless Ming
Originally by: Necrologic
There are atleast five people in this thread agreeing that nos should be changed. The number of people disagreeing is greater, but they have yet to come up with any real argument for keeping nos how it is except for "it's fine, noobs".


Maybye the hint was too subtle........

Because Nos IS fine and you are whiny brats.


If you'd been polite and presented some logical argument to back up your claims you could have been onto somthing. But instead you flamed and now look like an ass. Take it somwhere else, this isn't a fight you can win through insults.


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